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Problem with current Smash Bros stats (mostly involving Master Hand)

Tabuu beating Master Hand is P
BrawlTabuuTrophy
IS because Master Hand views Tabuu as a literal toy


But Master hand viewing otther beings as literal toys is PIS because Master Hand views himself as a literal toy.

RSBE01-152
 
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The space closest to reality in imaginary SSB world perspective. In the series, the space has shown cosmic to somewhere on the planet like background. It is different in SSB for 3DS and Wii U, but the flow is still the same.

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A mysterious entity waiting for a character in the final destination. He has a strong connection between reality and imaginary world. His fun is apparently intertwining with the figures who are fighting. For the figures who are thrown in the battlefield will return to Master Hand, as a fruit of their long but short road of battle.

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It has a strong connection to the world outside of the world where the figures are fighting. The reason to exist, morality, objectives etc are unknown but we know that it is a Godlike entity who holds absolute power. It feels pleasure for fighting chosen fighters who fought many hard battles. Even today, he is waiting in the final destination, longing for the next fighter.

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The appearance is like a right white glove floating in space. He is a mysterious entity and not much is shown about him. But in regard to the information we saw, we can say that it is an incarnation for desire and imagination, the Godlike entity that holds absolute power, a completely original SSB character and so on. When one fan posted saying "Master Hand is like a cursor hand holding a grudge for being used too much.", creator, Masahiro Sakurai, stated that "close, but not close enough" and "he is in a place outside of the SSB world, closer to subspace but unlike Tabuu, he can traverse those spaces freely."

From what I read, he is not like a higher dimensional like being, he is some sort of normal dimensional being with Higher-Dimensional power similar to Zen'ō. Explains why Tabuu can defeat MH as well, Subspace is close to either FD or reality. I'm not saying that reality is a Higher-Dimensional, I'm just saying that it is similar to that.
 
Reinhardthrowhisspear said:
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The space closest to reality in imaginary SSB world perspective. In the series, the space has shown cosmic to somewhere on the planet like background. It is different in SSB for 3DS and Wii U, but the flow is still the same.

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A mysterious entity waiting for a character in the final destination. He has a strong connection between reality and imaginary world. His fun is apparently intertwining with the figures who are fighting. For the figures who are thrown in the battlefield will return to Master Hand, as a fruit of their long but short road of battle.

ÒâòÒéúÒé«ÒâÑÒéóÒüƒÒüíÒüîµêªÒüå"ÒüôÒü«õ©ûþòî"Òü¿Òü®ÒüôÒüïÒü½ÚÇÜÒüÿÒéïÕêÑÒü«õ©ûþòîÒü½Õ╝ÀÒüäþ╣ïÒüîÒéèÒéƵîüÒüñÒÇéÕ¡ÿÕ£¿ÒüÖÒéïþÉåþö▒ÒéäµäÅþ¥®ÒÇüÒüØÒüùÒüªþø«þÜäÒü¬Òü®Òü»Þ¼ÄÒü½ÕîàÒü¥ÒéîÒüªÒüäÒéïÒüîÒÇüþÁÂÕ»¥þÜäÒü¬ÕèøÒéÆþºÿÒéüÒüƒþÑ×Òü«ÒéêÒüåÒü¬Õ¡ÿÕ£¿ÒüºÒüéÒéïÒÇéÕ╣¥ÕñÜÒü«µêªÒüäÒéÆÕïØÒüíµè£ÒüäÒüƒÚü©Òü░ÒéîÒüùµêªÕú½Òü¿Òü«µêªÚùÿÒü½Òü»ÒÇüµäëµéªÒéƵäƒÒüÿÒüªÒüäÒéïÒéëÒüùÒüäÒÇéõ╗èµùÑÒééþÁéþé╣ÒüºÒÇüµêªÕú½ÒéÆÕ¥àÒüñÒÇé

It has a strong connection to the world outside of the world where the figures are fighting. The reason to exist, morality, objectives etc are unknown but we know that it is a Godlike entity who holds absolute power. It feels pleasure for fighting chosen fighters who fought many hard battles. Even today, he is waiting in the final destination, longing for the next fighter.

ÕñûÞªïÒü»þÖ¢ÒüäµëïÞóïÒéÆÒüùÒüƒõ║║ÚûôÒü«ÕÅ│µëïÒüØÒü«ÒééÒü«ÒüºÒÇüµÖ«µ«ÁÒü»Õ«ÖÒü½µÁ«ÒüäÒüªÒüäÒéïÒÇéÞ¿¡Õ«ÜÒü»ÒüéÒü¥ÒéèµÿÄÒüïÒüòÒéîÒüªÒüèÒéëÒüܵ¡úõ¢ôÒü»Þ¼ÄÒüîÕñÜÒüäÒÇéÒüôÒéîÒü¥ÒüºÒü½µÿÄÒüïÒüòÒéîÒüƒÒüØÒü«µ¡úõ¢ôÒü½ÚûóÒüùÒüªÒüäÒüØÒüåÒü¬µâàÕá▒ÒüºÒü»ÒÇüµâ│Õâŵ¼▓Òü«ÕîûÞ║½ÒÇüþÁÂÕ»¥þÜäÒü¬ÕèøÒéÆþºÿÒéüÒüƒþÑ×Òü«ÒéêÒüåÒü¬Õ¡ÿÕ£¿ÒÇüÕà¿ÒüÅÒü«『Òé╣Òâ×ÒâûÒâ®』Òé¬Òâ¬Òé©ÒâèÒâ½Òé¡ÒâúÒâ®Òé»Òé┐Òâ╝Òü¿ÒééÒüäÒéìÒüäÒéìÒü¬Òé▓Òâ╝ÒâáÒü½Õç║ÒüªÒüäÒéïÒü¿ÒééÞ¿ÇÒüêÒéïÒÇüÒÇîÒâ×Òé╣Òé┐Òâ╝ÒâÅÒâ│ÒâëÒü»õ╗èÒü¥ÒüºµëïÒü«Òé½Òé┐ÒâüÒéÆÒüùÒüƒÒé½Òâ╝Òé¢Òâ½Òü¿ÒüùÒüªµòúÒÇàÒé│Òé¡õ¢┐ÒéÅÒéîÒüªÒüìÒüƒµÇ¿Õ┐ÁÒü«Òé½Òé┐ÒâüÒüáÒüúÒüƒÒéèÒüùÒüªÒÇìÒü¿ÒüäÒüåµèòþ¿┐Òü½Õ»¥ÒüùÒüªÒÇîÕ¢ôÒüƒÒéëÒüÜÒü¿ÒééÚüáÒüïÒéëÒüÜÒÇìÒü¿ÒüäÒüåÕêÂõ¢£ÞÇàµí£õ║òµö┐ÕìÜÒü«Þ┐öþ¡öÒÇü『Òé╣Òâ×ÒâûÒâ®』Òü«õ©ûþòîÒéêÒéèÒééÒüØÒü«ÕñûÚâ¿Òü«õ©ûþòîÒüºÒüéÒéèÒÇîõ║£þ®║ÚûôÒÇìÒü½Þ┐æÒüäÒü¿ÒüôÒéìÒü½ÒüèÒéèÒé┐ÒâûÒâ╝Òü¿Òü»ÚüòÒüúÒüªõ©íµû╣Òü«õ©ûþòîÒéÆÞç¬þö▒Òü½ÞíîÒüìµØÑÒüÖÒéïÒüôÒü¿ÒüîÕÅ»Þâ¢ÒÇüÒü¿ÒüäÒüåÒééÒü«ÒüîÒüéÒéïÒÇé

The appearance is like a right white glove floating in space. He is a mysterious entity and not much is shown about him. But in regard to the information we saw, we can say that it is an incarnation for desire and imagination, the Godlike entity that holds absolute power, a completely original SSB character and so on. When one fan posted saying "Master Hand is like a cursor hand holding a grudge for being used too much.", creator, Masahiro Sakurai, stated that "close, but not close enough" and "he is in a place outside of the SSB world, closer to subspace but unlike Tabuu, he can traverse those spaces freely."
Click to expand...
Are these the trophy descriptions?
 
If MH views himself as a toy then doesn't that make the toy his avatar? He does view the Smashverse as imaginary, do maybe he willingly gets defeated as part of the game? (Bear in mind that this is pure speculation, I'm not suggesting it is true, just opening up an alternate possibility)
 
Asuka the Demonic Empress said:
Tabuu beating Master Hand is P
BrawlTabuuTrophy
IS because Master Hand views Tabuu as a literal toy


But Master hand viewing otther beings as literal toys is PIS because Master Hand views himself as a literal toy.

RSBE01-152
Click to expand...
"Plot induced stupidity"

Okay, no. It's not PIS, it literally can't be because it has nothing to do with the plot whatsoever, if you took away the trophies, nothing would change. The only time Smash even has a plot is in Brawl and that barely classifies as a plot.

Master Hand being the person who says about the trophies makes no sense when you realise that multiple of the trophies mention buttons you need to press to use certain attacks (how would he know?), guides how to play characters (again, how would he know?), references to the real world (including in his own trophies) and calling Smash "the Smash Bros universe" in third person. The player is the one with the trophies and the descriptions are just little extras put there by the developers.
 
Oh but a lot would change indeed.

Tabuu is currently being scaled out of Master Hand creating the universe AND that he sees Dialga Palkia and Arceus as toys because there are throphies of them.


If you didnt get it, the purpouse of those two throphies i posted above is to show just how stupid that scaling really is.
 
Ehh, no. That isn't PIS at all. Like FD, Subspace is also close to reality and likely has connection for being the embodiment of it. Reminds me of super spiral space in TTGL for some reason.
 
Lightbuster30 said:
If MH views himself as a toy then doesn't that make the toy his avatar? He does view the Smashverse as imaginary, do maybe he willingly gets defeated as part of the game? (Bear in mind that this is pure speculation, I'm not suggesting it is true, just opening up an alternate possibility)
Click to expand...
I don't think so. Like, for example, if you can see yourself from 4-D perspective, you are nothing but a fictional like how 2-D is nothing more than fiction to 3-D. The difference is that you are a fiction that sees itself as a fiction for seeing yourself from reality.
 
@Reinhardthrowhisspear That isn't really correct. Fiction-reality difference is kind of like dimensional difference but not exactly the same. Seeing something as fiction isn't like seeing something 2-D, but fiction would be like words on a page or ideas in your head.

If you saw yourself from a 4-D perspective you'd be infinitely more powerful than the 3-D version, but the 3-D version wouldn't be fiction.
 
Can people not read that saying the fight PIS because Tabuu can be obtained as a trophy is part of pointing out how stupid scaling from throphies is?


IM NOT SAYING TABUU BEATING MASTER HAND IS PIS, but that scaling from whats in the gallery IS.


Seriously, learn to read.
 
MH should have some Higher-Dimensional-like mind for seeing SSB world, including himself to be fiction. I mean, BB has something like this ability and it was considered a Higher-Dimensional mind.
 
Reinhardthrowhisspear said:
MH should have some Higher-Dimensional-like mind for seeing SSB world, including himself to be fiction. I mean, BB has something like this ability and it was considered a Higher-Dimensional mind.
Click to expand...
Seeing something as fiction =/= higher-dimensional. You need to demonstrate some sort of qualitative superiority over it.

SCP-2786 sees reality as equally fictional as video games, movies, and books within that reality, but is only 9-B.
 
He is always portrayed like a God in SSB. Reality in SSB is also portrayed as something beyond and only God tiers have remote connection to it.
 
If by "portrayed like a God" you mean "is a high-tier reality warper" and "is DESCRIBED as a god WITHIN TROPHIES" you'd be right. But I'm not quite convinced that being a reality warper and having vague trophy statements is enough.
 
In SSB64, you can even see how he creates the stage to make them fight. Tabuu specifically used him to take over the SSB universe, saying that he can do it. Added to the fact that it is connected to somewhere beyond. And vague statements don't make it any less of an evidence. Warhammer 40,000 is the best example of that.
 
Creating a stage =/= creating an infinitely sized universe.

"take over the SSB universe" sounds pretty vague, does that require an infinite degree of power?
 
I dunno but it at least needs "absolute power". No need to be infinitely sized to be Low 2-C, you just need to have Higher-Dimensional power, which has statement proofs. As I said, reality in SSB is portrayed as something beyond and glimpse of reality in an fantastical world, adding to the piwer of the ones who are connected to it.
 
N64 Smash Bros =/= Brawl Smash Bros.


the Brawl subspace shows that the smash realm is completely separate from MH´s room in N64 and the fighters are throphies, not plush dolls.
 
I don't know why people keep ignoring this but

Master Hand isn't the one with the trophies

The player is the one with the trophies

You can't scale Master Hand to something he doesn't own or have access to

It's like saying Mario has access to all the songs you can get in the Mario Odyssey menu or something

It's also literally impossible for Master Hand to own a trophy of himself because to become a trophy you have to be dead (according to Sakurai's own words) and him owning a trophy of both him being dead and his inner core being dead is just... really stupid tbh
 
One, idk where everyone's getting the idea that every game has to have the player as an actual being involved in the series (I'm exaggerating quite a bit and not necessarily you guys, but with the popularity of Undertale and DDLC, it's become a popular trend). Hes not. Especially here.

Saying that Master Hand can't have a trophy of himself is like saying in order for Derek Jeter to see baseball cards as baseball cards, he can't have a baseball card of himself.
 
The real cal howard said:
One, idk where everyone's getting the idea that every game has to have the player as an actual being involved in the series (I'm exaggerating quite a bit and not necessarily you guys, but with the popularity of Undertale and DDLC, it's become a popular trend). Hes not. Especially here.
Saying that Master Hand can't have a trophy of himself is like saying in order for Derek Jeter to see baseball cards as baseball cards, he can't have a baseball card of himself.
Click to expand...
Idk why Master Hand would have a trophy that talks about the universe in third person or have trophies that mention button presses and the real world. I don't know why we're even assuming Master Hand owns the gallery despite not having a lick of truth to why he would.

And also

"Being turned back into a trophy, being unable to fight, is much like death." -Masahiro Sakurai, Smash Bros DOJO

If you're a trophy, you're basically a corpse.

Master Hand would have to have both his own corpse and the corpse of his inners.
 
It's been a long time since I've played Brawl, but i don't remember seeing the trophies of any npcs. MH was chained up, and never converted into a trophy. And if all trophies are equal, then the smashverse has triplicates of every character, at least since Brawl iirc.

I don't see that the trophy of MH is MH bound to a little base like a corpse.
 
My point that I don't believe the trophy feature of the games should be used, outside of the descriptions given, simply because if every trophy could come to life every character would have two clones. If MH created the world of trophies he would scale to Arceus because Arceus appears in-game as a living being.
 
The real cal howard said:
@Detect. It's made very apparent that said thing only applies to Smasher.
Click to expand...
No, not really.

Yeah, none of the enemies or bosses does it, but you can still make them into trophies (which is only with the trophy base because otherwise, the game would have no replayability.

If it happened during gameplay, there would be trophies everywhere and that would be unplayable You can still turn these bosses into trophies, it just can't happen in gameplay for stuff like Meta Ridley.

Imagine every enemy you beat in Subspace became a trophy. Not only does that ruin the flow of trophy collecting, it puts a lot of character models on the screen rather than making them disappear. The trophy base was added as an alternative to that because otherwise, it would just be too technically challenging and too easy to collect trophies and play through Subspace. And in 4, you can buy trophies from a store that's very clearly not Master Hand, so unless we're assuming the player is Master Hand (even though you can fight him with your own name attached to a fighter) it doesn't really make sense.

 
...btw, idk if this has come up before, but if you can put Arceus in a pokeball, does that make pokeballs 2-B - at least in dura?
 
Link Eternal said:
...btw, idk if this has come up before, but if you can put Arceus in a pokeball, does that make pokeballs 2-B - at least in dura?
Click to expand...
I'd make a thread for that elsewhere.
 
I would not allow that, read the Pokémon verse description, it implies that catching Arceus is along the many PIS of the verse and the Pokéballs are not 2-B in dura, that's oblivious since weak Pokémon can break them.
 
. If MH created the world of trophies he would scale to Arceus because Arceus appears in-game as a living being.


Oh yeah, and he created himself, his crazy sibling, and his core into throphies too, huh?

Not to mention the TWO Tabuu Throphies make this even more dumb.


No, no, no.
 
I'm neutral about this, i'm not suggesting to scale MH to the trophies. I only responded about Arceus and the Pokéballs.
 
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