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EGGMAN SHOOTS PEOPLE IN THE FACE but it’s Low 2-C

What is the problem with Starline durability scaling exactly.

It’s very blatant and backed up by him damaging Cubot who has Low 2-C dura scaling from Lost World, meaning there are two feats in IDW for Eggman scaling. The exact amount equivalent to his speed scaling on his page from that arc, with these events coming at the tail end of the timeline, I don’t think outlier holds up.
 
JJSliderman said:
And considering Cubot was attacking Tails with intent to kill, Sonic likely put some effort in. It shows Eggman scales to a held back Sonic, who shouldn’t be infinitely weaker than his standard power.
Click to expand...
Alright then, let's assume that Sonic wasn't holding back enough for it to not be below Low 2-C. Then in that case it's likely an outlier for Cubot seeing as he has never shown any similar scaling before or after.
 
Cubot barely has showings, period. Another of his showings was surviving being sucked into a black hole created by the Wisps, which are also Low 2-C, alongside the Eggmobile after the battle with Nega Wisp Armor. So in 2 of his games (of which there’s like 3-4 mainline ones where’s he majorly involved), he has Low 2-C dura scaling.
 
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JJSliderman said:
Cubot barely has showings, period. Another of his showings was surviving being sucked into a black hole created by the Wisps, which are also Low 2-C, alongside the Eggmobile after the battle with Nega Wisp Armor.
Click to expand...
That's likely another outlier for Cubot. If the Wisps needed to save Sonic from the blackhole, who was barely conscious from it, then how could Cubot survive with no issues? (And before you bring up that the Egg Mobile survived it and still gets damaged by Sonic, the Egg Mobile has taken countless hits from Sonic through the entire franchise while Cubot has nothing like that.)

And another thing, Orbot was there too, yet despite both of them being compressed by Eggman during the Starline Arc (Which ngl, I don't see how that would count as a feat, seeing as they're made to do that in the first place.), Orbot is perfectly fine afterwards.
Why would Eggman only apply enough power to get Cubot stuck, yet not enough for Orbot despite them both being the same durability wise? It makes no sense.
 
It’s a feat because while they are made to be compressed, they can also uncompress at any time, but Eggman pressed down hard enough that Cubot was unable to uncompress, meaning some of his internal circuitry was damaged.

I also disagree it’s an outlier for Cubot, if he has so few games and about half of them show he can take hits on a base Sonic tier level, it should be consistent for him. Starline has one showing of Low 2-C dura and yet it’s still on his profile. As for why he was less hurt, it can just be due to Sonic being tired from fighting the Nega Wisp Armor previously, or that Sonic tanked a larger version of the black hole. It further adds to the idea Cubot, and by extension Eggman, is downscaling.

As for why only Cubot was like that, it’s because he tends to be messed up a lot more in the series physically compared to Orbot due to being the character more used for gags, and Eggman finds Cubot more annoying due to his stupidity, which could explain why Eggman put more pressure on Cubot. But he can still scale to casual Base stuff in durability so, doesn’t matter that much.
 
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JJSliderman said:
I also disagree it’s an outlier for Cubot, if he has so few games and about half of them show he can take hits on a base Sonic tier level, it should be consistent for him. Starline has one showing of Low 2-C dura and yet it’s still on his profile.
Click to expand...
It's not that he's in fewer games, it's that he has fewer showings of this stuff compared to everyone else. If he was a one-off character like Mephiles, then yeah I'd be fine with him scaling to that. But since he's being treated as a part of main cast for every single piece of media from now on, he'd need to have more showings of this type of stuff.

And as for Starline having Low 2-C dura, I think we should remove it. Especially seeing as he needed the Tricore in the first place just to keep up with the cast.
JJSliderman said:
As for why he was less hurt, it can just be due to Sonic being tired from fighting the Nega Wisp Armor previously, or that Sonic tanked a larger version of the black hole. It further adds to the idea Cubot, and by extension Eggman, is downscaling.
Click to expand...
To my knowledge, they were still in that blackhole when Sonic went inside the bigger version of the black hole, so Sonic being in a larger version of it compared to the other three doesn't add up.

Not only that, but Cubot and Orbot in the same cutscene that they're sucked into the black hole look like they're knocked out. So that just makes this even worst, seeing as a knocked out Or and Cu were capable of tanking a black hole that left Sonic barely conscious while Sonic was still up and active before getting sucked up.
JJSliderman said:
As for why only Cubot was like that, it’s because he tends to be messed up a lot more in the series physically compared to Orbot due to being the character more used for gags. But he can still scale to casual Base stuff in durability so, doesn’t matter that much.
Click to expand...
That still doesn't change the fact that it makes no sense that Eggman needed to apply more power to shoving Cubot down compared to Orbot, despite the both of them being the exact same in terms of durability.
 
Theuser789 said:
Trying to have Eggman at low 2-C by scaling him to Cubot of all people is a strech and a half.

Just give it up.
Click to expand...
No, Eggman should be Low 2-C if Starline has Low 2-C durability, Cubot has Low 2-C durability and Eggman can harm him, and the only reason I can think of to deny it is it being an outlier, which I think is wrong. Starline should have Low 2-C dura because he tanked hits from Amy without the Tricore very clearly, and Eggman can harm him easily. To say Eggman isn’t Low 2-C would imply his attack power is infinitely below the dura level of someone he one-shot, which I don’t think I need to explain makes no sense.
y3p_owo said:
It's not that he's in fewer games, it's that he has fewer showings of this stuff compared to everyone else. If he was a one-off character like Mephiles, then yeah I'd be fine with him scaling to that. But since he's being treated as a part of main cast for every single piece of media from now on, he'd need to have more showings of this type of stuff.
Click to expand...
How many showings does he need? He’s in 3 mainline games as a major character, and 2 of those games have him with this level of dura. For a non-combatant I think that’s sufficient.
y3p_owo said:
And as for Starline having Low 2-C dura, I think we should remove it. Especially seeing as he needed the Tricore in the first place just to keep up with the cast.
Click to expand...
In the scan of Starline on his dura section, you can clearly tell when he has the Tricore active or not based on his aura, and when he’s tanking hits, he doesn’t have it active. So it does apply to his base dura.
y3p_owo said:
To my knowledge, they were still in that blackhole when Sonic went inside the bigger version of the black hole, so Sonic being in a larger version of it compared to the other three doesn't add up.

Not only that, but Cubot and Orbot in the same cutscene that they're sucked into the black hole look like they're knocked out. So that just makes this even worst, seeing as a knocked out Or and Cu were capable of tanking a black hole that left Sonic barely conscious while Sonic was still up and active before getting sucked up.
Click to expand...
They weren’t knocked out, they were in their compressed forms, you’d have to prove they were knocked out.
y3p_owo said:
That still doesn't change the fact that it makes no sense that Eggman needed to apply more power to shoving Cubot down compared to Orbot, despite the both of them being the exact same in terms of durability.
Click to expand...
They don’t have to be the same durability, Cubot is the one more often broken apart as shown by Lost World. And Cubot still has dura feats on the level of Low 2-C via Colors and Lost World, so Eggman damaging him with force should be Low 2-C power.
 
JJSliderman said:
No, Eggman should be Low 2-C if Starline has Low 2-C durability, Cubot has Low 2-C durability and Eggman can harm him, and the only reason I can think of to deny it is it being an outlier, which I think is wrong. Starline should have Low 2-C dura because he tanked hits from Amy without the Tricore very clearly, and Eggman can harm him easily. To say Eggman isn’t Low 2-C would imply his attack power is infinitely below the dura level of someone he one-shot, which I don’t think I need to explain makes no sense.
Click to expand...
Cubot requires a feat where Sonic was very likely holding back just to remove his head from the Crabmeat's body and an outlier.

Starline requires a single feat that goes against why he made the Tricore in the first place.
JJSliderman said:
In the scan of Starline on his dura section, you can clearly tell when he has the Tricore active or not based on his aura, and when he’s tanking hits, he doesn’t have it active. So it does apply to his base dura.
Click to expand...
Yeah, one feat compared to years worth of scaling compared to everyone else. Not only that, but the series makes it clear that Starline is physically inferior compared to everyone else, seeing as the very reason why the Tricore was made in the first place was so he could have a chance.
JJSliderman said:
They weren’t knocked out, they were in their compressed forms, you’d have to prove they were knocked out.
Click to expand...
Their eyes were closed. And we know that they can open their eyes while compressed, seeing as Cubot is capable opening them during the Starline Arc. Plus, this was during the cutscene where Eggman lost, so it makes sense that they're knocked out.
JJSliderman said:
They don’t have to be the same durability, Cubot is the one more often broken apart as shown by Lost World. And Cubot still has dura feats on the level of Low 2-C via Colors and Lost World, so Eggman damaging him with force should be Low 2-C power.
Click to expand...
They do. They literally tanked the same black hole.
But speaking of Lost World, you just reminded me how Cubot became a head in the first place: He lost it due to a regular Badnik. So that's anti-feat that goes against him scaling to Low 2-C.
 
Those same badniks were stated to be able to mess Tails up, so they’re also Low 2-C. Not an anti-feat.

Also I don’t get why it being a long franchise matters, characters can get changes to them no matter how long the franchise goes, and sometimes those changes go against what the character was originally. Eggman is a lot more of a grappler and hands on fighter in the modern era than he was before, specifically after Forces, so him being more powerful isn’t unwarranted.

Their eyes being closed doesn’t make them knocked out, their eyes could just be closed.

Eggman uses mechs to combat Sonic all the time yet he still has physical durability on par with them, Starline can be the same.
 
JJSliderman said:
Those same badniks were stated to be able to mess Tails up, so they’re also Low 2-C. Not an anti-feat.
Click to expand...
Alright, let's assume that these Badniks are full-on Low 2-C. Cubot got instantly defeated by one while Eggman's Egg Mobile could take multiple hits, and even then it required a couple of Zetis, who are far superior than the Badniks, to really take it down. And keep in mind, both him and the Egg Mobile survived the very same thing (the black hole) while in not good conditions.

If Cubot really was Low 2-C, then either he shouldn't have gotten insta-defeated and taken multiple hits and Zetis like the Egg Mobile or the Egg Mobile should've gotten insta-defeated like him by just one shot.

So yeah, this is an anti-feat.
JJSliderman said:
Their eyes being closed doesn’t make them knocked out, their eyes could just be closed.
Click to expand...
  1. We know that they can open their eyes while compressed.
  2. Eggman was defeated during the cutscene that their eyes were closed.
  3. They didn't even react to being taken into the black hole.
I'm sorry, but the evidence is pointing them being knocked out.

Also, why would they, or at the very least Orbot, just decided "Hey, I should close my eyes" for no reason?
JJSliderman said:
Eggman uses mechs to combat Sonic all the time yet he still has physical durability on par with them, Starline can be the same.
Click to expand...
Yes, because of constant scaling to them and surviving his machines, that are on-par with Sonic, exploding while he's still in there. Starline has nothing like that.
 
Cubot is a lower tier Low 2-C in durability and these Badniks scale to Tails, him losing to them is valid and doesn’t detract from anything.

Eggman has been defeated before and the robots didn’t have their eyes closed, so him being defeated doesn’t mean anything. And also, being knocked out doesn’t make them less durable. They’re robots, they can’t control their durability with consciousness.

Okay so now Starline needs to consistently scale to their attack power to be Low 2-C, even though he’s a character with limited appearances and is now dead. How is that supposed to work? What is the threshold for when something becomes an outlier, because to me it feels very arbitrary.

Why does Eggman needing his mechs matter? He downscales, he can’t beat them in fights on his own, he has no chance, but he has the capacity to slightly harm them.
 
You've said this repeatedly. Doesn't mean I have to agree

Also you say Eggman can downscale, yet earlier you assert he'd be superior due to being a power type in a spin-off where Sonic is a speed-type and moving a damn truck that Sonic can't, so what are you actually going for here?
 
He was superior in games from 2006 and 2008, Sonic has accelerated development, he can be stronger than Eggman nowadays. Low 2-C Sonic in 2006 is <<<<< Low 2-C Sonic today.
 
And I don't agree. With the evidence you've provided so far, I don't agree to Base Eggman being Low 2-C. You'll need better evidence to convince me, given the overall narrative for Sonic being that Eggman needs his mechs to even remotely stand a chance
 
Exactly what kind of better evidence? He one-shots a Low 2-C dura guy, stomps on a robot with Low 2-C dura, can hurt himself who has Low 2-C dura, and has a better strength stat than early modern Sonic and Amy (who are still considered Low 2-C).
 
JJSliderman said:
Cubot is a lower tier Low 2-C in durability and these Badniks scale to Tails, him losing to them is valid and doesn’t detract from anything.
Click to expand...
Cubot is literally the same tier of Low 2-C durability as the Egg Mobile going off of what you're trying to give us. Him being a lower tier literally makes no sense.
JJSliderman said:
Eggman has been defeated before and the robots didn’t have their eyes closed, so him being defeated doesn’t mean anything. And also, being knocked out doesn’t make them less durable. They’re robots, they can’t control their durability with consciousness.
Click to expand...
They were in the cutscene of Eggman's defeat.
Their eyes were closed.
Eggman was defeated.
They didn't react to getting sucked up into the black hole.

All this points to is that they were knocked out. It literally makes no sense for them to just decide to close their eyes for no reason and not react to the black hole.

And yeah, being knocked out DOES mean you have less durability. It means that you're open to attacks. It's why people get injured or even die more easily when they're taken by surprise. It's called having your guard down, and when your guard is down you can't prepare/brace yourself for anything type of attack or damage or anything. It doesn't matter if you're a robot or not, if you're guard is down, you're going to be more vulnerable.
JJSliderman said:
Okay so now Starline needs to consistently scale to their attack power to be Low 2-C, even though he’s a character with limited appearances and is now dead. How is that supposed to work? What is the threshold for when something becomes an outlier, because to me it feels very arbitrary.
Click to expand...
Well maybe if IDW and Ian Flynn didn't make the Tricore literally the reason why he's comparable to the main cast, then it wouldn't be an outlier.
 
y3p_owo said:
Cubot is literally the same tier of Low 2-C durability as the Egg Mobile going off of what you're trying to give us. Him being a lower tier literally makes no sense.
Click to expand...
That was the Colors Eggmobile, the characters are getting stronger as time passes if Forces is anything to go by. Sonic literally jumped from Star to MSS in 5 minutes in Battle.
y3p_owo said:
They were in the cutscene of Eggman's defeat.
Their eyes were closed.
Eggman was defeated.
They didn't react to getting sucked up into the black hole.

All this points to is that they were knocked out. It literally makes no sense for them to just decide to close their eyes for no reason and not react to the black hole.
Click to expand...
I still don’t see how them being knocked out is relevant.
y3p_owo said:
And yeah, being knocked out DOES mean you have less durability. It means that you're open to attacks. It's why people get injured or even die more easily when they're taken by surprise. It's called having your guard down, and when your guard is down you can't prepare/brace yourself for anything type of attack or damage or anything. It doesn't matter if you're a robot or not, if you're guard is down, you're going to be more vulnerable.
Click to expand...
Robots don’t have nerves or synapses or anything to brace themselves with, their durability should remain consistent. Even if they were off guard, their durability should not be an infinite degree lower than normal.
y3p_owo said:
Well maybe if IDW and Ian Flynn didn't make the Tricore literally the reason why he's comparable to the main cast, then it wouldn't be an outlier.
Click to expand...
He needed the Tricore to keep up with their AP, he already scaled in speed just fine, so no, he doesn’t need it to scale in every department.

Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
This feels like taking several logical leaps in order to come to a pre-determined conclusion rather than just looking at this and realizing that maybe low 2-C IS inconsistent.
Click to expand...
It’s not, the characters are consistently getting stronger and sometimes the time it takes for them to get stronger is a period of 5 minutes. Eggman being stronger in 2006 shouldn’t mean he scales to the higher echelons of base Sonic.
 
Oh okay, so when I make it it’s “poorly made”.

Moreover if I don’t know how many showings Eggman needs to get upgraded then I think it just further reinforces the idea that outlier is an arbitrary concept.
 
Again, how is it inconsistent if Eggman has 3, possibly 4 showings in the modern era.

Like what even is “consistent” at this point.
 
Okay, then explain what consistent is. Right now, so I can understand it, specifically name the amount of showings required. Because it can’t entirely be number of showings if Sonic was accepted as 4-A based off one piece of scaling, and base Eggman is accepted as MFTL+ based off (from what is visible on his profile), two showings about 4 issues apart in comics.
 
Being real I don’t consider outlier a valid reason until I get a clear explanation of what it would take for it to not be an outlier, either based on number of showings or recency of showings or some other metric. Saying it’s an outlier tells me nothing.
 
How can I convince people if I don’t have the information to know when I cross the non-outlier threshold?
 
Well if I can’t get an answer to that, I think Eggman’s guns should still be Low 2-C. They were a threat in Riders to where Amy didn’t even try to retaliate, he held the Riders cast at gunpoint after the Babylon Guardian fight, he can damage opponents in races with his party popper in Riders, he had Tangle completely incapacitated using his gun, his deconstruction gun was dangerous enough that Rouge had to pull Tails out of the way, and Surge chose to dodge Eggman’s laser blaster as opposed to tanking it.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
This feels like taking several logical leaps in order to come to a pre-determined conclusion rather than just looking at this and realizing that maybe low 2-C IS inconsistent.
Click to expand...
The tier isn’t the issue. It’s the scaling that prevents Robotnik from being among the likes of Sonic and crew. Current Era Sonic could be back in Tier 5 and 4 and the Robotnik AP scaling from the OP still wouldn’t be valid
 
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