Problem with current Smash Bros stats (mostly involving Master Hand)

[Kepekley23]

If there are many trophies with Low 2-C statements, post them.

 

[ShiroyashaGinSan]

Here's Dialga and Palkia. And possibly Arceus statement counts too.

 

[Asuka_the_Demonic_Empress]

Might be wrong, but can we be sure Melee Master Hand is the same as Subspace Adventure Mode Master Hand?

Because he is described as an concpetual kind of thing in Melee.

 

[Kepekley23]

Dialga's statement is not Low 2-C, time already existed by then, neither is Palkia's, Arceus's doesn't seem definitely Low 2-C either

 

[ShiroyashaGinSan]

He is also capable of transporting someone from Melee world to "reality" using a wormhole. I dunno just wanna put it here.

 

[ShiroyashaGinSan]

Okay. I found Japanese one. Definitely Dialga in SSB is Low 2-C. It says it's the time itself.

 

[Kepekley23]

Being time itself is meaningless without further context, and both trophies imply time already existed and Dialga's birth merely set it in motion.

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

"Ganondorf made the Subspace Bomb factory self-destruct in order to draw this ultimate weapon out from Subspace. It's capable of infinitely rending space, and its firepower is greater than that of any weapon. It exists to draw all of this world into Subspace, but the last-ditch efforts of the fighters might prevent this." - Subspace Gunship

"A Pokémon said to have hatched from an egg that appeared from nothing. Newly hatched, it created the world and the sky. Its Gravity attack will bring any fighter in midair crashing down to earth. No ground below you? Looks like you're going to go plummeting off the stage as if you'd been hit by a Meteor Smash!" - Arceus

"A Temporal Pokémon. This Legendary Pokémon is talked about as a deity in fables passed down through generations in the Sinnoh region. Identifiable by the diamondlike crystal in the center of its chest, Dialga is said to have set time in motion at the moment of its birth. Its fearsome Roar of Time attack is so powerful that it must refrain from attacking on its next turn." - Dialga, Brawl

"The concept of time has always been one of the world's great mysteries, but Dialga might hold the answer. Legend has it that Dialga's birth caused time to begin moving! It's no surprise that the people of Sinnoh see this Pokémon as a deity. If you're ever running late, maybe you could ask Dialga to do you a favour and turn back the clock." - Dialga, Sm4sh

"Stories of this Legendary Pokémon say that Palkia is a god that controls all of space. When it uses its Spacial Rend attack in Super Smash Bros., it causes the screen to flip upside down. If that wasn't confusing enough, it also flips the left and right controls!" - Palkia, Sm4sh

"A devil who holds absolute authority in Devil World. When he appears, he'll fly into the sky as a bat and then transform into his devil form. He'll then begin to point frantically in different directions, scrolling the stage where he points. You're...not really helping things, buddy." - Devil (This one is iffy, but it contextually refers to him having full control over his realm within the game he's in, and he does similar stuff that he does to his realm when he appears as a trophy. The size of the realm is what makes it iffy.)

"The great Koopa king in a sharp, white tuxedo. Bowser is forced into marriage with Princess Peach by Count Bleck, who plots to wipe out the universe with the Chaos Heart. Although it's all part of Count Bleck's plan, Bowser doesn't seem to be displeased with the prospect. This might just be the last time we ever see Bowser in a tuxedo." - Wedding Bowser (This refers to Bleck going to destroy the universe, and a Bleck trophy exists in the games.)

 

[Kepekley23]

The Dialga entries are not Low 2-C, Arceus's entry is vague due to the usage of "sky and world" as opposed to "universe", and controlling realms is not necessarily tier 2 or 3.

Bleck's trophy is vastly out of context. The Chaos Heart is only able to destroy universes by tearing The Void open and letting it absorb and destroy all dimensions on the Super Mario multiverse.

Ganon's trophy might be High 3-A, but I'd need to see the original translation.

 

[Agnaa]

Final Destination is supposed to be at least analagous to our own universe. I don't think the statements of Master Hand embodying creation, personifying creation, and being the spirit of creation are just worthless whenever they're so consistent. It's evidently intended that he created everything, and Crazy Hand is all things equally and oppositely destroyed. There are many trophies with Low 2-C statements, even ones that directly appear in game. Count Bleck, the Creation Trio, the Devil, it's pretty consistent for Master Hand to be that powerful, if not stronger.

Something that OP pointed out is that while MH has consistent statements of "embodying creation", CH has consistent statements of "embodying destruction", yet the universe still exists. Implying that "embodying creation" doesn't necessarily mean "you created this entire reality", you could just embody creation on a smaller scale within the reality that MH didn't create. Similarly, CH's statement "embodying destruction" doesn't mean "has destroyed the entire reality which MH created".

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

Dialga's entries are at least Low 2-C. He is time itself, and they indirectly refer to him as the concept of time. He completely controls time throughout the Smash multiverse and Palkia completely controls space throughout the Smash multiverse. I know Arceus's is vague, but now you're taking things vastly out of context by implying it's not referring to Arceus having created the universe. I bet the original statement says "world (sekai) and heavens", which wouldn't oppose him having created the universe, but I don't have the original on hand. You can't double standard that Bleck's is out of context and take Arceus's out of context. For that matter, I do know what the Chaos Heart does. I suppose Master Hand doesn't directly scale to the Void.

 

[Kepekley23]

They are not. They directly state time already existed by then and Dialga's birth simply set it in motion, which is a Time Manipulation feat, not a Low 2-C feat. Being called time itself is irrelevant if the feat that gives him that alias to begin with is not Tier 2.

Controlling all of space is not an AP feat unless shown otherwise. It's just good Spatial Manip.

I'm not taking it out of context. It's outright implied in Bleck's own Smash trophy that the function of the Heart is the same (it is the "first path to dimensional destruction"), so it can be assumed. Smash! Arceus, however, is said to have created the world and the skies, which is vaguely worded on purpose.

 

[ShiroyashaGinSan]

The Master and Crazy Hand are also heavily implied that they have strong connection to "reality", and all of the smash Bros world are just imaginary. They are like fiction to them. MH also described to be the creator (ÕëÁÚÇáõ©╗) of the smash Bros world.

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

^

 

[Kepekley23]

Scans?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Im pretty sure the trophies talk about how Dialgas heartbeats are what stablize time in smash still.

Dialgas heartbeats are what are Low 2-C here. Whether time already existed or not doesnt change this bit.

 

[Agnaa]

The Master and Crazy Hand are also heavily implied that they have strong connection to "reality", and all of the smash Bros world are just imaginary. They are like fiction to them. MH also described to be the creator (ÕëÁÚÇáõ©╗) of the smash Bros world.

That sounds way stronger than stuff I've heard before.

Also, does that open up any contradictions with MH losing to Tabuu?

 

[Kepekley23]

No, they don't.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

"A Temporal Pokémon. This Legendary Pokémon is talked about as a deity in fables passed down through generations in the Sinnoh region. Identifiable by the diamondlike crystal in the center of its chest, Dialga is said to have set time in motion at the moment of its birth. Its fearsome Roar of Time attack is so powerful that it must refrain from attacking on its next turn." - Dialga, Brawl

"The concept of time has always been one of the world's great mysteries, but Dialga might hold the answer. Legend has it that Dialga's birth caused time to begin moving! It's no surprise that the people of Sinnoh see this Pokémon as a deity. If you're ever running late, maybe you could ask Dialga to do you a favour and turn back the clock." - Dialga, Sm4sh

@Professor

There is no mention to it's heartbeats in those descriptions, tho.

 

[Executor_N0]

Being time itself is meaningless without further context, and both trophies imply time already existed and Dialga's birth merely set it in motion.

the trophy explains the meaning of "Dialga be the time".

µÖéÚûôÒüîÕïòÒüìÕç║ÒüùÒüƒÒü«Òü»ÒâçÒéúÒéóÒâ½Òé¼ÒüîþöƒÒü¥ÒéîÒüƒþ×¼ÚûôÒüïÒéëÒÇüÒüñÒü¥ÒéèÒÇüÒüéÒéïµäÅÕæ│ÒâçÒéúÒéóÒâ½Òé¼ÒüôÒüØÒüîµÖéÚûôÒü¬Òü«ÒüáÒÇé= Time began to move from the moment when Dialga was born, In other words, in a sense, Dialga is time.

 

[Kepekley23]

That still implies time already existed when Dialga was born and it simply began to move from a stopped state. If they wanted Dialga to be the creator of time on Smash they'd have said as much.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Then this Dialga doesnt have its time stabilizing heart beats then?

If not, I've been fed incorrect then.

 

[Executor_N0]

@Kep I did not say otherwise, I just brought the translation and it confirms your previous assumption.

 

[Kepekley23]

Oh. Sorry then.

 

[ShiroyashaGinSan]

ÒéñÒâíÒâ╝Òé©Òü«õ©ûþòîÒüºÒüéÒéï『Òé╣Òâ×ÒâûÒâ®』Òü«õ©ûþòîÒüïÒéëÞªïÒüªÒÇîþÅ¥Õ«ƒõ©ûþòîÒÇìÒü½µ£ÇÒééÞ┐æÒüäþ®║ÚûôÒü¿ÒüòÒéîÒüªÒüäÒéïÒÇéÒéÀÒâ¬Òâ╝Òé║ÚÇÜÒüùÒüªÒé│Òé║ÒâƒÒââÒé»Òü¬Úø░Õø▓µ░ùÒü«ÞâîµÖ»ÒüïÒéëÒÇüÕ£░þÉâõ©èÒü«õ¢òÕçªÒüïÒü«ÒéêÒüåÒü¬ÞâîµÖ»Òü©Òü¿ÕñëÕîûÒüùÒüªÒüäÒÇé3DSþëêÒü¿Wii UþëêÒüºÞâîµÖ»Òüîþò░Òü¬ÒéïÒüîÒÇüÒüèÒüèÒü¥ÒüïÒü¬µÁüÒéîÒü»ÕÉîÒüÿÒüºÒüéÒéïÒÇé- Smashwiki. Said that the FD is the closest space between imaginary world and reality.

"þÁéþé╣"Òü¥ÒüºÒüƒÒü®ÒéèÒüñÒüäÒüƒÒé¡ÒâúÒâ®Òé»Òé┐Òâ╝ÒéÆÞ┐ÄÒüêÒéïÒÇüÞ¼ÄÒü½µ║ÇÒüíÒüƒÕ¡ÿÕ£¿ÒÇéÕ¢╝Òü»þÅ¥Õ«ƒÒü¿ÒéñÒâíÒâ╝Òé©õ©ûþòîÒü¿Òü«ÚûôÒü½Õ╝ÀÒüäÒüñÒü¬ÒüîÒéèÒéƵîüÒüñÒÇéÒâòÒéíÒéñÒâêÒü«ÒüéÒéïÒâòÒéúÒé«ÒâÑÒéóÒü¿õ©Çµêªõ║ñÒüêÒéïÒü«ÒüîÕû£Òü│ÒéëÒüùÒüäÒÇéµêªÕá┤Òü½Òü╗ÒüåÒéèÕç║ÒüòÒéîÒüƒÒâòÒéúÒé«ÒâÑÒéóÒüƒÒüíÒü»ÒÇüÚòÀÒüÅþƒ¡ÒüäµêªÒüäÒü«ÚüôÒü«ÒéèÒü«µ£½ÒÇüÒâ×Òé╣Òé┐Òâ╝ÒâÅÒâ│ÒâëÒü¥ÒüºÕ©░ÒéèþØÇÒüÅÒÇé- Master Hand description. SSB64. Further explaining the MH's connection on both reality and imaginary.

ÒâòÒéúÒé«ÒâÑÒéóÒüƒÒüíÒüîµêªÒüå"ÒüôÒü«õ©ûþòî"Òü¿Òü®ÒüôÒüïÒü½ÚÇÜÒüÿÒéïÕêÑÒü«õ©ûþòîÒü½Õ╝ÀÒüäþ╣ïÒüîÒéèÒéƵîüÒüñÒÇéÕ¡ÿÕ£¿ÒüÖÒéïþÉåþö▒ÒéäµäÅþ¥®ÒÇüÒüØÒüùÒüªþø«þÜäÒü¬Òü®Òü»Þ¼ÄÒü½ÕîàÒü¥ÒéîÒüªÒüäÒéïÒüîÒÇüþÁÂÕ»¥þÜäÒü¬ÕèøÒéÆþºÿÒéüÒüƒþÑ×Òü«ÒéêÒüåÒü¬Õ¡ÿÕ£¿ÒüºÒüéÒéïÒÇéÕ╣¥ÕñÜÒü«µêªÒüäÒéÆÕïØÒüíµè£ÒüäÒüƒÚü©Òü░ÒéîÒüùµêªÕú½Òü¿Òü«µêªÚùÿÒü½Òü»ÒÇüµäëµéªÒéƵäƒÒüÿÒüªÒüäÒéïÒéëÒüùÒüäÒÇéõ╗èµùÑÒééþÁéþé╣ÒüºÒÇüµêªÕú½ÒéÆÕ¥àÒüñÒÇé - Master Hand description. SSB Melee. Stated that MH is a God or something similar in nature.

ÒüôÒü«õ©ûþòîÒÇìÒü«ÕëÁÚÇáõ©╗ÒÇéõ║£þ®║ÚûôÒü¿ÒÇîÒüôÒü«õ©ûþòîÒÇìÒéÆÞç¬þö▒Òü½ÞíîÒüìµØÑÒüºÒüìÒéïþë╣µÇºÒéƵîüÒüñÒÇé - Wikipedia. Stated to be the creator of the SSB. Stated that MH can freely traverse the world and Subspace. Something Tabuu cannot even do.

 

[Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou)]

"The Master Hand awaits anyone who survives the long difficult road to the Final Destination. This symbolic link between the real world and the imaginary battlefields of Super Smash Bros. Melee is quite a handful in battle, and just because he wears a white glove doesn't mean he fights clean. Be ready to get poked, punched, flicked, and swatted like crazy!" - Master Hand, Melee

"A being tied to the link between this world, where trophies fight, and the world beyond. The meaning of his existence is unknown, as are his goals, but he seems to have obtained (and kept hidden) a power that borders on absolute. He also seems to feel a certain joy in challenging chosen warriors who've claimed many victories. He waits even now in Final Destination." - Master Hand, Brawl

"As time passes on this stage, the level appears to travel through a wormhole from the imaginary Super Smash Bros. Melee world into reality. You move through a cloud-filled sky over a vast mountain range, then into a deep-space vista of dark blues and purples. The scenery is as real as you get in this fantastical world." - Final Destinatio

To Master Hand, the Smash verse is just figments of virtual reality and imagination.

 

[Agnaa]

Are you sure Master Hand seeing the Smash verse as virtual reality/imagination/fiction isn't contradictory? He gets effortlessly one-shot by Tabuu, and isn't Tabuu a part of the Smash verse?

 

[Kepekley23]

Imaginary/virtual world = \ = Low 2-C.

Dragon Ball Heroes humans aren't High 2-A.

 

[Lightbuster30]

No. The whole point of the invasion was to make smashverse part of Subsoace.

 

[ShiroyashaGinSan]

Are you sure Master Hand seeing the Smash verse as virtual reality/imagination/fiction isn't contradictory? He gets effortlessly one-shot by Tabuu, and isn't Tabuu a part of the Smash verse?

No. He came from different space completely. He was there to take over the world by using MH. He can't leave the subspace.

 

[Agnaa]

No. The whole point of the invasion was to make smashverse part of Subsoace.

So Tabuu would then be a being which also sees the smashverse as fiction, but is stronger than Master Hand?

 

[ShiroyashaGinSan]

So Tabuu would then be a being which also sees the smashverse as fiction, but is stronger than Master Hand?

Possibly. Wiki also said that he resemble some sort of cyberspace like features.

 

[CursedGentleman]

@Professor Kukui

The Hear beat thing is from Pokemon Pokedex

Pokemon Platinum: A legendary Pokémon of Sinnoh. It is said that time flows when Dialga's heart beats.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

The Dialga time thing seems like massive semantics, tbh.

 

[Agnaa]

@Professor Kukui

The Hear beat thing is from Pokemon Pokedex

Pokemon Platinum: A legendary Pokémon of Sinnoh. It is said that time flows when Dialga's heart beats.

Then it's irrelevant. MH already doesn't scale to the canon versions of creation trio. They're 2-B while MH is Low 2-C.

 

[Kepekley23]

No it's not. If he doesn't have hte feats he doesn't have the tier.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Hey Cal, go to the Ganon thread real quick, pls. ovo

 

[ShiroyashaGinSan]

Imaginary/virtual world = \ = Low 2-C.

Dragon Ball Heroes humans aren't High 2-A.

That is because humans aren't portrayed like that. In SSB, MH and CH are always portrayed as powerful, godly entities. And they also said that he is something like a God of SSB verse.

 

[Agnaa]

That is because humans aren't portrayed like that. In SSB, MH and CH are always portrayed as powerful, godly entities. And they also said that he is something like a God of SSB verse.

Strictly speaking, MH and CH aren't really "portrayed" as that. Their feats are minor-scale reality warping, only having vague trophy statements giving them a godly portrayal.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@Kep. That's quite a big false equivalency.