- 3,270
- 1,096
There’s no outlier with no anti feat. Plus Speed force moves the whole multiverse
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Post-Crisis Wally West 2-A CRT
- Thread starter Alphaapexnep00
- Start date
- Status
- 7,635
- 7,801
Those changes to the Cosmology were done after the fact. When the Post-Crisis writers put that they channeled the entire speed force to stop Thawn or Superboy, I'm pretty sure they didn't intend it to be 2-A/Low 1-C feat.
All that new stuff should be applied in the Post-Flashpoint section.
All that new stuff should be applied in the Post-Flashpoint section.
- 10,398
- 4,564
What does non-speed force tapped even mean? Wally always taps into the Speed Force for his powers, but to varying degrees. Unless you mean that one time where he was running half-in and half-out of it? But he can later on do better feats without running half-in so that clearly isn't a prerequisite to tap into it to a great degree. Due to him having a variable tier based on a tier 1 construct, I find it hard to believe that it's an outlier considering it doesn't scale to anyone. Also would the CRT affect this AM's tier, Spectre stays 2-A right?
Well when he was fighting AM he just used sheer speed to ram through him so I wouldn't really compare it to his RMP but more to Barry destroying the anti-matter cannon. Wally doesn't describe his RMP as his hardest punch ever, he says he never had the brutality to try a stunt like that before. That doesn't mean he can't tap into the SF further to just use sheer energy instead of relativistic effects to take someone down, not to mention that Wally probably makes a distinction between humans and cosmic entities when it comes to brutality and holding back. Also was the RMP before or after he fought AM? Cause I see a great powercreep in that story if it's after, from RMP to AM to defeating Cobalt Blue, so it'd make sense in context.
Bart absorbing the entire thing should be tier 1, not sure if he can use that energy but it's still inside of him. I'm also nor sure where you're getting 2-C from in your proposal.
Our cosmology is still composite so for constructs that aren't affected by retcons I don't see the problem, the map isn't really necessary to scale the SF to tier 1 though.
Hmm, are you certain about this? Since it seemed to me like Wally was able to go to the original COIE just fine (Hypertime)?
- 10,398
- 4,564
Half of what I brought up was PC and I already explained how the SF didn’t get retconned and how our cosmology is still composite. When did they channel the entire thing to stop Thawne? Also wouldn’t keeping the multiverse moving be 2-A regardless? There's also a statement of it touching the entirety of the multiverse in PC as well. It’s also described as the fourth dimension (probably time) in Post-Crisis which probably means it’s all of time in the multiverse back then (at least).
Last edited:
- 10,398
- 4,564
FanofRPGs also had the following to say about 2-A a while back:
I think it's fine, note it's solely for Wally West .
Wally is consistently shown as comparable to faster than Barry Allen, the literal source and conduit of the Speedforce.
For some reason, Wally is just a unique outlier among heroes and hopefully there is an explanation why.
Superman has his, on why despite being tier 6-4 he manages to not be splattered by tier 2-1s on a regular basis and outsmart them.
It's because the plot literally revolves around him.
Wally probably has one too.
My own explanation can be found in this thread since his power and speed vary together with his emotions.
As such I don't see 2-A Wally for fighting AM as an outlier since we know the Speed Force is at least 2-A in Post-Crisis and Wally is better than Barry who's the literal generator of the Speed Force and Wally mainlines it.
I think it's fine, note it's solely for Wally West .
Wally is consistently shown as comparable to faster than Barry Allen, the literal source and conduit of the Speedforce.
For some reason, Wally is just a unique outlier among heroes and hopefully there is an explanation why.
Superman has his, on why despite being tier 6-4 he manages to not be splattered by tier 2-1s on a regular basis and outsmart them.
It's because the plot literally revolves around him.
Wally probably has one too.
My own explanation can be found in this thread since his power and speed vary together with his emotions.
As such I don't see 2-A Wally for fighting AM as an outlier since we know the Speed Force is at least 2-A in Post-Crisis and Wally is better than Barry who's the literal generator of the Speed Force and Wally mainlines it.
- 3,270
- 1,096
Also don't forget emotional Wally disrupting Speed Force in the Flash War
- 3,270
- 1,096
I mean yeah, but we should listen not to people but to their arguments
- 10,398
- 4,564
That's true, when it comes to Wally so am I though. Don't worry we'll figure it out, he still needs to respond on why he has 2-C for some feats anyways.
- 7,904
- 14,966
The power of the speed force is extremely inconsistent, I think it's better to examine the feats in context than to rely on a hodge-podge of scans across various points in continuity to make a point. I agree with Firestorm atm.
Within the context of the story that this feat is taking place in we have to ask ourselves: Does it make sense for Wally to be 1-A here? Are all of his opponents 1-A? Is Wally ever shown or indicated to be able to destroy a universe or go toe-to-toe with someone that can? Etc. The thing about it that makes me uncomfortable is all of the high-infinity multiversal scaling that comes from vague feats almost exclusively involving things that aren't universes. Destroying or making Hypertime, for example, is sometimes attributed as 1-A but it's accomplished by beings who themselves are certainly not able to destroy multiverses at will.
This makes a lot of sense to me, and he is higher when directly channeling the speed force, but even in the context of a Speedster using "all of the Speed Force" or something, I don't think it's so straightforward as to scale them directly to the Speed Force and tie in things like "The Speed Force can destroy Hypertime so it's 1-A therefore the Speedster is 1-A."
Within the context of the story that this feat is taking place in we have to ask ourselves: Does it make sense for Wally to be 1-A here? Are all of his opponents 1-A? Is Wally ever shown or indicated to be able to destroy a universe or go toe-to-toe with someone that can? Etc. The thing about it that makes me uncomfortable is all of the high-infinity multiversal scaling that comes from vague feats almost exclusively involving things that aren't universes. Destroying or making Hypertime, for example, is sometimes attributed as 1-A but it's accomplished by beings who themselves are certainly not able to destroy multiverses at will.
- 3,270
- 1,096
It's not inconsistent as long as there are no anti feats
- 7,904
- 14,966
You don't need a direct anti-feat for there to be inconsistency.
For example, if you have a character who in 99 out of 100 showings is capable of destroying a planet, but in one scan he destroys a solar system, that's an inconsistency. If he is Solar System level, yes, he can destroy a planet, but the fact is that having wildly different showings is inconsistent even if there's not a hard limit in the form of an anti-feat.
- 336
- 105
It's not like we need to see characters consistently destroy things on that level due to how stories are because well the story would be boring if they consistently destroyed these structures. We can't just dismiss their feats on the lack of those feats when there's no anti feats.
- 7,904
- 14,966
The definition of an outlier is a data point that is much bigger or smaller than the next nearest data point. Characters with 99 planetary feats and 1 star-level feat shouldn't necessarily be star-level unless they have a decent amount of instances in which that level of power is demonstrated, implied, or can be scaled to an opponent.
- 827
- 171
- Thread starter
- #377
If there isn't anti feat I don't see how it's inconsistent.
- 827
- 171
- Thread starter
- #380
If only the comments made more sense.
- 827
- 171
- Thread starter
- #382
I never made it your problem you are the one who chose to respond to it.
- 10,398
- 4,564
I never wanted to scale Wally to the full SF though...
- 7,904
- 14,966
Commenting on a thread without being willing to provide any substantive argument is a waste of everyone's time and should be avoided.
I know Greenshifter, there are some people who do and that's primarily who I am addressing, as well as the inconsistencies in the SF's power.
I know Greenshifter, there are some people who do and that's primarily who I am addressing, as well as the inconsistencies in the SF's power.
- 15,593
- 22,894
What Tier would the full SF be, anyway? I’ve heard both Low 1-C and 1-A be thrown around
- 3,270
- 1,096
That means he just wasn't using full power. Again, no anti feats no contradictions, as simple as that
- 3,270
- 1,096
I'd settle with Low 1-C
- 7,904
- 14,966
An inconsistency isn't the same as a contradiction, but assuming that in 99% of stories a character simply "wasn't using their full power" to justify an extreme outlier is poor logic.
- 10,398
- 4,564
Depends on the cosmology we have and if we splice between eras or not. At the very least it’s 2-A in Post-Crisis, which is enough for the purpose of this thread.
- 9,266
- 3,411
its above the bleed so like low 1-c
- 827
- 171
- Thread starter
- #391
Now my reasons why I said it doesn't make sense. You said "character with 99 planet feats and 1 star feat shouldn't necessary be star lvl". But this is wrong. Cause they could restrain themselves from producing such feats. Only doing so in full power. Also if we put this in a graph. Let's assume a character performs 99 feats and 1 star feat and doesn't show any sign of it decreasing/anti feat it isn't an outlier it's a growth.
- 7,904
- 14,966
They could, but assuming based on one outlier that they are constantly limiting themselves to a significantly lower power level is often incompatible with the storylines themselves.
Then there would have to be some canon explanation for this growth.
- 827
- 171
- Thread starter
- #393
There is no need for an explanation for the growth of powers. dc is known for retconning and Giving higher lvl of strength.
Last edited:
- 7,904
- 14,966
This is really just wank. This kind of attitude is just throwing storylines to the wind in order to try and make characters as strong as possible for battleboards even when they aren't.
- 10,398
- 4,564
Since when?
Ehm that’s kinda what we have to do for cosmological structures. Get multiple pieces of information from different comics and make them all fit together. I also don’t see a problem with the feats I brought up, never heard anyone say there is any missing context to it either, it’s all pretty straightforward.
For now I’d only apply this to Bart since we actually see the consequences of his actions on his fellow speedsters. Even then he doesn’t have to use the entirety of it, he just absorbed the entirety of it. SBP was just roadkill compared to Bart which is still pretty impressive. The scan with Wally is more to back up Wally being able to use a “significant” (for us) portion of it.
I mean Hypertime contains all the multiverses soooo... I’m not sure if you’re referring to Perpetua and the Monitors here or not but these guys are still multiverse busters on-site sooo.
Tbf this does counter the “inconsistency” argument pretty decently. Unlike other characters with Wally we already know that theoretically he could do feats on this level.
- 15,593
- 22,894
Isn’t “they aren’t using their full power in most stories” an actual canonical explanation for DC Superheroes though? A lot of heroes explicitly have no-kill rules and thus hold back in most stories. In this case Speedsters only perform higher end feats by channeling great amounts of Speed Force energy, but they don’t do so all the time.
- 827
- 171
- Thread starter
- #397
So you have no counter then you call it wank
- 7,904
- 14,966
In different stories, the Speed Force is separate from time, sometimes it borders time, sometimes it has the entrance to the timestream, sometimes time is contained within it. The idea of it moving reality/multiverse only came about after Flashpoint, et cetera. What the Speed Force is, and what it does, has been subject to a lot of retcons and changes. At one point it was even called the Fourth Dimensions.
I'm not referring to the structures themselves, I'm referring to feats.
Where has it been said that Hypertime contains the multiverse, much less multiple multiverses? To the extent of my knowledge, Hypertime has been most consistently described as time, the 4th dimension, or something that contains all timelines.
Being on-site doesn't make it correct. That's why we're in the CRT forum.
Yes, I don't object to the concept in entirety, it just shouldn't be assumed to justify extreme outliers.
The counter is that your approach breaks canon in most situations and is solely based on wanting characters you like to be powerful on battleboards rather than have them be consistent with what's actually in the stories.
- 827
- 171
- Thread starter
- #399
And I already explained why it's consistent. You haven't proved why it's inconsistent.
- 7,904
- 14,966
No, you haven't. Though this may simply be a case of not knowing what consistent means:
Consistent: acting or done in the same way over time, especially so as to be fair or accurate.
Emphasis on "the same way." Considering a character who was portrayed as planetary repeatedly over a long period of time as solar system level because of a single feat is, by definition, inconsistent.
- Status
