- 167,703
- 76,303
Thank you. That is probably fine then.
Please be more specific. For example, are you going to change character statistics, and if so, in what manner?
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Pokémon Trainer revisions (RPG Edition)
- Thread starter The_real_cal_howard
- Start date
-
- Tags
- pokémon
- Status
- 13,160
- 20,880
I agree as well
- 12,562
- 2,517
Minor thing, but I disagree with Battle Tree trainers being peak G4 level. For any battle facility, Pokemon are set to level 50 meaning they can't use their full strength.
- 13,160
- 20,880
You sure this isn't just an example of Game Mechanics to put all Trainers on an even playing field?
Gilad_Hyperstar
He/Him- 11,384
- 4,322
This is kinda true. The same applies to the Battle Frontier/Battle Subway/Pokemon World Tournament battles as well, as they have the exact same thing going for them
- 40,469
- 12,953
- Thread starter
- #168
Yeah this
- 12,562
- 2,517
Even playing field, yes, but that's the whole gimmick of the place. Plus the upgrade only works because we're considering game scaling, so it's hard to call something so established like this as game mechanics.
Gilad_Hyperstar
He/Him- 11,384
- 4,322
Levels and Base stats are game mechanics though. You can have a level 1 Rattata beat Ultra Necrozma using FEAR strategies, but that doesn't mean it scales to it
Same goes for Battle Tree. Sure, all Pokemon are equalized to each other, but because of that, they aren't fighting with their true power (or rather, their powers get equalized), so scaling can't be done. It's like you will upscale Character A from Character B when they're put in a stat equal battle here
- 10,064
- 5,291
Okay, so I will admit that I fell off of this revision a little bit ago due to my IRL situation.
Would anyone care to fill me in on the general staff consensus, as well as create a list detailing which Trainers are being affected here? I asked this before, but I feel that if new information has been brought to the table since the last time I was here, then it only makes sense to tally everything agreed upon so far.
Would anyone care to fill me in on the general staff consensus, as well as create a list detailing which Trainers are being affected here? I asked this before, but I feel that if new information has been brought to the table since the last time I was here, then it only makes sense to tally everything agreed upon so far.
- 40,469
- 12,953
- Thread starter
- #173
Alright I’ll do my best to summarize this.
Since Pokemon is a JRPG, there’s no reason to not treat it like one. Which means scale the trainers who beat gods (or in this case Legendaries) to them, and not go loloutlier like we used to. Going throughout the games:
Kanto: Everyone Giovanni and upwards should be at least small country during the era of RBY. We don’t know when Red fights the birds, but this is the safest bet. By the time of Johto, every Gym Leader hits country, while teen Blue should be planet because Mewtwo. Red should be multiversal at this point. As he’s canonically Ethan’s final challenge, and Ethan canonically owns Arceus and at least 1 CT member. PWT (Unova era) puts them at a massive boost if allowed, which puts them all at multiversal because Volkner/Cynthia. Red, Blue, and Giovanni do hit multiversal due to Alola events regardless.
Johto: Clair and upwards get country level normally, but rematch teams get at least country for every Gym Leader. Just assume that PWT key is the same from here on out until we hit Unova.
Hoenn: Planet by the time of the 8th gym leader. Rematch teams for all gym leaders hit planet. Wally hits multiversal by the Alola era, but only Wally (again, depends on if PWT is allowed. If not, he’s just the first non-protag or gym leader to hit that level)
Sinnoh: No need for PWT. Volkner and upwards are multiversal, and by the time of the Battle Area, so is every named character that you fight again. From Roark to Riley.
Unova: Actually a hard one. Also I forget where we have Reshiram and Zekrom, but whatever level they’re at, only N and Ghetsis scale to them in the main game, while the E4 scale postgame. The gym leaders don’t scale until the two year timeskip during the PWT (except Cheren who hit it a while ago, and Marlon, who just scales). The rematch teams of the Elite 4, both pre-and post-timeskip hit multiversal because they fought a Hilbert after he fought Cynthia. Also Colress due to Alola.
Kalos: Yeah…just the E4 and Diantha scale to their Legendaries. Idk Kalos that well. Dexio and Sina, however, hit multiversal because they participate in Alola events.
Alola: Ultra Beast scaling for all Kahunas during the E4 times. Then everyone hits multiversal because Rainbow Rocket in USUM, but only at the end of the postgame, and those who participate in the Battle Tree.
Galar: Nothing changes for the main game. Postgame scales to multiversal. They literally fight giant Dialga/Palkia/Giratina.
Last edited:
- 40,469
- 12,953
- Thread starter
- #174
I’ll use Sabrina for an example and no not because she’s my favorite gym leader. These would be what her keys look like:
Whatever tier she is now | At least Low 6-B | 6-B | At least 6-B | 2-B, likely 2-A
RBY | RBY (Rematch) | GSC | GSC (Rematch) | PWT
I ain’t touching masters with a 50 foot Alolan Exeggutor neck.
Whatever tier she is now | At least Low 6-B | 6-B | At least 6-B | 2-B, likely 2-A
RBY | RBY (Rematch) | GSC | GSC (Rematch) | PWT
I ain’t touching masters with a 50 foot Alolan Exeggutor neck.
- 1,281
- 150
So zacian and zamazenta hits tier 2?
- 40,469
- 12,953
- 1,281
- 150
That... doesn't make sense to me...
- 40,469
- 12,953
- Thread starter
- #178
Trained Pokémon, Legendary or not, can reach any level when trained. But wild, they have a set level, most of the time. Theoretically, you can put most Pokémon with a multiversal key, as a majority of Pokémon are owned by a protag or gym leader that hit that level, but the only owned Pokémon that’s story relevant (with the possible exception of Red’s Pikachu and Charizard) that does that is Mewtwo, and even then it’s because of “USUM to Masters”
- 40,469
- 12,953
- Thread starter
- #179
Like think of it this way. One of the strongest Pokémon (if this goes through), like actually top 10, if not top 5, is a first route bird, that being Blue’s Pidgeot. But we’re not going to go and give the Pidgeot profile multiversal stats because of Blue’s individual Pidgeot.
- 1,281
- 150
Does Leon get a new key?
- 40,469
- 12,953
- Thread starter
- #181
Like unironically, the top 5 Pokémon would look something like this.
1) True form Arceus (nobody scales to this)
2/3) Elio’s Incineroar/Red’s Pikachu
4) Red’s Charizard
5) Blue’s Pidgeot
1) True form Arceus (nobody scales to this)
2/3) Elio’s Incineroar/Red’s Pikachu
4) Red’s Charizard
5) Blue’s Pidgeot
- 40,469
- 12,953
Eden_Warlock99
She/Her- 10,226
- 3,765
Main Game should scale to Eternatus tho
- 1,281
- 150
Excactly
- 17,287
- 12,728
wouldn't it be
1) True form Arceus
2) True form Palkia/Dialga/Giratina
3) True form lake trio
4. Elio's Incineroar/Red's Pikachu?
- 40,469
- 12,953
- Thread starter
- #187
Oh, yeah main game scales to Eternatus. At least by the time you fight him. I was thinking too much about Leon losing to Eternatus, forgetting that one, he matched him before Victor got there and two, fought Victor after Victor fought Eternatus.
- 40,469
- 12,953
- Thread starter
- #188
Nah. They scale above Creation Trio, even in their true forms, as Lucas does fight a full-power Giratina and he and Ethan own an Arceus avatar, and even the avatars scale above any wild Pokémon.
- 17,287
- 12,728
what? Nah man i'll stop you right there, no way in hell are any of these guys affecting a 2-A sized pokemon with freaking Thunderbolt. Full-power giratina? Arceus avatar? Those ain't squat compared to the ebodiments of space, time antimatter and everything across the entire multiverse.
- 40,469
- 12,953
- Thread starter
- #190
Y’know not affecting doesn’t necessarily mean weaker than. Also, that’s argument from incredulity. Joker shoots God with a gun. Bartz can punch out the embodiment of the void with his bare hands. It’s a JRPG. These things happen.
also like…Arceus avatar = Rei > explicitly true power Giratina. Teen Red = Ethan who has Arceus avatar, and Cynthia = Lucas > Distortion World Giratina
- 15,415
- 15,768
Wait, since when did Gold
GlaceonGamez471
He/Him- 2,686
- 1,262
I'm assuming something about the Sinjoh ruins event in HGSS or smth along the lines of that. Having Arceus is necessary for that to occur
- 1,080
- 285
Arceus event
- 15,415
- 15,768
Oh yeah, that was a thing. Didn’t know we included event stuff tbh
- 40,469
- 12,953
- Thread starter
- #195
This. Yeah.
- 17,287
- 12,728
'muh jrpg' isn't an argument. Other JRPGS are irrelevant, they have their own scaling and canon. Just because you believe that Pokemon follows the same type of logic as other JRPGS it doesn't automatically make it so. Yes it doesn't necessarily make them weaker physically but they cannot beat the true forms since true forms cannot be affected by them. This goes to the next logical thing > they are physically comparable to the avatars but can't hurt and kill the true forms, which makes the true forms be capable of defeating the trainer in question. Unless you can prove that the characters in question have 2-A range for their attacks and that proof is more than "well he hurt the avatar so he hurt the true frim" then I will not agree with your point of them being stronger than the space and time of the place where they live in.
- 13,160
- 20,880
To be fair, Arceus0x, your argument of this was really coming from an argument of incredulity. It was really just "I don't get how they could possibly affect these Pokemon":
- 17,287
- 12,728
my apologies, i must've worded it wrong.
What i wanna say is, I see no evidence to suggest that the trainers in question can affect the true forms and it is contradicted by the fact that many trainers can catch and beat dialga and palkia avatars without the true forms getting subdued.
- 13,160
- 20,880
I think it's more of a scaling thing, as Rei wields an Arceus avatar, which is superior to Giratina's true form
Speaking of which, how are we handling Giratina's true form given that its Origin Form is referred to in Legends as "its true strength"?
Speaking of which, how are we handling Giratina's true form given that its Origin Form is referred to in Legends as "its true strength"?
- 17,287
- 12,728
nothing really indicates that true form giratina is weaker than Arceus avatar. True form Arceus is >>>TF Giratina but that doesn't mean its the same for the avatar. At best the argument is that its immortal.
- Status
Similar threads
