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Post-Crisis Wally West 2-A CRT
- Thread starter Alphaapexnep00
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Just here to say Firestorm and I discussed stuff in private and came to a conclusion. I'll write it down soon-ish.
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Wait a second. We’re ignoring the Anti Monitor example, blatant 2-A
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Doubt it’s an outlier like the race and destroy the Multiverse is an example as well
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Also, was speed force even affected by the crisis? Why would it change from what it was Pre crisis?
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Excuse me?why do only comic verses feats seem outlier to you guys?especially marvel and DC?
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Isn't anti life equation low 1-C?
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Not necessarily to reverse the affects of any one individual that is affected by it. It's not like he destroyed the ALE.
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1. It's not only comic book verses, I have no idea where you get this from.
2. Other verses aren't DC Comics or Marvel where the cosmology, power levels and character backstories change more than people's clothing.
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Post-Flashpoint Speed Force clearly 1-A. Why get the Low 1C feat outlier?
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I've already done this.
Omniversal Speed Force
What does omniverse mean?
He says that he perceives it as energy coming from beyond the sphere of the gods and is felt right up to the Source Wall. So it takes up the entire Multiverse.
Also, Speed Force was said to be part of Takion's strength. Takion's powers come from The Source.
Look for the lightning strikes on the Multiverse Map. Between the Speed Force wall and the Source wall.
Omniversal Speed Force
What does omniverse mean?
He says that he perceives it as energy coming from beyond the sphere of the gods and is felt right up to the Source Wall. So it takes up the entire Multiverse.
Also, Speed Force was said to be part of Takion's strength. Takion's powers come from The Source.
Look for the lightning strikes on the Multiverse Map. Between the Speed Force wall and the Source wall.
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You really haven't.
According to your scan, the Flash says "What I do know is that it's an energy field that is connected to every planet, universe... or... the Omniverse at large"
1. An energy being "connected to the Omniverse" doesn't make it 1-A, it's just a powersource connected to a 1-A thing.
2. Flash himself says there's a lot he doesn't know about the Speed Force, and he hesitates before saying Omniverse.
3. We know the Speed Force was one of the Seven Energies of the Universe granted to Perpetua by the Source to create the multiverse, it's very unlikely based on that arrangement that it's connected to the Omniverse. Flash is not infallible and he himself admits there is much he isn't sure of.
4. Speed Force being 1-A makes no sense in terms of the cosmology.
Where does he say this? Highfather says "That power.... is that from the Source Wall?" There's no mention of it being from Beyond the sphere or "felt right up to the Source Wall." He simply questions if the energy is from the Source Wall. Likewise, it doesn't "take up" the entire multiverse, it's a fundamental force of the multiverse. Gravity is also present throughout the entire multiverse, as is the emotional spectrum, the Collective Unconscious, etc.
And even if all of this were true, it wouldn't make it 1-A
That's not an argument for 1-A
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All right so I discussed this with Firestorm in private, our conclusion is the following (the wording might need some work though):
Post-Crisis Wally's tier: 8-C, up to 4-B (with regular relativistic attacks), up to 3-A, possibly High 3-A with the relativistic mass punch. Low 2-C, possibly 2-A when emotional/at peak.
The reasoning being that Wally when fighting his own villains isn't portrayed a league level. He can reach league level with his relativistic attacks. He scales to Jenni Ognats' relativistic mass which was gonna destroy the universe (and infinite mass = infinite energy). The Speed Force is 2-A for at least touching all parts of infinite timelines. Wally was able to go between iterations of the multiverse/universe since every time that anti-matter hit the universe he could go in the past to fix things (or even future), implying he moved in a second temporal dimension and would thus be able to reach the Pre-Crisis multiverse. However Superman from Earth 2 was not present and Anti-Monitor was described as a threat to the universe most of the time, yet the Anti-matter cannon (which was used to wipe out multiple universes in the OG COIE) was present and different dimensions were mentioned (however the antimatter universe and positive matter universe would also count for different dimensions). (Note that I didn’t start talking about alternate timelines for AM which might change this up a little since a “universe” could be 2-A.)
I then did some further research and came to the conclusion that I didn’t really find any explicit evidence that Anti-Monitor was a universe buster (his Anti-matter cannon seemed to be part of his plan to wipe out the universe), at least not when Wally fought him, so we might have to change low 2-C into High 3-A for using infinite energy to overload Cobalt Blue (assuming he didn’t use the entire 2-A PC Speed Force). However the saving grace is that Wally called Anti-Monitor the strongest being who ever lived. Which should scale him above the likes of Zero Hour Hal and Doctor Fate who are multiverse level+ for being compared to the original Crisis in power.
Edit: oh and the 2-A from AM that Firestorm agreed on was based on him currently being 2-A, if he gets downgraded later then it might affect Wally. Not necessarily though since I have back-up scaling as elaborated on in my extra research.
Post-Crisis Wally's tier: 8-C, up to 4-B (with regular relativistic attacks), up to 3-A, possibly High 3-A with the relativistic mass punch. Low 2-C, possibly 2-A when emotional/at peak.
The reasoning being that Wally when fighting his own villains isn't portrayed a league level. He can reach league level with his relativistic attacks. He scales to Jenni Ognats' relativistic mass which was gonna destroy the universe (and infinite mass = infinite energy). The Speed Force is 2-A for at least touching all parts of infinite timelines. Wally was able to go between iterations of the multiverse/universe since every time that anti-matter hit the universe he could go in the past to fix things (or even future), implying he moved in a second temporal dimension and would thus be able to reach the Pre-Crisis multiverse. However Superman from Earth 2 was not present and Anti-Monitor was described as a threat to the universe most of the time, yet the Anti-matter cannon (which was used to wipe out multiple universes in the OG COIE) was present and different dimensions were mentioned (however the antimatter universe and positive matter universe would also count for different dimensions). (Note that I didn’t start talking about alternate timelines for AM which might change this up a little since a “universe” could be 2-A.)
I then did some further research and came to the conclusion that I didn’t really find any explicit evidence that Anti-Monitor was a universe buster (his Anti-matter cannon seemed to be part of his plan to wipe out the universe), at least not when Wally fought him, so we might have to change low 2-C into High 3-A for using infinite energy to overload Cobalt Blue (assuming he didn’t use the entire 2-A PC Speed Force). However the saving grace is that Wally called Anti-Monitor the strongest being who ever lived. Which should scale him above the likes of Zero Hour Hal and Doctor Fate who are multiverse level+ for being compared to the original Crisis in power.
Edit: oh and the 2-A from AM that Firestorm agreed on was based on him currently being 2-A, if he gets downgraded later then it might affect Wally. Not necessarily though since I have back-up scaling as elaborated on in my extra research.
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Post-Flashpoint stuff should be discussed in a different thread or AFTER we solve the Post-Crisis scaling (Firestorm and I will also talk about how the RMP scales to the league going forward). The force barrier feat still needs it’s context evaluated and we still need to discuss what exactly happened. So the feat was brought up too early and it was also called an outlier too early. Considering the scale of Post-Flashpoint Speed Force is bigger than mere 2-A and Post-Flashpoint vs Post-Crisis Speed Force is a discussion for later.
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It will be noted as a suicide move on Wally’s page, however it is a suicide move he would be able to perform at any moment. Maybe it is a sort of chain reaction but the energy needed to cause it might be more than the power needed to destroy the universe...
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We’ll create a Rebirth page or key for Wally yeah. After we finished Post-Crisis business. Barry’s page(s) also need(s) to be updated.
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lol.
Being an omniversal energy means it beyond Multiverse. So Limbo, which is 1-A, surpasses Monitor Sphere and Source Wall.
Flash speaks confidently.
Comic book set after Death Metal.
Why did Highfather talk about Speed Force? Because he feels the Speed Force energy. So where did he feel? Source Wall of course.
Really? xD
Being the direct energy of The Source = 1A.
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I believe it's very iffy to determine scaling off of a single character statement.
Being connected to a 1-A realm doesn't make the energy 1-A.
The ellipses before and after he says that say otherwise, he also caveats that there's much he doesn't know. Then he transitions through various explanations, with uncertainty being emphasized on the Omniverse portion.
And?
This isn't in the scan. He felt the Speed Force, he never said he felt it near the Source Wall, he asked if the power was from the Source Wall.
No it doesn't. Are you saying the Source is incapable of creating energies that arent 1-A? Because that's absurd.
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Yes, you are right but Speed Force, beyond the Limbo and Monitor Sphere. This is 1-A.
He says there are things he doesn't know and then he explains what he knows. Confident when he speaks. Why don't you accept this? Barry says this. And you claim otherwise. Your proof is ridiculous.
If he didn't feel it on the Source Wall, why would he ask if he came from there?
No. What I say has nothing to do with what you say.
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There’s also a statement of him wanting control over all time and space, that probably supports 2-A due to infinite timelines. Don’t forget that this is still Anti-Monitor btw, it being his Pre-Crisis self who is currently accepted as 2-A on the wiki is not out of the question.
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No it isn't. The location of an energy doesn't make it 1-A. I don't think this is something we should have to spell out, but this is fiction, yes? Here is a demonstration:
In my personal fiction DC Comics (Deagonx Comics) it's just like DC, and the Speed Force reaches all the way into the full Omniverse! However, it's only 3-A, it's full power can only be used to destroy a single universe at best. Ta-da! We've proved that the Speed Force being far-reaching isn't proof of 1-A, because this is fiction and things only work the way you say they do. There are certainly things with logically can't be weaker than a certain tier, if a guy destroys a multiverse, he's multiverse. But the idea that an energy is 1-A simply because it's omnipresent is stupid. It's not a logical necessity which makes it an assumption, one you don't have any evidence for.
You're just repeating yourself. You say "confident when he speaks" yet you're ignoring that they literally have him hesitate and bounce between several answers. You haven't responded to any of my points, you just repeated yourself and said "your proof is ridiculous." If you don't have a counterargument to what I said, we can just drop this since you've conceded the point.
Most likely because the Speed Force is powerful and he, as a New God, deifies the Source Wall and assumes very powerful energies are from the Wall. Or he detected that the energy of the Source is present in the Speed Force, and it reminded him of the Wall. Who knows? All we know for sure is that what you said isn't in the scan.
Then why are you saying "being an energy of the Source" makes it 1-A? Is the Source not capable of making a weaker energy?
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I mean, a statement of him wanting control or him accomplishing it? The two are very very different.
Uh, sure, but regardless of what is accepted on the wiki, you said it yourself:
You're right. There is no explicit evidence that Anti-Monitor is a universe buster. He uses technology to channel anti-matter, not his own power. The fact of the matter is that he isn't 2-A in CoIE. It's just a factoid that's been repeated ad infinitum because the story is too old for most people to care to read, fans of a verse don't like their characters being downgraded, and "infinite earths were destroyed." But when there were 5 universes left and the team destroyed the starlight collector that was pulling the earths towards the anti-matter universe (this is what facilitated their destruction, not AM's power), his plan was foiled and he had to build an Anti-Matter cannon to destroy the remaining five. This is wholly incompatible with him being a 2-A being.
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Yes it is.
The omnipresence of energy is by its nature 1-A. You have no evidence to contradict it. Except for your nonsense sampling of course.
What I do know is it's an energy field that is connected to every planet, universe... or... The omniverse at large. The reason he hesitated is that wally has disappeared and is pondering hard to provide just the right information. So it has nothing to do with what you say.
See the page. Everything between Microverse and Source Wall is affected.
Takion is the avatar of The Source. Do you think Takion has a weak energy from The Source?
DivineAura44
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Can we stop with this argument?
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He accomplished his goal at one point in the comic it appears since he wiped out all positive matter minus Wally.
You misunderstood me, I was talking about the AM in this comic, since we don’t know how he did what he did in “COIE” in Post-Crisis, unless this isn’t Post-Crisis AM (temporal dimensions are a pain). This does not somehow debunk COIE, everything else is derailing so make your own thread for that.
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Sorry. I stop debating.
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Thank you
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Bruh Wally being 8-C is actually some horrible downplay, the fact that Wally showed to be on pair with Superman, Wonder Women, and Shazam without going full power proves that his 8-C should be removed with 4-B as a low solid end.
Rest of it seems alright I think? Still leaning towards Tier Low 1-C
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According to what?
You are literally pulling this out of thin air.
According to what?
The Speed Force is only a part of Takion's power, and Takion hasn't been a part of DC in 13 years.
Nonetheless, as you say there is not evidence for this.
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Dosent change anything at all,I just mostly see you guys on this wiki for years like saying outlier to comic book verses its becoming a habit.
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Speed force scales above the bleed,its low 1-C.
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I’d also like to mention that since it seems Wally seemed to be pulling more from the Speed Force when he fought Cobalt Blue than when he fought Anti-Monitor, that it’s plausible that he did in fact draw upon the entire 2-A PC Speed Force to defeat Blue. This is of course using the 2-A interpretation of AM.
For the rest I’d recommend people to stay clear of the thread until Firestorm comments again.
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For the rest I’d recommend people to stay clear of the thread until Firestorm comments again.
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When I say that he isn’t explicitly a universe buster that doesn’t debunk him having universal+ or multiversal+ AP, there’s a thing called AoE fallacy which means that characters may have the AP necessary to destroy something but not the range necessary. Also pretty sure there was extra context in COIE that explains why he couldn’t just wipe out the rest of the multiverse and needed the Anti-matter cannon, something to do with Monitor and a Nether-verse iirc.
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Because they are outliers. Blame comic book writers for writing whatever feats get their gonads rocking that morning with no rhyme or reason.
Anyways, we're going off topic.
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They aren’t tho well some of them are consistent enough
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I think it's just you guys who don't wanna agree. Anyways I leave it and that.
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