"With ups and downs, we proceed" Sonic the Hedgehog Upgrades and Downgrades thread

[omegabronic]

Blog power scaling stuff​

hello hello, this thread will be covering the newly accepted re calculations and new accepted tier 2 feats while also proposing new ratings based on accepted multipliers, with statements and some slightly different justifications

to simplify you can check this sandbox that is revising this blog to see the changes, for simplicity's sake:

Spoiler: Stellar Upgrade

Due to the recent accepted recalculation of the currently used Low 4-C feat, it now becomes a High 4-C feat, with all the chars who scales from there being affected, due to this all who scale to Pre-Stellar Lifting Strength now are upgraded to Multi Stellar as well since that is the new value fond due to the recalc

Spoiler: Universal power respect

Given the recent Low 2-C upgrades, of course the blog had to be updated to reflect them, and alongside them the scaling chain from it, this is by far the most simple addition

Spoiler: Team Blast Multiplier and Shadow edge guy

The Team Blast is the characters momentarily combining all their power and attacking at once amd being hyped as a "one shot m9ve" when compared to the other attacks in heroes, and due to the already accepted 8x multiplier that Max level characters have in Heroes, the power of a max level Team Blast would be of 24x(The combined power of the 3 chars times 8), and due to Shadow accepted as being stronger than what he was in heroes with power cores and the team blast, the midway adventure era peeps scale to it in base by the time of Shadow's Game

Spoiler: Egg Robo ultimate statement

The final boss of Sonic Lost World is said to be Eggmans "Ultimate combat weapon", which would translate to being superior in speed as well due to ultimate meaning "the best, most, or greatest of its kind" and "the best or most extreme example of something" making superior in all things combat to all of his previous mechs, including Metal Sonic during Sonic colors, who could use the accepted Multipliers speed amps, making him upscale from him in those

Spoiler: Spin Dash? More like Spin Down

It was fun while it lasted, but the Spin Dash calculation is invalid for one main reason: multipliers, despite how much evidence it may have, must not be reasoned and must instead be stated. Instead, because the technique allows characters to blitz those who were previously blitzing them to the point of seeing them as nearly frozen, the Spin Dash will be scaled above the Speed Shoes' stated 2x multiplier and massively above Sonic's own reaction speed of 4x/the VMaximum overdrive, with an "At least" tagged in it". The Drop Dash scales to that, the Super Peel Out above it since it's stated to be superior to the Spin Dash, and while that happens the Boost reverts back to being a 7.9x amp like it was before, while also with an "at least" for being superior to the 2 before.

Spoiler: Putting all the speed amps in the blog

Self Explanatory, actually putting all the speed amps in the blog instead of a few like it is currently

Spoiler: Super Sonic Power of the new Frontiers

Yeah the last year game still gave us good stuff, we are shown in Frontiers that a Super Form grows alongside the user, with every increase in power and speed the base for receives being proportionally added to the Super Form as well, so stronger base form = stronger Super Form to the same degree as the said stronger in comparison to the weaker

Blaze's Homing Attack​

Blaze's Fire Claw is said to be her version of the Homing Attack, thus she should have the abilities from it in her profile via this technique

Super Sonic 2/Cyber Super Sonic​

Simple enough, given the proposed Team Blast multiplier, and that we already accept that Super Sonic can amplify himself to do a Team Blast like attack, the gap between Super Sonic 2 and regular Super Sonic would be the same as the proposed Team Blast Multiplier, given that it is "Super Sonic's" hidden potential", aka superior anything regular thing base Super Sonic can do, for power this would be either 24x(Multiplier of max leveled Team Blast) or 8x (Multiplier of a regular Team Blast via upscaling from 3 power cores) i will leave that decision to the staff who will vote here, given that, it would also be superior to Super Sonic doing the Spin dash and Super Sonic boost, making him faster than Super Sonic using these techniques

Edit: Extra justification for Low 1-C​

Given the Emeralds constant statements of being the strongest power in verse, that would include the likes of Illumina, so that should be part of their justification

Since there are several other Sonic threads ongoing, this is prob the last one that should be left open until one them, or this one, conclude


With all that out of the way, discuss:

Agree: @Eseseso @Theuser789 (Agrees on most things, disagrees with the Team Blast multiplier) @ShakeResounding (Agrees with most, neutral on Cyber Super Sonic's upgrade) @Fezzih_007 @Snek (Agree with most things, disagrees with Shadow scaling above the Team Blast) @LaserPrecision (agrees with most things, disagrees on scaling to the max level Team Blast) @XxZetsuxX @Qawsedf234 (Agrees with everything, but prefers either the 3x multiplier for Cyber Super Sonic or 8x) @LordGriffin1000 (agrees with the majority, neutral on the Team Blast multiplier but okay with it if the majority agrees) @Maverick_Zero_X (Neutral on the team blast multiplier)

Disagree:

Neutral:

 

[Eseseso]

Looks fine.

Tbh I never liked the 300x spin dash multiplier being accepted since I thought the way it was calculated was iffy at best.

 

[Theuser789]

RIP the spindash upgrade, but everything else should be fine.

 

[ShakeResounding]

• I agree with the upgrades from Low 4-C to High 4-C.
• I agree with adding and documenting Low 2-C in the powerscaling blog.
• I agree with the Team Blast upscaling from the Teams at max level Power Cores.
• Agree with using Egg Robo statement.
• I agree with downgrading the Spin Dash from 300+x multiplier to 2x.
• Agree with adding the Speed Amps to the blog.
• Agree with the Frontiers stuff.
• Agree with the Fire Claw scaling to the Homing Attack
• Neutral on the Cyber Super Sonic strength stuff.

 

[Eseseso]

Super Sonic 2/Cyber Super Sonic​

Simple enough, given the proposed Team Blast multiplier, and that we already accept that Super Sonic can amplify himself to do a Team Blast like attack, the gap between Super Sonic 2 and regular Super Sonic would be the same as the proposed Team Blast Multiplier, given that it is "Super Sonic's" hidden potential", aka superior anything regular thing base Super Sonic can do, given that, it would also be superior to Super Sonic doing the Spin dash and Super Sonic boost, making him faster than Super Sonic using these techniques


Since there are several other Sonic threads ongoing, this is prob the last one that should be left open until one them, or this one, conclude


With all that out of the way, discuss:

Agree:

Disagree:

Neutral:

Actually, this confuses me, as nothing in the youtube link says that Super Sonic can do a Team Blast like attack on his own.

 

[omegabronic]

Actually, this confuses me, as nothing in the youtube link says that Super Sonic can do a Team Blast like attack on his own.

this is something already on the profile, i am just going with what's already accepted for this one

 

[Fezzih_007]

Agree with everything.

I sad about the Spin dash
The matches are kinda Fun.

 

[ShakeResounding]

Yeah it's a shame, but unfortunately 2x - 4x is probably the highest we could reasonably go without a stated multiplier to support it. Now its just in the "blitzes those who were previously blitzing you" range.

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

I agree with everything (R.I.P Spin dash multiplier) i just have a few questions:

Due to the recent accepted recalculation of the currently used Low 4-C feat, it now becomes a High 4-C feat, with all the chars who scales from there being affected, due to this all who scale to Pre-Stellar Lifting Strength now are upgraded to Multi Stellar as well since that is the new value fond due to the recalc

Shouldn´t this also scale to the Classic Era?

It was fun while it lasted, but the Spin Dash calculation is invalid for one main reason: multipliers, despite how much evidence it may have, must not be reasoned and must instead be stated. Instead, because the technique allows characters to blitz those who were previously blitzing them, the Spin Dash will be scaled above the Speed Shoes' stated 2x multiplier. The Drop Dash scales to that, the Super Peel Out to 4x since it's stated to be superior to the Spin Dash + scaling to the V Maximum Overdrive done by Metal, and while that happens the Boost reverts back to being a 7.9x amp like it was before.

When it was stated?

The Team Blast is the characters momentarily combining all their power and attacking at once, and due to the already accepted 8x multiplier that Max level characters have in Heroes, the power of a max level Team Blast would be of 24x(The combined power of the 3 chars times 8), and due to Shadow accepted as being stronger than what he was in heroes with power cores and the team blast, the midway adventure era peeps scale to it in base by the time of Shadow's Game[/SPOILER]

In which thread was the multiplier accepted?

 

[omegabronic]

Shouldn´t this also scale to the Classic Era?

it does, they are included in the "with all the chars who scales from there being affected" part, they go from low 4-C to high 4-C

When it was stated?

linked in the sandbox, will link in the OP as well

In which thread was the multiplier accepted?

don't remember

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

it does, they are included in the "with all the chars who scales from there being affected" part, they go from low 4-C to high 4-C

I am talking about the Classic Era LS

linked in the sandbox, will link in the OP as well

Ok

 

[omegabronic]

I am talking about the Classic Era LS

oh no, they never displayed scaling in LS to that, AP and Dura yes, but not LS, hence why they aren't Pre-Stellar currently

 

[Brogeefrong]

Sonic still keeps the 4x reaction speed aswell right?

 

[omegabronic]

yeah, that was never affected by the Spin Dash upgrade

 

[Snek]

I agree with nearly everything but don't agree with shadow being stronger than the team blast.

Mainly because the promotional material for shadow the hedgehog says that shadow is stronger then ever before implying he surpassed himself rather than the combined power of team dark.
Also what happened to classic sonics 7.8c speed calc. Was it forgotten or simply downgraded.

On a side note I'd like to ask how you guys made the sonic profiles so detailed and more importantly how much caffeine was involved in the process.

 

[omegabronic]

Mainly because the promotional material for shadow the hedgehog says that shadow is stronger then ever before implying he surpassed himself rather than the combined power of team dark.

The Team Blast is the 3 characters combining their own powers to launch an attakc, aka all 3 become stronger by the ammount of their sums and then attack together

Also what happened to classic sonics 7.8c speed calc. Was it forgotten or simply downgraded.

Done with thr spin dash, which is a speed amp, so not really valid for scaling to his bade speed

On a side note I'd like to ask how you guys made the sonic profiles so detailed and more importantly how much caffeine was involved in the process.

Hard work is hard, but satisfying

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

oh no, they never displayed scaling in LS to that, AP and Dura yes, but not LS, hence why they aren't Pre-Stellar currently

Then why Werehog Sonic will have Multi-Stellar LS?

 

[LaserPrecision]

I'm mostly in agreement. There's one thing I'd like to question further though.

Super Sonic 2/Cyber Super Sonic​

Simple enough, given the proposed Team Blast multiplier, and that we already accept that Super Sonic can amplify himself to do a Team Blast like attack, the gap between Super Sonic 2 and regular Super Sonic would be the same as the proposed Team Blast Multiplier, given that it is "Super Sonic's" hidden potential", aka superior anything regular thing base Super Sonic can do, given that, it would also be superior to Super Sonic doing the Spin dash and Super Sonic boost, making him faster than Super Sonic using these techniques

You would need evidence that this new power Sonic obtains in Frontiers is > Team Blaster. There's no implication of it in the scan linked. If there's a statement that it makes Sonic stronger than ever or its a power beyond anything else he had, I'd be in full support of it. But I don't think being stated to be a Hidden Power alone will suffice as a solid explanation. Nor do I think the gap should be the proposed 24x increase because that's explicitly the increase when the team has access to Power Cores which have confirmed multipliers. Whereas Team Blast is stated to output 3x the power of an individual member. So it'd be 3x Super Sonic unless Sonic had access to 3 Cores at the time, then it'd be fair game.
I'll also comment on this:

It was fun while it lasted, but the Spin Dash calculation is invalid for one main reason: multipliers, despite how much evidence it may have, must not be reasoned and must instead be stated. Instead, because the technique allows characters to blitz those who were previously blitzing them, the Spin Dash will be scaled above the Speed Shoes' stated 2x multiplier. The Drop Dash scales to that, the Super Peel Out to 4x since it's stated to be superior to the Spin Dash + scaling to the V Maximum Overdrive done by Metal, and while that happens the Boost reverts back to being a 7.9x amp like it was before.

I think the Spin Dash should upscale from the V Maximum Overdrive. That move is shown to be reacted to by Sonic and was never shown to be such a great increase that comparable characters enter slow-motion. Spin Dash is shown to increase speed so drastically that it makes people who Sonic initially couldn't be appear nearly frozen in place. So Spin Dash (And Super Peel Out which upscales Spin Dash) should be "At least 4x" as that's obviously a super lowballed estimate of the amp they provide. But I do agree the Spin Dash multiplier needs to go.

to simplify you can check this sandbox that is revising this blog to see the changes, for simplicity's sake:

This is just a minor thing, but I think having so many arrow indicators in the blog makes things look a little messy. But I can't really think of any alternatives at the moment. But given your proposition in the OP:

Yeah the last year game still gave us good stuff, we are shown in Frontiers that a Super Form grows alongside the user, with every increase in power and speed the base for receives being proportionally added to the Super Form as well, so stronger base form = stronger Super Form to the same degree as the said stronger in comparison to the weaker

Shouldn't there be a blog showcasing the gap between Super Sonic at its weakest versus at its strongest?

 

[omegabronic]

You would need evidence that this new power Sonic obtains in Frontiers is > Team Blaster. There's no implication of it in the scan linked. If there's a statement that it makes Sonic stronger than ever or its a power beyond anything else he had, I'd be in full support of it. But I don't think being stated to be a Hidden Power alone will suffice as a solid explanation. Nor do I think the gap should be the proposed 24x increase because that's explicitly the increase when the team has access to Power Cores which have confirmed multipliers. Whereas Team Blast is stated to output 3x the power of an individual member. So it'd be 3x Super Sonic unless Sonic had access to 3 Cores at the time, then it'd be fair game.

"Hidden Power" woulf suggest that it was a power that he has never displayed before, thus it was "hidden", as you can see vy the clip, the Team Blast like move performed is one of max level, thus it would be 24, i am open to more discussion to change it to 3x tho

I'll also comment on this:

I think the Spin Dash should upscale from the V Maximum Overdrive. That move is shown to be reacted to by Sonic and was never shown to be such a great increase that comparable characters enter slow-motion. Spin Dash is shown to increase speed so drastically that it makes people who Sonic initially couldn't be appear nearly frozen in place. So Spin Dash (And Super Peel Out which upscales Spin Dash) should be "At least 4x" as that's obviously a super lowballed estimate of the amp they provide. But I do agree the Spin Dash multiplier needs to go.

Fair enough, will leave that as a suggestion to see what other people think

This is just a minor thing, but I think having so many arrow indicators in the blog makes things look a little messy. But I can't really think of any alternatives at the moment. But given your proposition in the OP:

Shouldn't there be a blog showcasing the gap between Super Sonic at its weakest versus at its strongest?

Nah, it would be redundant given that we already have the numerical values listed in the blog, it already shows the differences in power through out the series, a "Super scaling blog" would be basically the same thing

 

[omegabronic]

Then why Werehog Sonic will have Multi-Stellar LS?

Because he is powered directly by them as the profile states

You asked about the classic cast, not the modern ones

 

[ShakeResounding]

"Hidden Power" woulf suggest that it was a power that he has never displayed before, thus it was "hidden", as you can see vy the clip, the Team Blast like move performed is one of max level, thus it would be 24, i am open to more discussion to change it to 3x tho

After further thought, I agree with Laser that being referred to as his "Hidden Power" isn't enough. How much is hidden, for example? Half? 3/4th? We don't get an exact gauge without some sort of guesswork. I do think 3x is reasonable though.

Also, I'm fine with the Spin Dash being ~4x multiplier via Laser's reasoning.

 

[omegabronic]

After further thought, I agree with Laser that being referred to as his "Hidden Power" isn't enough. How much is hidden, for example? Half? 3/4th? We don't get an exact gauge without some sort of guesswork. I do think 3x is reasonable though.

will leave the 3x as a option in the OP then

btw you disagreed with the reasoning only to agree with it, what's up with that?

Also, I'm fine with the Spin Dash being ~4x multiplier via Laser's reasoning.

will put that in the OP as well

 

[Brogeefrong]

Does 4x spin dash change any of the speed amps

 

[omegabronic]

Does 4x spin dash change any of the speed amps

nah, not much

 

[LaserPrecision]

"Hidden Power" woulf suggest that it was a power that he has never displayed before, thus it was "hidden", as you can see vy the clip, the Team Blast like move performed is one of max level, thus it would be 24, i am open to more discussion to change it to 3x tho

I agree that it implies he had power that it was hidden. But we're given no indication of how MUCH power was hidden. So we can't exactly claim it to be > Team Blast. Let alone a temporary amp Team Blast (Cores aren't permanent amps).

24x comes from a temporary amp only available in Sonic Heroes. The move itself only triples the power of an attack (By combining the strength of three members into one attack) under normal circumstances. And it's not even technically a 24x amp WITH the cores, it's still a 3x increase, it just triples the power of someone who is already 8x stronger than usual because of an amp, and thus when tripled its SUM would be 24x Base. Not by itself.

Nah, it would be redundant given that we already have the numerical values listed in the blog, it already shows the differences in power through out the series, a "Super scaling blog" would be basically the same thing

The problem is the blog isn't clear where Super Sonic STARTS being Low 1-C. Is Classic Low 1-C? Does it start in 06? etc. A blog designated to Super Forms would make it a lot easier Granted you don't need to make the blog, I've talked about it with Shake before and he believes it to be a good idea.

Btw, might this be worth putting in the OP somewhere?

Heroes statement that explicitly confirms power being tripled.

 

[omegabronic]

I agree that it implies he had power that it was hidden. But we're given no indication of how MUCH power was hidden. So we can't exactly claim it to be > Team Blast. Let alone a temporary amp Team Blast (Cores aren't permanent amps).

24x comes from a temporary amp only available in Sonic Heroes. The move itself only triples the power of an attack (By combining the strength of three members into one attack) under normal circumstances. And it's not even technically a 24x amp WITH the cores, it's still a 3x increase, it just triples the power of someone who is already 8x stronger than usual because of an amp, and thus when tripled its SUM would be 24x Base. Not by itself.

already put your view in the OP, i will let staff decide this one since we would be going back and forth, i think 24 makes sense, but if others think 3 is better, i wouldn't pull my hairs

The problem is the blog isn't clear where Super Sonic STARTS being Low 1-C. Is Classic Low 1-C? Does it start in 06? etc. A blog designated to Super Forms would make it a lot easier Granted you don't need to make the blog, I've talked about it with Shake before and he believes it to be a good idea.

huh? that is not a thing, The Chaos Emerald still vary in their potency, and Gens shows that even in the Classic Era Sonic was able to access the upper schalon of power from the Emeralds (Low 1-C), Classic Chars such as Ray have a "potentially" rating of Low 1-C and i am not planning on removing them, within the tiers we currently rate them they would be higher or lower based on which era the Super Form is in and how strong the base char is, the baseline is Classic Sonic
Will add more to the note in the end of the blog tho

Btw, might this be worth putting in the OP somewhere?

Heroes statement that explicitly confirms power being tripled.

i......dunno? it doesn't much of anything really, the Team Blast is already stronger than that

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Btw, I have been questioning this for awhile

Shouldn't everyone have 7.9x reaction speed?

The spindash is now 7.9x speed amp

Everyone can react to the spindash

Sonic/Shadow for example in Sonic adventure 2 both of them can react to the spindash and even block them

So why do they have 4x reaction instead of 7.9x?


Also agree with everything, Rip spindash ;c

 

[GlaceonGamez471]

The spindash is now 7.9x speed amp

No it isn't, only the Boost is

 

[XxZetsuxX]

No it isn't, only the Boost is

Oh, Nvm then, Thanks for correcting me

But why they didn't have 346x reaction speed before then?

 

[Brogeefrong]

Oh, Nvm then, Thanks for correcting me

But why they didn't have 346x reaction speed before then?

they had 346x4 reaction speed
also does sonic have 32x reactions cause 8x speed amp x 4x reaction speeds

 

[XxZetsuxX]

they had 346x4 reaction speed
also does sonic have 32x reactions cause 8x speed amp x 4x reaction speeds

O-O

Oh, Alright then, Thanks for telling me

 

[omegabronic]

they had 346x4 reaction speed
also does sonic have 32x reactions cause 8x speed amp x 4x reaction speeds

Oh, Nvm then, Thanks for correcting me

But why they didn't have 346x reaction speed before then?

no they didn't, the whole feat for the 300+multiplier was based on them being blitzed and then blitzing back

they never scaled to 300+ their own speed in reactions


answering the question, no, the reaction speed comes from Sonic reacting the the V Maximum overdrive, which is a multiplier of that level

 

[ShakeResounding]

Btw, might this be worth putting in the OP somewhere?

Heroes statement that explicitly confirms power being tripled.

That's talking about your teammates following up with their own Homing Attacks to triple the output of damage (at 0 Power Cores, they each do 1 damage with it).

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

A multiplier can't be achieved through calculations, that's literally the same as calculating two AP feats from two different forms and gathering a multiplier from it, it's silly.

 

[CloverDragon03]

A multiplier can't be achieved through calculations, that's literally the same as calculating two AP feats from two different forms and gathering a multiplier from it, it's silly.

What exactly are you referring to here?

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

Good job

Didn't read but good job

 

[Qawsedf234]

Due to the recent accepted recalculation of the currently used Low 4-C feat, it now becomes a High 4-C feat, with all the chars who scales from there being affected, due to this all who scale to Pre-Stellar Lifting Strength now are upgraded to Multi Stellar as well since that is the new value fond due to the recalc

I think this is fine, though I have to ask where this was accepted at? Because I don't see a comment from Clover and a different calc mod would have to comment on it (I think at least). EDIT: Oh this was a delayed update, so it happened back in July. Well I guess it's fine then upgrade wise.

For the sandbox I would get rid of the ">" if you have an explicit number associated with the increase. Or if that's not possible then do something like Hyperdimensional Neptuna where they have a full scaling list from start to finish of the Tier 2 ratings.

So as an example, say Forces Sonic is 8x Low 2-C. Then you'd have Frontiers Sonic at 32x Low 2-C.

For Shadow I would think 8x makes more sense than 24x, since he's just stronger than himself rather than his entire team at once from what I'm reading.

Cyber Super Sonic I would belive 8x over 3x or 24x.

The rest I don't have any concerns/questions on.

 

[omegabronic]

For the sandbox I would get rid of the ">" if you have an explicit number associated with the increase. Or if that's not possible then do something like Hyperdimensional Neptuna where they have a full scaling list from start to finish of the Tier 2 ratings.

So as an example, say Forces Sonic is 8x Low 2-C. Then you'd have Frontiers Sonic at 32x Low 2-C.

pretty much the only one with a associated number is Sonic's potential unlock in Frontiers, all the others are statements of being stronger and one shot gaps

For Shadow I would think 8x makes more sense than 24x, since he's just stronger than himself rather than his entire team at once from what I'm reading.

in the Team Blast all 3 are amplified to this level, as shown when even with only 1 of the team is attacking, the power is still the combination of all 3's power, showing that their power during it is combined for all 3 of them

Cyber Super Sonic I would belive 8x over 3x or 24x.

why 8x specifically?

 

[Qawsedf234]

pretty much the only one with a associated number is Sonic's potential unlock in Frontiers, all the others are statements of being stronger and one shot gaps

Dang.

in the Team Blast all 3 are amplified to this level, as shown when even with only 1 of the team is attacking, the power is still the combination of all 3's power, showing that their power during it is combined for all 3 of them

Team Blast is 3x * 8x at max level, since it's three people collectively working together. I get saying Shadow is above his 8x amp but 24x would involve being stronger than all of Team Dark working together at once.

I know you can technically trigger the move when you're down one or both other characters (which is what I think you're arguing), but contextually it's specifically a team move where all three are working together at once to attack their enemies.

why 8x specifically?

His hidden potential is already 4x, so my assumption was that Cyber Super Sonic would be superior to Power Core amps.

If that doesn't work then I would be more for 3x than I would 24x. Especially without a hard number to back a larger multiplier.

 

[Theuser789]

Team Dark's Team Blast is just Omega attacking, actually. Shadow just stops time with Chaos Control and Rouge lifts the robot up. I don’t know why Shadow would scale to an attack from Omega.