EGGMAN SHOOTS PEOPLE IN THE FACE but it’s Low 2-C

[JJSliderman]

I have not learned my lesson from the 2-A Base Sonic attempt, but I think it’s high time Eggman finally got the respect he deserves.

Currently, his physicals are sitting at Low 2-C durability and Building level strength, but I think that we can go a little higher. There are several times in the series where Eggman showcases the physical strength to harm (or at least somewhat affect physically) Low 2-C characters.

-Riders: In this game, Eggman by default is a power type character. Eggman is shown to have a higher power stat than Sonic, which in Riders determines who gets pushed aside when two racers clash on the road. This is a pretty clear showing of Eggman being physically stronger than Sonic, as he is always portrayed as a power type baseline in these games and has a higher power stat in both Riders 1 and 2. Moreover, Eggman on Babylon Garden was seemingly able to beat and capture Amy Rose offscreen, as well as lift her in a grip that Amy was unable to overpower or do anything about, all without visible use of the blasters he’s seen holding in another cutscene.

-Sonic Lost World: I’m sure we all remember the scene of Eggman punching the ice wall. However, after he does so, he’s shown holding his hand in slight pain, a fact that Orbot comments on. By Newton’s third law, this means Eggman had to have been punching with enough force to hurt himself, or Low 2-C AP. Eggman also states he wishes to strangle a Zeti in the scene, which may add some extra weight to the idea he can hurt himself.

(-The Olympics: While non-canon, in this game Eggman is shown as capable of physically boxing and fencing with other Sonic characters.

-Sonic Chronicles: While also non-canon, Eggman is capable of throwing his wrenches hard enough to damage both Shadow and Shade in boss fights. There’s nothing provably special about these wrenches either.) Ignore these if needed.

-IDW: Eggman grabs and tosses Starline into the ground hard enough to instantly knock the latter out, despite Starline with no Tricore being able to take hits from Amy just fine (seen here). He also slams an off-guard Surge into the ground and stuns her for a brief moment, allowing Eggman to pile his robots onto here. Later, he’s also shown somewhat holding her away from him, and kicked an off guard Surge off his body with a visible sound effect. This performance is much worse than against Starline, but it shows that Eggman can somewhat damage base Sonic tier enemies physically if he gets them off guard, so downscaling seems okay.

Edit:

Eggman has also shown on multiple occasions to be able to overpower, compress, or stun Cubot with his physical abilities. This is important because Cubot’s head tanked a direct spindash from Sonic in Lost World, yet Eggman can incapacitate him easily.

Update again:

Scaling Eggman physically to everyone else doesn’t seem like it’s gonna work out (even though I still don’t know how many instances Eggman would need to scale and probably never will), but since people seem more open to the idea of Eggman’s guns (not his mechs, his personal laser blasters and stuff like the party popper in Riders), scaling, I’ll just focus on that. In addition to what was already said about Eggman’s guns in Riders, he can damage opponents with his party popper attack in Riders 1 and 2 just like the rest of the cast, his deconstruction gun was potent enough that Rouge had to pull Tails out of the way so he wouldn’t be hit, his laser pistol forced Surge to dodge rather than tank it, and his gun scared Tangle and he had her completely incapacitated with the threat of shooting her with it.

Conclusion: Eggman’s modern era key should be upgraded to Low 2-C with personal weapons.

Discuss.

Agree: Starbrand_Fan (with downscaling), HenshinIntervention, y3p_owo (with guns scaling), Theuser789 (with guns scaling), ElixirBlue

Disagree: y3p_owo (with physicals), Eseseo, Theuser789, HonestlyBored24, DaReaperMan, Da_Lunge_Fish, Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara, CryoTheMayo, Maverick_Zero_X, Lonkitt, CloverDragon03

Neutral: omegabronic

 

[Starbrand_Fan]

Eggman being stronger than Sonic is ridiculous for many reasons but I do agree he should downscale from him.

 

[Eseseso]

Agree.

 

[HonestlyBored24]

Agree with Starband’s statement.

 

[JJSliderman]

@Theuser789 @omegabronic @ShakeResounding If you have time, I’d appreciate your takes as well. Thanks.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Don't really have a whole lot to say, but;

-The Olympics: While non-canon, in this game Eggman is shown as capable of physically boxing and fencing with other Sonic characters.

-Sonic Chronicles: While also non-canon, Eggman is capable of throwing his wrenches hard enough to damage both Shadow and Shade in boss fights. There’s nothing provably special about these wrenches either.

Why are you using non-canon material as justifications for an upgrade to canon Eggman? The Olympics example is especially bizarre

 

[Theuser789]

Riders power types are based on the board you ride, not the character (For Zero Gravity, at least. I would need to check the rest.).

Lost World is pretty vague. Holding his hand in pain doesn't really mean his punches had the same strength as the moves Sonic uses against him.

IDW is valid, but secondary canon.

Rest is non canon.

Neutral in this thread.

 

[JJSliderman]

Riders power types are based on the board you ride, not the character (For Zero Gravity, at least. I would need to check the rest.).

For the first game it is based on character to an extent, as different characters add different stat boosts to the gear. Eggman by default gives a +1 boost to power, which only the other power type characters like Knuckles and Storm do, and this boost is consistent no matter what gear Eggman has. Having higher power in this game also means that you more easily shove opponents aside when you ram into them, so it is based on strength. This also continued in the sequel, characters and boards have different stats and Eggman is still among the highest in terms of power.

Lost World is pretty vague. Holding his hand in pain doesn't really mean his punches had the same strength as the moves Sonic uses against him.

If his punches dealt enough damage to something that the backlash force could hurt himself, then his punches should scale to his durability.

IDW is valid, but secondary canon.

It’s accepted as canon so this doesn’t mean much.

The non-canon stuff is just supplementary, and Chronicles was at one point accepted as canon as a full on Sonic game unlike the crossovers (Shade and Ix even still get scaling from canon feats), and it doesn’t really have any notable contradictions for the characters physical abilities.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

“His feat of punching aside trucks is already calculated, but what was ignored is that Eggman is a power type, while Sonic is a speed type. As a result of this, Eggman can physically punch aside these trucks, while Sonic is unable to and bounces off"

Neutral but this is a terrible feat to use for Tier 2.

 

[JJSliderman]

I explained above that Eggman also just has a higher power stat than Sonic by default, and power determines who pushes the other character aside in clashes on the road (I.e the lesser power character gets knocked aside), so Eggman being a power type does mean something.

 

[y3p_owo]

Why are you using non-canon material? Those should not be used, supplementary or not.

Anyways, I think I'm gonna have to disagree with this thread.

A lot of the reasoning either uses non-canon material, a feat that honestly looks more like an anti-feat for Eggman since he hurt his hand while punching a wall, feats that either require him to sneak attack someone or just don't like they're physical feats (at least to me.), PIS (Seriously, Amy was left inside of bush, not handcuffed or tied up or anything, and stayed in there the whole time. And to reference Peter Knetter, his way of holding her hostage was just "I have her Sonic!" with no real way of threatening honestly anyone in that scene.) or just uses gameplay mechanics.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Heavy disagree here, most evidence is non-canon, and the IDW thing would probably just be an outlier imo. Using in-game statistics in a racing game is also absurd, especially since the implication is that regular ass trucks are not just low 2-C, but also above baseline low 2-C.

you Sonic supporters better not push your luck too far, lest you end up getting the Mario anti-feat treatment

 

[Theuser789]

For the first game it is based on character to an extent, as different characters add different stat boosts to the gear. Eggman by default gives a +1 boost to power, which only the other power type characters like Knuckles and Storm do, and this boost is consistent no matter what gear Eggman has. Having higher power in this game also means that you more easily shove opponents aside when you ram into them, so it is based on strength. This also continued in the sequel, characters and boards have different stats and Eggman is still among the highest in terms of power.

If his punches dealt enough damage to something that the backlash force could hurt himself, then his punches should scale to his durability.

It’s accepted as canon so this doesn’t mean much.

The non-canon stuff is just supplementary, and Chronicles was at one point accepted as canon as a full on Sonic game unlike the crossovers (Shade and Ix even still get scaling from canon feats), and it doesn’t really have any notable contradictions for the characters physical abilities.

If the power type comes from the boards, then I don't see why this would be a feat of strength, either.

 

[JJSliderman]

Only 2 things here were non-canon.

Moreover you can’t call Eggman’s feat an outlier and then say Starline has Low 2-C durability, that’s just arbitrary.

The wall thing was just showing Eggman can deal enough damage to hurt himself, for awhile he was treated as having stonewall durability but weak strength but it’s not the case.

Chronicles was intended as a Battle sequel due to featuring Gizoids and explaining where they came from, it fits into the lore of Sonic and the game references past events very frequently. Nothing in the game contradicts past events in terms of physical abilities, so it should be fine as support.

The Olympics is only being used for scaling Eggman to other Sonic characters, the Mario scaling is not factored in.

Game mechanics is pretty weak for Riders when Eggman is consistently portrayed as a character with a high power stat in both of the games that have stats for the characters.

Him slamming Starline into the ground and knocking him out is not a sneak attack when Starline was attacking him and Eggman just countered, Starline is accepted as being able to take hits from Amy without being knocked out, so Eggman knocking him out in one blow is a physical feat.

And if Amy was so much stronger than Eggman there’s no reason she shouldn’t have been able to break free of his grip and stomp him.

If the power type comes from the boards, then I don't see why this would be a feat of strength, either.

Power typing doesn’t come from boards, Eggman himself as a character has defined stats, same as all the other characters, and his stats show his power level is higher than Sonic’s without even factoring gear for both.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Scaling Eggman as strong as Sonic doesn't feel right to me given how he needs the mechs to even stand a chance

 

[Theuser789]

Only 2 things here were non-canon.

Moreover you can’t call Eggman’s feat an outlier and then say Starline has Low 2-C durability, that’s just arbitrary.

The wall thing was just showing Eggman can deal enough damage to hurt himself, for awhile he was treated as having stonewall durability but weak strength but it’s not the case.

Chronicles was intended as a Battle sequel due to featuring Gizoids and explaining where they came from, it fits into the lore of Sonic and the game references past events very frequently. Nothing in the game contradicts past events in terms of physical abilities, so it should be fine as support.

The Olympics is only being used for scaling Eggman to other Sonic characters, the Mario scaling is not factored in.

Game mechanics is pretty weak for Riders when Eggman is consistently portrayed as a character with a high power stat in both of the games that have stats for the characters.

Him slamming Starline into the ground and knocking him out is not a sneak attack when Starline was attacking him and Eggman just countered, Starline is accepted as being able to take hits from Amy without being knocked out, so Eggman knocking him out in one blow is a physical feat.

And if Amy was so much stronger than Eggman there’s no reason she shouldn’t have been able to break free of his grip and stomp him.


Power typing doesn’t come from boards, Eggman himself as a character has defined stats, same as all the other characters, and his stats show his power level is higher than Sonic’s without even factoring gear for both.

The ability to take power type shortcuts, which is what a power type is in Riders, depends on the board you equip the character.

 

[ElixirBlue]

“His feat of punching aside trucks is already calculated, but what was ignored is that Eggman is a power type, while Sonic is a speed type. As a result of this, Eggman can physically punch aside these trucks, while Sonic is unable to and bounces off"

Tbf, Sonic can’t do anything to SA’s G.U.N. Truck.

Neutral but leaning on positive. IDW is pointing to that direction for Eggman. He has had a number of speed feats in the games too, like running away from Knuckles (Shadow the Hedgehog) and the Chaotix (Sonic Heroes) on foot.

 

[JJSliderman]

No, there is an actual power stat in the game, which determines how powerful characters are outside the shortcut types, and primarily the characters that are power types (like Storm, Knuckles, and Eggman), are the ones with the highest power stat. Before factoring Extreme Gear in, looking at just the baseline stats when selecting characters, Eggman has a comparable or higher power stat vs everyone else.

And just because Eggman relies on mechs doesn’t mean he can’t still be somewhat in the ballpark physically, he can already keep up with the characters in speed despite also relying on mechs to fight speed-wise.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Chronicles was intended as a Battle sequel due to featuring Gizoids and explaining where they came from, it fits into the lore of Sonic and the game references past events very frequently. Nothing in the game contradicts past events in terms of physical abilities, so it should be fine as support.

tbh none of this matters since ultimately it isn't canon

The Olympics is only being used for scaling Eggman to other Sonic characters, the Mario scaling is not factored in.

What is this logic my guy, ignoring half the cast in a non canon crossover game does not make it more valid. It'd be like if I tried to make Breath of the Wild Link planet level and one of the justifications I used was that he can beat Ocarina of Time Ganondorf in smash ultimate so long as I ignore the other characters from different series.

Just stick with the canon material, you already have 3 other examples from the actual continunity so just focus on them.

 

[JJSliderman]

I think being non-canon shouldn’t exclude it, the game is only non-canon because of Ken Penders being a ******** and is otherwise a legitimate part of the game Sonic story in every regard (like if it’s non-canon completely there’s no reason Shade or Ix should have canon stats but they still are accepted)

But okay I can discount the Olympics stuff.

 

[Dust_Collector]

I think being non-canon shouldn’t exclude it, the game is only non-canon because of Ken Penders being a ******** and is otherwise a legitimate part of the game Sonic story in every regard (like if it’s non-canon completely there’s no reason Shade or Ix should have canon stats but they still are accepted)

It being non canon because of certain reasons doesn't mean much, ultimately still non canon. Also it's quite common for non canon works to get scaling from canon stuff (Eyes of Heaven is a good example). It's like a weird one way thing where the main series is canon to the game but the game isn't canon to the main series, happens a lot.

 

[y3p_owo]

PIS (Seriously, Amy was left inside of bush, not handcuffed or tied up or anything, and stayed in there the whole time. And to reference Peter Knetter, his way of holding her hostage was just "I have her Sonic!" with no real way of threatening honestly anyone in that scene.)

I just realized another reason for why that scene is PIS: Why doesn't Amy hit him with her hammer? We see her trying to smash Sonic with it after he saves her from Eggman, so why not use it on the guy who's literally using her as a hostage? (Who's using no weapons or anything to threaten her with btw.)

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Disagree for reasons stated.

 

[JJSliderman]

I just realized another reason for why that scene is PIS: Why doesn't Amy hit him with her hammer? We see her trying to smash Sonic with it after he saves her from Eggman, so why not use it on the guy who's literally using her as a hostage? (Who's using no weapons or anything to threaten her with btw.)

Maybe because Eggman has guns he can pull out at any time (which is why I also suggested the idea of Low 2-C with weapons that aren’t mechs since he later holds everyone at gunpoint).

I just wanted to try and get a flat rating ideally, since Eggman doesn’t use his guns the entire time he’s restraining Amy and yet she can’t escape, even with ample time.

 

[JJSliderman]

It being non canon because of certain reasons doesn't mean much, ultimately still non canon. Also it's quite common for non canon works to get scaling from canon stuff (Eyes of Heaven is a good example). It's like a weird one way thing where the main series is canon to the game but the game isn't canon to the main series, happens a lot.

The game itself was canon for a very long time and only got confirmed as non-canon because of an encyclopedia. Plus if it’s the same Eggman in that game as all the others, then why would he randomly become exponentially more powerful just for this game? And even if he did become exponentially stronger, shouldn’t that warrant Chronicles Eggman specifically being Low 2-C, if he doesn’t have anti-feats?

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

Disagree FRA

 

[JJSliderman]

Like looking over what’s present

-Eggman baseline has a higher level in the power category compared to Tails, Amy, Cream, etc. in a game where characters have stats and shows it in a cutscene by restraining Amy (a character with a lower power stat) physically.

-Eggman is accepted to have Low 2-C durability and is shown being able to hurt himself

-Eggman physically one shots a guy who has Low 2-C durability.

All without tech of any kind.

It’s pretty consistent.

 

[y3p_owo]

Maybe because Eggman has guns he can pull out at any time (which is why I also suggested the idea of Low 2-C with weapons that aren’t mechs since he later holds everyone at gunpoint).

I just wanted to try and get a flat rating ideally.

Yet he doesn't even try to pull them out until the literal end of the game.

Anyways, I'm fine with Low 2-C guns, since it is consistent thanks to Adventure 2.

 

[y3p_owo]

-Eggman is accepted to have Low 2-C durability and is shown being able to hurt himself

The feat you've shown for him hurting himself is more of an anti-feat than a supporting feat, since he's hurting his hands against a wall. Using Newton's 3rd Law or not, it's going to look more like an anti-feat than a supporting one.

-Eggman physically one shots a guy who has Low 2-C durability.

Speaking of Starline, the link of him tanking Amy's attack doesn't work for me.

 

[JJSliderman]

The feat you've shown for him hurting himself is more of an anti-feat than a supporting feat, since he's hurting his hands against a wall. Using Newton's 3rd Law or not, it's going to look more like an anti-feat than a supporting one.

He’s already accepted to have low 2-C durability, this is just him being able to hurt himself. If you disagree with Low 2-C durability then make a thread about it.

Speaking of Starline, the link of him tanking Amy's attack doesn't work for me.

It’s a separate link (for the part labeled ‘seen here’ in the IDW section, it’s also on Starline’s page for durability)

 

[Theuser789]

Eggman being low 2-C weapons is already a thing, no?

 

[y3p_owo]

He’s already accepted to have low 2-C durability, this is just him being able to hurt himself. If you disagree with Low 2-C durability then make a thread about it.

I'm not disagreeing with Low 2-C durability (I mean, I do disagree with Low 2-C Base cast, but that's neither here nor there), I'm disagreeing with the scan being used as a supporting feat rather than an anti-feat.

 

[JJSliderman]

It’s usually just his machines or mechs, this would be for his guns.

Although I still think he should downscale physically instead, the gun thing is more of an alternative.

 

[JJSliderman]

I'm not disagreeing with Low 2-C durability (I mean, I do disagree with Low 2-C Base cast, but that's neither here nor there), I'm disagreeing with the scan being used as a supporting feat rather than an anti-feat.

Why, he can hurt himself with the recoil force of his punches, him putting all his effort into punching something doesn’t mean his max power is only wall level. He also was confident right after in his ability to strangle a Zeti despite knowing how powerful they are (and Eggman is someone who knows his limitations as shown by IDW and Surge so if he didn’t believe he could do it, he wouldn’t say it) and could already punch trucks aside, busting an ice wall is not the limit for him.

Moreover, Eggman hurting himself slightly in Lost World is followed up by him one-shotting someone with similar durability in IDW, indicating a progression for his strength and making the IDW instance not an outlier.

 

[y3p_owo]

He also was confident right after in his ability to strangle a Zeti despite knowing how powerful they are

That wasn't him being confident, that was him making a pissed off threat because they were basically calling him a failure and rubbing it in that they hijacked his plans. If I was in Eggman's shoes, I'd threaten to strangle them too. And making threats doesn't always mean you're capable of going out and actually doing them, especially if they're done while you're pissed.

and could already punch trucks aside, busting an ice wall is not the limit for him.

Never said it was the limit, just saying that the feat in question is more of anti-feat than a supporting one. You can argue Newton's 3rd Law all you want, but at the end of the day it's going to look like an anti-feat rather than a supporting one.

Anyways, this is going around in a circle and I've already said my peace.

 

[JJSliderman]

Idk I just disagree with that, if Eggman already has multiple showings above wall level for durability, him hurting his hand after punching the wall should more be a feat of his strength rather than reducing his durability to wall.

 

[omegabronic]

I am Neutral atm

 

[Theuser789]

Change me to disagree. IDW is the only evidence, and that's contradicted by all the times Eggman used weapons.

 

[Eseseso]

Switching to disagree FRA

 

[JJSliderman]

Change me to disagree. IDW is the only evidence, and that's contradicted by all the times Eggman used weapons.

It’s not the only evidence, Eggman outright has a higher level of power than other Low 2-C characters when measuring stats in Riders and he can hurt himself.

And even if it was the only evidence, it comes near the very end of the timeline currently, Eggman could have just gotten stronger.