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Post-Crisis Wally West 2-A CRT

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Not open for further replies.
Deagonx said:
No, you haven't. Though this may simply be a case of not knowing what consistent means:

Consistent: acting or done in the same way over time, especially so as to be fair or accurate.

Emphasis on "the same way." Considering a character who was portrayed as planetary repeatedly over a long period of time as solar system level because of a single feat is, by definition, inconsistent.
Click to expand...
I know what consistent means. Plus there is also growth. The speed force also performed a lot higher feats showing growth in power.
 
Deagonx said:
In different stories, the Speed Force is separate from time, sometimes it borders time, sometimes it has the entrance to the timestream, sometimes time is contained within it. The idea of it moving reality/multiverse only came about after Flashpoint, et cetera. What the Speed Force is, and what it does, has been subject to a lot of retcons and changes. At one point it was even called the Fourth Dimensions.
Click to expand...
The Speed Force touches all parts of the multiverse and the speed force wall borders the timestream. Contradiction solved. Also when exactly was time described as being contained within it? Yeah it’s called the fourth dimension by Johnny Quick when he didn’t even fully knew how it functioned or what it’s name was. The fourth dimension doesn’t automatically mean time (or not just time of a singular universe) and if it’s later elaborated on to be something bigger than just time then that doesn’t contradict. I’m also not convinced it wasn’t established to be the force that keeps reality/time moving pre-flashpoint.
Deagonx said:
I'm not referring to the structures themselves, I'm referring to feats
Click to expand...
Most of what I brought up is straightforward, even if you argue that Wally couldn’t bust Hypertime regularly and needed outside help that doesn’t change my argument and there’s more than 1 thing putting Anti-life on the level of the source. If you mean you want the issues, then sure I can do some looking around, this wasn’t my CRT though so I’m not that prepared. That said OP might be willing to help out on the specific sources of the scans.
Deagonx said:
Where has it been said that Hypertime contains the multiverse, much less multiple multiverses? To the extent of my knowledge, Hypertime has been most consistently described as time, the 4th dimension, or something that contains all timelines.
Click to expand...
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...olistic_Stance_on_the_Overall_Canon#Hypertime and in the context of Flash comics you can visually see it.
Deagonx said:
Being on-site doesn't make it correct. That's why we're in the CRT forum.
Click to expand...
Then it’s derailing, make your own CRT (again) then.
Deagonx said:
Yes, I don't object to the concept in entirety, it just shouldn't be assumed to justify extreme outliers.
Click to expand...
That’s fair, I don’t think it’s an extreme outlier in this case though. Even Firestorm saw some 2-C stuff as valid.
 
Greenshifter said:
The Speed Force touches all parts of the multiverse and the speed force wall borders the timestream. Contradiction solved. Also when exactly was time described as being contained within it? Yeah it’s called the fourth dimension by Johnny Quick when he didn’t even fully knew how it functioned or what it’s name was. The fourth dimension doesn’t automatically mean time (or not just time of a singular universe) and if it’s later elaborated on to be something bigger than just time then that doesn’t contradict. I’m also not convinced it wasn’t established to be the force that keeps reality/time moving pre-flashpoint.
Click to expand...
My purpose in mentioning these things was not to try and hammer out the dozens of conflicting backstories that the Speed Force has. I'll list some specific ones again for your own research, but I'm not going to drag out a giant discussion where we try and minimize the contradictions. It's a fact that the Speed Force has been retconned repeatedly, that was the only thing I was pointing out.

Thawne stated that the Speed Force was time itself in The Flash (Volume 3) #12
In The Flash: The Fastest Man Alive #6 Bart Allen volunteered to absorb the entire Speed Force in order to stop Superboy-Prime
Then in The Flash (Volume 4) #8 it changes again, now Speed Force isn't time, it pushes time and space forward.

Greenshifter said:
even if you argue that Wally couldn’t bust Hypertime regularly and needed outside help that doesn’t change my argument and there’s more than 1 thing putting Anti-life on the level of the source.
Click to expand...
In recent years the Source has received a huge upgrade in it's cosmic position, and the ALE has stayed local to either the New Gods or the Multiverse itself. The equivalency of Anti-Life to the Source has certainly been retconned, and the ALE itself has been changed over and over again throughout the years.

Greenshifter said:
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...olistic_Stance_on_the_Overall_Canon#Hypertime and in the context of Flash comics you can visually see it.
Click to expand...
None of those scans say that Hypertime contains multiverse, and the flash comic just shows different events in the timeline, why are you equating those to universe or multiverses?

Greenshifter said:
Then it’s derailing, make your own CRT (again) then.
Click to expand...
It's not derailing at all. I'm not trying to argue for a revision here, but that doesn't mean I need to strictly adhere to current ratings within a larger discussion.
 
Deagonx said:
I'll list some specific ones again for your own research
Click to expand...
I’d prefer to actually get the scans rather than look them up for myself in a comic I currently don’t have time to read through. Not that it matters too much since Firestorm didn’t want to use Post-Flashpoint stuff anyways and I don’t see the relevance of Bart as a retcon. At best you can argue it got retconned once from pre- to post-flashpoint even though it’s not supposed to have been retconned. Main point being that even if the speed force were time, it wouldn’t contradict it touching all universes as thus being 2-A in size.
Deagonx said:
In recent years the Source has received a huge upgrade in it's cosmic position, and the ALE has stayed local to either the New Gods or the Multiverse itself. The equivalency of Anti-Life to the Source has certainly been retconned, and the ALE itself has been changed over and over again throughout the years
Click to expand...
Post-Crisis Source was pretty busted already, ALE is still 5D at least. It being retconned doesn’t matter since we can only use Post-Crisis apparently. Also doesn’t change my main point, I was going for tier 1 to prove Wally using 2-A energy isn’t a problem.

Deagonx said:
None of those scans say that Hypertime contains multiverse, and the flash comic just shows different events in the timeline, why are you equating those to universe or multiverses?
Click to expand...
Irey and Jay literally don’t exist anymore at this point since they’re Wally’s kids in Post-Crisis. The entire point of that dialogue and the aftermath is Wally not being able to get his kids back since they’re in a different iteration of the multiverse, said iteration being contained in Hypertime. Also the scans on Prince’s blog do say it contains all timelines and mentions other multiverses.
Deagonx said:
It's not derailing at all. I'm not trying to argue for a revision here, but that doesn't mean I need to strictly adhere to current ratings within a larger discussion.
Click to expand...
It is, you’re kinda doing the same as Mikebro when he brings up 1-B Bleed. It’s been rejected before so you shouldn’t use it without making a CRT first. I only bring up new information and base myself on the current pages, and I most certainly avoid claiming things that would need another CRT for it to work, hence me not exactly tiering the tier 1 constructs (since that’d lead to a new discussion) but just mentioning them.
 
Greenshifter said:
I’d prefer to actually get the scans rather than look them up for myself in a comic I currently don’t have time to read through.
Click to expand...
I mean that's fine, but this discussion isn't terribly important. Like I said, I was just pointing out that the Speed Force has undergone a lot of changes over the years.

Greenshifter said:
The entire point of that dialogue and the aftermath is Wally not being able to get his kids back since they’re in a different iteration of the multiverse, said iteration being contained in Hypertime
Click to expand...
Because they are in a different timeline. Timelines are contained in Hypertime, not the actual multiverse/universe itself.

Greenshifter said:
It’s been rejected before so you shouldn’t use it without making a CRT first.
Click to expand...
I didn't actually bring anyone up, you brought up Perpetua and the Monitors unprompted.
 
Deagonx said:
Like I said, I was just pointing out that the Speed Force has undergone a lot of changes over the years.
Click to expand...
Well thanks for your feedback, I am going to make a Speed Force blog so your input is appreciated. I was gonna make it before this CRT but OP decided otherwise 😅. If you want you can help out though.
Deagonx said:
Because they are in a different timeline. Timelines are contained in Hypertime, not the actual multiverse/universe itself.
Click to expand...
No like seriously, Wally got retconned out of existence in Post-Flashpoint so his kids did as well. Wally managed to cling on due to the Speed Force... sadly his kids didn't... In fact there's an explicit statement that it isn't just an alternate timeline iirc, gimme a moment I'll look for it. If you want to argue it only contains the timelines of previous multiverses rather than the multiverses themselves then I'm not sure if that'd work cosmologically speaking, it'd at least be as big as the regular multiverse though. edit: eh a regular timeline is a space-time (wiki standards), which is a universe. Just so we're on the same page here.
Deagonx said:
I didn't actually bring anyone up, you brought up Perpetua and the Monitors unprompted.
Click to expand...
I assumed you were talking about them, you didn't deny this, however if I was wrong then my apologies.
 
Greenshifter said:
If you want to argue it only contains the timelines of previous multiverses rather than the multiverses themselves then I'm not sure if that'd work cosmologically speaking, it'd at least be as big as the regular multiverse though.
Click to expand...
I mean, timelines don't have like, size. They're temporal variances in the 4th dimension of the multiverse.

Greenshifter said:
I assumed you were talking about them, you didn't deny this, however if I was wrong then my apologies.
Click to expand...
There is a swath of concepts and beings in DC who scale to various parts of cosmology and are thus rated as universe busters or multiverse busters, even though they almost certainly aren't within the context of their stories. Yes, Perpetua and the Monitors are examples of this, but there's literally dozens.
 
Deagonx said:
I mean, timelines don't have like, size. They're temporal variances in the 4th dimension of the multiverse.
Click to expand...
Oh but they do on the wiki, they're 4D hypervolumes. A timeline contains uncountably infinite snapshots of a material universe, see the tiering system Q&A.
Deagonx said:
There is a swath of concepts and beings in DC who scale to various parts of cosmology and are thus rated as universe busters or multiverse busters, even though they almost certainly aren't within the context of their stories.
Click to expand...
Well I'm not sure if it's relevant here but if it were then I'm gonna need more info than that. Still seems like something better suited for a different CRT.
 
Greenshifter said:
Oh but they do on the wiki, they're 4D hypervolumes. A timeline contains uncountably infinite snapshots of a material universe, see the tiering system Q&A.
Click to expand...
I don't see how you are deriving that statement from what's in the Q&A, in fact I think it pretty much directly supports the opposite conclusion:

This structure can then be generalized to any amounts of dimensions, and is also the reason destroying a spacetime continuum is a greater feat than destroying only the contents of the physical universe
Click to expand...

It treats the temporal dimensions and spatial dimensions as separate, with temporal dimensions serving as a frame-by-frame account of what happens within the spatial dimensions. Remember, a snapshot is a picture of an object, not the object itself.

Greenshifter said:
Well I'm not sure if it's relevant here but if it were then I'm gonna need more info than that. Still seems like something better suited for a different CRT.
Click to expand...
It wasn't a stand-alone comment that was supposed to snowball into a larger discussion, it was just a tag-on for my concerns about considering the Speed Force 1-A and scaling things to that.
 
Greenshifter said:
This clearly implies his kids don't just exist in an alternate timeline.
Click to expand...
Uh... what? Your scans say the opposite almost explicitly.

"Separate and different, but with no memory of the previous incarnation. Different worlds or dimensions would explain this. But this is not that. This is the same event repeating itself on the same world at a different time."

He literally says "this isn't a situation of alternate universes, it's a situation of alternate timelines."
 
For the record, I think that Deagonx makes sense above.
 
I’ll comment to this tomorrow. My current discussion with Deagonx isn’t really relevant towards Wally’s tiering anymore anyways.
 
Antvasima said:
For the record, I think that Deagonx makes sense above.
Click to expand...
You do realize that his last comment implies that Post-Crisis and Post-Flashpoint are mere alternate timelines right? Something that would easily allow cross-scaling, which I know you are against.
 
Like I previously mentioned, a speed force user not can have multiversal feats, while not consistent, it is still logical.

So a higher key for flash would be good as at those instances he is accessing a higher amount of the speed force and performing these feats. It's also the most consistent and logical scaling if you ask me.

Just giving my thoughts on my favorite dc character.
 
Making a Post-Flashpoint Wally profile sometime later
Firestorm808 said:
@Antvasima

In the 25 years of Post-Crisis Speedster history, Wally's interaction with the Semi-beaten Anti-Monitor in Flash Vol 2 #150 would be the highest non-speed force tapped feat at At least 2-C/2-A (See Anti-Monitor pending CRT). I consider this an outlier.

Flash has consistently shown that his heaviest attacks on his own rely on relativity. In the same Chain Lightning Storyline Flash Vol 2 #148, Wally describes his Dwarf Star RMP as his hardest punch ever, going all out because of time travel logic. Ripping the universe via his IMP at exactly the speed of light would be High 3-A/3-A since nothing implies it destroying the timeline or affecting time.

As for feats tapping into the speed force, we have Wally defeating Cobalt Blue, Bart Allen volunteered to absorb the entire Speed Force so that he would be fast enough to stop Prime, and Barry traveling back in time to save his mom causing the Flashpoint Timeline. I would rate their use of the Speed force in this era as 2-C.

The multiverse map wasn't introduced until Multiversity in 2014, so we shouldn't apply that structure to past stories and feats.
Click to expand...
I suppose right now only 2-C is on the table?
 
Greenshifter said:
Post-Crisis and Post-Flashpoint are mere alternate timelines right? Something that would easily allow cross-scaling
Click to expand...
I never said anything like that, and characters can't be scaled across alternate versions of themselves without a separate key.
 
Deagonx said:
My purpose in mentioning these things was not to try and hammer out the dozens of conflicting backstories that the Speed Force has. I'll list some specific ones again for your own research, but I'm not going to drag out a giant discussion where we try and minimize the contradictions. It's a fact that the Speed Force has been retconned repeatedly, that was the only thing I was pointing out.

Thawne stated that the Speed Force was time itself in The Flash (Volume 3) #12
In The Flash: The Fastest Man Alive #6 Bart Allen volunteered to absorb the entire Speed Force in order to stop Superboy-Prime
Then in The Flash (Volume 4) #8 it changes again, now Speed Force isn't time, it pushes time and space forward.


In recent years the Source has received a huge upgrade in it's cosmic position, and the ALE has stayed local to either the New Gods or the Multiverse itself. The equivalency of Anti-Life to the Source has certainly been retconned, and the ALE itself has been changed over and over again throughout the years.


None of those scans say that Hypertime contains multiverse, and the flash comic just shows different events in the timeline, why are you equating those to universe or multiverses?


It's not derailing at all. I'm not trying to argue for a revision here, but that doesn't mean I need to strictly adhere to current ratings within a larger discussion.
Click to expand...
Sorry dude but the Low 1-C Flash believers are legit
 
@Antvasima

Here's a timeline of the major Speed Force/Hypertime-related feats and statements.
I still see "Using the entire Speed Force" in Post-Crisis only having 2-C feats. Post-Flashpoint should be handled seprately.

Post-Crisis​

Terminal Velocity​

  • The Flash (Volume 2) #97
    • (Flash #97, pg. 3) The Speed Force is the energy field all speedsters have tapped into to generate their powers. Image
  • The Flash Vol 2 #99, March 1995
    • 15
      • Wally uses the formula again to slow down time and move faster than the energies of the Speed Force in order to give him more time with Linda before he’s absorbed into the Speed Force. At this point, he was moving as fast as he was before activating the formula as he was using it the first time, so it doesn’t make him a set level of fast, just enhances whatever level he’s currently at. Image 1 Image 2 Image 3
  • The Flash Vol 2 #100, April 1995
    • During the story 'Terminal Velocity' Wally was running at the speed of light and entered the Speed Force; however, he survived. He now has a direct line to the Speed Force and his powers are enhanced dramatically. This is when he gains access to new abilities, faster speeds, and begins his path to becoming the Wally West most people know today.
    • (Flash #100, pg. 37) After entering and exiting the Speed Force for the first time, Wally states he has a direct line to channeling its power and is now moving faster than he ever did before. Image
    • (Flash #100, pg. 37) After entering and exiting the Speed Force for the first time, Wally states he has a direct line to channeling its power. Image
    • (Flash #108, pg. 9) No longer needs to consume calories due to the Speed Force powering him. Image
  • The Flash Vol 2 #109, January 1996
    • The Speed Force is described as an Extra-dimensional force
    • (Flash #109, pg. 21) Wally is tied too closely to the Speed Force to have his speed drained. Image
  • The Flash (Volume 2) #110
    • (Flash #110, pg. 4) During this period, Wally was holding back from his full potential speed in order to keep from being absorbed back into the Speed Force. Image
  • The Flash (Volume 2) #111
    • The Speed Force is described as extra-dimensional again.
    • (Flash #111, pg. 13) Shares his speed with Savitar in order for both of them to enter the Speed Force. Image
    • (Flash #111, pg. 15) At the point where he fights Savitar, he can now enter the Speed Force as well as simultaneously lending his speed to another to help them enter it as well. So, entering the Speed Force is no longer something that requires his full effort. Image 1 Image 2 Image 3
    • (Flash #111, pg. 18) Savitar is consumed and becomes one with the Speed Force. Wally is able to find his anchor and escape the Speed Force. Image
  • Wonder Woman Plus Jesse Quick Vol 1 #1 January 1997
    • Christina has used the secret scroll of Hermes to open a mystical pathway that accelerates a runner's speed a hundredfold. She plans on using it to accelerate into the speed force.
    • A speedster's "terminal velocity" is the barrier field of the Speed Force

Emergency Stop​

  • The Flash Vol 2 #131, November 1997
    • (Flash #131, pg. 15) Forms living speed force energy around him to create armor that allows him to run even with broken legs. Image 1 Image 2
  • The Flash Vol 2 #132, December 1997
    • (Flash #132, pg. 4) Wally states that his suit is made of “pure speed force condensed into three-dimensional space.” Image
    • (Flash #132, pg. 14) Shifts his perceptions up to “quantum stillness,” which is likely referring to Planck Time. Image

The Black Flash​

  • The Flash Vol 2 #141 September 1998
    • (Flash #141, pg. 4) Wally’s connection to the speed force (even though it’s currently been severed/inactive) prevents him from being affected by the time stop of the Black Flash’s presence. Image
      • It was unclear to me whether or not Wally resisting this time stop was due to his speed or a time-related power, however, while fighting Zoom, Wally confirmed that his powers are not temporal in nature, meaning this feat was due to his speed alone.
    • (Flash #141, pg. 4) Wally was able to resist a time stop with a greatly weakened connection to the Speed Force (and Wally’s powers are kinetic in nature, not time-based). Effectively, Wally has begun to perform immeasurable speed feats without fully tapping into the Speed Force anymore. Image
    • (Flash #141, pg. 13) Outruns the Black Flash, described as death. Image
    • After tricking Black Flash, Wally runs along with the Big Bang and moves into the Speed Force.

Cobalt Blue​

  • The Flash Vol 2 #143, December 1998
    • (Flash #143, pg. 7) Wally’s new suit is made of Speed Force energy. It is frictionless and self-repairing. Image

Chain Lightning​

  • The Kingdom Vol 1 #2, February 1999
    • Hypertime is introduced as alternate New Earth Timelines
    • Hypertime, the overarching and interconnected web of timelines and realities, presumably existed for almost as long as creation itself. Events in the Central Timeline often create temporal ripples, creating divergent paths of history that exist on their own separate timelines. These timelines occasionally intersect, resulting in changes to history that are usually not even noticed by the inhabitants of a timeline. It is also possible to enter the space between Hypertimelines, where all possible worlds are visible through an endless series of dimensional "windows."
  • The Flash Vol 2 #150, July 1999| Mark Waid, Brian Augustyn
    • 29
      • Can mainline the Speed Force so directly that he’s unaffected by Cobalt Blue absorbing his speed energy, despite that being precisely what CB’s power is, because he’s tapping into an infinite amount of it. Image
    • 30
      • Here, Wally channels the entirety of the Speed Force, describing it as limitless power and infinity, and obliterates Cobalt Blue. This is an important benchmark, since this is seemingly Wally’s max, yet he later goes much faster. Image
      • Channels the entirety of the Speed Force, describes it as limitless power and infinity and obliterates Cobalt Blue. Image 1 Image 2
    • Wally West's Hypertime duplicate, Walter West appears.

Dark Flash Saga​

  • The Flash Vol 2 #155, December 1999
    • Wally restates that he ran “half in half out” of the Speed Force (allowing him to use it to its fullest without falling in until he was done) and overloaded Cobalt Blue with infinite energy he was channeling.
  • The Flash Vol 2 #160, May 2000
    • Wally will never run out of energy due to his direct connection to the Speed Force.
    • (Flash #160, pg. 17) Wally will never run out of energy due to his connection to the Speed Force. Image
  • JLA Incarnations Vol 1 #5 November 2001
    • Barry has to generate more energy than the Anti-Matter Cannon can take
    • The Flash races towards what he knows will be his death in order to destroy the anti-matter cannon which threatens the universe. He looks back over his life and bids farewell to those he loves in his mind as he is absorbed into the Speed Force.
    • From the look of it, Barry needed to become part of the Speed force in order to destroy the cannon. If anything, it would be a separate amped stat.

Blitz​

  • The Flash Vol 2 #200, September 2003
    • 16
      • Using Johnny Quick's Speed Formula, Jesse Quick triggers her connection to the Speed Force. She fills Wally with all the Speed Force Energy she can.
      • Wally is fighting Zoom in still time, between the ticks of a second.
      • Wally is punched by Zoom but isn't KO'd despite how many times he's hit, is thrown through multiple landmasses/buildings/etc., and remains conscious.
      • Uses Jesse’s formula yet again. This time Wally’s moving so fast that time itself stops, and Wally is capable of interacting with Zoom, who possesses his own personal timeline. Image
    • (Flash #200, pg. 16) Uses Jesse’s formula yet again. This time Wally’s moving so fast that time itself stops, and Wally is capable of interacting with Zoom, who possesses his own personal timeline. Image
      • Wally would later be capable of reaching these speeds on his own, without Jesse’s help, and as we know, go much faster than that later on in his career.

Infinite Crisis​

  • The Flash: The Fastest Man Alive Vol 1 #6, January 2007| Danny Bilson, Paul DeMeo
    • 2-C | Bart Allen volunteered to absorb the entire Speed Force so that he would be fast enough to stop Prime.
  • Unknown
    • After the event known as the Infinite Crisis, a 52-Earth Multiverse parallel to the Central Timeline was brought into existence. Contact with all other timelines and worlds was cut off by the event and few inhabitants of the DC Universe even remember Hypertime.

Full Throttle​

  • All Flash, September 2007| Mark Waid
    • (All Flash, pg. 23) Angry at Inertia, Wally was mainlining (to use without restriction) the Speed Force like never before, without the downsides like in the past, like being in danger of getting sucked back in. Image
    • (All Flash, pg. 31) Wally was so charged, so connected to the Speed Force, that he stole all of Inertia’s speed (Inertia is a speedster) to the point where he would be immobilized for eternity. Image

Final Crisis​

Flashpoint​

  • Flashpoint Vol 2 #5, October 2011 | Geoff Johns
    • Barry pulled the entire speed force into him to stop Eobard from killing his mom.
    • It's unclear if he did the same to prevent himself from saving his mom as 2 "beings" would be pulling the entire speed force into themselves at the same "time"
    • 2-C | When undoing the Flashpoint timeline, Barry sees three timelines: the normal DCU, Vertigo and Wildstorm. He is confronted by a mysterious woman, who reveals that the three universes were splintered into three to allow an invasion to arrive. However, she needs the three unified and uses Barry to do so.
  • The Flash Vol 4 #8, June 2012
    • Speed Force isn't time, it pushes time and space forward.

New 52​

Rebirth​

  • Titans Vol 3 #6, February 2017
    • The Speed Force is described as Infinite Energy
  • Titans Vol 3 #13, September 2017
  • The Flash Vol 5 #49, August 2018
    • Barry and Wally each challenge each other and argue over each of their conflicting ideas, where Wally has sought to destroy the Speed Force, and Barry is trying to stop Wally from causing detrimental damage to it because he worries that there may be more damage that is caused in breaking the Speed Force.
    • (Flash #49, pg. 7) Wally and Barry are generating so much energy while racing against each other that it’s disrupting magic, the Green, the Microverse, and could be felt all the way in New Genesis so strongly that Highfather thought it was coming from the Source. Image
    • Cyborg reiterates on the next page that “the energy they’re generating is playing havoc with the very fabric of the multiverse.”
    • Barry questions Wally if there could be consequences to going into the Speed Force and breaking it. Wally questions Barry when he stopped trusting him, and Barry says that he never did. Barry asks Wally what he wants him to do, and Wally tells him that he wants him and Barry to run into the Speed Force and to smash the other side.
    • Low 1-C? | As they run into the Speed Force, Barry tells Wally that they both have been lost in the Speed Force before, to which Wally responds that they are each other's lightning rods. As they are running inside the Speed Force, Wally races past Barry, and smashes through the other side. The resulting occurrence leads to the breaking of the Force Barrier, and Barry and Wally falling out of the sky.
    • Zoom has gained access to the Speed Force, the Strength Force, and the Sage Force. as Barry and Wally are subdued by Zoom.
  • Wonder Woman Vol 5 #53, October 2018
  • Justice League Vol 4 #20, May 2019
    • In the World Forger's New Multiverse, the alternate Wally describes how they used the Speed and Still Force to collapse Hypertime, controlling the time stream to avoid repercussions.
  • Doomsday Clock Vol 1 #10, July 2019
    • Claim: Doctor Manhattan was unable to retcon Wally with the Speed Force.
    • Assessment: Manhattan never tried to retcon Wally. Prior to Flashpoint, the Titans fought the villain Abra Kadabra, who used his magical powers to cast Wally into the Speed Force and wipe his existence from everyone's memories. Wally couldn't escape, and no one remembered him to be able to save him. Due to Manhattan messing with the universe timeline, ten years of history were removed from existence, but, because Wally was outside of time, his memories of these formerly true events remained with him.
  • Flash Forward Vol 1 #4, February 2020
    • 2-C | Using a staff from Tempus Fuginaut, Wally and Lightspeed were controlling the Speed Force to separate two worlds and destroy dark matter.
 
Last edited:
Greenshifter said:
You do realize that his last comment implies that Post-Crisis and Post-Flashpoint are mere alternate timelines right? Something that would easily allow cross-scaling, which I know you are against.
Click to expand...
I was mainly referring to his explanation that the nature of the Speed Force has undergone several changes over the years.

Also, we tend to go by the own feats of alternative timeline Supermen such as the Red Son or All-Star versions, as their interactions count as crossover events in which they are rescaled to each other.
 
Firestorm808 said:
@Antvasima

Here's a timeline of the major Speed Force/Hypertime-related feats and statements.
I still see "Using the entire Speed Force" in Post-Crisis only having 2-C feats. Post-Flashpoint should be handled seprately.

Post-Crisis​

Terminal Velocity​

  • The Flash (Volume 2) #97
    • (Flash #97, pg. 3) The Speed Force is the energy field all speedsters have tapped into to generate their powers. Image
  • The Flash Vol 2 #99, March 1995
    • 15
      • Wally uses the formula again to slow down time and move faster than the energies of the Speed Force in order to give him more time with Linda before he’s absorbed into the Speed Force. At this point, he was moving as fast as he was before activating the formula as he was using it the first time, so it doesn’t make him a set level of fast, just enhances whatever level he’s currently at. Image 1 Image 2 Image 3
  • The Flash Vol 2 #100, April 1995
    • During the story 'Terminal Velocity' Wally was running at the speed of light and entered the Speed Force; however, he survived. He now has a direct line to the Speed Force and his powers are enhanced dramatically. This is when he gains access to new abilities, faster speeds, and begins his path to becoming the Wally West most people know today.
    • (Flash #100, pg. 37) After entering and exiting the Speed Force for the first time, Wally states he has a direct line to channeling its power and is now moving faster than he ever did before. Image
    • (Flash #100, pg. 37) After entering and exiting the Speed Force for the first time, Wally states he has a direct line to channeling its power. Image
    • (Flash #108, pg. 9) No longer needs to consume calories due to the Speed Force powering him. Image
  • The Flash Vol 2 #109, January 1996
    • The Speed Force is described as an Extra-dimensional force
    • (Flash #109, pg. 21) Wally is tied too closely to the Speed Force to have his speed drained. Image
  • The Flash (Volume 2) #110
    • (Flash #110, pg. 4) During this period, Wally was holding back from his full potential speed in order to keep from being absorbed back into the Speed Force. Image
  • The Flash (Volume 2) #111
    • The Speed Force is described as extra-dimensional again.
    • (Flash #111, pg. 13) Shares his speed with Savitar in order for both of them to enter the Speed Force. Image
    • (Flash #111, pg. 15) At the point where he fights Savitar, he can now enter the Speed Force as well as simultaneously lending his speed to another to help them enter it as well. So, entering the Speed Force is no longer something that requires his full effort. Image 1 Image 2 Image 3
    • (Flash #111, pg. 18) Savitar is consumed and becomes one with the Speed Force. Wally is able to find his anchor and escape the Speed Force. Image
  • Wonder Woman Plus Jesse Quick Vol 1 #1 January 1997
    • Christina has used the secret scroll of Hermes to open a mystical pathway that accelerates a runner's speed a hundredfold. She plans on using it to accelerate into the speed force.
    • A speedster's "terminal velocity" is the barrier field of the Speed Force

Emergency Stop​

  • The Flash Vol 2 #131, November 1997
    • (Flash #131, pg. 15) Forms living speed force energy around him to create armor that allows him to run even with broken legs. Image 1 Image 2
  • The Flash Vol 2 #132, December 1997
    • (Flash #132, pg. 4) Wally states that his suit is made of “pure speed force condensed into three-dimensional space.” Image
    • (Flash #132, pg. 14) Shifts his perceptions up to “quantum stillness,” which is likely referring to Planck Time. Image

The Black Flash​

  • The Flash Vol 2 #141 September 1998
    • (Flash #141, pg. 4) Wally’s connection to the speed force (even though it’s currently been severed/inactive) prevents him from being affected by the time stop of the Black Flash’s presence. Image
      • It was unclear to me whether or not Wally resisting this time stop was due to his speed or a time-related power, however, while fighting Zoom, Wally confirmed that his powers are not temporal in nature, meaning this feat was due to his speed alone.
    • (Flash #141, pg. 4) Wally was able to resist a time stop with a greatly weakened connection to the Speed Force (and Wally’s powers are kinetic in nature, not time-based). Effectively, Wally has begun to perform immeasurable speed feats without fully tapping into the Speed Force anymore. Image
    • (Flash #141, pg. 13) Outruns the Black Flash, described as death. Image
    • After tricking Black Flash, Wally runs along with the Big Bang and moves into the Speed Force.

Cobalt Blue​

  • The Flash Vol 2 #143, December 1998
    • (Flash #143, pg. 7) Wally’s new suit is made of Speed Force energy. It is frictionless and self-repairing. Image

Chain Lightning​

  • The Kingdom Vol 1 #2, February 1999
    • Hypertime is introduced as alternate New Earth Timelines
    • Hypertime, the overarching and interconnected web of timelines and realities, presumably existed for almost as long as creation itself. Events in the Central Timeline often create temporal ripples, creating divergent paths of history that exist on their own separate timelines. These timelines occasionally intersect, resulting in changes to history that are usually not even noticed by the inhabitants of a timeline. It is also possible to enter the space between Hypertimelines, where all possible worlds are visible through an endless series of dimensional "windows."
  • The Flash Vol 2 #150, July 1999| Mark Waid, Brian Augustyn
    • 29
      • Can mainline the Speed Force so directly that he’s unaffected by Cobalt Blue absorbing his speed energy, despite that being precisely what CB’s power is, because he’s tapping into an infinite amount of it. Image
    • 30
      • Here, Wally channels the entirety of the Speed Force, describing it as limitless power and infinity, and obliterates Cobalt Blue. This is an important benchmark, since this is seemingly Wally’s max, yet he later goes much faster. Image
      • Channels the entirety of the Speed Force, describes it as limitless power and infinity and obliterates Cobalt Blue. Image 1 Image 2
    • Wally West's Hypertime duplicate, Walter West appears.

Dark Flash Saga​

  • The Flash Vol 2 #155, December 1999
    • Wally restates that he ran “half in half out” of the Speed Force (allowing him to use it to its fullest without falling in until he was done) and overloaded Cobalt Blue with infinite energy he was channeling.
  • The Flash Vol 2 #160, May 2000
    • Wally will never run out of energy due to his direct connection to the Speed Force.
    • (Flash #160, pg. 17) Wally will never run out of energy due to his connection to the Speed Force. Image
  • JLA Incarnations Vol 1 #5 November 2001
    • Barry has to generate more energy than the Anti-Matter Cannon can take
    • The Flash races towards what he knows will be his death in order to destroy the anti-matter cannon which threatens the universe. He looks back over his life and bids farewell to those he loves in his mind as he is absorbed into the Speed Force.
    • From the look of it, Barry needed to become part of the Speed force in order to destroy the cannon. If anything, it would be a separate amped stat.

Blitz​

  • The Flash Vol 2 #200, September 2003
    • 16
      • Using Johnny Quick's Speed Formula, Jesse Quick triggers her connection to the Speed Force. She fills Wally with all the Speed Force Energy she can.
      • Wally is fighting Zoom in still time, between the ticks of a second.
      • Wally is punched by Zoom but isn't KO'd despite how many times he's hit, is thrown through multiple landmasses/buildings/etc., and remains conscious.
      • Uses Jesse’s formula yet again. This time Wally’s moving so fast that time itself stops, and Wally is capable of interacting with Zoom, who possesses his own personal timeline. Image
    • (Flash #200, pg. 16) Uses Jesse’s formula yet again. This time Wally’s moving so fast that time itself stops, and Wally is capable of interacting with Zoom, who possesses his own personal timeline. Image
      • Wally would later be capable of reaching these speeds on his own, without Jesse’s help, and as we know, go much faster than that later on in his career.

Infinite Crisis​

  • The Flash: The Fastest Man Alive Vol 1 #6, January 2007| Danny Bilson, Paul DeMeo
    • 2-C | Bart Allen volunteered to absorb the entire Speed Force so that he would be fast enough to stop Prime.
  • Unknown
    • After the event known as the Infinite Crisis, a 52-Earth Multiverse parallel to the Central Timeline was brought into existence. Contact with all other timelines and worlds was cut off by the event and few inhabitants of the DC Universe even remember Hypertime.

Full Throttle​

  • All Flash, September 2007| Mark Waid
    • (All Flash, pg. 23) Angry at Inertia, Wally was mainlining (to use without restriction) the Speed Force like never before, without the downsides like in the past, like being in danger of getting sucked back in. Image
    • (All Flash, pg. 31) Wally was so charged, so connected to the Speed Force, that he stole all of Inertia’s speed (Inertia is a speedster) to the point where he would be immobilized for eternity. Image

Final Crisis​

Flashpoint​

  • Flashpoint Vol 2 #5, October 2011 | Geoff Johns
    • Barry pulled the entire speed force into him to stop Eobard from killing his mom.
    • It's unclear if he did the same to prevent himself from saving his mom as 2 "beings" would be pulling the entire speed force into themselves at the same "time"
    • 2-C | When undoing the Flashpoint timeline, Barry sees three timelines: the normal DCU, Vertigo and Wildstorm. He is confronted by a mysterious woman, who reveals that the three universes were splintered into three to allow an invasion to arrive. However, she needs the three unified and uses Barry to do so.
  • The Flash Vol 4 #8, June 2012
    • Speed Force isn't time, it pushes time and space forward.

New 52​

Rebirth​

  • Titans Vol 3 #6, February 2017
    • The Speed Force is described as Infinite Energy
  • Titans Vol 3 #13, September 2017
  • The Flash Vol 5 #49, August 2018
    • Barry and Wally each challenge each other and argue over each of their conflicting ideas, where Wally has sought to destroy the Speed Force, and Barry is trying to stop Wally from causing detrimental damage to it because he worries that there may be more damage that is caused in breaking the Speed Force.
    • (Flash #49, pg. 7) Wally and Barry are generating so much energy while racing against each other that it’s disrupting magic, the Green, the Microverse, and could be felt all the way in New Genesis so strongly that Highfather thought it was coming from the Source. Image
    • Cyborg reiterates on the next page that “the energy they’re generating is playing havoc with the very fabric of the multiverse.”
    • Barry questions Wally if there could be consequences to going into the Speed Force and breaking it. Wally questions Barry when he stopped trusting him, and Barry says that he never did. Barry asks Wally what he wants him to do, and Wally tells him that he wants him and Barry to run into the Speed Force and to smash the other side.
    • Low 1-C? | As they run into the Speed Force, Barry tells Wally that they both have been lost in the Speed Force before, to which Wally responds that they are each other's lightning rods. As they are running inside the Speed Force, Wally races past Barry, and smashes through the other side. The resulting occurrence leads to the breaking of the Force Barrier, and Barry and Wally falling out of the sky.
    • Zoom has gained access to the Speed Force, the Strength Force, and the Sage Force. as Barry and Wally are subdued by Zoom.
  • Wonder Woman Vol 5 #53, October 2018
  • Justice League Vol 4 #20, May 2019
    • In the World Forger's New Multiverse, the alternate Wally describes how they used the Speed and Still Force to collapse Hypertime, controlling the time stream to avoid repercussions.
  • Doomsday Clock Vol 1 #10, July 2019
    • Claim: Doctor Manhattan was unable to retcon Wally with the Speed Force.
    • Assessment: Manhattan never tried to retcon Wally. Prior to Flashpoint, the Titans fought the villain Abra Kadabra, who used his magical powers to cast Wally into the Speed Force and wipe his existence from everyone's memories. Wally couldn't escape, and no one remembered him to be able to save him. Due to Manhattan messing with the universe timeline, ten years of history were removed from existence, but, because Wally was outside of time, his memories of these formerly true events remained with him.
  • Flash Forward Vol 1 #4, February 2020
    • 2-C | Using a staff from Tempus Fuginaut, Wally and Lightspeed were controlling the Speed Force to separate two worlds and destroy dark matter.
Click to expand...
Thank you. Your research help is very appreciated.

So what are your conclusions from all of the above?

Also, what do you think Deagonx?
 
  • Low 1-C? | As they run into the Speed Force, Barry tells Wally that they both have been lost in the Speed Force before, to which Wally responds that they are each other's lightning rods. As they are running inside the Speed Force, Wally races past Barry, and smashes through the other side. The resulting occurrence leads to the breaking of the Force Barrier, and Barry and Wally falling out of the sky.
Yeah I think Low 1-C at peak works then
 
Greenshifter said:
  • The Infinite Mass Punch is by no means limited by this force, however. The closer Flash gets to light speed, the more it increases. When Jenni Ognats attempted the same thing, she got close enough to lightspeed to potentially destroy the universe with her mass, and since Wally is a far greater speedster than her who has many times surpassed light speed, this should serve as an upper limit on his Infinite Mass Punch.
Click to expand...
Wouldn't that count as a chair reaction? Or better would that be scalable to her regular AP?
Nothing indicate that she can use that much power during a fight, if anything it sound more like a suicide move as he would had be killed along side everyone.
 
Last edited:
@Firestorm808 @Deagonx

What are your conclusions from the information listed above. Should we create several statistics keys for the Flash, given how uneven his power level has been over his career?
 
Yes, he does, but his findings are contradictory in scale, so what should we do exactly?
 
Is it possible to break the speedforce scaling into post crisis and post flashpoint, and give wally 2 new keys? idk if that would help I'm not really an expert on the DC continuities/runs.
 
Well, the 2-C and Low 1-C differences in scale for example.
 
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