Pokémon Trainer revisions (RPG Edition)

[XXKINGXX69]

Also, I think its time we finish this thread if GyroNutz doesn't respond in a day

 

[XVII]

Also, I think its time we finish this thread if GyroNutz doesn't respond in a day

my name is deez

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Level reduction for Battle Facilities kinda goes against some of the narrative. It’s heavily implied that Frontier Brains are muuuch stronger than their champions, and that they’re supposed to be the crème de la crème. Things like Anabel being unimpressed with the protag’s defeat of Steven, Palmer being put up on this pedestal that not even Cynthia’s on, Leon being stronger than when he was Champion, and Red being well…Red, it falls apart that they need to be equalized to level 50 for this fight to be the battle to end all battles. Chatelaines are like the only exception because nobody knows who tf they are.

 

[Antvasima]

Each protagonist scaling to their respective box art legend is fine, though I'm not fully convinced about the creation trio inside pokeballs and am against scaling via battle facilities. The former is mostly unanimous at this point, though if someone can do a vote tally to confirm that'd be great.

Okay. Thank you for the evaluation.

Can somebody write a vote tally with accompanying brief explanations here please?

 

[GyroNutz]

Level reduction for Battle Facilities kinda goes against some of the narrative. It’s heavily implied that Frontier Brains are muuuch stronger than their champions, and that they’re supposed to be the crème de la crème. Things like Anabel being unimpressed with the protag’s defeat of Steven, Palmer being put up on this pedestal that not even Cynthia’s on, Leon being stronger than when he was Champion, and Red being well…Red, it falls apart that they need to be equalized to level 50 for this fight to be the battle to end all battles. Chatelaines are like the only exception because nobody knows who tf they are.

I disagree with this, Pokemon Champions are consistently implied to be the strongest trainer in their respective region.

From Cynthia, after you beat her: "...Just a few moments ago, you were the most powerful challenger. And just now, you became the most powerful of all the Trainers. You are now our newest Champion!" (Worth mentioning that Cynthia is implied to beat Palmer in the anime)

From Lance, before you fight him: "We will battle to determine who is the stronger of the two of us. As the most powerful Trainer and as the Pokémon League Champion… I, Lance the dragon master, accept your challenge!"

From Blue, in Silph Co: "I'm going to the Pokémon League to boot out the Elite Four! I'll become the world's most powerful trainer! <player>, well good luck to you! Don't sweat it! Smell ya!".

From Alder, before you fight him: "Say now, how about a match with the strongest Trainer in the Unova region?" (Worth mentioning that the Battle Subway can be battled as soon as you arrive in Nimbasa City, further debunking the idea that battle facility heads > Champions)

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Also, in the anime, Ash defeated Brandon, one of the Hoenn's frontier brains, and still, he is still no match for the likes of Cynthia during the Diamond and Pearl series, as even his Infernape is easily beaten by Flint's Infernape, who got stomped by Cynthia's Garchomp

When Iris became the Champion of Unova in the anime, she's explicably said to be "the strongest trainer in all of Unova"

I disagree with this, Pokemon Champions are consistently implied to be the strongest trainer in their respective region.

Steven also mentions that he's the strongest there is in Hoenn, further implying that Champions > Battle Facilities people

 

[Arceus0x]

Also, in the anime, Ash defeated Brandon, one of the Hoenn's frontier brains, and still, he is still no match for the likes of Cynthia during the Diamond and Pearl series, as even his Infernape is easily beaten by Flint's Infernape, who got stomped by Cynthia's Garchomp

When Iris became the Champion of Unova in the anime, she's explicably said to be "the strongest trainer in all of Unova"

Steven also mentions that he's the strongest there is in Hoenn, further implying that Champions > Battle Facilities people

That is only true for the anime though and we're talking about games

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

That is only true for the anime though and we're talking about games

This is true for both anime and games. Steven's and Cynthia's examples are from the game

Iris also mentions she was the strongest in Unova after beating Alder and becoming the Champion in B2W2, which make her > Alder and Benga

After Elio/Selene becomes the champion of Alola, Kukui says that they're the strongest trainers in all of Alola.

Leon is repeatedly stated to be the undefeated champion, and until the player defeats him, Leon is stated to be the strongest person in all of Galar

 

[Arceus0x]

This is true for both anime and games. Steven's and Cynthia's examples are from the game

Still, anime is irrelevant here

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody write a vote tally with accompanying brief explanations here please?

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Also, in the anime, Ash defeated Brandon, one of the Hoenn's frontier brains, and still, he is still no match for the likes of Cynthia during the Diamond and Pearl series, as even his Infernape is easily beaten by Flint's Infernape, who got stomped by Cynthia's Garchomp

When Iris became the Champion of Unova in the anime, she's explicably said to be "the strongest trainer in all of Unova"

Steven also mentions that he's the strongest there is in Hoenn, further implying that Champions > Battle Facilities people

This doesn't mean every frontier brain is weaker than their champion

Steven said that in Masters, I'm assuming? he could have just gotten stronger

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Okay. Thank you for the evaluation.

Can somebody write a vote tally with accompanying brief explanations here please?

The proposal is that many trainers such as Cynthia can scale to Tier 2 legendaries like the Creation Trio, and that a lot of game characters scaling to legendaries wouldn't be outliers. The staff members who have agreed are Starter_Pack, JustSomeWeirdo, DemonGodMitchAubin, CloverDragon03, Firestorm808, LordTracer
Elizhaa was neutral but hasn't commented or seen the rest of the replies after that

Ask GyroNutz to summarise what he disagrees with

 

[GyroNutz]

I also found this quote from Drake of the Hoenn elite four which strongly supports what I've been arguing:

"I understand there is now a facility called the Battle Frontier that tests the skills of Trainers. However, if you wish to have real battles, there is no substitute for the Pokémon League! Don't you agree, <player>?"

Talented trainers do well in the battle facilities because of their skills, but these aren't "real" battles due to the rules of the facilities.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

This doesn't mean every frontier brain is weaker than their champion

Yes it does. If both Steven and Cynthia are referred as the strongest in Hoenn and Sinnoh respectively (excluding the player who beats them), then that means that they're > Frontier Brains

Iris is also said to be the strongest in all of Unova when she becomes the champion. And Alder is also said to be the strongest before he's defeated by N

That would mean that Iris, N, and Alder are > Benga, who is the battle facility boss in the Black City/White Forest. Ingo and Emmet can also be battled since arriving at Nimbassa City, so they also aren't champion level

Steven said that in Masters, I'm assuming? he could have just gotten stronger

No. Steven also said that in B2W2 when defeating the player in Pokemon World Tournament

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Yes it does. If both Steven and Cynthia are referred as the strongest in Hoenn and Sinnoh respectively (excluding the player who beats them), then that means that they're > Frontier Brains

Iris is also said to be the strongest in all of Unova when she becomes the champion. And Alder is also said to be the strongest before he's defeated by N

Ok and what about the Johto frontier brain? Don't know why Lance in HeartGold and SoulSilver would be stronger. And Steven said that in BW2, not Emerald

And when was that Cynthia statement? It wouldn't matter much anyways, they don't have much in terms of scaling

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Ok and what about the Johto frontier brain? Don't know why Lance in HeartGold and SoulSilver would be stronger. And Steven said that in BW2, not Emerald

Lance also said that he's the most powerful trainer in Johto as the Champion before you battle him, meaning he's > Frontier Brains

Steven is referred as the champion of Hoenn in B2W2. Wallace also states that he's the strongest in Hoenn in Emerald

And when was that Cynthia statement? It wouldn't matter much anyways, they don't have much in terms of scaling

When you defeat her in all the Sinnoh games. This makes it pretty clear that Cynthia > Frontier Brains

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Lance also said that he's the most powerful trainer in Johto as the Champion before you battle him, meaning he's > Frontier Brains

Steven is referred as the champion of Hoenn in B2W2. Wallace also states that he's the strongest in Hoenn in Emerald

When you defeat her in all the Sinnoh games. This makes it pretty clear that Cynthia > Frontier Brains

OK

I think we can apply the changes now

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

This is true for both anime and games. Steven's and Cynthia's examples are from the game

Iris also mentions she was the strongest in Unova after beating Alder and becoming the Champion in B2W2, which make her > Alder and Benga

After Elio/Selene becomes the champion of Alola, Kukui says that they're the strongest trainers in all of Alola.

Leon is repeatedly stated to be the undefeated champion, and until the player defeats him, Leon is stated to be the strongest person in all of Galar

Cynthia’s and Steven’s were from the anime, dude. You used Ash as reasoning. The anime only character.
Iris very well can be the strongest Unovan trainer besides Nate and Rosa (even then that’s not necessarily true because Hilda and Hilbert exist). There’s no Battle Frontier in Unova. All the guys there in the equivalent are from other regions.
Same with Elio and Selene. Red and Blue and the people fighting alongside Elio and Selene are from different regions. Also, Elio and Selene being the strongest doesn’t mean people don’t stack up to them, which is why they have to outright defend their title against trainers they beat in the past, like Guzma, Hau, Kukui, Hapu, Lusamine, etc.
DLC has trainers explicitly above Leon, namely Mustard and Peony. Furthermore, even disregarding those, the Battle Tower had an even stronger Leon at the top, proving my point.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I disagree with this, Pokemon Champions are consistently implied to be the strongest trainer in their respective region.

From Cynthia, after you beat her: "...Just a few moments ago, you were the most powerful challenger. And just now, you became the most powerful of all the Trainers. You are now our newest Champion!"

However the Fight Area’s narrative description is where the best of the best trainers go out to battle. Heck, Palmer doesn’t even need to be above Cynthia, just relative, which he very much is if he’s >>> Barry who’s > Flint. There’s also the fact that Pokémon Evolutions supports the fact that Palmer is Barry’s endgoal.

From Lance, before you fight him: "We will battle to determine who is the stronger of the two of us. As the most powerful Trainer and as the Pokémon League Champion… I, Lance the dragon master, accept your challenge!"

Lance is…demonstrably wrong though. He knows Red and Blue exist, who would’ve destroyed Ethan if they fought right there and then.

From Blue, in Silph Co: "I'm going to the Pokémon League to boot out the Elite Four! I'll become the world's most powerful trainer! <player>, well good luck to you! Don't sweat it! Smell ya!".

G1. There is no postgame for there to be stronger than the champion in Kanto.

From Alder, before you fight him: "Say now, how about a match with the strongest Trainer in the Unova region?" (Worth mentioning that the Battle Subway can be battled as soon as you arrive in Nimbasa City, further debunking the idea that battle facility heads > Champions)

If the battle facility gets challenged before the champions then obviously they aren’t stronger. Granted, that has Ingo in it, who’s the only non-protagonist trainer period to have fought Arceus and had dialogue about it.

 

[GyroNutz]

However the Fight Area’s narrative description is where the best of the best trainers go out to battle. Heck, Palmer doesn’t even need to be above Cynthia, just relative, which he very much is if he’s >>> Barry who’s > Flint. There’s also the fact that Pokémon Evolutions supports the fact that Palmer is Barry’s endgoal.

Fight Area statements, such as those by Palmer, usually talk about skill rather than power. "Best of the best trainers" is likely referring to skill as well. For reference: "I remember you from when you were in Twinleaf... Show me the skill you've acquired as a Trainer!" and "You will become even more skilled the very same way your father did.", both spoken by Palmer.

Also Palmer can be Barry's end goal without being > Cynthia. He got whooped by Buck who is weaker than Flint, and although he beat Flint + Volkner he had the player's help who is far above all of them. Barry even states that the Champion is the toughest trainer, and he should be well aware of how powerful his own dad is.

Lance is…demonstrably wrong though. He knows Red and Blue exist, who would’ve destroyed Ethan if they fought right there and then.

HGSS makes it pretty clear that Lance would no-diff Blue with his actual team. Remember that Lance is still the champion for Kanto as well as Johto. As for Red, no one knew where he was or if he was even still training, but yes Red is objectively the strongest trainer in HGSS.

G1. There is no postgame for there to be stronger than the champion in Kanto.

He says the most powerful trainer in the world, and the statement exists in the remakes as well. But sure, that was mainly support.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

However the Fight Area’s narrative description is where the best of the best trainers go out to battle. Heck, Palmer doesn’t even need to be above Cynthia, just relative, which he very much is if he’s >>> Barry who’s > Flint. There’s also the fact that Pokémon Evolutions supports the fact that Palmer is Barry’s endgoal.

Barry isn't > Flint at all. Palmer is Barry's goal not because he's stronger than Cynthia, but because Barry's goal is to surpass him

Barry never challenged the E4 in the games

Lance is…demonstrably wrong though. He knows Red and Blue exist, who would’ve destroyed Ethan if they fought right there and then.

The meaning is in Johto. Also, the rematch Lance team is way above Blue as all E4 are superior to Kanto's gym leaders.

If the battle facility gets challenged before the champions then obviously they aren’t stronger. Granted, that has Ingo in it, who’s the only non-protagonist trainer period to have fought Arceus and had dialogue about it.

You forgot about Black City / White Forest. Benga is also stated to be weaker than Alder and Iris when she beats Alder.

In both BW and B2W2, Alder/Iris are > Benga

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Barry isn't > Flint at all. Palmer is Barry's goal not because he's stronger than Cynthia, but because Barry's goal is to surpass him

Barry never challenged the E4 in the games

Barry beats Flint and Volkner in a tag team battle with Lucas

The meaning is in Johto. Also, the rematch Lance team is way above Blue as all E4 are superior to Kanto's gym leaders.

Gyro said the same thing and I have no idea where y’all got that from. Did you guys forget that Blue has a rematch team too, and he still doesn’t use his starter?

You forgot about Black City / White Forest. Benga is also stated to be weaker than Alder and Iris when she beats Alder.

In both BW and B2W2, Alder/Iris are > Benga

The White Treehollow isn’t a battle facility, nor is Alder stronger than Benga. You don’t even meet Benga until after you beat his gramps.

Fight Area statements, such as those by Palmer, usually talk about skill rather than power. "Best of the best trainers" is likely referring to skill as well. For reference: "I remember you from when you were in Twinleaf... Show me the skill you've acquired as a Trainer!" and "You will become even more skilled the very same way your father did.", both spoken by Palmer.

Skill and power are used as the same words like all the time in Pokémon. Like, Steven is called a skilled trainer and he runs Hyper Beam on Metagross. In all seriousness, you can’t be the best while just being skilled. Skill gets you like nowhere if you’re gonna be one-shot unless you use game mechanics ridden strategies like FEAR

Also Palmer can be Barry's end goal without being > Cynthia. He got whooped by Buck who is weaker than Flint, and although he beat Flint + Volkner he had the player's help who is far above all of them. Barry even states that the Champion is the toughest trainer, and he should be well aware of how powerful his own dad is.

When is it said that Buck is weaker than his cousin Flint? Buck is able to keep up with postgame Lucas twice. Once in Stark Mountain as they fight alongside each other and then every battle in the Survival Area.

HGSS makes it pretty clear that Lance would no-diff Blue with his actual team. Remember that Lance is still the champion for Kanto as well as Johto. As for Red, no one knew where he was or if he was even still training, but yes Red is objectively the strongest trainer in HGSS.

I’ve answered this above but his first team is his actual team. He’s the champ. Unlike the Gym Leaders who have to use weaker Pokemon based on what level the challenger is at in their journey (see: Cheren being the first gym leader despite being a Pokémon League contender, and outright mentioning this fact), champs have no such caveat. They just go all out. If you see them stronger it’s not because they’re using a separate team for the occasion but because they outright got stronger.

He says the most powerful trainer in the world, and the statement exists in the remakes as well. But sure, that was mainly support.

Even in the remakes the 10 year old and incredibly cocky Blue Oak doesn’t know about how strong the people outside of Kanto are.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Barry beats Flint and Volkner in a tag team battle with Lucas

He only beats Flint and Volkner because Lucas/Dawn is there to assist him in the tag battle. And Lucas/Dawn are >>> Flint at this point so they can very easily carry Barry thorughout the fight without Barry needing to be > Flint. He is above Volkner though as he beat him in the game

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

He only beats Flint and Volkner because Lucas/Dawn is there to assist him in the tag battle. And Lucas/Dawn are >>> Flint at this point so they can very easily carry Barry thorughout the fight without Barry needing to be > Flint. He is above Volkner though as he beat him in the game

If Lucas was supposed to carry Barry it would’ve been a 1v2. It’s super apparent that the four are on the same level and it’s just that everyone caught up to each other. Volkner is canonically E4 level after all, even when you first fight him.

 

[GyroNutz]

Gyro said the same thing and I have no idea where y’all got that from. Did you guys forget that Blue has a rematch team too, and he still doesn’t use his starter?

Lance's team is stronger than his rematch team though. Literally the only thing that would suggest that Blue is stronger than Lance is that he beat him three years ago.

Skill and power are used as the same words like all the time in Pokémon. Like, Steven is called a skilled trainer and he runs Hyper Beam on Metagross. In all seriousness, you can’t be the best while just being skilled. Skill gets you like nowhere if you’re gonna be one-shot unless you use game mechanics ridden strategies like FEAR

Hence the battle facilities restricting Pokemon so that power isn't a factor. Like yeah, to be the best, you'd have to be skillful and powerful, but that doesn't mean these two words mean the same thing.

When is it said that Buck is weaker than his cousin Flint? Buck is able to keep up with postgame Lucas twice. Once in Stark Mountain as they fight alongside each other and then every battle in the Survival Area.

He's implied to look up to him in terms of strength, plus he's a stat trainer, narratively he shouldn't be as powerful as four trainers renowned for their strength.

I’ve answered this above but his first team is his actual team. He’s the champ. Unlike the Gym Leaders who have to use weaker Pokemon based on what level the challenger is at in their journey (see: Cheren being the first gym leader despite being a Pokémon League contender, and outright mentioning this fact), champs have no such caveat. They just go all out. If you see them stronger it’s not because they’re using a separate team for the occasion but because they outright got stronger.

What is this based off exactly? The same team that Lance uses for battle in the Dragons Den is his rematch team. His team is also weaker than in the gen 1 games, when he was an elite four member, 3 years ago. Why would Lance go all out when the player hadn't completed their league challenge fully?

If Lucas was supposed to carry Barry it would’ve been a 1v2. It’s super apparent that the four are on the same level and it’s just that everyone caught up to each other. Volkner is canonically E4 level after all, even when you first fight him.

The Elite Four level Flint and Volkner are on the same level as the above Champion level player? The logic doesn't work either, as when Barry helped the player on Mt. Coronet he admitted that he was far weaker than the player was then.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Barry in lore was always behind Lucas/Dawn. And Barry doesn't even need to be > Flint to beat them since Lucas/Dawn are more than enough to beat both of them, especially when they already defeated Cynthia, who in canon stomped all of the Sinnoh E4 and is repeatedly regarded as the strongest trainer in all of Sinnoh

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Lance's team is stronger than his rematch team though. Literally the only thing that would suggest that Blue is stronger than Lance is that he beat him three years ago.

By a mere two levels. Not to mention the canonicity of levels is debatable.

Hence the battle facilities restricting Pokemon so that power isn't a factor. Like yeah, to be the best, you'd have to be skillful and powerful, but that doesn't mean these two words mean the same thing.

When is it ever shown that canonically the tech in the Pokémon world has the power to de-level? (It exists in PMD thanks to Doom Seeds but I said canon) Let alone to the point of scaling that would require Elio, Cynthia, Blue, and Red to be nerfed by literal factors of infinity.

He's implied to look up to him in terms of strength, plus he's a stat trainer, narratively he shouldn't be as powerful as four trainers renowned for their strength.

Stat trainers even in competitive are a thing. That’s what hyper offense teams are. I’m very aware competitive means little but still. And that’s besides my point. Buck is demonstrably stronger than his cousin, as he battles Lucas after Lucas has surpassed Flint.

What is this based off exactly? The same team that Lance uses for battle in the Dragons Den is his rematch team. His team is also weaker than in the gen 1 games, when he was an elite four member, 3 years ago. Why would Lance go all out when the player hadn't completed their league challenge fully?

Bro, of course Ethan has completed his league challenge fully. That’s why he’s even fighting Lance at all. Lance is literally the final goal (until he’s not). And the Dragonite Lance brings to help out with Team Rocket is the same ace on his champion team. And again, the canonicity of levels are up to debate. The most we can assume for levels is that if they’re higher in the game they’re in, then they’re stronger, so long as it’s the same trainer. Like obviously Mt. Moon Silver is weaker than Dragon’s Den Silver.

The Elite Four level Flint and Volkner are on the same level as the above Champion level player? The logic doesn't work either, as when Barry helped the player on Mt. Coronet he admitted that he was far weaker than the player was then.

It’s not like they stagnate in power. Back in Johto every single Kanto gym leader wound up as an E4 level threat, if not higher. Like Cynthia glowed up too. Power creep is a thing.
We’re getting back to the thing this original post was trying to disprove. That we just assume the protag just sweeps everything in their path for no reason, even though we do that with not only no other JRPG, but no other game unless there’s direct proof that they did.

Barry in lore was always behind Lucas/Dawn. And Barry doesn't even need to be > Flint to beat them since Lucas/Dawn are more than enough to beat both of them, especially when they already defeated Cynthia, who in canon stomped all of the Sinnoh E4 and is repeatedly regarded as the strongest trainer in all of Sinnoh

Cynthia literally never stomped her subordinates. She’s just stronger than them. Also read above.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

By a mere two levels. Not to mention the canonicity of levels is debatable.

Actually, when you battle him in both Dragon's Den and the rematch E4, Lance's team has a much higher level than Blue's team

Stat trainers even in competitive are a thing. That’s what hyper offense teams are. I’m very aware competitive means little but still. And that’s besides my point. Buck is demonstrably stronger than his cousin, as he battles Lucas after Lucas has surpassed Flint.

And loses. Lucas at this point can easily defeat Buck so scaling him to Flint becase he lost to Lucas is not valid

Bro, of course Ethan has completed his league challenge fully. That’s why he’s even fighting Lance at all. Lance is literally the final goal (until he’s not). And the Dragonite Lance brings to help out with Team Rocket is the same ace on his champion team. And again, the canonicity of levels are up to debate. The most we can assume for levels is that if they’re higher in the game they’re in, then they’re stronger, so long as it’s the same trainer. Like obviously Mt. Moon Silver is weaker than Dragon’s Den Silver.

The same Dragonite also far surpasses Blue's ace in terms of levels when you battle him again after completing the Kanto gyms as well, meaning he became stronger than Blue at this point.

It’s not like they stagnate in power. Back in Johto every single Kanto gym leader wound up as an E4 level threat, if not higher. Like Cynthia glowed up too. Power creep is a thing.

The Elite 4 are always supposed to be superior to the gyms in both Kanto and Johto. While the gyms in Kanto have higher levels than the E4 before the post-game, when you rematch them after completing the Kanto gyms as well, the E4 becomes much more powerful than even Blue's team in his gym

Lance's team in particular is 15 levels above Blue's ace if you challange him agaIn after Ethan/Lyra complete all the gyms

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Cynthia literally never stomped her subordinates. She’s just stronger than them. Also read above.

Lucian also states that Cynthia is far above all of the elite four after you defeat him, meaning Cynthia is still >> Sinnoh E4

 

[GyroNutz]

By a mere two levels. Not to mention the canonicity of levels is debatable.

Again, burden of proof is on you to prove that HGSS Blue is stronger than Lance. Lance's statement, Blue's role and the in-game levels all show that Lance is stronger.

When is it ever shown that canonically the tech in the Pokémon world has the power to de-level? (It exists in PMD thanks to Doom Seeds but I said canon) Let alone to the point of scaling that would require Elio, Cynthia, Blue, and Red to be nerfed by literal factors of infinity.

Cyrus' computer shows that the likes of Palkia and Dialga can be prevented from using their full power with Poke Balls alone. And do you seriously think that GameFreak acknowledge the whole "factors of infinity" thing like we do on the site? Btw PMD is accepted as canon and Doom seeds aren't even the most notable example - there are entire areas where Pokemon are weakened to a specific level, which is canonically mentioned by one of Team A.W.D.

Stat trainers even in competitive are a thing. That’s what hyper offense teams are. I’m very aware competitive means little but still. And that’s besides my point. Buck is demonstrably stronger than his cousin, as he battles Lucas after Lucas has surpassed Flint.

First point is irrelevant (and probably untrue). For the second, Buck's statement aside, his battle is optional. Treating these battleground fights as canonical challenges would be the same as saying that every single Gym Leader, even Roark, has suddenly surpassed Cynthia. Which wouldn't make sense as Cynthia has been unbeaten for probably decades.

Bro, of course Ethan has completed his league challenge fully. That’s why he’s even fighting Lance at all. Lance is literally the final goal (until he’s not). And the Dragonite Lance brings to help out with Team Rocket is the same ace on his champion team. And again, the canonicity of levels are up to debate. The most we can assume for levels is that if they’re higher in the game they’re in, then they’re stronger, so long as it’s the same trainer. Like obviously Mt. Moon Silver is weaker than Dragon’s Den Silver.

Lance is the champion of Kanto and Johto, he and the elite four only use their strongest teams when the player has all 16 badges. Also Lance has at least 3 different Dragonites, how do you know that one is his ace?

It’s not like they stagnate in power. Back in Johto every single Kanto gym leader wound up as an E4 level threat, if not higher. Like Cynthia glowed up too. Power creep is a thing.
We’re getting back to the thing this original post was trying to disprove. That we just assume the protag just sweeps everything in their path for no reason, even though we do that with not only no other JRPG, but no other game unless there’s direct proof that they did.

Flint and Volkner can put up a fight against the player without being Champion level themselves. And just like Lance, each elite four member is far stronger than the Kanto gym leaders once you actually have all 16 badges.

The main point of my argument is that the respective champions of each generation are treated as the strongest in their region, with a couple of minor exceptions like Red and N. On the other hand, there's nothing to suggest that the Frontier Brains are revered for their power like the champions are. Instead, the battle facilities are based on skill, rather than power, due to the rules imposed. As such, trainers that you battle in these facilities should not be considered to scale to the Player based on these battles alone. All of the statement that I have brought up prove this point.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@GyroNutz

His battle is optional

I'll respond to everything else but for now, I will just call out the massive double standard of this statement.
Optional battle
Optional battle
Optional battle
Optional battle
Optional battle
Optional battle
I could go on to the point of this being unreadable but I've made my point.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Lucian also states that Cynthia is far above all of the elite four after you defeat him, meaning Cynthia is still >> Sinnoh E4

He does say that, yes. And Bertha says that Flint is far stronger than her. Even though Flint is canonically relative to Volkner, who by the logic here, is very much inferior to Flint. It's clear that it's just hype to hype up progression.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Two wrongs don't make a right, and if they are wrong, then these should be fixed too

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

He does say that, yes. And Bertha says that Flint is far stronger than her. Even though Flint is canonically relative to Volkner, who by the logic here, is very much inferior to Flint. It's clear that it's just hype to hype up progression.

No. It could be that Volkner trained later to reach Flint's level, which is supported by Volkner having Pokemon at Flint's level by the time Lucas and Barry battle them

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Two wrongs don't make a right, and if they are wrong, then these should be fixed too

I saw that comment coming from a mile away...
You'd have a point if it weren't for the blatant fact that it's not wrong. Nobody in vs debating says "it's optional so they can only scale to their own feats" or "it's optional so it's non-canon." Which is what he was arguing.

No. It could be that Volkner trained later to reach Flint's level, which is supported by Volkner having Pokemon at Flint's level by the time Lucas and Barry battle them

Ah so now they can train to get stronger, instead of them just having pocket teams that are much stronger.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Don't Gym Leaders canonically change their teams since they're meant to test the Trainer?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Gym Leaders do, yeah. But the E4 and up don’t.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Yeah, so Volkner might not have trained, he may have just used his actual team

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Volkner’s explicitly just been keeping up with his training after batting Lucas. It’s the same Electivire and all. However, it proves that levels are just for show, as 8th gym leader Volkner is stated time and again to be E4 level, even down to turning down the invitation to being on it.

 

[Antvasima]

@GyroNutz

Would you be willing to present all of the relevant parts of your arguments here in a single post please? I can call for other staff members afterwards so we make certain that we do not end up with an unreliable Marvel Comics-style chain scaling situation here.