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Post-Crisis Wally West 2-A CRT

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Clearly it was talking about the entire multiverse when it was confused with an assault from the Source of all things...
 
I literally saw no multiversal AP feats and only range at best, also, Superman and Hal are not regularly multiversal in Post Flashpoint continuity, Tier 4 is most consistent for regular showings.

Anyway, Eficiente honestly makes the most sense here.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Yeah, I recall it mentioning that Flash has consistent range feats, but anything higher than High 3-A which is via a literal suicide attack by the way is pretty much wanking Flash. And even said High 3-A suicide attack is 100% hypothetical if Wally West can even pull it off.
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Let's downgrade anti monitor to 3-a.
this is so wrong wally has has multiple feats done far higher than high 3-a. This is just downplay
 
I'm gonna wait for Firestorm, but I don't think Effciente's arguments make sense so far.
 
The_real_cal_howard said:
Clearly it was talking about the entire multiverse when it was confused with an assault from the Source of all things...
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Why word it like it? Highfather was just starting to feel the power, confused and wrong, he casually asked without stating anything if this wild power that reached into them/was affecting things around the multiverse was from that powerful place they very much knew of, maybe because it would have the ability to do so unlike most things and energies out there rather than = power to the Source Wall itself. And by maybe I mean that's more likely as it takes in less. If he were to stand up and state to the air or to someone else how this power was from an assault from the Source Wall like you say then that's miles better, as it implies the power of it being used to attack the things it does, but again, nothing got destroyed or anything, it was power messing things up, fitting to what Highfather said.

2-A Wally via this assumes the first 2 things I pointed out before being more legit than how they are + Highfather making this mistake as in powerscaling going on and supporting the end of the multiverse, + on the havoc part happening right now doesn't consequently mean the multiverse being destroyed right now too but sometime later somehow (2-A durability for the multiverse?), and + this would scale to Wally physically even tho it happens due to the energy all around the multiverse coming from the Speed Force.

I'm just disagreeing with this 1 feat I knew of (if it's the main one here), I didn't see much of the other stuff linked. I at least know some legit 3-A scaling (not physically) Wally should scale to, but idk from where it came from.
 
Here's an adjusted version of the OP with the citations. I'll be posting my deeper evaluation later, but I highly recommend that people read the comics to confirm the contexts.
  • The Flash Vol 2 #109, January 1996
  • The Flash Vol 2 #149, June 1999
    • In the past of the Post-Crisis timeline, Cobalt Blue kills Barry Allen causing an alternate Crisis in the Post-Crisis timeline.
  • The Flash Vol 2 #150, July 1999
    • Wally encounters the Anti-Monitor in the "Post-Crisis iteration" of the COIE as Earth-Two Superman isn't shown in the group.
    • When the group fails, Wally starts tearing apart the Anti-Monitor’s armor by himself.
    • Wally breaks lightspeed, skirting the edge of the speed force, letting every last erg of it out through him and into his current dimension.
    • He's become a temporary living conduit of its limitless power as the human body is not meant to channel this level of energy
  • The Flash Vol 2 #160, May 2000
  • Flash: Rebirth Vol 1 #4 September 2009
    • Barry created the Speed Force and cannot be cut off from it.
    • The Speed force exists in every dimension, universe, and era.
  • The Flash Vol 5 #49, August 2018
    • Wally's conflict with Barry was affecting the multiverse.
  • Flash: Rebirth Vol 1 #4 September 2009
    • Using a staff from Tempus Fuginaut, Wally and Lightspeed were controlling the Speed Force to separate two worlds and destroy dark matter.
 
Guys... I already convinced Ant on the validity of 2-A Wally (well it might actually be 2-C) a while back on his wall, it'd be a variable tier from 8-C to 4-B to 2-C/2-A. That's probably also what he was referencing in his post someone brought up. I just need to make a Speed Force blog first.
 
And when I mentioned it looks more like range than it was AP, Antvasima also pretty much agreed
 
Alphaapexnep00 said:
He still inflicted harm to anti monitor
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I find really questionable scaling COIE Anti-Monitor to Flash, considering how much stronger he is usually portrayed compare to any DC Heralds.

Yes Flash did destroy the armor, but it was only possible because it was already seriously damage by the combine attack of all Pre-Crisis Heroes.

Yes, Flash did making them stronger by giving them more energy, but that doesn't necessarely mean he was more powerful than all of them.

Yet, AM still won the fight, killed all the Pre Crisis heroes and Flash only option at that point was to run away.
 
I disagree with it, only because AM wasn't 2-A in that storyline, but that's a separate bone to pick. I agree that this version of Wally seems on par with AM.
 
After reading through the citations, it seems legit. While 1 of the infinite energy statements refers to stamina, the rest seem fine, though I don't think they even support 2-A. The extra-dimensional scan is too vague imo, but aside from that, everything seems fine. While Anti-Monitor was weakened, it seems he was still 2-C in that state, his fight with Barry was blatantly 2-A, and the Speed Force seems 2-A as well. So, I can see him being "2-C, possibly 2-A at peak".
 
Ehnkr2beboh said:
After reading through the citations, it seems legit. While 1 of the infinite energy statements refers to stamina, the rest seem fine, though I don't think they even support 2-A. The extra-dimensional scan is too vague imo, but aside from that, everything seems fine. While Anti-Monitor was weakened, it seems he was still 2-C in that state, his fight with Barry was blatantly 2-A, and the Speed Force seems 2-A as well. So, I can see him being "2-C, possibly 2-A at peak".
Click to expand...
Okay. That is probably fine then, but I prefer to wait for more input a while longer.
 
The speed force's structure is indeed multiversal in size, 2-A and there are some scans that argue some capabilities of outpacing Tier 1 characters, but it would more so be speed and hax rather than AP. Also, Anti-Monitor appears weakened, and is stomping the Pre-Crisis cast even in that state, so he'd still be 2-C in this instance yes. Spectre also frequently is nerfed if the "Will of God" doesn't want him to use his full power, so him struggling has almost never been a reliable 2-A source.

Also, to clarify facts about Wally and other Post-Crisis cast members in case people repeat them here or in the future, the Relativistic Mass Punch is pretty much the cap of his non suicidal power of Wally and basically intended to be a Trump Card among all JLA founders. And it was calculated at 4-B. There is an Infinite Mass Punch that is hypothetical, it is mentioned that a static Speed of Light is the hardest velocity to maintain, and Superman himself confirms that it's 100% impossible for him to static that speed due to lacking "Infinite Kinetic Energy", but it may be possible for Wally due to tapping into the Infinite Kinetic Energy of the speed force. But it's also noted he would pretty much die and be forced to get engulfed inside the Speed Force permanently if that happens. So that's really why I'm super skeptical about giving Wally a Tier 2 key unless the power source goes beyond a Speed Force and/or if merging with speed Force became a literal key.

Also, The Flash does have the ability to negate durability via making use of spatial intangibility and the like, which may explain how he can sometimes harm Tier 2 characters. He has durability negation listed on his profile, but Eficiente is right that simply "Distorting universes" is more so range rather than AP. Significant levels reality warping would be stuff like Destruction and recreation, squeezing two or more universes into one, splitting a universe into multiple universes via interdimensional cosmic inflation, giving birth to entire universes, causing dimensional collapses of entire universes, ect. But generic distortions in the fabric of time and space statements are less AP and more so range and hax.
 
Firestorm808 said:
  • Flash: Rebirth Vol 1 #4 September 2009
    • Using a staff from Tempus Fuginaut, Wally and Lightspeed were controlling the Speed Force to separate two worlds and destroy dark matter.
Click to expand...
So, this got me thinking he could have 2-B environmental destruction via that and I read to it; in issue 2 he says that the stick uses pure light to purge the dark energy and some being made of that dark energy hated being attacked by it, making it seem like hax. I find notably more likely that the universes went back to normal on their own when the dark energy was destroyed as it didn't finish to merge the universes (as that would have destroyed them) and the stick's only shown property is to destroy that dark energy, not Reality Warping. The bit about controlling the Speed Force doesn't do anything, it's just a speedster slower than Wally experiencing to go faster and having more control over the Speed Force.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
The speed force's structure is indeed multiversal in size
Click to expand...
Actually it encompasses the Bleed as well, which we accept as 5D on-site, as seen on the map of the multiverse. Future Wally also used the Speed and Still Forces to collapse Hypertime in the future, which should bind even the Sphere of the gods. So you can definitely argue the Speed Force to be tier 1.
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Spectre also frequently is nerfed if the "Will of God"
Click to expand...
I mean this is COIE, he fought a 2-A AM not too long before that... don’t see why he’d suddenly drop in power. AM was stated to be weakened though iirc, hence 2-C, possibly 2-A.
DarkDragonMedeus said:
a Trump Card among all JLA founders
Click to expand...
I don’t see when this is stated, in fact Supes probably shouldn’t even scale to the Relativstic Mass Punch since we have no proof whether he went higher or lower than Wally in the one instance he used it and scaling via Reverse Flash is difficult (but not impossible).
DarkDragonMedeus said:
But it's also noted he would pretty much die and be forced to get engulfed inside the Speed Force permanently if that happens.
Click to expand...
When is that? Wally gets greater control of his powers over the years and around this time he can freely enter the speed force and bust out his dead wife. Also the AM feat is pretty much a homage to Barry Allen’s feat where he destroyed AM’s antimatter cannon, but Wally actually succeeded in not getting absorbed by the SF since he’s better than Barry.
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Also, The Flash does have the ability to negate durability via making use of spatial intangibility and the like
Click to expand...
I checked and he doesn’t seem to be phasing during the feat, you’d see it if he was. So it’s just him running through the armor.
DarkDragonMedeus said:
simply "Distorting universes
Click to expand...
This would still be a High 3-A feat for affecting infinite universe, proving that Flashes can use infinite amounts of energy from the SF without getting absorbed into it. Then again I’m neutral on his feat together with Barry.

May I also remind people that Flash’s power and speed can vary based on his emotions, such as when he tagged Zoom and fought with him (while Zoom was wielding several forces at the same time), despite being far behind him moments prior? Since Cobalt Blue literally just killed Barry and the league got defeated by Anti-Monitor, I’d say Wally had plenty of reason to get pissed and show AM his true power.

So yeah Wally should get up to 4-B. 2-C, possibly 2-A at peak for fighting Anti-Monitor and busting his armor, while also amping the Pre-Crisis league to fight him. (With a potential 8-C end as well)
 
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