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Pokémon Trainer revisions (RPG Edition)

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Some time ago I decided to not participate in Pokemon CRTs anymore, the way the franchise is currently handeld just clashes with my personal interpretation of how it should be done, so I'm unable to give honest opinions on the things that are proposed from time to time.
 
Well, if I have understood correctly, what is currently suggested might make the verse even more unreliable by scaling the Pokemon trainers' personal statistics to the God-tier Pokemon.
 
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Is this necessary? These trainers thing is going to mess up with the already shaky scaling. Better to leave them as they are. But that's just me
 
Yemma670 said:
Is this necessary? These trainers thing is going to mess up with the already shaky scaling. Better to leave them as they are. But that's just me
Click to expand...
yeah man im applying the low 7-B/7-B upgrades and shiz and getting tf outta this side of versus scaling
 
Antvasima said:
Well, if I have understood correctly, what is currently suggested might make the verse even more unreliable by scaling the Pokemon trainers' personal statistics to the God-tier Pokemon.
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What it’s doing is treating Pokémon like literally every other game in its genre and not singling it out as some weird outlier.
 
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The_real_cal_howard said:
That is literally not how scaling works on this site though. Literally every other game you scale people to the dudes they fight if they fight them at parts where they’d be at certain strength. That’s what optional battles are.
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Name one site rule that says we should scale optional battles. It makes zero sense for all of these trainers, who previously weren't close to champion level by their own admission, to suddenly become far above it. We should only scale people to other people if they prove to be a challenge, and this is not solid enough scaling for such a huge gap.

The_real_cal_howard said:
If you’re not being ohko’d, you scale to the person you’re fighting. Which is why I’m adamant on the E4 scaling to the champs.
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Backscaling, by a wide margin, but sure. Still doesn't mean they're comparable.

The_real_cal_howard said:
Blue didn’t reclaim the title because he didn’t want to reclaim the title. He was humbled after he lost to Red and somebody had to run Viridian. Heck, he outright knows Ethan beat Lance and it doesn’t phase him.
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He didn't reclaim it because he couldn't. There was no reason for Blue to do a complete 360 of his previous goals and settle down in Viridian when being the champion is clearly something he was proud of (see Sun & Moon). Also, note how Blue only talks about how the player beat the Kanto and Johto gyms but not the Elite Four or Champion. Insane coincidence, or they just weren't at their full strength?

The_real_cal_howard said:
Next, HGSS didn’t retcon GSC either. They’re separate universes. You say so yourself alter on during this rebut. And other games matter because every League after Ruby and Sapphire has rematch teams. It doesn’t matter if only HGSS has 16 badges. You’d have to make the argument that they’re all holding back their true teams until the rematch, in which it makes absolutely zero sense for Blue of all people to be holding back against Red, or the Unova E4 to hold back against Hilbert.
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Yes, but chronologically GameFreak will still change stuff from later installments for the previous ones to make more sense. For instance, Red's Espeon is never seen again and is replaced by Lapras. And no, other games don't matter as they're different in context. The reason why HGSS' elite four has a rematch team is because they're taking on a challenger who completed both league challenges. And it's not like this is exclusive to the elite four either, Lance is seen battling with this team in the Dragon's Den.

The_real_cal_howard said:
Welcome to JRPGs, where you go from fighting rats to killing gods through training. Heck that ain’t even a JRPG specific thing. Remember Mr. Park Ranger? For Pete’s sake, that’s literally what the protags are doing. Going from fodder to infinitely stronger through some training. Also funny you should use Roark when he specifically and outright challenges you after you become champion telling you to battle him back at his gym.
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You and I both know that's a completely separate thing when it comes to game protagonists. I use Roark as an example because he explicitly states that every other gym leader is far stronger than he is. He's bottom of the barrel but suddenly he can become above champion level when Cynthia had been unchallenged for decades? That's ridiculous in premise and based only on a completely optional, friendly battle that you may as well just sweep through.

The_real_cal_howard said:
And yet Malva in the chateau has Pokémon even stronger than her E4 battle at 65 for the writ of challenge. But they all get reduced to 50, hm?
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Battle institute, not chateau. The chateau works differently, and her base level is like 55 anyway, not 65.

The_real_cal_howard said:
It’s very relevant. You’re claiming that I’m claiming that after training they match Cynthia when she’s been on her grind too. Power creep is a thing.
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It's not. I'm referring to Cynthia's power level when you challenge her in the main story, not what happens after.

The_real_cal_howard said:
Yes, the team that had Elm all but crapping himself, successfully took over an entire city, was broadcasting themselves nationwide, and got the champion himself to investigate is a joke.
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The same team that you infiltrate by playing dress up? That doesn't end up actually harm anyone and that you can just sweep through? That no other gym leader or elite four member tries to intervene with, even the ones in the affected cities? Yeah, a joke.

The_real_cal_howard said:
Also who’s to say he didn’t have his other Pokémon on him? Only one is allowed out at a time. Also here’s your Lance quotes with his Dragonite, under the “A day with Lance”. Masters events are dubiously canon but the dialogue/interactions are based in canon.
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You can literally prove this for yourself, try ko'ing Lance's Dragonite and you'll see he has no other Pokemon to send out. Also there's literally no mention of team rocket in those quotes, it proves nothing.

The_real_cal_howard said:
By Lucian, not themselves. And once again, those statements are likely for hype. Otherwise, again, Volkner <<< Bertha < Flint = Volkner. They’re stronger. Obviously. But not much stronger.
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Lucian is the strongest member of the Elite Four, he states as much himself. And there's really no basis for this being just "for hype", these are credible statements which are backed by the narrative of the game, not some promotional material.

The_real_cal_howard said:
Idk what’s confusing. The battle frontier is actually supposed to be hard, unlike the base game.
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Difficulty is subjective, but also irrelevant. The Zero Isles/Purity Forest in Pokemon Mystery Dungeon are harder than most of the game but they contain very low level and weak Pokemon. The fact that they're hard simply means they test your skill, not your power, which goes with what I've been arguing.

The_real_cal_howard said:
Yes. You’re right. The whole goal of the game is to be the very best trainer and beat the champion. Which is why these trainers are postgame content. Also Benga is > champ level too. Same with Giovanni by the time of G2 thanks to the Celebi event.
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Yeah, the very best, not the very best... except for this guy and all of these guys. Battle facilities trainers can be postgame and still be weaker than the Champion, as the plot suggests, via the rules of the battle facilities. As for the other two, Benga only conquers the White Treehollow/Black Tower after you become Champion, so it's likely that he only becomes stronger than Iris after her fight. But sure. Giovanni's a no-go though, his team is weaker than Lance's in terms of levels and is a prime example of why being a notable trainer who battles you doesn't mean one is comparable (also pretty sure the event is G4).

The_real_cal_howard said:
This part is untrue. Anabel’s statements aren’t vague at all.
"Greetings... My name is Anabel. I am the Salon Maiden, and I am in charge of running the Battle Tower... I have heard several rumors about you... In all honesty, what I have heard does not seem attractive in any way... The reason I've come to see you... Well, there is but one reason... Let me see your talent in its entirety..."
Click to expand...
She says she's heard "rumors" and doesn't indicate what these rumors are at all. Doesn't get much more vague than that.

The_real_cal_howard said:
And when you fight her the second time, she says she doesn’t have to hold back. Can’t do that if they’re all equal levels. And that’s not even talking about Alola, where she’s referred to as a powerful trainer, not a skilled trainer, like your semantics keep on implying.
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Yeah you can hold back while using the same Pokemon, let alone same levels. You just don't try as hard. I'm not denying she's powerful, I'm saying she's not necessarily as powerful as Steven. Also again timeskip means that Anabel could have simply gotten stronger.

The_real_cal_howard said:
Look we can drop the frontier brain stuff (like I wanted to). I’ll humbly concede (even though I wasn’t convinced) so long as I can get the rest to go through. This is purely for changing public opinion.
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I don't mind the rest of this really, some cases are more blatant than others (see: B2W2 and USUM) but generally this seems fine. But I do want to stress that these upgrades are very big and we should be conservative when selecting who these would apply to.
 
GyroNutz said:
Name one site rule that says we should scale optional battles. It makes zero sense for all of these trainers, who previously weren't close to champion level by their own admission, to suddenly become far above it. We should only scale people to other people if they prove to be a challenge, and this is not solid enough scaling for such a huge gap.
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Name 1 site rule that says we don't use optional battles? And you do realise "champion level" is completely arbitrary right? It is very possible for certain trainers to just grow immensely stronger in a short period of time
 
XXKINGXX69 said:
Name 1 site rule that says we don't use optional battles?
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You're asking me to prove a negative?

XXKINGXX69 said:
And you do realise "champion level" is completely arbitrary right? It is very possible for certain trainers to just grow immensely stronger in a short period of time
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Yeah, I'm sure that the countless statements that I showed about the Champions being the strongest trainer in their respective regions, and one of the key parts of the plot in every game, are all "completely arbitrary". Trainers can get stronger in a short span of time, but they're the exception, not the rule, and when they do it's very much in line with the plot and not some friendly optional fight.

Adem_Warlock69 said:
Without using the Anime or Masters:
  • Champion Blue, Elite4 Lance and Alder stay at 6-C
  • Gen2 Elite4, Champion Lance, and Gen2 Blue become 6-B
  • Piers, Raihan, Chairman Rose, Leon, Hop, Peony, Champion tournament Trainers become High 6-A
  • Gen 3 Elite4, Wally, Wallace and Steven become High 6-A or 5-B with ORAS
  • Zinnia, B/W N, Ghetsis and Cheren, B2/W2 Elite4, Champion Iris, Colress, Benga, Lysandre, AZ, Gen6 Elite4, Diantha, Alola Elite Four, Title Defense Trainers become "At least 3-C, possibly High 3-A"
  • Barry, Gen 4 Elite4, Volkner, Cynthia become "At least 2-B, likely 2-A"
Click to expand...
@Antvasima I think this is the consensus now? Only gen 2 red and gold are 5-B via Mewtwo scaling, and gen 7 red and blue are 3-C, possibly High 3-A via Elio/Selene scaling.
 
GyroNutz said:
You're asking me to prove a negative?


Yeah, I'm sure that the countless statements that I showed about the Champions being the strongest trainer in their respective regions, and one of the key parts of the plot in every game, are all "completely arbitrary". Trainers can get stronger in a short span of time, but they're the exception, not the rule, and when they do it's very much in line with the plot and not some friendly optional fight.


@Antvasima I think this is the consensus now? Only gen 2 red and gold are 5-B via Mewtwo scaling, and gen 7 red and blue are 3-C, possibly High 3-A via Elio/Selene scaling.
Click to expand...
You forgot rainbow rocket stuff making postgame Alola stuff tied 2.
 
The following seems fine if we're scaling the Post-Legendary encounter mandatory NPCs as comparable.

Without using the Anime or Masters:
  • Gen 1
    • Champion Blue, Elite 4 Lance, and Alder stay at 6-C
  • Gen 2
    • Elite 4, Champion Lance, and become 6-B
    • Red and Blue 5-B
  • Gen 8
    • Piers, Raihan, Chairman Rose, Leon, Hop, Peony, Champion tournament Trainers become High 6-A
  • Gen 3
    • Elite 4, Wally, Wallace, and Steven become High 6-A or 5-B with ORAS
  • Gen 5
    • Zinnia, B/W N, Ghetsis and Cheren, B2/W2 Elite4, Champion Iris, Colress, Benga, Lysandre, AZ become "At least 3-C, possibly High 3-A"
  • Gen 6
    • Elite 4, Diantha "At least 3-C, possibly High 3-A"
  • Gen 7
    • Alola Elite Four, Title Defense Trainers become "At least 3-C, possibly High 3-A"
  • Gen 4
    • Barry, Elite 4, Volkner, Cynthia become "At least 2-B, likely 2-A"
 
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What happened to Galar Trainers being "At least 2-B, likely 2-A" during the Galar Star Tournament? Did something happen with that that I missed?
 
Thank you for helping out, Firestorm808.
 
Wouldn't Mt Silver Red still get the 2-A Scaling from Ethan canonically dealing with Arceus and the CT before fighting Red since we still count events as legitimate, since that has nothing to do with battle facilities ?
 
The_2nd_Existential_Seed said:
Wouldn't Mt Silver Red still get the 2-A Scaling from Ethan canonically dealing with Arceus and the CT before fighting Red since we still count events as legitimate, since that has nothing to do with battle facilities ?
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Ethan only deals with Arceus and such as an event, which is in no way mandatory to do (especially before Red as you are not required to beat that event to face Red), and thus we can't scale Ethan to things he normally can't do, as the event is limited in time
 
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