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Alien x 2-B Upgrade (Yeah Gonna Cry?)

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Yeah I'm gonna put some dirt in @Zamasu_Chan eyes

Anyway here are the points given by the person who started the thread.



Alien X downgrade :/
Hopefully this could be done in a civil manner, but let's begin. Statements Important statements are in bold. August 31, 2008 - X = Ben + 2 Serena: We are one of the most powerful beings in the universe. Bellicus: Because we are the most deliberative. Serena: We're the most powerful being in...
https://vsbattles.com/threads/alien-x-downgrade.110924/




Statements
Important statements are in bold.
  • August 31, 2008 - X = Ben + 2
    • Serena: We are one of the most powerful beings in the universe.
    • Bellicus: Because we are the most deliberative.
    • Serena: We're the most powerful being in the universe. We change the very nature of space and time.
  • October 10, 2010 - Map of Infinity
    • Azmuth: If Aggregor can reassemble the map, he can travel to the forge of creation and gain the greatest power in the universe.
    • Azmuth: He already has. He erected a chronal randomization barrier that hides the forge of creation from everyone except the forge's inhabitants and whoever has the map.
  • November 12, 2010 - The Forge of Creation
    • Azmuth: Trivialities. While you did it about saving mere planets Aggregor obtained the means to travel to the forge of creation and obtain the greatest power in the universe!
    • Azmuth: It could work. Alien X can do anything.
    • Ben: This is bigger than you and me. The whole universe is at stake.
    • Bellicus: And?
    • Gwen: You can start by telling us what the forge of creation is.
    • Paradox: It is the source of the universe's greatest power. It's where ideas become real.
    • Azmuth: The forge of creation is where Celestialsapiens, like Alien X, are born.
    • Paradox: Aggregor intends to absorb the abilities of a newborn Celestialsapien. Should he succeed, he will become omnipotent.
    • Paradox: That's because it's enclosed by a chronal randomization barrier. It is out of sync with all time and, without the map of infinity, totally inaccessible. Unless, of course, you're me. Inside this hidden nebula is the birthplace of a bouncing baby Alien X. And while it is a truly adorable creature.
"Alien X can do anything" "where ideas become real" and "change the very nature of time and space" are all statements talking about AX's ability to reality warp, nothing indicates they mean physically the strongest (especially during this point of the series where multiversal destruction hasn't been explored). In context, hax where you can do basically anything you can imagine > 2-B AP. So the 'Greatest Power in the Universe" is simply a Celestialsapien's ability to warp reality.
for some reason we don’t take Reality Warping into account when it comes to AP, yet that is how a vast majority of characters have high AP, even in this wiki. Alien X used Reality Warping when recreating the Universe, so I guess that should be removed as well. Nothing in here goes against Alien X’s AP whatsoever and all it demonstrates is Vs Battles Wiki along with most of its users being inconsistent at this point anyway nothing prove that those statements were only referring to his Reality warping like really most of the arguments used here are literally headcanon and pure speculation and assumptions.

Crono Navigator
  • January 19, 2013 - Ben Again
    • Professor Paradox: Oh, my apologies. I can see I have you at a disadvantage. Or I will have had you at a disadvantage. Time travel makes verb tenses so confusing. I am professor Paradox, for ironic reasons we needn't go into. Ben, a word. I'm not sure how much time we have, so listen carefully. Eon wants nothing less than absolute power over everything all timelines, all alternate realities everything.
    • Eon: You are a timid fool, Paradox. Just because you never took full advantage of the Chrono Navigator's power doesn't mean I shouldn't.
    • Professor Paradox: Yes, but in anyone else's hands but mine it could cause irreparable damage to the time-stream or destroy all of time and causality itself. In any event, I couldn't possibly give you the Chrono Navigator even if I wished to do so, because I don't have it.
    • Eon: Hmm. No, you don't, do you? You are many things, Paradox, but a liar you are not.Eon: Merely the key to dominion over all space and time. And thanks to you, It is now mine! [ Laughs evilly ] It's amazing. Every time-line, every alternate reality, I can see them all and they're all mine!
    • Gwen Tennyson: The holes in time... They're not closing!Eon: What is this, Time Walker? You tricked me!Professor Paradox: On the contrary, I warned you. Stop this now or all of existence will be destroyed!
    • Eon: No! If I cannot rule the Cosmos then I will be the one to destroy it! Aaah!
The Chrono Navigator is indeed 2-B. However, it's only a special case. Eon wanted to rule all of time and space because he thought he could control all of it. However, he can't control it whatsoever. Paradox literally told him that he wouldn't be able to do so. Not to mention, he starts destroying the multiverse by opening a bunch of holes in time. The feat is also over time and the multiverse is able to restore itself a few seconds after the holes are closed. So, it doesn't scale to the raw strength of the Corn Navigator, it's just environmental destruction. Funnily enough, it's almost exactly like Buuhan opening holes in the universe, the only difference here is that the multiverse is being destroyed and not the universe.
This is taking out a lot of the context of the episode, the whole point was that Eon doesn’t know how to control the Chrono Navigator, which is even demonstrate when he was purposely trying to destroy the Cosmos. Using the holes in time as a way to say it is over time is pretty stupid, considering Eon opened those before he was trying to destroy the Cosmos, and they were used for his troops to come to Ben Prime’s Timeline. After the Chrono Navigator wasn’t working as Eon wanted to, the holes in time all combined as one when he was purposefully trying to destroy the Cosmos therfore nothing implies that the Chrono Navigator 2-B AP is over time this is yet an other headcanon.






Atomic X
Atomic X is high 5-A for two reasons, and they are down right laughable.
The first reason was something along the lines of "there's no proof that Atomic X is as strong as Alien X." That argument relies on a reverse burden of proof. Atomic X is a fusion of Alien X and Atomix, common sense would lead you to think he's at least around the strength of Alien X. Nothing in the series states that fusions get weaker, it doesn't make any sense to assume so. I could easily say that he's not even as strong as Atomic because he only has some of his DNA. Also this. (This WOG is valid because it supports something that was likely in the first place).
The second reason was a bit more understanding but still wrong. It was Maltruant being able to harm Atomic X. This entire fight is a mess when it comes to scaling. Gwen, Kai and even base Ben are putting up a fight against Maltruant. Even if it was regular Atomix, the scene would still make no sense at all because Atomic is high 5-A.
Atomic X should definitely scale to Alien X.
This here is honestly the funniest part of the points made, Atomic-X has been stated multiple times to be weaker than Alien X by an actual credible source of WoG, the WoG the @Zamasu_Chan uses in the downgrade thread was made by an Art Director and he tries to pass that off as being credible. The Art Director isn’t even credible if he was an official source for statements regarding Ben 10. Later on in the thread they dismiss this guy using statements by one of the creators of Ben 10 and say they aren’t credible, these are the statements that I have used in my own answers before and were the ones they were referring to.

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Here is the “reliable” Art Director @Zamasu_Chan who made the downgrade thread used as WoG. He can’t even remember the statements he makes.

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@ProfessorKukui4Life also tries to pass off Atomic-X losing to Maltruant as PIS, we’ve seen that Maltruant is vastly above a regular Chronosapien as he is a mutant one. Ben, Gwen, and Kai weren’t really even doing anything to Maltruant at first, but then Ben was able to actually knock Maltruant around (that is the only PIS in the scene), Gwen using her powers likely could scale to Maltruant and Atomic-X. All this person is doing is using headcanon that Maltruant could never defeat Atomic-X.







Chronosapien Time Bomb
The CTB killed Atomic X. This is a problem for a couple of reasons. Ben 10,000, a ******* super genius, saw the CTB detonate and he thought that his best option was to use Atomic X. Knowing what the CTB is, why would he choose Atomic X if he was only high 5-A, especially when his intention was to straight up overpower the CTB? Goes to show, AX level beings can be killed by a 2-B weapon. Secondly, Ben 10k's failsafe would've turned him into Alien X if he was actually stronger than the CTB, but it didn't, which shows AX is not as strong as the CTB.
This is just the famous logic of people trying to use Atomic-X as proof Alien X isn’t even Multiversal. So first, the OP who made the downgrade used headcanon and an Art Director statement as WoG to make the claim that Atomic-X and Alien X scale to each other while ignoring evidence and ignoring anything and everything . Then uses that as a way to claim Alien X being lower than the Chronosapien Time Bomb, which anyways is a bomb that uses Existence Erasure not even destruction like the Chrono Navigator, which is a point that someone (who is actually biased against Ben 10 from what I’ve seen) made, so all this would prove if people actually entertained this is that Atomic-X and Alien X don't have resistance to Existence Erasure (even though we can Clearly see the Time bomb using raw energy to wipe out people which should also count as AP by the way and Alien x obviously scales above it ) Anyways, Celestialsapiens were already confirmed to be above this device.

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Ben 10k doesn’t have control over Alien X like Ben Prime does, and he uses Atomix’s DNA as a way to get rid of the divided mind Alien X has, which comes at the cost of Alien X’s power. Ben 10k also doesn’t have the failsafe as he doesn’t wear the Omnitrix and doesn’t have control over Alien X. The Biomnitrix was even depowered due to a Solar Flare before, as the Biomnitrix was built for fun and wasn’t built by Azmuth.



Servantis
  • October 17, 2014 - Weapon XI: Part 2
    • Ben used Alien X in Part 1
    • Servantis: With that weapon on his wrist, he can turn into a Tokust'ar or perhaps even a Celestialsapien. This grimy child could one day just wish everything out of existence.
    • Servantis: You think this omnipotent monster is the good guy.?!
    • Kevin: I know it. Ben's the greatest friend I ever had.
It's crazy what we can get away with sometimes. Not only is this statement pretty vague and hyperbolic, but it's in Servantis' character to try to deceive his opponent as much as possible. Using lies and rat tactics are literally what define his character. FFS his entire arc revolves around him giving children and Max Tennyson fake memories. Taking his word as absolute fact is really pushing it.
Yeah I don’t get why this was used for Alien X’s AP, as Existence Erasure is something that ignores durability. Anyways people always try to dismiss Servantis’ statement because he was manipulative, which would make sense if the entire premise of Servantis’ actions wasn’t because he views Ben as a major threat to existence.

Servantis studied many alien species, which included Celestialsapiens as he knew of them, and he knows how dangerous they are if they are in the hands of the wrong person, which he deems Ben as many times. Before Servantis was defeated by Kevin, he says he was almost afraid Ben wasn’t the threat he made him out to be, but he proved him wrong, which was after Alien X showed up and was wiping the floor with the Rooters and Amalgam Kids. After Servantis was defeated by Kevin, he yells at Kevin saying “You think this Omnipotent Monster is the good guy!?”, clearly referring to Alien X as his race and him are the “Omnipotent” beings of the verse.





TLDR
In conclusion, Alien X and Atomic X should be low 2-C. Nothing more nothing less.
The two reasons for his 2-B rating was because of Servantis and statements about being the greatest power. Servantis, is a character who lies his way through everyone, so his statements aren't reliable, and the statements are heavily taken out of context and only refer to Alien X's ability to "do anything" via reality warping.
In conclusion, this downgrade is built on headcanon, out of context things, and misdirection and the over time Chrono Navigator headcanon should be removed and Alien x would go back to his 2-B rating (who should be 2-A by the way but somehow it's accepted as 2-B despite many statements saying otherwise)

All Credits goes for Michael Selph for making this debunk


Agree : @Sus , @TokiNoOuja,@Hasty12345 , @Orioreeem, @Greenshifter,

Disagree : you disagree? Well I missed the part where's that my problem



Neutral :
 
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for some reason we don’t take Reality Warping into account when it comes to AP, yet that is how a vast majority of characters have high AP, even in this wiki
Skimming over, it's not that the OOP is saying that Reality Warping doesn’t relates to AP, is that the reason why the Celestialsapien are referred to as that powerful is because their ability itself to warp reality itself regardless of the scale.
 
Skimming over, it's not that the OOP is saying that Reality Warping doesn’t relates to AP, is that the reason why the Celestialsapien are referred to as that powerful is because their ability itself to warp reality itself regardless of the scale.
Which is still a made up headcanon to begin with it
 
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I agree, i never understood why alien X doesn't scale to the cosmology

where is the high 1A guy he would probably use your arguments for tier 0 alien X
 

My response​

points given by the person who started the thread.



Alien X downgrade :/
Hopefully this could be done in a civil manner, but let's begin. Statements Important statements are in bold. August 31, 2008 - X = Ben + 2 Serena: We are one of the most powerful beings in the universe. Bellicus: Because we are the most deliberative. Serena: We're the most powerful being in...
https://vsbattles.com/threads/alien-x-downgrade.110924/







for some reason we don’t take Reality Warping into account when it comes to AP, yet that is how a vast majority of characters have high AP, even in this wiki. Alien X used Reality Warping when recreating the Universe, so I guess that should be removed as well. Nothing in here goes against Alien X’s AP whatsoever and all it demonstrates is Vs Battles Wiki along with most of its users being inconsistent at this point anyway nothing prove that those statements were only referring to his Reality warping like really most of the arguments used here are literally headcanon and pure speculation and assumptions.
Never said having AP via reality warping was bad.

Anyway, the very first statements are pretty funny yeah. She first says "We are one of the most powerful beings in the universe." then a few seconds later she says "We're the most powerful being in the universe." That statement is inconsistent with itself and are rather contradictory.

Next we have a statement from Azmuth, where he simply says Aggregor will "gain the greatest power in the universe." That's all fine and dandy, but what Paradox says puts these statements into context. He says "It is the source of the universe's greatest power. It's where ideas become real." Here it's verbatim stated that the greatest power is simply turning your thoughts real, which is what basic reality warping is. This is why Alien X is called omnipotent or stated to "do anything", because he can make his thoughts real. That's certainly a more resourceful, versatile, haxy, and greater power to have than simply having the strength to destroy the multiverse.

Point is having the power to do almost anything limited to your imagination > lol big stronk.
This is taking out a lot of the context of the episode, the whole point was that Eon doesn’t know how to control the Chrono Navigator, which is even demonstrate when he was purposely trying to destroy the Cosmos. Using the holes in time as a way to say it is over time is pretty stupid, considering Eon opened those before he was trying to destroy the Cosmos, and they were used for his troops to come to Ben Prime’s Timeline. After the Chrono Navigator wasn’t working as Eon wanted to, the holes in time all combined as one when he was purposefully trying to destroy the Cosmos therfore nothing implies that the Chrono Navigator 2-B AP is over time this is yet an other headcanon.





"Over time" was not something I settled for and thought it was a bad idea but I couldn’t bother fixing it. It should be "2-B with environmental destruction" because it can't put 2-B force within a singular point. As shown here, despite having the Chrono Navigator, Eon's energy attacks only appear to be stronger than usual, and can still be harmed by both Bens.

TLDR, Chrono Navigator should have 2-B DC not AP.
Atomic X shit
Atomic X is high 5-A, this section speaks as if he's currently low 2-C. I've expressed that I don't care what tier he's in so this whole section was rather moot.
Yeah I don’t get why this was used for Alien X’s AP, as Existence Erasure is something that ignores durability. Anyways people always try to dismiss Servantis’ statement because he was manipulative, which would make sense if the entire premise of Servantis’ actions wasn’t because he views Ben as a major threat to existence.

Servantis studied many alien species, which included Celestialsapiens as he knew of them, and he knows how dangerous they are if they are in the hands of the wrong person, which he deems Ben as many times.
Knowing of something isn’t proof that he's studied them. Servantis has many human/alien hybrids of the aliens he's experimented on, but no sign of a celestialsapien hybrid. What we get is this statement: This grimy child could one day just wish everything out of existence. Which is not only a laughable justification for 2-B EE that should be removed, but isn’t evidence that he's captured and experimenting on a celestialsapien.
Before Servantis was defeated by Kevin, he says he was almost afraid Ben wasn’t the threat he made him out to be, but he proved him wrong, which was after Alien X showed up and was wiping the floor with the Rooters and Amalgam Kids.
For reverence this is the statement. If Servantis, for some time, thought Ben wasn’t nearly the threat he made him out to be, then that's just further proof that his "all of existence" statement is a literal hyperpole. And it's not like Ben "proving him right" holds much weight, when the only time Servantis sees Alien X in action, is when he's fighting the Rooters. And yet, there's no 2-B feat in sight during that whole clip. At best you can say that "proving him right" means he's a threat to the universe, due to Servantis knowing about the events of Universe vs Tennyson. Even if I steal-man this argument, at best "all of existence" means the universe in context, as shown here, here, and here.
After Servantis was defeated by Kevin, he yells at Kevin saying “You think this Omnipotent Monster is the good guy!?”, clearly referring to Alien X as his race and him are the “Omnipotent” beings of the verse.
Imagine using "Omnipotence" as an AP justification.

My other proposal​

I was gonna do this some other time but since this thread was made, I might as well.

Alien X's popular feat​

Simply recreating the universe with no spacetime statements is 3-A. Alien X doesn’t even change the spatial background, showing he didn’t recreate spacetime, or even space, but matter. Keep this in mind for the later points.

The Annihilargenesistoriathimiorgost​

Or simply the the Annihilargh, is the strongest evidence for Low 2-C. However there are few problems with this. For one, the timeline was still intact and the way they traveled to the begining using time travel.
Secondly, Maltruant is stuck in a time loop, where he's doomed to fail over and over again. Despite being at the beginning of time, he's still stuck in said time loop. Not to mention, when Ben recreated the universe, he doesn’t break the time loop.

The universe​

It's shown here that the universe is just a collection of matter within a large space. This is supported by this statement, it's stated that the Contumelia go to different to create or destroy universes. Meaning, they're within a space and due to the time loop existing, there's also some form of time as well. Visually the big bang is an explosion. And as stated on the Big Bang page: Creating a supposed Big Bang that would create all the space of a universe or its space and time through a physical explosion is a 3-A feat, and grants Explosion Manipulation, limited Spatial Manipulation and limited Time Manipulation.

Alien X is 3-A bro.
 
Anyway, the very first statements are pretty funny yeah. She first says "We are one of the most powerful beings in the universe." then a few seconds later she says "We're the most powerful being in the universe." That statement is inconsistent with itself and are rather contradictory.
I missed the part where's that my problem


Never said having AP via reality warping was bad.
No it's based on the fact that Celestialsapiens Reality warping scaling to their AP read what I said above


Next we have a statement from Azmuth, where he simply says Aggregor will "gain the greatest power in the universe." That's all fine and dandy, but what Paradox says puts these statements into context. He says "It is the source of the universe's greatest power. It's where ideas become real." Here it's verbatim stated that the greatest power is simply turning your thoughts real, which is what basic reality warping is. This is why Alien X is called omnipotent or stated to "do anything", because he can make his thoughts real. That's certainly a more resourceful, versatile, haxy, and greater power to have than simply having the strength to destroy the multiverse.
Again as stated above


"Over time" was not something I settled for and thought it was a bad idea but I couldn’t bother fixing it. It should be "2-B with environmental destruction" because it can't put 2-B force within a singular point. As shown here, despite having the Chrono Navigator, Eon's energy attacks only appear to be stronger than usual, and can still be harmed by both Bens.

TLDR, Chrono Navigator should have 2-B DC not AP.
Now this is a better argument you should've have said that during the downgrade thread except that still doesn't really matter when Alien x scales above the CTB anyway.


Knowing of something isn’t proof that he's studied them
No reason for why he knows about them but yet for some reason he didn't study them like he did with the other aliens especially when he literally said by himself that Alien x can wipe everything out of existence and literally called him an Omnipotent being proving that not only he knows about Celestialsapiens but he also know about Powers and statue


Servantis has many human/alien hybrids of the aliens he's experimented on, but no sign of a celestialsapien hybrid
Not an argument as stated above


Which is not only a laughable justification for 2-B EE that should be removed, but isn’t evidence that he's captured and experimenting on a celestialsapien.
I'm gonna skip this since Servantis statement not being 2-B EE got rejected to many times to the point where its not even funny so I'm not gonna adresse it.

Simply recreating the universe with no spacetime statements is 3-A. Alien X doesn’t even change the spatial background
This is not something that can be shown


showing he didn’t recreate spacetime,
The fact that Alien x didn't use time reverse the fcat that Ben didn't turn into Clockwork to save the universe, the fact that when Alien x was creating the Universe we can clearly Living beings were standing still without making any kind of reaction which proves that time itself was gone yet an other baseless argument.


the timeline was still intact and the way they traveled to the begining using time travel.
The same place where Maltruant wasn't even able to use his time powers?



It's shown here that the universe is just a collection of matter within a large space.
An other headcanon and assumption


This is supported by this statement, it's stated that the Contumelia go to different to create or destroy universes.
That statement doesn't imply anything that doesn't necessarily means the Universes share the same space that's again yet an other statement that is taken out of context + an other headcanon. The fcat that Vilgax meantioned the existence of parallel timelines already debunk this even further


Visually the big bang is an explosion. And as stated on the Big Bang page: Creating a supposed Big Bang that would create all the space of a universe or its space and time through a physical explosion is a 3-A feat, and grants Explosion Manipulation, limited Spatial Manipulation and limited Time Manipulation
Good doesn't apply to Ben 10 anyway.


Alien X is 3-A bro.
In conclusion just headcanon and speculations as expected the only real proof of universes being 3-A is Maltruant being in a time loop which is pretty vague on its own despite other evidence saying otherwise.
 
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