Possible Sonic, Blaze and Eggman upgrade

[Adamjensen2030]

Ehm, Adam, this isn't the place for game discussion, it's about content revision.

I know. I have a good feeling that Super Sonic would most likely get upgraded because of Project Sonic 2017 which has yet to reveal more information.

Even if the upgrade request gets rejected it doesn't change the fact that Game Sonic Verse beats Game Mario Verse.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, this topic seems to have been dealt with. Should we create a new discussion rule to avoid repeating it in the future?

 

[Blanked]

^probably yes. Since it is easy that another fan of Sonic arrives and finds his statistics weird opening and discussing the same thing again.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I am open for suggestions regarding how to word the rule.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

Maybe: Do not attempt to make Sonic (Game characters) such as Super Sonic tier 2 because even with several tier 2 feats it is highly inconsistent within the franchise as it mostly shows tier 5 and 4 feats. This has been debunked (thread) and (Thread).

I'm sure someone can word it better

 

[Adamjensen2030]

If Super Sonic does perform a tier 2 feat in Project Sonic 2017 then the admins should remove the "Do not upgrade Super forms to Tier 2" rules.


Sound fair?

 

[Antvasima]

@Redgrave Well, we might need actual links to the threads in question.

@Adam It depends on what happens. We do not make any promises in advance.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

We'll most likely discuss it when we get to that cause it should come out this year maybe have a new key or something? Idk still gotta wait

 

[Adamjensen2030]

Antvasima:

Good point. No problem.


TISSG7Redgrave:

I'm looking forward to it.

 

[Executor_N0]

One thing. The feats directly related to Super Sonic said to be 5-B are:

• Defeat Perfect Chaos
• Defeating BioLizard
• Chaos Emeralds in Ark Colony
• Emerl Destroy the Earth
• Defeating DarkGaia

The feats Low 2-C related to super shapes are:

• Defeat Time Eater
• Facing Solaris
• Defeat EggSalamender
• Defeat EggWizard
• Chaos emeralds causing two universes to be destroyed

Most of the Low 2-C feats took place after Sonic 2006 and after that period only DarkGaia proved to be below the Universal level (despite unlimited power mentions, considered a Hyperbole).

Looking for coherence would not it be a good idea to put Sonic before 2006 as level 5-B / 4-A and after 2006 as Low 2-C? Since 2006 in relation to planetary threats Sonic did not even use his Super Form (How to face Ifrit, Perfect Chaos or defeat the improved Deadly Six - The Japanese version of Sonic Lost World defines that the energy that carries the Bandiniks, Deadly Six and Eggrobo Even without being to the maximum would destroy the whole planet if Sonic destroyed it).

 

[Cropfist]

Well, this topic seems to have been dealt with. Should we create a new discussion rule to avoid repeating it in the future?

Yes. A note should be added that the Egg Wizard was likely not using the full power of the PotS, as it is stated to be superior to the Emeralds.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I would appreciate suggestions from the staff.

 

[Darkness552]

The Egg Wizard is like the Time Eater and Solaris Fights, likely outliers

Also @Excutor mind posting something on where the Chaos emeralds destroy 2 universes

 

[MicDaniel]

Should it be noted the the EggWizards strongest attack is called the "The planet Buster cannon"

 

[Darkness552]

Should it be noted the the EggWizards strongest attack is called the "The planet Buster cannon"

it wouldn't mean much since i believe the Egg Wizard is i think powered by The Power of the Stars

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

@Darkness yes iirc in sonic rush adventure it was powered by TPoTS

 

[Executor_N0]

The Egg Wizard is like the Time Eater and Solaris Fights, likely outliers
Also @Excutor mind posting something on where the Chaos emeralds destroy 2 universes

Yeah, that was in Sonic Rush.

It began with a rip in space-time that would end up altering the whole structure of reality.

This was revealed to be an action of the Sol Emeralds, it attracted the entire dimension of Blaze causing the two universes to collide. This would cause the destruction of both worlds.

Some time later Dr. Eggman and Eggman Nega confirmed this by stating that the emeralds would destroy both worlds.

The only reason this did not occur according to Doctor Eggman was because Sonic was with 7 Chaos Emeralds (which indicates that Sonic is able to control them by preventing the collapse of the two dimensions).

Sonic complements this and states that as long as there is someone who knows how to control the emeralds, like him, nothing bad will happen to any world. After this he states that currently Blaze has the ability to control the emeralds preventing his world from being destroyed.

One more thing, Eggman Nega and Dr. Eggman claim that with the power of the emeralds they could create a dream world that would transcend the other worlds.


Anyway ... This is considered an Outlier. Just like Solaris, TimeEater and EggWizard (Here's the scans for this character).

All of them coming after Sonic 2006, literally the only one who comes to mind after Sonic 2006 that did not have a feat at the universal level and needed the Super Sonic to be defeated was Dark Gaia, maybe also the Nega Mother Wisp.

All other planetary threats that came out as Perfect Chaos, Ifrit or the Life Energy of Sonic Lost World were fought with Sonic still in base form. I think even the Wisps can be considered something at this level being that they could destroy a huge black hole using the power of their race (I believe that by calculating the energy to create such a black hole, since it was a byproduct of the power of the Wisp's, and even dividing by the power of all Wisps seen a high level can still be found).

I think it's a good option to separate Sonic into two keys, a pre-2006 (Where there was no mention of universal power coming from the emeralds of chaos - outside some mentions of unlimited power) and a post 2006 where all mentions of universal power arise and Sonic faced planetary threats without needing a Super Form (Except Perfect Dark Gaia, but wait ... He can face the Dark Gaia Premature ...).

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

i would like to point out that the black hole in colors is a pseudo one i think cause it didn't suck him but beat him by expanding

In unleash well he got help from light gaia to hit him but then again while he did hit eyes he still damaged premature one tbf

 

[Darkness552]

might need more input from staff on the information but from a past issue the problem with Base Sonic fighting Planet level enemies was that they were planet level due to the chaos emeralds powering them

but if we base it off feats/capabilities alone, there are 4 universal instances for the chaos emeralds and 4 planet level instances (don't remember Egg Salamander being in the universal range of power)

the problem is showing the chaos emeralds as being a power that isn't equal for every character in the series because of obvious scaling issues

 

[Executor_N0]

No. The black hole was sucking everything around and expanding simultaneously.

 

[Executor_N0]

don't remember Egg Salamander being in the universal range of power

EggSalamender,using the power of the Sol Emeralds, would create a dimension that would transcend both Sonic and Blaze dimensions. Yes, it is not all the characters with access to the emeralds that have that power. As I put it above Sonic explains that only people who have knowledge about the power of emeralds can use their power properly.

 

[Darkness552]

i see i say we still wait for other staff input

 

[Antvasima]

I do not know enough information to make a call. Sorry.

However, to clarify, did the 4 planetary power levels for the chaos emeralds come before 2006, and the 4 universal instances come afterwards? If so, two separate statistics keys may in fact be a good idea.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Sonic nor the chaos emeralds got extra power. There was no training involved. There was no reboot. This is nothing more than a coincidence, if even that, as Sonic tired himself out to a Large Planet level foe (via feats) after 2006. Same reason we don't rate Kirby as 3-A because he struggled with a Large Planet foe (via feats).

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Honestly, to prevent this from coming up, we should either write a rule, or rate said outlier monsters-of-the-week as glass cannons. And I really don't want to do the latter, because it might set a precedent.

 

[Darkness552]

Sonic nor the chaos emeralds got extra power. There was no training involved. There was no reboot. This is nothing more than a coincidence, if even that, as Sonic tired himself out to a Large Planet level foe (via feats) after 2006. Same reason we don't rate Kirby as 3-A because he struggled with a Large Planet foe (via feats).

after 2006 all the universal incidents happened with one planet level one would we not say the planet level one was the outlier if we were to isolate it, anyway i do agree with with there was no obvious power boost among the characters though and with it all together Sonic should be left at his current level

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Never mind then. Does anybody have any suggestions for how to word the new discussion rule?

 

[Ryukama]

Like others have said, nothing significant took place after 2006. Feats of similar nature just happened to occur during that time. There's no reason (other than of course plot) for Super Sonic of 2006 to be vastly superior to Super Sonic of of the 90s.

Also I don't think Sonic 06 should be counted either case, since even if the other Low 2-C feats now become considered, Solaris's tier (2-C to 2-B) is far greater than the other ones. We've established to gap between Low 2-C and 2-C to be, while unquantifiable, extremely massive.

So in my opinion even if we were to consider Low 2-C Sonic, Solaris certainly just be an outlier as it massively contradicts everything else in the series.

And the defeat of Egg Wizard and Salamander can easily be seen as PIS, as it is fueled by a power source canonly far superior to the Chaos and Sol Emeralds like Crop said.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

"Please do not try to upgrade Sonic or anyone else with the Chaos Emeralds to 2-C/Low 2-C, as it makes no sense for the emeralds, with no power boost whatsoever, to gain a strength increase of infinity because of a handful of monsters of the week, especially considering Super Sonic has more consistently been shown doing far less."

 

[Ryukama]

Oh I didn't see that Ant was concluding this before my response.

Anyways I think what Red has put sounds alright. Perhaps someone like Reppuzan can reword it a bit.

"Do not attempt to make Sonic (Game characters) such as Super Sonic tier 2 because even with several tier 2 feats it is highly inconsistent within the franchise as it mostly shows tier 5 and 4 feats. This has been debunked (thread) and (Thread)."

 

[Darkness552]

Basic wording would be not to attempt to upgrade Super Sonic to 2-C or higher because of a multitude of reasons already discussed until new games and evidence come out

 

[Blanked]

^isnt this entire thing from the "sonic rush adventure" game?

If yes. You could just forbid the use of that game for power scailing becasue it's full of inconsistencies.

 

[Antvasima]

Perhaps something like:

"Do not try to upgrade the game version of Sonic, or other characters using the Chaos Emeralds, to Low 2-C or higher, as it is extremely inconsistent for the emeralds to gain a strength increase of infinity compared with several tier 5 feats for the same power sources."

Suggestions for improvements are very welcome.

 

[Executor_N0]

Like others have said, nothing significant took place after 2006. Feats of similar nature just happened to occur during that time. There's no reason (other than of course plot) for Super Sonic of 2006 to be vastly superior to Super Sonic of of the 90s.

Also I don't think Sonic 06 should be counted either case, since even if the other Low 2-C feats now become considered, Solaris's tier (2-C to 2-B) is far greater than the other ones. We've established to gap between Low 2-C and 2-C to be, while unquantifiable, extremely massive.

So in my opinion even if we were to consider Low 2-C Sonic, Solaris certainly just be an outlier as it massively contradicts everything else in the series.

And the defeat of Egg Wizard and Salamander can easily be seen as PIS, as it is fueled by a power source canonly far superior to the Chaos and Sol Emeralds like Crop said.

Emeralds do not grow stronger, but the characters become masters in using their power.

In Sonic Rush itself, Blaze had no knowledge of how to use the power of the Sol Emeralds, Sonic helped her learn to use that power by making her master the use of it. In fact, the emeralds were not stronger than in the past, but the characters learned to use more of their energy in a moment of history, with all the universal / multiversal responsibility that Sonic knows in Sonic Rush this can only occur after Sonic 2006 for coherence of feats.

Classifications in the franchise must be Beginners and Masters in relation to the use of the power of the emeralds based on what Sonic said, will not be all the characters that are going to be masters. The emeralds did not get any power up after 2006, but after that moment it was when Sonic learned to control their power.

And the other feats are Down 2-C to a minimum, it was not just a universe that would be destroyed in Sonic Rush, but the very fabric of reality itself, EggSallamander would not only create a new universe, but one that would transcend the other universes, TPoS no Was directed to only two universes, but directly to allow the existence of parallel universes.

I know it's about to end, but I had to show that there is a reason for the Super Forms to get stronger after Sonic 2006, characters like Sonic simply became masters at using that power. I wonder if this can be used to consider something.

 

[Ryukama]

That is really just more of a theory however. There's nothing within the lore that explicitly states or shows that Sonic is gradually unlocking more of the Chaos Emeralds' power. Nothing like scenes of him training to get stronger with it. No statements that he is better with it now than he was in his prior games.

Just a bunch of Tier 2 feats come during some arbitrary period of time (the same period of time Sonic nearly gets his handed to him by a Large Planet level) and now it's just being assumed that something happened that made Sonic literally infinitely stronger than his past (and sometimes future) incarnations despite that being unsupported.

Again even VS debating and tiering aside, lore wise it makes no sense for something powered by the Chaos and Sol emeralds to defeat TPoS. TPoS is canonly far superior to the emeralds. Those fights can be deemed as PIS.

Also Solaris just can't be defended. That incident is far too beyond all the other Sonic feats. Even the Tier 2 ones. Taking Low 2-C Sonic as legit Solaris would still have to be an outlier. And you can't use one outlier to defend something else not being an outlier.

 

[Executor_N0]

It's not a theory, Sonic made it clear that there are differences in the use of emeralds if it is used by someone who knows the secret behind their powers. Of course Sonic did not know this from the beginning (He did not even know about Chaos Control before Sonic A2), at some point he had to become master of that to know what he knows in Sonic Rush

 

[Ryukama]

Sonic saying if someone knows how to properly use the Chaos Emeralds everything will go fine =/= I am now infinitely stronger since my past uses of the Chaos Emeralds.

This is a massive extrapolation. It'd be much better in my opinion to just go with what Sonic has most often shown in his past games and even after this supposed "mastering" of the emeralds that made him infinitely stronger.

There are two 2-C feats (that as Crop and I keep saying do not even make sense within the verse's powerscaling) vs all the other Tier 5 feats. Solaris and Time Eater are drastic low and high ends that do not support the rating of Sonic being scaled to TPoS. So those two incidences cannot be used to defend these ones.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Ryukama. Perhaps we should return to the issue of wording the rule?

 

[Antvasima]

Does anybody have links to threads where this issue has been discussed, or should we make do with linking to this one within the rule?

 

[Executor_N0]

Since that will not change, I think it's also good to warn in the new rule that they do not try to upgrade Sonic base to planetary level due to the feats of Sonic Rivals 2, Sonic Generations and Sonic Lost World due to the need to use Chaos Emeralds in threats Similar in the past.