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Possible Alien X buff (Also an almost definite buff for 2-B things in the verse)

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The_Smashor

The_Smashor

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The key word here is "Possible", by the way. And spoilers, it would mean X shares a tier with he who shall not be named. Thanks, I hate it already.

Given how much this character has been analyzed, I don't think I'm actually adding anything new to the discussion, but in the event I was I'd like to share this.

Basically, this little tidbit on Alien X's profile intrigued me:
Existence Erasure (Stated by Servantis that with a Celestialsapien form, Ben could one day wipe everything out of existence)
Click to expand...
Unfortunately, this wasn't cited, so if someone could share this that'd be great. This was stated by Servantis, who should be knowledgeable enough on the subject given his immense intelligence. Of course, on it's own it dosn't give Alien X anything since there's no timeframe given.

And then we have this on the Chronosapien time bomb's profile:

Multiverse level (Can wipe out all known timelines in the multiverse, consisting of hundreds of timelines that branch off "ad infinitum" according to Professor Paradox)
Click to expand...

Now, the timelines are stated to branch off "Ad Infinitum". By dictionary definition, Ad Infinitum is "without end or limit". This means that the Ben 10 multiverse would have infinite universes, not the countless we currently give it.

This would buff, just to my knowledge, Professor Paradox, Vilgax, and of course the Chronosapien Time Bomb itself.

And then we come to a little quirk with our tiering system: Even if no timeframe is given, to destroy an infinite multiverse at all is a 2-A feat.

That's right. 2-A Alien X.

Hal still speedblitzes though.
 
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Ad infinitum in this case is refering to the timelines braching, so it means timelines create other timelines forever, other wise he wouldn't have said "hundreds" before hand
 
Zamasu disagreeing does not mean it is debunked. People have targeted that since then and staff disagreed with its removal.

Aside from that the wiki is in this weird state where half of the people can scale their AP to their EE and half of them can’t. I wanted to make a thread on it but didn’t really care enough tbh. (Destroying the multiverse in an ad-infinitum multiverse is still 2-B even if over time since you need to be faster than the branching of the timestream(s))

Ad-infinitum was addressed before (for like literal months on end) and while it can mean “at infinity” it can also mean “to infinity”. There’s also Maltruant outright stating that the timestream is infinite and Holiday from Generator Rex outright stating there are infinite dimensions/universes (with each universe containing their own timestream btw). The former was sorta rejected because “it can mean a single timeline is infinite in length” (despite that combined with an infinite-sized universe which we can actually prove still results in 2-A, but I digress) and the latter was argued against that “the extraordinary genius isn’t smart enough to deduce that and she was doubting the existence of the multiverse in the beginning of the episode”.

In other words, I don’t think much is changing here, but I wouldn’t mind it. I also have a drawing of the cosmology if people want it btw.
 
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The_Smashor said:
No, what made him 2-B was him being considered stronger than the Time Bomb via a pretty vague statement from Pradox.
Click to expand...
Incorrect (funny, even the correction is wrong lol), he scaled above the chrono Navigator via a member of his species being called the strongest power in the universe by the guy holding a 2-B (over time?) weapon in his hand, among other things to support that.
 
Eficiente said:
Wipe everything out is way too vague to refer to the multiverse, even as "possibly" so as how we use it.
Click to expand...
You do realize the guy who is saying that is in a pocket dimension outside of the universe right? Even people who can blow up star systems are beneath the notice of his black ops plumber unit to give an example. Anyways I don’t see why “wipe out everything” doesn’t refer to everything he knows, which would be the multiverse since he mentions other universes in the follow-up episode.
 
I just realized something.

Note: The Contumelia seem to be one of the cases when the creators did not apply the full implications of a higher-dimensional scale, as they need technology to create or destroy universes, which is why they have Unknown statistics.
Click to expand...
Wouldn't needing technology to create or destroy universes be considered Area of Effect fallacy? It's not like every 3D being can destroy 2D universes. I think there's other things against the Contumelia being 5D but this shouldn't really be the example, or at least the only one.
 
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The_Smashor said:
I just realized something.


Wouldn't needing technology to create or destroy universes be considered Area of Effect fallacy? It's not like every 3D being can destroy 2D universes. I think there's other things against the Contumelia being 5D but this shouldn't really be the example, or at least the only one.
Click to expand...
I mean that is a pretty old note. They're accepted as 5D beings, but being 5D by itself doesn't give AP here. I haven't seen anything that contradicts them being Low 1-C though (since that is what you are implying), at best you can bring up their ship, but they never said their ship is 5D.

I agree with what you said though, in fact it's never stated that they need technology to create universes (and the destruction of the universe was an accident after the Contumelia had long been deceased, so that certainly isn't an argument).

Heck it's even implied by Maltruant that they could have intervened and stopped his Big Bang.

And now that I think about it, the Ben 10 universe should be 5D in size since the contumelia needed protection from the Big Bang, which would only be needed if the Big Bang had a 5D component to it and thus created the universe in 5 directions. But I'm not sure if that changes anything tiering-wise though.
 
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Greenshifter said:
And now that I think about it, the Ben 10 universe should be 5D in size since the contumelia needed protection from the Big Bang, which would only be needed if the Big Bang had a 5D component to it and thus created the universe in 5 directions. But I'm not sure if that changes
Click to expand...
You need to prove said dimensions being actually superior to lower ones rather than just additional axis.
 
Greenshifter said:
You do realize the guy who is saying that is in a pocket dimension outside of the universe right? Even people who can blow up star systems are beneath the notice of his black ops plumber unit to give an example. Anyways I don’t see why “wipe out everything” doesn’t refer to everything he knows, which would be the multiverse since he mentions other universes in the follow-up episode.
Click to expand...
You'd still need evidence that he'd wipe out the 4-D timelines and not just the 3-D universel space of all of them.
 
Greenshifter said:
You do realize the guy who is saying that is in a pocket dimension outside of the universe right? Even people who can blow up star systems are beneath the notice of his black ops plumber unit to give an example. Anyways I don’t see why “wipe out everything” doesn’t refer to everything he knows, which would be the multiverse since he mentions other universes in the follow-up episode.
Click to expand...
You seem to be under the dogmatic presumption that "everything" has to already mean either "everything in the universe" or "everything in the multiverse", which is false, "everything" is just a word, the multiverse was never mentioned. "Everything" can mean lots of things, the lesser the scale of the take the more likely it is, the bigger the more unlikely it becomes and the more proof it needs, and this lacks any.

Also he doesn't even say wipe out, but wish everything out of existence, which can means that he could transport everything into another dimension. The only thing that would go against it is the false presumption that it had to mean destruction because "that shows power" or something, which is irrelevant as it too shows a lot of power to use the other take, not to mention that both would similarly cause a lot of chaos.
 
Eficiente said:
You seem to be under the dogmatic presumption that "everything" has to already mean either "everything in the universe" or "everything in the multiverse", which is false, "everything" is just a word, the multiverse was never mentioned. "Everything" can mean lots of things, the lesser the scale of the take the more likely it is, the bigger the more unlikely it becomes and the more proof it needs, and this lacks any.

Also he doesn't even say wipe out, but wish everything out of existence, which can means that he could transport everything into another dimension. The only thing that would go against it is the false presumption that it had to mean destruction because "that shows power" or something, which is irrelevant as it too shows a lot of power to use the other take, not to mention that both would similarly cause a lot of chaos.
Click to expand...
Definition of everything by Oxford Dictionary: “all things”.
The other definition would be: “the current situation; life in general.” Which doesn’t apply here since Servantis isn’t asking people “how’s everything going lads”.

The multiverse is a “thing” that fits under “all things”. Any other interpretation that deviates from the definition of the word, would need evidence, which you lack.

Wishing something out of existence is EE, since it’s transferring it from a state of existence to a state of non-existence. Teleporting the contents of a universe to another dimension/universe wouldn’t really… do anything, unless you’re talking about fusing the contents of 2 universes or something? Servantis is also talking in a destructive context here since To’kustars, the aliens mentioned before Alien X, are a threat due to their power level.

Also the destruction of the multiverse wouldn’t create chaos, it’d be the end of all chaos… literally. Can’t have chaos if there’s nobody left to fear something or someone.
 
Even if the Ben 10 verse is considered 2-A for that statement. The guy says he could "wish everything out of existence", which doesn't sound like a raw power feat to me so at best that would be Multiverse level range for hax.
 
Honestly this should be the last Ben 10 verse God tiers CRT, because, like the Bleach ones, this kind of discussions keep to happen since 2019, and if we don't do something many other circular CRTs will keep coming with no end. I'm talking about CRTs such as:
  1. This (the most important one among these)
  2. This
  3. This
  4. This
  5. This
  6. And this (the 3-A downgrade)
There are obviously more, but this should make y'all understand that the arguments are basically the same for both upgrade and downgrade. My proposal is to make this CRT the last one about Ben 10 verse cosmology and how the God tiers scale to it, then make a discussion rule to prevent other CRTs which don't bring anything new/relevant to the table from coming.
 
LordGriffin1000 said:
Even if the Ben 10 verse is considered 2-A for that statement. The guy says he could "wish everything out of existence", which doesn't sound like a raw power feat to me so at best that would be Multiverse level range for hax.
Click to expand...
Yeah but I thought some hax can be taken as AP e.g Zeno EE.
 
LordGriffin1000 said:
Even if the Ben 10 verse is considered 2-A for that statement. The guy says he could "wish everything out of existence", which doesn't sound like a raw power feat to me so at best that would be Multiverse level range for hax.
Click to expand...
Yes, but currently half of people's EE scales to their AP and the other half doesn't. I even have a list of people who scale their EE to their AP.
StrymULTRA said:
Honestly this should be the last Ben 10 verse God tiers CRT, because, like the Bleach ones, this kind of discussions keep to happen since 2019, and if we don't do something many other circular CRTs will keep coming with no end. I'm talking about CRTs such as:
  1. This (the most important one among these)
  2. This
  3. This
  4. This
  5. This
  6. And this (the 3-A downgrade)
There are obviously more, but this should make y'all understand that the arguments are basically the same for both upgrade and downgrade. My proposal is to make this CRT the last one about Ben 10 verse cosmology and how the God tiers scale to it, then make a discussion rule to prevent other CRTs which don't bring anything new/relevant to the table from coming.
Click to expand...
Hmm perhaps that is not a bad idea. This is how I see the cosmology btw. (don't mind the higher dimensions though, they're not accurate)
StrymULTRA said:
Zeno is a false equivalence as EE = Ki = Stats in Dragon Ball.
Click to expand...
When the EE =/= AP thing first got introduced by Kukui in order to counter Alien X, it was decided that Zen'o did not use EE but instead a ki blast to destroy that timeline. This might have changed by now, but I don't think the reasoning that since he uses ki, that his AP scales to his EE is accepted.
 
Greenshifter said:
When the EE =/= AP thing first got introduced by Kukui in order to counter Alien X, it was decided that Zen'o did not use EE but instead a ki blast to destroy that timeline. This might have changed by now, but I don't think the reasoning that since he uses ki, that his AP scales to his EE is accepted.
Click to expand...
I never claimed that EE =/= AP. I just said that using Zeno is bad as things like Hakai, which are blatantly Ki (unless you forgot Vegeta vs Toppo), have still EE effects, and Zeno's is the same given how Dragon Ball works.

Tho we shouldn't talk about Dragon Ball tho, this ain't the thread.
 
EE can actually scale to AP if supported (like Creation Trio avatars, PMMM God tiers or Lavos). We just should find a way about Alien X's EE being equal to his AP with the context these characters have.
 
Existence Erasure in no way should scale to AP or even get a rating unless it was done a side effect of raw power. Any verse scale Existence Erasure to ap simply "because" shouldn't have a rating for it in my honest opinion.
 
LordGriffin1000 said:
Existence Erasure in no way should scale to AP or even get a rating unless it was done a side effect of raw power. Any verse scale Existence Erasure to ap simply "because" shouldn't have a rating for it in my honest opinion.
Click to expand...
Alternatively, though it's unrelated to this specific CRT, they could have their normal tier and then have "Insert tier with Existence Erasure"
 
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