Pokémon Trainer revisions (RPG Edition)

[CloverDragon03]

Volkner’s explicitly just been keeping up with his training after batting Lucas. It’s the same Electivire and all. However, it proves that levels are just for show, as 8th gym leader Volkner is stated time and again to be E4 level, even down to turning down the invitation to being on it.

In that case, I don't see the "well Volkner could've just gotten stronger" argument coming into play here

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

To further support my point of E4 members being comparable to champions, Caitlyn and Cynthia are rivals.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Gym Leaders do, yeah. But the E4 and up don’t.

Did you actually checked the E4's teams before saying that? If you'll see them you'll notice many if not all of them change their teams when you battle them again

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Did you actually checked the E4's teams before saying that? If you'll see them you'll notice many if not all of them change their teams when you battle them again

Replacing doesn’t mean that the others are on standby. It means they just get new Pokémon that they made part of their new team. All the protags do it. Like it’s not like say, Blue had a much stronger Gyarados on standby to replace his Raticate.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Replacing doesn’t mean that the others are on standby. It means they just get new Pokémon that they made part of their new team. All the protags do it. Like it’s not like say, Blue had a much stronger Gyarados on standby to replace his Raticate.

Do you have proof they just got them recently rather than simply having them in a box and just not being used? Because the player do this all the time and there's no reason to assume other trainers with more than 6 Pokemon wouldn't do the same

 

[Antvasima]

@GyroNutz

Would you be willing to present all of the relevant parts of your arguments here in a single post please? I can call for other staff members afterwards so we make certain that we do not end up with an unreliable Marvel Comics-style chain scaling situation here.

So about this...

 

[GyroNutz]

I'll respond to everything else but for now, I will just call out the massive double standard of this statement.
Optional battle
Optional battle
Optional battle
Optional battle
Optional battle
Optional battle
I could go on to the point of this being unreadable but I've made my point.

As far as I know, those are superbosses. Their only showings are their "optional battles". Not like I should have to explain why battles from other games are different cases to Pokemon anyway. What I'm saying is that these optional trainer rematches are not the same as a roadblock for the player to overcome. Not that this matters since this is more like a strawman that doesn't answer my main point.

To further support my point of E4 members being comparable to champions, Caitlyn and Cynthia are rivals.

Like in the anime? It's clear that Cynthia acts more like a mentor there. Hell, Lucian even states explicitly that Cynthia is far stronger than himself, and he's the strongest of the Sinnoh Elite Four.

@GyroNutz

Would you be willing to present all of the relevant parts of your arguments here in a single post please? I can call for other staff members afterwards so we make certain that we do not end up with an unreliable Marvel Comics-style chain scaling situation here.

The main point of my argument is that the respective champions of each generation are treated as the strongest in their region, with a couple of minor exceptions like Red and N. On the other hand, there's nothing to suggest that the Frontier Brains are revered for their power like the champions are. Instead, the battle facilities are based on skill, rather than power, due to the rules imposed. As such, trainers that you battle in these facilities should not be considered to scale to the Player based on these battles alone. All of the statements that I have brought up prove this point.

I feel like this summarises it pretty well.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

As far as I know, those are superbosses. Their only showings are their "optional battles". Not like I should have to explain why battles from other games are different cases to Pokemon anyway. What I'm saying is that these optional trainer rematches are not the same as a roadblock for the player to overcome. Not that this matters since this is more like a strawman that doesn't answer my main point.

Super bosses, optional battles, it’s the same deal. It’s far from a strawman, you’re indeed claiming that it being optional means it’s not canon.

Like in the anime? It's clear that Cynthia acts more like a mentor there. Hell, Lucian even states explicitly that Cynthia is far stronger than himself, and he's the strongest of the Sinnoh Elite Four.

No, in the games. They’ve fought many times, and while Cynthia has won every time, Caitlin didn’t imply it’s a stomp.

Again, burden of proof is on you to prove that HGSS Blue is stronger than Lance. Lance's statement, Blue's role and the in-game levels all show that Lance is stronger.

This one’s easy. Blue outright beat Lance when he was 11. Only reason Blue’s not champ is because he gave it up and decided to run Viridian Gym instead. Therefore Lance stepped up. In game level’s support my point in the fact that Lance only barely outlevels Blue with his rematch team, something he doesn’t even have in the original GSC (which throws your “16 badges and then they show their true power” out the window, alongside the fact that the other champs have no such clause and it’s never mentioned anywhere). During their first battles with Ethan, Lance is severely out leveled by Blue.

Cyrus' computer shows that the likes of Palkia and Dialga can be prevented from using their full power with Poke Balls alone.

Something as I said before, he was wrong about. Heck, PLA isn’t even needed for this. Lucas’s team keeps up and surpasses Red Chained versions of them who are then kept up with in their Pokeballs, and in BDSP, Pokeball Giratina matches his lvl 100 shadow self.

And do you seriously think that GameFreak acknowledge the whole "factors of infinity" thing like we do on the site?

Doesn’t matter whether they do or don’t. Also you kinda still have to prove it’s not game mechanics, my dude.

Btw PMD is accepted as canon and Doom seeds aren't even the most notable example - there are entire areas where Pokemon are weakened to a specific level, which is canonically mentioned by one of Team A.W.D.

PMD is considered an alternate universe. Like an Elseworlds story. Our profiles are just very composite.

First point is irrelevant (and probably untrue). For the second, Buck's statement aside, his battle is optional. Treating these battleground fights as canonical challenges would be the same as saying that every single Gym Leader, even Roark, has suddenly surpassed Cynthia. Which wouldn't make sense as Cynthia has been unbeaten for probably decades.

Bro did you forget that Cynthia got absurdly stronger too? Sure Roark hit lvl 60 but Cynthia’s pushing 80s.

Lance is the champion of Kanto and Johto, he and the elite four only use their strongest teams when the player has all 16 badges.

Everything after Johto is untrue.

Also Lance has at least 3 different Dragonites, how do you know that one is his ace?

Why would Lance bring anything less than his ace to stop global terrorists? Also Masters heavily implies it’s the same Dragonite (the one that helps him stop Team Rocket).

Flint and Volkner can put up a fight against the player without being Champion level themselves.

If they put up a fight that just means E4 is around champion level. Like obviously Cynthia would beat them both, but they’d still pose a challenge. They’d just never get her down to a single Pokémon.

And just like Lance, each elite four member is far stronger than the Kanto gym leaders once you actually have all 16 badges.

Idk if you’re referring to GSC here but I’m going to assume you are. Read above. And even then, again, barely. Sabrina’s Alakazam is a mere two levels weaker than Will’s Xatu.

The main point of my argument is that the respective champions of each generation are treated as the strongest in their region, with a couple of minor exceptions like Red and N. On the other hand, there's nothing to suggest that the Frontier Brains are revered for their power like the champions are. Instead, the battle facilities are based on skill, rather than power, due to the rules imposed. As such, trainers that you battle in these facilities should not be considered to scale to the Player based on these battles alone. All of the statement that I have brought up prove this point.

Dude the Frontier is like outright the hard mode. For the games, people are outright telling you to use good Pokémon and not just Pokémon you like. While the E4 is telling you the opposite (see: Karen). Not to mention you haven’t brought up statements on the Frontier itself. Just headcanon. Heck if anything I brought statements proving my point, with the flavor text and Flint and Volkner’s gatekeeping. As well as Anabel finding your defeat of Steven to be unimpressive, and she backs up her claim when even her amnesiac cop self keeps up with the stronger Elio.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Ah yes, game mechanics and non-canon. Love to see these classic arguments against verses being powerful being applied only to Pokemon on this site.

 

[Sniper670]

CT must have a varies tier. Then we can all be happy.

No way in hell everyone and their mom scale to tier 2

 

[CloverDragon03]

CT must have a varies tier. Then we can all be happy.

No way in hell everyone and their mom scale to tier 2

What's your argument for this besides "there's no way that's possible"

 

[Sniper670]

What's your argument for this besides "there's no way that's possible"

The arguements are already up there tho. Game mechanics yada yada

 

[Sniper670]

Plus it seems GF don't really gaf about power scaling, 90 percent of the time anyway. So I'll just stay back and see how this goes

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Look the Frontier Brains aren’t important enough to argue about. We took up a whole page on it. Let’s just move past that.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

GyroNutz didn't respond and Yemma670 is saying shit without reading the replies like always, so I think its fine to make the changes

 

[Sniper670]

GyroNutz didn't respond and Yemma670 is saying shit without reading the replies like always, so I think its fine to make the changes

Hmmph...

 

[Antvasima]

The main point of my argument is that the respective champions of each generation are treated as the strongest in their region, with a couple of minor exceptions like Red and N. On the other hand, there's nothing to suggest that the Frontier Brains are revered for their power like the champions are. Instead, the battle facilities are based on skill, rather than power, due to the rules imposed. As such, trainers that you battle in these facilities should not be considered to scale to the Player based on these battles alone. All of the statement that I have brought up prove this point.

@Starter_Pack @SamanPatou @Elizhaa @Colonel_Krukov @SomebodyData @Firestorm808 @QuasiYuri

Would you be willing to help out here please?

 

[GyroNutz]

Super bosses, optional battles, it’s the same deal. It’s far from a strawman, you’re indeed claiming that it being optional means it’s not canon.

Of course it's a strawman, you completely twisted my point and instead sent a bunch of non-Pokemon profiles. Just because a non-roadblock trainer can be battled by post-game G4 protag does not mean they are a challenge to them or should scale.

No, in the games. They’ve fought many times, and while Cynthia has won every time, Caitlin didn’t imply it’s a stomp.

"No matter how hard I try, I cannot defeat Cynthia. Before, I would have exploded with rage. Now, I have the tranquility to reflect on my performance to see how I can improve."

This statement is what you're using to scale Caitlin to Cynthia? Again, just because someone can battle another trainer does not mean they are comparable.

This one’s easy. Blue outright beat Lance when he was 11. Only reason Blue’s not champ is because he gave it up and decided to run Viridian Gym instead. Therefore Lance stepped up. In game level’s support my point in the fact that Lance only barely outlevels Blue with his rematch team, something he doesn’t even have in the original GSC (which throws your “16 badges and then they show their true power” out the window, alongside the fact that the other champs have no such clause and it’s never mentioned anywhere). During their first battles with Ethan, Lance is severely out leveled by Blue.

I've already acknowledged that - to use your own argument against you, Lance simply got stronger. Plus Blue's entire goal was to be champion and he still clearly has a desire to face strong trainers during HGSS, but after getting beat by Red he wasn't able to reclaim the title. "Barely outlevels" is completely subjective. HGSS retconned GSC in that aspect, and all I'm saying is what the games themselves show. Not sure why other games are relevant here when those other games' league only spans one region instead of two. Lance is indeed the most powerful trainer, aside from Red.

Doesn’t matter whether they do or don’t. Also you kinda still have to prove it’s not game mechanics, my dude.

Yeah, it does, you're using the whole "factors of infinity" thing as an argument to make it seem like it's ridiculous for battle facilities to enforce the rules they consistently go on about. Which btw, makes no sense since you're also arguing that fodder like Roark can get factors of infinity stronger just by doing some training. To put this simply, the battle facilities enforce rules so that all Pokemon are on an even playing field, making strength a non-factor. The most you can say is that notable trainers that fight the player here are above Champion level in skill. And if you want proof, check out the battle rules for the Battle Institute.

PMD is considered an alternate universe. Like an Elseworlds story. Our profiles are just very composite.

Every game is an alternate universe and composite stuff isn't allowed. It's been like that for several years now. Iirc there's a blog on the main page which details what is considered canon and what isn't - if you'd like to refute that then make a separate CRT.

Bro did you forget that Cynthia got absurdly stronger too? Sure Roark hit lvl 60 but Cynthia’s pushing 80s.

Irrelevant.

Everything after Johto is untrue.

Replay the games then

Why would Lance bring anything less than his ace to stop global terrorists? Also Masters heavily implies it’s the same Dragonite (the one that helps him stop Team Rocket).

Masters is dubiously canon to start with, and I'd still want to see some proof in case it is. Either way, you know Team Rocket's a complete joke, right? If Lance really needed his strongest Pokemon to deal with them, he would have also contacted other elite trainers (or at the very least, Pryce) for backup. And if you still aren't convinced, then consider that Lance brought this single Dragonite to the hideout instead of a full team.

If they put up a fight that just means E4 is around champion level. Like obviously Cynthia would beat them both, but they’d still pose a challenge. They’d just never get her down to a single Pokémon.

They're explicitly stated to be very much weaker than Cynthia. And if they'd never be able to beat Cynthia then they clearly aren't around her level.

Idk if you’re referring to GSC here but I’m going to assume you are. Read above. And even then, again, barely. Sabrina’s Alakazam is a mere two levels weaker than Will’s Xatu.

Uh, no, having all 16 badges means nothing in terms of the elite four for GSC. I'm referring to HGSS.

Dude the Frontier is like outright the hard mode.

What?

For the games, people are outright telling you to use good Pokémon and not just Pokémon you like. While the E4 is telling you the opposite (see: Karen).

For the former, what statements specifically? For the latter, that's misinterpreting Karen's statement. She's saying that you shouldn't choose which Pokemon to battle with based on whether they're strong or weak, but how much you like them. Nothing about whether this would make it easier or not.

Not to mention you haven’t brought up statements on the Frontier itself. Just headcanon. Heck if anything I brought statements proving my point, with the flavor text and Flint and Volkner’s gatekeeping. As well as Anabel finding your defeat of Steven to be unimpressive, and she backs up her claim when even her amnesiac cop self keeps up with the stronger Elio.

Headcanon!? In EVERY generation, the champion is explicitly stated to be the most powerful trainer there is. That's the entire role of the champion and the end goal of any Pokemon game - to beat the best and become the best there ever was, and the multitude of IN-GAME statement I showed only prove this. The only exceptions are trainers that would have been champions themselves (N, Red, Mustard) but decided not to be. Also, Flint + Volkner were gatekeeping Barry, it'd make no sense for them to think that the Player was too weak or something (which again, is a non-factor, but for the sake of argument...) considering that the Player not only beat both of them individually but then beat both Lucian and Cynthia who are explicitly stated to be stronger. Anabel's statement is vague, and after you beat her she praises you for your skill, not your power, which if anything fits with what I've been arguing this entire time. Also what does Elio/Selene have to do with Steven?

Ah yes, game mechanics and non-canon. Love to see these classic arguments against verses being powerful being applied only to Pokemon on this site.

I'd appreciate if you responded to my actual arguments instead of strawmanning me - my arguments are based on actual in-game statements and the entire purpose of these battle facilities. Don't know how this got so many likes...

 

[GyroNutz]

Look the Frontier Brains aren’t important enough to argue about. We took up a whole page on it. Let’s just move past that.

No, the battle facilities have explicit rules in place to make battles have an even playing field. It's ridiculous to use these for scaling, especially when considering the sheer gap in power that's being proposed.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Masters is dubiously canon to start with, and I'd still want to see some proof in case it is. Either way, you know Team Rocket's a complete joke, right? If Lance really needed his strongest Pokemon to deal with them, he would have also contacted other elite trainers (or at the very least, Pryce) for backup. And if you still aren't convinced, then consider that Lance brought this single Dragonite to the hideout instead of a full team.

I posted evidence of Masters being stated to be canon, and they even showed clips from Sword and Shield in flashbacks

 

[GyroNutz]

I posted evidence of Masters being stated to be canon, and they even showed clips from Sword and Shield in flashbacks

Ok, where's the stuff about Lance using his ace against team rocket?

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I posted evidence of Masters being stated to be canon, and they even showed clips from Sword and Shield in flashbacks

The games are canon to Masters, but so far we have yet to see evidence of the opposite being true (which would be games be canon to Masters). The fact that Sword and Shield, games that came after Masters, made no scenes referring to Pasio or to any of the events there says a lot about canonicity

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Ok, where's the stuff about Lance using his ace against team rocket?

What are you talking about

The games are canon to Masters, but so far we have yet to see evidence of the opposite being true (which would be games be canon to Masters). The fact that Sword and Shield, games that came after Masters, made no scenes referring to Pasio or to any of the events there says a lot about canonicity

You do realise Masters takes place after Sword and Shield, right? What kind of question is this? How are they gonna reference stuff that's in the future? Also, why would it be a one way canon? Thats headcanon

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

You do realise Masters takes place after Sword and Shield, right? What kind of question is this? How are they gonna reference stuff that's in the future? Also, why would it be a one way canon? Thats headcanon

Only the parts after Leon comes takes place after Sword and Shield. Leon came in 2021, along with the other Galar units. Before then, there were many plots in Pokemon Masters that existed long before Leon and the rest came, and these were never referrenced in Sword and Shield

 

[Antvasima]

Gyro seems to make sense to me above, but I would still appreciate input from a few of the following members.

@Starter_Pack @SamanPatou @Elizhaa @Colonel_Krukov @SomebodyData @Firestorm808 @QuasiYuri

 

[Colonel_Krukov]

Aside from watching a seasons of the anime, my Pokemon knowledge is non-existent so I can't really help out here unfortunately.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Not touching anything trainer related, it's too annoying.

Disagree with XXKINGXX69 stuff tho

​

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. We really need some help here in order to not accidentally completely mess up our scaling.

I would appreciate if you read Gyro's posts at least.

 

[GyroNutz]

What are you talking about

Cal's post that I quoted above

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

No, the battle facilities have explicit rules in place to make battles have an even playing field. It's ridiculous to use these for scaling, especially when considering the sheer gap in power that's being proposed.

Look I was outright willing to concede, hence my “let’s move past that”, but if you wanna go ahead then let’s go ahead…
No hard feelings ofc.

Of course it's a strawman, you completely twisted my point and instead sent a bunch of non-Pokemon profiles. Just because a non-roadblock trainer can be battled by post-game G4 protag does not mean they are a challenge to them or should scale.

That is literally not how scaling works on this site though. Literally every other game you scale people to the dudes they fight if they fight them at parts where they’d be at certain strength. That’s what optional battles are.

"No matter how hard I try, I cannot defeat Cynthia. Before, I would have exploded with rage. Now, I have the tranquility to reflect on my performance to see how I can improve."

This statement is what you're using to scale Caitlin to Cynthia? Again, just because someone can battle another trainer does not mean they are comparable.

If you’re not being ohko’d, you scale to the person you’re fighting. Which is why I’m adamant on the E4 scaling to the champs.

I've already acknowledged that - to use your own argument against you, Lance simply got stronger. Plus Blue's entire goal was to be champion and he still clearly has a desire to face strong trainers during HGSS, but after getting beat by Red he wasn't able to reclaim the title. "Barely outlevels" is completely subjective. HGSS retconned GSC in that aspect, and all I'm saying is what the games themselves show. Not sure why other games are relevant here when those other games' league only spans one region instead of two. Lance is indeed the most powerful trainer, aside from Red.

Blue didn’t reclaim the title because he didn’t want to reclaim the title. He was humbled after he lost to Red and somebody had to run Viridian. Heck, he outright knows Ethan beat Lance and it doesn’t phase him. Next, HGSS didn’t retcon GSC either. They’re separate universes. You say so yourself alter on during this rebut. And other games matter because every League after Ruby and Sapphire has rematch teams. It doesn’t matter if only HGSS has 16 badges. You’d have to make the argument that they’re all holding back their true teams until the rematch, in which it makes absolutely zero sense for Blue of all people to be holding back against Red, or the Unova E4 to hold back against Hilbert.

Yeah, it does, you're using the whole "factors of infinity" thing as an argument to make it seem like it's ridiculous for battle facilities to enforce the rules they consistently go on about. Which btw, makes no sense since you're also arguing that fodder like Roark can get factors of infinity stronger just by doing some training.

Welcome to JRPGs, where you go from fighting rats to killing gods through training. Heck that ain’t even a JRPG specific thing. Remember Mr. Park Ranger? For Pete’s sake, that’s literally what the protags are doing. Going from fodder to infinitely stronger through some training. Also funny you should use Roark when he specifically and outright challenges you after you become champion telling you to battle him back at his gym.

To put this simply, the battle facilities enforce rules so that all Pokemon are on an even playing field, making strength a non-factor. The most you can say is that notable trainers that fight the player here are above Champion level in skill. And if you want proof, check out the battle rules for the Battle Institute.

And yet Malva in the chateau has Pokémon even stronger than her E4 battle at 65 for the writ of challenge. But they all get reduced to 50, hm?

Every game is an alternate universe and composite stuff isn't allowed. It's been like that for several years now. Iirc there's a blog on the main page which details what is considered canon and what isn't - if you'd like to refute that then make a separate CRT.

Pretty sure I inspired that blog…

Irrelevant.

It’s very relevant. You’re claiming that I’m claiming that after training they match Cynthia when she’s been on her grind too. Power creep is a thing.

Masters is dubiously canon to start with, and I'd still want to see some proof in case it is. Either way, you know Team Rocket's a complete joke, right? If Lance really needed his strongest Pokemon to deal with them, he would have also contacted other elite trainers (or at the very least, Pryce) for backup. And if you still aren't convinced, then consider that Lance brought this single Dragonite to the hideout instead of a full team.

Yes, the team that had Elm all but crapping himself, successfully took over an entire city, was broadcasting themselves nationwide, and got the champion himself to investigate is a joke. Also who’s to say he didn’t have his other Pokémon on him? Only one is allowed out at a time. Also here’s your Lance quotes with his Dragonite, under the “A day with Lance”. Masters events are dubiously canon but the dialogue/interactions are based in canon.

They're explicitly stated to be very much weaker than Cynthia. And if they'd never be able to beat Cynthia then they clearly aren't around her level.

By Lucian, not themselves. And once again, those statements are likely for hype. Otherwise, again, Volkner <<< Bertha < Flint = Volkner. They’re stronger. Obviously. But not much stronger.

Uh, no, having all 16 badges means nothing in terms of the elite four for GSC. I'm referring to HGSS.

You know what I meant.

What?

Idk what’s confusing. The battle frontier is actually supposed to be hard, unlike the base game.

For the former, what statements specifically? For the latter, that's misinterpreting Karen's statement. She's saying that you shouldn't choose which Pokemon to battle with based on whether they're strong or weak, but how much you like them. Nothing about whether this would make it easier or not.

About the Karen statement, you’re right. And (I’ll admit, currently going off of hearsay) there’s NPCs in the Battle Tower/Frontier that pretty much tell you to screw that, you won’t win if you follow that philosophy.

Headcanon!? In EVERY generation, the champion is explicitly stated to be the most powerful trainer there is. That's the entire role of the champion and the end goal of any Pokemon game - to beat the best and become the best there ever was, and the multitude of IN-GAME statement I showed only prove this. The only exceptions are trainers that would have been champions themselves (N, Red, Mustard) but decided not to be.

Yes. You’re right. The whole goal of the game is to be the very best trainer and beat the champion. Which is why these trainers are postgame content. Also Benga is > champ level too. Same with Giovanni by the time of G2 thanks to the Celebi event.

Also, Flint + Volkner were gatekeeping Barry, it'd make no sense for them to think that the Player was too weak or something (which again, is a non-factor, but for the sake of argument...) considering that the Player not only beat both of them individually but then beat both Lucian and Cynthia who are explicitly stated to be stronger.
Anabel's statement is vague, and after you beat her she praises you for your skill, not your power, which if anything fits with what I've been arguing this entire time.

This part is untrue. Anabel’s statements aren’t vague at all.
"Greetings... My name is Anabel. I am the Salon Maiden, and I am in charge of running the Battle Tower... I have heard several rumors about you... In all honesty, what I have heard does not seem attractive in any way... The reason I've come to see you... Well, there is but one reason... Let me see your talent in its entirety..."
She tells you that she’s heard of your accomplishments and And when you fight her the second time, she says she doesn’t have to hold back. Can’t do that if they’re all equal levels. And that’s not even talking about Alola, where she’s referred to as a powerful trainer, not a skilled trainer, like your semantics keep on implying.

Also what does Elio/Selene have to do with Steven?

Because they’re stronger than him. Elio and Selene fight an adult Red.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Only the parts after Leon comes takes place after Sword and Shield. Leon came in 2021, along with the other Galar units. Before then, there were many plots in Pokemon Masters that existed long before Leon and the rest came, and these were never referrenced in Sword and Shield

No, there was no timeskip when leon came or anything, and how is Sword and Shield supposed to reference Masters when it doesn't even take place in Pasio? Even so, how does this make it non canon?

 

[QuasiYuri]

No, there was no timeskip when leon came or anything, and how is Sword and Shield supposed to reference Masters when it doesn't even take place in Pasio? Even so, how does this make it non canon?

You have to prove its canonicity to the other stuff via the main games and suchlike.

Besides, it's not the thread's subject so you're just wasting time here.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

and how is Sword and Shield supposed to reference Masters when it doesn't even take place in Pasio?

Because the character interactions and them knowing characters from other regions can still happen in Kalos, such as for example, Nessa knowing Elesa, or Bea knowing Korrina. Stuff that was shown between Galar characters to people from other regions in Masters was never mentioned in Sword and Shield

 

[XXKINGXX69]

You have to prove its canonicity to the other stuff via the main games and suchlike.

Besides, it's not the thread's subject so you're just wasting time here.

I just did

Because the character interactions and them knowing characters from other regions can still happen in Kalos, such as for example, Nessa knowing Elesa, or Bea knowing Korrina. Stuff that was shown between Galar characters to people from other regions in Masters was never mentioned in Sword and Shield

Why does it not being mentioned mean its not canon?

 

[QuasiYuri]

I just did

Did not. You went the exact opposite.

 

[Antvasima]

Gyro seems to make sense to me above, but I would still appreciate input from a few of the following members.

@Starter_Pack @SamanPatou @Elizhaa @Colonel_Krukov @SomebodyData @Firestorm808 @QuasiYuri

We really need some help here in order to not accidentally completely mess up our scaling.

I would appreciate if you read Gyro's posts at least.

@Starter_Pack @SamanPatou @Elizhaa @SomebodyData @Firestorm808

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Why does it not being mentioned mean its not canon?

Because it means that interactions between characters that existed in Masters were not mentioned in Sword and Shield, thus making Masters not canon to Sword and Shield

 

[Sniper670]

Because it means that interactions between characters that existed in Masters were not mentioned in Sword and Shield, thus making Masters not canon to Sword and Shield

He's not going to listen to you

This discussion has been going around in circles. We're going nowhere at all

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Yeah we're going nowhere, I suggest we talk about a few regions at a time

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Look we can drop the frontier brain stuff (like I wanted to). I’ll humbly concede (even though I wasn’t convinced) so long as I can get the rest to go through. This is purely for changing public opinion.