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It's not a false equivalence, considering the Smash world is literally never portrayed as being 100% purely irrelevant to MH. It's literally an alternate universe.
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Problem with current Smash Bros stats (mostly involving Master Hand)
- Thread starter DetectiVE899
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That is because humans aren't portrayed like that. In SSB, MH and CH are always portrayed as powerful, godly entities. And they also said that he is something like a God of SSB verse.
Strictly speaking, MH and CH aren't really "portrayed" as that. Their feats are minor-scale reality warping, only having vague trophy statements giving them a godly portrayal.
Their description says otherwise.
Strictly speaking, MH and CH aren't really "portrayed" as that. Their feats are minor-scale reality warping, only having vague trophy statements giving them a godly portrayal.
Their description says otherwise.
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Strictly speaking, MH and CH aren't really "portrayed" as that. Their feats are minor-scale reality warping, only having vague trophy statements giving them a godly portrayal.
Ignore lore portrayals? What? Are we also going to ignore him being directly called God and the direct statement we have now that he created the Smash verse?
Ignore lore portrayals? What? Are we also going to ignore him being directly called God and the direct statement we have now that he created the Smash verse?
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Look
As far as I know (It had been a long time ever since I played Subspace Emissary because my Wii was sold without my knowledge)
Dialga and Palkia are somewhat low 2-C because they are supposedly entities of Time and Space on Smash verse, Arceus is higher than they because is Arceus, Arceus is seen as a toy to Master Hand and Crazy Hand, and Master Hand is lower than Tabuu.
As far as I know (It had been a long time ever since I played Subspace Emissary because my Wii was sold without my knowledge)
Dialga and Palkia are somewhat low 2-C because they are supposedly entities of Time and Space on Smash verse, Arceus is higher than they because is Arceus, Arceus is seen as a toy to Master Hand and Crazy Hand, and Master Hand is lower than Tabuu.
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Not necessarily what I was talking about. The time into motion thing is semantics imo, as assuming that time was created frozen until Dialga came along is very silly. However, I have never not seen creating time to not be a Low 2-C feat.Kepekley23 said:
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@Cal
What is actually implied is that Dialga unfroze a frozen time by appearing, which is not Low 2-C. It's not semantics, it's his feat being underwhelming.
What is actually implied is that Dialga unfroze a frozen time by appearing, which is not Low 2-C. It's not semantics, it's his feat being underwhelming.
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Sounds like extrapolation on your part. That's like, definitely not what's meant to be got across, at all. One, if Dialga's supposed to be time, how could it exist without him? Two, it's silly to take that assumption to mean that someone or something else created time solely for it to be frozen.
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ÒâòÒéíÒéñÒâêÒü«ÒüéÒéïÒâòÒéúÒé«ÒâÑÒéóÒü¿õ©Çµêªõ║ñÒüêÒéïÒü«ÒüîÕû£Òü│ÒéëÒüùÒüäÒÇé- It says that he loves figures and it's hobby. He loves intertwining with them. It's just for fun.Kepekley23 said:
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I think there is a statement of him holding back against them, as well.
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So time is just randomly frozen in place by some unknown guy and Smash Dialga comes around and unfreezes it?
No offense but that seems incredibly silly.
No offense but that seems incredibly silly.
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> Sounds like extrapolation on your part
More like what is stated, without adding or taking away anything.
> That's like, definitely not what's meant to be got across, at all.
Irrelevant. They stated Dialga's birth made time start moving and then said it was set in motion. Both of these imply a frozen time being unfrozen. Whether that was their intention or not is irrelevant because they have to live with what they established.
> One, if Dialga's supposed to be time, how could it exist without him?
It's directly stated that Dialga being time is just an hyperbolic allegory.
"Time began to move from the moment when Dialga was born, In other words, in a sense, Dialga is time."
> Two, it's silly to take that assumption to mean that someone or something else created time solely for it to be frozen.
No. It just means time always existed. Saying otherwise requires unavailable proof.
More like what is stated, without adding or taking away anything.
> That's like, definitely not what's meant to be got across, at all.
Irrelevant. They stated Dialga's birth made time start moving and then said it was set in motion. Both of these imply a frozen time being unfrozen. Whether that was their intention or not is irrelevant because they have to live with what they established.
> One, if Dialga's supposed to be time, how could it exist without him?
It's directly stated that Dialga being time is just an hyperbolic allegory.
"Time began to move from the moment when Dialga was born, In other words, in a sense, Dialga is time."
> Two, it's silly to take that assumption to mean that someone or something else created time solely for it to be frozen.
No. It just means time always existed. Saying otherwise requires unavailable proof.
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Master Hand Trophy Info
Melee: Trophy #159: The Master Hand awaits anyone who survives the long difficult road to the Final Destination. This symbolic link between the real world and the imaginary battlefields of Super Smash Bros. Melee is quite a handful in battle, and just because he wears a white glove doesn't mean he fights clean. Be ready to get poked, punched, flicked, and swatted like crazy
Brawl: A being tied to the link between this world, where trophies fight, and the world beyond. The meaning of his existence is unknown, as are his goals, but he seems to have obtained (and kept hidden) a power that borders on absolute. He also seems to feel a certain joy in challenging chosen warriors who've claimed many victories. He waits even now in Final Destination.
3ds/Wii U: The mysterious Master Hand is the source of creation in the Smash Bros. universe. He appears in Final Destination when all other rivals are defeated. He fights with a diverse move set and only grows stronger if you make him angry. If you know when to fight and when to dodge, you'll take him down!
I hope this can clear something out, it is stated to be the source of creation in Smash Bros universe, so yeah, low 2-C then
Melee: Trophy #159: The Master Hand awaits anyone who survives the long difficult road to the Final Destination. This symbolic link between the real world and the imaginary battlefields of Super Smash Bros. Melee is quite a handful in battle, and just because he wears a white glove doesn't mean he fights clean. Be ready to get poked, punched, flicked, and swatted like crazy
Brawl: A being tied to the link between this world, where trophies fight, and the world beyond. The meaning of his existence is unknown, as are his goals, but he seems to have obtained (and kept hidden) a power that borders on absolute. He also seems to feel a certain joy in challenging chosen warriors who've claimed many victories. He waits even now in Final Destination.
3ds/Wii U: The mysterious Master Hand is the source of creation in the Smash Bros. universe. He appears in Final Destination when all other rivals are defeated. He fights with a diverse move set and only grows stronger if you make him angry. If you know when to fight and when to dodge, you'll take him down!
I hope this can clear something out, it is stated to be the source of creation in Smash Bros universe, so yeah, low 2-C then
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I could go into a lot of detail on why that last sentence is false (at least for Master Hand). But I have work. So instead I'm going to leave things to be elaborated on either by others or until I get back.Kepekley23 said:
>SSB64 opening
>Trophy descriptions
>In Melee, all the trophies seem to be situated in an updated version of the room in the 64 opening
>Smash DOJO
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Fiction in a nutshell.ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Although, we could say that the one who created time was Arceus. Since the description states he was "born from nothing" and "newly born", he created "the world". Is not that farfetch'd ovo imo.
Though I can see the problems with that.
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No offense, but you're being literal to an actual fault here, foregoing the logical conclusion.Kepekley23 said:
...I'm not being mean or fallacious saying that, am I?
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TheHadouCyberspaceWitch said:
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People love to call things silly.
I direct you to Ben Shapiro's "facts and your feelings" speech.
I direct you to Ben Shapiro's "facts and your feelings" speech.
Agnaa
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Not ignore lore portrayals, but I'm drawing a distinction between "reality warping within a local-planetary scale" and "portrayal as a god of the universe"..TheHadouCyberspaceWitch said:
Aren't his "direct statements" actually pretty vague, such as being "a link between the real and fictional worlds" and "the source of creation" (Crazy Hand is the source of destruction yet the smashverse still exists. If being the source of destruction doesn't mean CH destroyed the smashverse, then why should being the source of creation mean MH created it?)
@Cal Isn't the SSB64 opening transforming things that already existed into other things? That's not creation, it's transformation.
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No offense, but you're being literal to an actual fault here, foregoing the logical conclusion.Kepekley23 said:
...I'm not being mean or fallacious saying that, am I?
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The logical conclusion is what is written and can be concluded, not what you personally feel they should be rated at. Sorry man.
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Not sure how vague this is, but-Reinhardthrowhisspear said:
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@agnaa
There is a statement that SSB is a universe. Not planet.
There is a statement that SSB is a universe. Not planet.
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Hey, @Reinhard, could you find Arceus' japanese trophy description? It might help clear a few things from his vagueness.
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I'm not quite sure how to interpret those, I don't read Japanese.
@Reinhard Then if he's shown reality warping over the scale of that universe he should be tiered appropriately. But Low 2-C seems too high for that.
@Reinhard Then if he's shown reality warping over the scale of that universe he should be tiered appropriately. But Low 2-C seems too high for that.
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@Hadou
That exact sentence is only present on three sites, one of them Wikipedia and the other two sites that copy its articles.
MH should be "possibly 3-A" at best in my view.
That exact sentence is only present on three sites, one of them Wikipedia and the other two sites that copy its articles.
MH should be "possibly 3-A" at best in my view.
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Umm, no. The trophy descriptions are 100% just like in the game. It's in a Japanese official wiki.
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Infinitely rendering space.
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This:
"ÒüôÒü«õ©ûþòîÒÇìÒü«ÕëÁÚÇáõ©╗ÒÇéõ║£þ®║ÚûôÒü¿ÒÇîÒüôÒü«õ©ûþòîÒÇìÒéÆÞç¬þö▒Òü½ÞíîÒüìµØÑÒüºÒüìÒéïþë╣µÇºÒéƵîüÒüñÒÇé"
Is only on Wikipedia and parrot websites. Nowhere else.
"ÒüôÒü«õ©ûþòîÒÇìÒü«ÕëÁÚÇáõ©╗ÒÇéõ║£þ®║ÚûôÒü¿ÒÇîÒüôÒü«õ©ûþòîÒÇìÒéÆÞç¬þö▒Òü½ÞíîÒüìµØÑÒüºÒüìÒéïþë╣µÇºÒéƵîüÒüñÒÇé"
Is only on Wikipedia and parrot websites. Nowhere else.
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If those descriptions are the same as the one in the official English translation, why are we using the wikipedia translation of the Japanese text rather than the official translation?Reinhardthrowhisspear said:
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Agnaa
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I get that, but if the translation is only reference on Wikipedia and 2 websites parroting it, are we going to unquestioningly trust it, or try to get it translated ourselves?
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ÕñûÞªïÒü»þÖ¢ÒüäµëïÞóïÒéÆÒüùÒüƒõ║║ÚûôÒü«ÕÅ│µëïÒüØÒü«ÒééÒü«ÒüºÒÇüµÖ«µ«ÁÒü»Õ«ÖÒü½µÁ«ÒüäÒüªÒüäÒéïÒÇéÞ¿¡Õ«ÜÒü»ÒüéÒü¥ÒéèµÿÄÒüïÒüòÒéîÒüªÒüèÒéëÒüܵ¡úõ¢ôÒü»Þ¼ÄÒüîÕñÜÒüäÒÇéÒüôÒéîÒü¥ÒüºÒü½µÿÄÒüïÒüòÒéîÒüƒÒüØÒü«µ¡úõ¢ôÒü½ÚûóÒüùÒüªÒüäÒüØÒüåÒü¬µâàÕá▒ÒüºÒü»ÒÇüµâ│Õâŵ¼▓Òü«ÕîûÞ║½ÒÇüþÁÂÕ»¥þÜäÒü¬ÕèøÒéÆþºÿÒéüÒüƒþÑ×Òü«ÒéêÒüåÒü¬Õ¡ÿÕ£¿ÒÇüÕà¿ÒüÅÒü«『Òé╣Òâ×ÒâûÒâ®』Òé¬Òâ¬Òé©ÒâèÒâ½Òé¡ÒâúÒâ®Òé»Òé┐Òâ╝Òü¿ÒééÒüäÒéìÒüäÒéìÒü¬Òé▓Òâ╝ÒâáÒü½Õç║ÒüªÒüäÒéïÒü¿ÒééÞ¿ÇÒüêÒéïÒÇüÒÇîÒâ×Òé╣Òé┐Òâ╝ÒâÅÒâ│ÒâëÒü»õ╗èÒü¥ÒüºµëïÒü«Òé½Òé┐ÒâüÒéÆÒüùÒüƒÒé½Òâ╝Òé¢Òâ½Òü¿ÒüùÒüªµòúÒÇàÒé│Òé¡õ¢┐ÒéÅÒéîÒüªÒüìÒüƒµÇ¿Õ┐ÁÒü«Òé½Òé┐ÒâüÒüáÒüúÒüƒÒéèÒüùÒüªÒÇìÒü¿ÒüäÒüåµèòþ¿┐Òü½Õ»¥ÒüùÒüªÒÇîÕ¢ôÒüƒÒéëÒüÜÒü¿ÒééÚüáÒüïÒéëÒüÜÒÇìÒü¿ÒüäÒüåÕêÂõ¢£ÞÇàµí£õ║òµö┐ÕìÜÒü«Þ┐öþ¡öÒÇü『Òé╣Òâ×ÒâûÒâ®』Òü«õ©ûþòîÒéêÒéèÒééÒüØÒü«ÕñûÚâ¿Òü«õ©ûþòîÒüºÒüéÒéèÒÇîõ║£þ®║ÚûôÒÇìÒü½Þ┐æÒüäÒü¿ÒüôÒéìÒü½ÒüèÒéèÒé┐ÒâûÒâ╝Òü¿Òü»ÚüòÒüúÒüªõ©íµû╣Òü«õ©ûþòîÒéÆÞç¬þö▒Òü½ÞíîÒüìµØÑÒüÖÒéïÒüôÒü¿ÒüîÕÅ»Þâ¢ÒÇüÒü¿ÒüäÒüåÒééÒü«ÒüîÒüéÒéïÒÇé- Smashwiki. Sakurai stated that MH came from the world different than SSB world or the subspace. Sakurai also stated to the fan that he is close to being like a cursor in the PC rebeled for being used too much, holding a grudge. And again, godlike being, it says.
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Then GG tier 2 Smash!CT. Oh well.
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Why do they lie about it? If we want it to be translated, i'll do it maybe tomorrow. It's like midnight here.Agnaa said:
Agnaa
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I mean, as OP pointed out, Sakurai also said that you can't cross from Subspace to World of Trophies without a rift, a statement which if taken as true breaks tons of plot events throughout SSBB.
EDIT: That's fair but their translation may accidentally use words which imply things one way or another which the source doesn't imply about this specific issue. It happens a lot when translating between languages for nitpicky purposes like this. Also the statement that was bolded as not being vague which is in contention isn't from SmashWiki but Wikipedia.
EDIT: That's fair but their translation may accidentally use words which imply things one way or another which the source doesn't imply about this specific issue. It happens a lot when translating between languages for nitpicky purposes like this. Also the statement that was bolded as not being vague which is in contention isn't from SmashWiki but Wikipedia.
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Well, even if you ignored the Wikipedia, there are many instances even trophy descriptions that says MH is a godlike. Possible that MH is an exception. Stated to freely traverse between those spaces in that sentences I posted.
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If time is not moving, does it exist?
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Yes, of course it does.
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What decides that though? If time is not moving, who can tell it exists, besides those who reside outside it's flow? Time beginning to move when Dialga was born implies that time never moved before Dialga, if it never moved then the space involved held no relation to time. Meaning, at least, that the birth of Dialga allowed space to register the flow of time.
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@Kep
Where does "At most 3-A" come from?
Also, ignoring that, this implies that you're advocating for adding a lower key. What would your suggestion for that be? Scaling Master Hand to the fighters?
Where does "At most 3-A" come from?
Also, ignoring that, this implies that you're advocating for adding a lower key. What would your suggestion for that be? Scaling Master Hand to the fighters?
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