Problem with current Smash Bros stats (mostly involving Master Hand)

[DetectiVE899]

Okay 2 things.
1.) Everyone here needs to calm down. I dont care at all who started what or who's continuing what. This is a discussion, not the 100 year war. Everyone here needs to chill, take a break, come back with a calm mind, and stop coming at each others throats about attitudes and such. Now.

2.) Remember Cal asking for Azzy to make a comment here? Since he was largely apart of ranking Smash where it is now before, he can be of a big assistance here. We need to wait until he can come to give his thoughts.

Understood.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Matter of fact, I'll leave another message on his wall asking him to come when he can.

 

[Link_Eternal]

@Asuka

I don't see why not, they are just trophies. You can pick them up in Subspace Emissary.

However, I also don't see why the description for what the trophy depicts would not apply to the smashverse versions.

 

[Asuka_the_Demonic_Empress]

I mean, you CAN have a Smash bros Arceus profile around becausw of the description, but it has been proven that scaling MH or Tabuu to them is far from valid.


Because, if MH could see Tabuu as a toy, it means that him losing on subspace is PIS.

 

[Agnaa]

Or at least 5-B likely low 2-C (Is infinitely superior to Rayquaza, created Subspace Emissary, to which is unknown if it is a world or a universe)

And please,I am relaxed, the way I write does not say how I am feeling

Why would being superior to Rayquaza make MH 2-C?

 

[CursedGentleman]

Why would being superior to Rayquaza make MH 2-C?

Did you read the entire explanation?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I just need to ask;

People are aware Tabuu isn't originally a trophy, right?

He exists in a place that is separate from the World of the Trophies, and the only way to get his main trophy in brawl is by turning him into one using a specific item when he's about to die, anyway.

 

[Agnaa]

Yes. Was being superior to Rayquaza for the 5-B rating?

 

[Link_Eternal]

Are we agreed that the trophies are just trophies aside from those proven otherwise?

 

[Asuka_the_Demonic_Empress]

Proboem was that peoplenstarted to scale MH out of the gallery throphies.

 

[ShiroyashaGinSan]

I don't see a problem with scaling with trophies. Also what a cluster ****, I'm out for like a day and this was happened. Tabuu beating MH isn't PIS because MH is a toy himself, it's just that he has a greater power than the rest of the cast and sees every other toys as tremendously inferior. Gallery trophies descriptions are pretty accurate, there is nothing contradicting it, so what is the problem?

 

[Agnaa]

The problem is if MH scales to trophies then he scales to Tabuu, who is stronger than himself, and he scales to himself.

MH > MH and MH > Tabuu > MH aren't acceptable bits of scaling. If the same pieces of evidence that give us universal MH also give us MH being stronger than MH they should be disregarded.

And even ignoring that, we need a decent implication that assist trophies and other characters that aren't playable are trophies in the same way that playable characters are (as opposed to ordinary trophies as you'd find in reality).

Please actually read the posts in the thread. This has been explained multiple times already.

 

[Agnaa]

And who said that trophy MH and actual MH isn't one and the same?

Because you can't see yourself as a toy and scale to your own AP as if you were a toy. We're not having a 1-B master hand.

And proof?

Of what?

And why aren't they? They were never shot by the gun but there's no implications that the gun's effects are different when using it to those characters in Subspace Emissary.

Because the only characters we see being shot by guns and turning into trophies are the main cast of characters; smashers. Assist trophies and others could be ordinary non-anomalous trophies not created through the gun.

 

[ShiroyashaGinSan]

It's like BB, she sees her own dimension including herself from a 4th or 8th dimensional perspective, MH is seeing himself as a toy from his connection to reality. I said this before. His AP has another supports, being Godlike entity, having connections to the reality, and he is close to being like a tool from the real world similar to cursors in the PC. As I said, he is like normal dimensional being with Higher-Dimensional power.

We don't see any other way how to make a trophy outside of gun and Tabuu's black thingy. So it's gotta be either of them. the in SSB4, Melee, and 64, the black thingy are not present.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

Wouldn't Master Hand be the avatar of the child, with the child being his "true form"?

Because I'd argue that defeating Master Hand isn't defeating the child itself. It's stated in the trophy descriptions that Master Hand is the "symbolic link", so it's more likely that he's just a representation of the child than the child itself, especially since virtually everything in Smash is apparently happening in the child's imagination.

 

[Link_Eternal]

Assist trophies come to life.

Can sommeone give a scan that would tell that every trophy can be animated, and not just the playable characters/assist trophies.

 

[Agnaa]

@Reinhardthrowhisspear If MH is seeing himself as a toy from his connection to reality, then the profile is for his toy and not his connection to reality, and so that toy shouldn't scale to any trophies.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

To further clarify; imagine yourself playing with your toys as a child. You make your hand the monster that eats everything, and you have your little action figure save the day and "defeat" your hand.

Obviously your hand is just fine unless you're an insane child who would brutalize his own hand with an action figure. However, in your imagination, the action figure DID defeat whatever monster your hand was acting as.

In this case, Master Hand is your hand and the Smashers are the action figure(s).

However I do agree with Kep's arguments that Master Hand shouldn't be Low 2-C via scaling to the Creation Trio. And since the statement "source of creation" statement is very vague, I don't see any solid evidence backing up Master Hand's Low 2-C ranking.

 

[ShiroyashaGinSan]

Assist trophies come to life.
Can sommeone give a scan that would tell that every trophy can be animated, and not just the playable characters/assist trophies.

Just allow the items and pick up figures. They'll temporarily animate and fight for you.

 

[Link_Eternal]

I though the Subspace Emissary cemented the smashverse as it's own fictional, well verse. Irrrespective of whether or not that world was born from a child's imagination, it is it's own verse with its own rule and should be treated as such. I don't think we can use the child to explain anything that happens in-verse. At the very least not in the Emissary.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

To make it clear:

I'm arguing that Master Hand should be downgraded to 7-B, while his "true form" as the child should be Unknown.

Tier: 7-B | 7-B | Unknow

Key: Master Hand | Master Core | True Form (as the child)

 

[Agnaa]

I wasn't sure if we could have a key/profile for MH's true form since we don't have much information about it, but that sounds like a good way to handle it.

 

[Link_Eternal]

@Reinhard

The problem is that when items are on it's not like they fall to the ground as trophies, then animate when you pick them up. Plus, many of those items are consumable, so unless you are saying duplicate trophies in the gallery is canon, I don't think they would just waste them.

 

[ShiroyashaGinSan]

Well, I do agree that CT scaling is a bit clunky. SSB is already more than just a crossover even before Emissary. A completely original character called Master Hand is the evidence of that. I'm leaning in Arbitrary's explanation but I'm not quite convinced yet.

 

[Link_Eternal]

"The Master Hand awaits anyone who survives the long difficult road to the Final Destination. This symbolic link between the real world and the imaginary battlefields of Super Smash Bros. Melee is quite a handful in battle, and just because he wears a white glove doesn't mean he fights clean. Be ready to get poked, punched, flicked, and swatted like crazy!" - Master Hand, Melee
"A being tied to the link between this world, where trophies fight, and the world beyond. The meaning of his existence is unknown, as are his goals, but he seems to have obtained (and kept hidden) a power that borders on absolute. He also seems to feel a certain joy in challenging chosen warriors who've claimed many victories. He waits even now in Final Destination." - Master Hand, Brawl

"As time passes on this stage, the level appears to travel through a wormhole from the imaginary Super Smash Bros. Melee world into reality. You move through a cloud-filled sky over a vast mountain range, then into a deep-space vista of dark blues and purples. The scenery is as real as you get in this fantastical world." - Final Destinatio

To Master Hand, the Smash verse is just figments of virtual reality and imagination.

The descriptions of MH in-game always led me to believe that he at least created the trophy planet (is this even a thing? I want to say "world", but I'm trying to be specific) if not the trophy universe, as implied in the smash 4 descriptio.

 

[ShiroyashaGinSan]

To make it clear:

I'm arguing that Master Hand should be downgraded to 7-B, while his "true form" as the child should be Unknown.

Tier: 7-B | 7-B | Unknow

Key: Master Hand | Master Core | True Form (as the child)

1) While being curbstomped, he was recognized and used by Tabuu, who embodies Subspace, which has at least the size of the SSB universe.

2) Repeatedly stated that he is the embodiment of creation, imagination and desire.

3) Exists in FD, a place between reality and imaginary.

4) Repeatedly stated to be a God or Godlike entity.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

@Link Don't quoting an wall of text.

 

[Agnaa]

@Link Eternal, that has already been addressed repeatedly in this thread, as well as in the OP.

While Master Hand is dubbed the "source of creation", Crazy Hand is also dubbed the "source of destruction". If you take MH to have created the universe because of that statement, then shouldn't CH have destroyed the universe as well? If so, then why is the universe still there?

@Reinhard 1) Embodying something doesn't mean creating it.

2) Embodying creation doesn't mean it created the universe. CH didn't destroy the universe even though CH embodies destruction.

3) A character needs more than this to be universal, even though it could support that rating.

4) A character needs more than this to be universal, even though it could support that rating.

 

[Link_Eternal]

@Velox,

Sorry.

For the thread:

Quick question, about the stages in the smashverse, don't they include everything in the backround?

It seemed to me that the worlds we see are alternate versions of the canon verses, like Hyrule Warriors for the LoZverse. Well, I think we already established that the characters were not pulled from canon, but if MH created the stages...

 

[Agnaa]

Stages seem like a decent place to get started for scaling, probably dropping MH somewhere in tier 7 or 8.

 

[Link_Eternal]

Aren't there suns in some of those stages? And what about the backround of FD?

 

[Lightbuster30]

Yeah ok I'm pretty damn sure that embodying a universe makes you universal.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

Now that I think of it, Master Hand being the "source of creation" means that he could've possibly created the stars and planets that are present in the verse. Meaning 4-C at bare minimum.

Also, I think it's pretty clear that there's a distinction between the actual trophies of the fighters and the collectible ones that are obtained.

I think Master Hand and Tabuu are only there as collectible trophies for the sake of collection. I don't think it means that they're viewed as fiction to Master Hand. Master Hand viewing himself as fiction is just contradictory and makes no sense.

 

[Agnaa]

Well that's why I tried drawing the line at MH views the actual trophies of fighters as fiction and the other collectibles are just there for the sake of collection, so we wouldn't have Master Hand viewing himself or someone who stomps him as fiction.

Other people have also proposed that MH doesn't own the trophy collection, but the player does, so MH doesn't scale.

 

[ShiroyashaGinSan]

CH isn't destroying because he is a lunatic. His laughs are sadistic enough, even his moves are like that. It's just because he is sadistic and also because his twin glove loves them so no don't destroy them please my brother. If it's stage tier 4 I think. SSB4 stages especially the Starfox ones have stars and outer space.

I'm pretty sure embodying something means you are as powerful as something you are embodying. Eternity for example.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

Care to give me the source stating that Tabuu "embodies" subspace? Every source I find only mentions that he resides in it.

 

[Link_Eternal]

So we can agree about the trophies? It would make sense since there are trophies of canon characters that never appear in smash.

Also, while it is true that being the "source of creation" does not necessarily mean that you created the subject, it ca, and does imply just that. Likewise, being the "source of destruction" does not have to mean that your mere presence will destroy the subject, and even if it did, this would just mean that MH > CH

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

MH is stated to be the source of creation withi the Smash Universe, not of the Smash universe, so at best that means everything in the Smash universe was created by him at some point in time. At bare minimum it means he created it one celestial body at a time.

Perhaps "At least 4-A, possibly 3-A"?

 

[Link_Eternal]

Is there not a universe in FD?

 

[CursedGentleman]

I mean, I see a sun on FD (3DS version) anything else and it will be seen as mere speculation