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Pokémon Trainer revisions (RPG Edition)

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CloverDragon03 said:
Because it's essentially a middle ground that makes sense. Sure the protagonist can get stomped or stomp them if you bring a team that's severely underleveled or severely overleveled, but that's a game mechanics thing. An average case scenario would be a rather evenly matched fight.
Click to expand...
Why is it a middle ground? The protagonist beating the elite four isn't a game mechanic, its part of the story. What is an "average case scenario"?

the Kahuna's are capable of fighting UBs too.
Click to expand...

Scans?
 
XXKINGXX69 said:
Why is it a middle ground? The protagonist beating the elite four isn't a game mechanic, its part of the story. What is an "average case scenario"?
Click to expand...
The player winning and the player stomping are two completely different things dude. This is what we accept on the wiki. If you have a problem with it, make a separate CRT about Elite Four scaling to the protags. This is just taking the established scaling but with new values.

You also may want to ask someone that's more well-versed in Pokemon scaling. I think I'm pretty good with it myself but I know I'm not the best
 
CloverDragon03 said:
The player winning and the player stomping are two completely different things dude. This is what we accept on the wiki. If you have a problem with it, make a separate CRT about Elite Four scaling to the protags. This is just taking the established scaling but with new values.

You also may want to ask someone that's more well-versed in Pokemon scaling. I think I'm pretty good with it myself but I know I'm not the best
Click to expand...
I didn't say we have a confirmation the trainer stomps the elite four, I said we would have no idea how well the Elite Four members do
 
XXKINGXX69 said:
I didn't say we have a confirmation the trainer stomps the elite four, I said we would have no idea how well the Elite Four members do
Click to expand...
What I make of this is that major battles such as Gym Leaders, rival battles, Elite Four, evil team leaders, Champion, etc. are accepted as battles in which the opponent scales to the protagonist. Any further clarification will require someone more knowledgeable (and also someone better at conveying words)
 
CloverDragon03 said:
What I make of this is that major battles such as Gym Leaders, rival battles, Elite Four, evil team leaders, Champion, etc. are accepted as battles in which the opponent scales to the protagonist. Any further clarification will require someone more knowledgeable (and also someone better at conveying words)
Click to expand...
Where is this accepted?
 
Again, I don’t know, but that’s what we seem to accept. Remember that I haven’t been in Pokémon scaling for as long as others have, so I don’t know too much about when certain things that have been accepted for a while were accepted
 
i mean the dialogue generally suggests that the fight was good and satisfying, making the opponent feel thrilled. If it was a gigastomp by the player that wouldn't be the case for the trainers, unless you suggest that all main trainers are masochists
 
Arceus0x said:
i mean the dialogue generally suggests that the fight was good and satisfying, making the opponent feel thrilled. If it was a gigastomp by the player that wouldn't be the case for the trainers, unless you suggest that all main trainers are masochists
Click to expand...

That can be used as supporting evidence, but the battle being thrilling could have been because of so many other things, like if the Pokemon was having a lot of fun, maybe dodging attacks and much more
 
XXKINGXX69 said:
That can be used as supporting evidence, but the battle being thrilling could have been because of so many other things, like if the Pokemon was having a lot of fun, maybe dodging attacks and much more
Click to expand...
i mean being constantly under the threat of getting one-shotted, being one-shotted is all not really fun per say. Also, if the pokemon of the leaders can dodge attacks of the player that would mean they also scale to speed which in the case of S&M, Red&Blue, D&P would make the speed of the pokemon Massively FTL+ to Infinite
 
XXKINGXX69 said:
It is, that's pretty thrilling
Click to expand...
From Oxford languages:
Thrilling - causing excitement and pleasure; exhilarating.

I don't see anything pleasing about having your loved pets dodge death and get their ass beat within nanoseconds (you haven't countered the MFTL+ speed part)
 
Arceus0x said:
From Oxford languages:
Thrilling - causing excitement and pleasure; exhilarating.

I don't see anything pleasing about having your loved pets dodge death and get their ass beat within nanoseconds (you haven't countered the MFTL+ speed part)
Click to expand...
You know that Pokemon trainers find joy in that, right? Have you ever watched a battle in the anime?

Also, I don't see anything wrong with the MFTL+ one
 
XXKINGXX69 said:
You know that Pokemon trainers find joy in that, right? Have you ever watched a battle in the anime?
Click to expand...
No, have YOU watched a battle in the anime? Riddle me this transformers fan, where tf do we see a trainer enjoy a fight where their pokemon gets one-shotted and has to evade it constantly? Cause the closest i could find to that is Ash & Goh vs Mewtwo where Mewtwo was holding back a ton and didn't one-shot anyone. Every other fight that the trainers do enjoy has them fighting for multiple minutes, sometimes nearly an hour, with pokemon constantly exchanging hits.
 
Arceus0x said:
No, have YOU watched a battle in the anime? Riddle me this transformers fan, where tf do we see a trainer enjoy a fight where their pokemon gets one-shotted and has to evade it constantly? Cause the closest i could find to that is Ash & Goh vs Mewtwo where Mewtwo was holding back a ton and didn't one-shot anyone. Every other fight that the trainers do enjoy has them fighting for multiple minutes, sometimes nearly an hour, with pokemon constantly exchanging hits.
Click to expand...
Cause the closest i could find to that is Ash & Goh vs Mewtwo where Mewtwo was holding back a ton and didn't one-shot anyone.
Click to expand...

Yeah, that's one example. And why do you think its impossible to enjoy a battle you get stomped in? They could just be excited at seeing the strength of the enemy
 
Cause most people don't find it fun? You wouldn't say on a battle with a professional heavyweight boxer that the battle was fun when at any moment they strike once and you just lose. Even in fiction, in most canonical stomp battles between two characters, the losing character almost never finds that fun (Exception would be Goku Black when he battled Vegeta for the final time, but considering Black is a ********* that enjoys the pain to boost his power, he's clearly an exception)
 
Can the following mods please restate your stance on the current scaling proposal below?
The following is scaling the Post-Legendary encounter mandatory NPCs as comparable without using the Anime or Masters. Purely for the main Pokemon RPG.
  • Gen 1
    • Champion Blue, Elite 4 Lance, and Alder stay at 6-C
  • Gen 2
    • Elite 4, Champion Lance, and become 6-B
    • Red and Blue 5-B
  • Gen 3
    • Elite 4, Wally, Wallace, and Steven become High 6-A or 5-B with ORAS
  • Gen 4
    • Barry, Elite 4, Volkner, and Cynthia become At least 2-B, likely 2-A
  • Gen 5
    • Zinnia, B/W N, Ghetsis and Cheren, B2/W2 Elite4, Champion Iris, Colress, Benga, Lysandre, AZ become At least 3-C, possibly High 3-A, 2-B likely 2-A in BW2
  • Gen 6
    • Elite 4, Diantha At least 3-C, possibly High 3-A
  • Gen 7
    • Alola Elite Four, Title Defense Trainers become At least 3-C, possibly High 3-A
  • Gen 8
    • Piers, Raihan, Chairman Rose, Leon, Hop, Peony, Champion tournament Trainers become 2-B, likely 2-A
 
Firestorm808 said:
The following is scaling the Post-Legendary encounter mandatory NPCs as comparable without using the Anime or Masters. Purely for the main Pokemon RPG.
  • Gen 1
    • Champion Blue, Elite 4 Lance, and Alder stay at 6-C
  • Gen 2
    • Elite 4, Champion Lance, and become 6-B
    • Red and Blue 5-B
  • Gen 3
    • Elite 4, Wally, Wallace, and Steven become High 6-A or 5-B with ORAS
  • Gen 4
    • Barry, Elite 4, Volkner, and Cynthia become At least 2-B, likely 2-A
  • Gen 5
    • Zinnia, B/W N, Ghetsis and Cheren, B2/W2 Elite4, Champion Iris, Colress, Benga, Lysandre, AZ become At least 3-C, possibly High 3-A, 2-B likely 2-A in BW2
  • Gen 6
    • Elite 4, Diantha At least 3-C, possibly High 3-A
  • Gen 7
    • Alola Elite Four, Title Defense Trainers become At least 3-C, possibly High 3-A
  • Gen 8
    • Piers, Raihan, Chairman Rose, Leon, Hop, Peony, Champion tournament Trainers become 2-B, likely 2-A
Click to expand...
Disagree with 2-B, likely 2-A BW2 trainers, we don't use PWT for scaling.

Gen 7 Red and Blue can be 3-C, possibly High 3-A.
 
We do use PWT for scaling wtf

Gilad_Hyperstar said:
Cause most people don't find it fun? You wouldn't say on a battle with a professional heavyweight boxer that the battle was fun when at any moment they strike once and you just lose. Even in fiction, in most canonical stomp battles between two characters, the losing character almost never finds that fun (Exception would be Goku Black when he battled Vegeta for the final time, but considering Black is a ********* that enjoys the pain to boost his power, he's clearly an exception)
Click to expand...
A lot of people do find battles in which they easily lose fun
 
Firestorm808 said:
@Gilad_Hyperstar @XXKINGXX69

Can you please summarize what issue you two are talking about regarding the scaling?
Click to expand...
I don't really have issues with the scaling as of now, but I disagree with XXKINGXX69's saying that people enjoy being curb-stomped in battles, as in most cases, this is simply not true. Most people don't enjoy losing, especially when the winning side won by a landslide rather than the match being relatively even
 
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
I don't really have issues with the scaling as of now, but I disagree with XXKINGXX69's saying that people enjoy being curb-stomped in battles, as in most cases, this is simply not true. Most people don't enjoy losing, especially when the winning side won by a landslide rather than the match being relatively even
Click to expand...
Is this relevant to the current proposal?
 
Firestorm808 said:
Can the following mods please restate your stance on the current scaling proposal below?
The following is scaling the Post-Legendary encounter mandatory NPCs as comparable without using the Anime or Masters. Purely for the main Pokemon RPG.
  • Gen 1
    • Champion Blue, Elite 4 Lance, and Alder stay at 6-C
  • Gen 2
    • Elite 4, Champion Lance, and become 6-B
    • Red and Blue 5-B
  • Gen 3
    • Elite 4, Wally, Wallace, and Steven become High 6-A or 5-B with ORAS
  • Gen 4
    • Barry, Elite 4, Volkner, and Cynthia become At least 2-B, likely 2-A
  • Gen 5
    • Zinnia, B/W N, Ghetsis and Cheren, B2/W2 Elite4, Champion Iris, Colress, Benga, Lysandre, AZ become At least 3-C, possibly High 3-A, 2-B likely 2-A in BW2
  • Gen 6
    • Elite 4, Diantha At least 3-C, possibly High 3-A
  • Gen 7
    • Alola Elite Four, Title Defense Trainers become At least 3-C, possibly High 3-A
  • Gen 8
    • Piers, Raihan, Chairman Rose, Leon, Hop, Peony, Champion tournament Trainers become 2-B, likely 2-A
Click to expand...
We can just apply this after the people you tagged respond, because this is taking too long
 
Firestorm808 said:
  • Gen 1
    • Champion Blue, Elite 4 Lance, and Alder stay at 6-C
  • Gen 2
    • Elite 4, Champion Lance, and become 6-B
    • Red and Blue 5-B
  • Gen 3
    • Elite 4, Wally, Wallace, and Steven become High 6-A or 5-B with ORAS
  • Gen 4
    • Barry, Elite 4, Volkner, and Cynthia become At least 2-B, likely 2-A
  • Gen 5
    • Zinnia, B/W N, Ghetsis and Cheren, B2/W2 Elite4, Champion Iris, Colress, Benga, Lysandre, AZ become At least 3-C, possibly High 3-A, 2-B likely 2-A in BW2
  • Gen 6
    • Elite 4, Diantha At least 3-C, possibly High 3-A
  • Gen 7
    • Alola Elite Four, Title Defense Trainers become At least 3-C, possibly High 3-A
  • Gen 8
    • Piers, Raihan, Chairman Rose, Leon, Hop, Peony, Champion tournament Trainers become 2-B, likely 2-A
Click to expand...
I still think this is fine, and I still think we should have separate keys for the PWT, Battle Tree, etc.
 
XXKINGXX69 said:
That can be used as supporting evidence, but the battle being thrilling could have been because of so many other things, like if the Pokemon was having a lot of fun, maybe dodging attacks and much more
Click to expand...
Okay this is definitely wrong, the whole context was that Volkner was bored of all these challengers that were too weak before the protagonist came along
 
Firestorm808 said:
Can the following mods please restate your stance on the current scaling proposal below?
The following is scaling the Post-Legendary encounter mandatory NPCs as comparable without using the Anime or Masters. Purely for the main Pokemon RPG.
  • Gen 1
    • Champion Blue, Elite 4 Lance, and Alder stay at 6-C
  • Gen 2
    • Elite 4, Champion Lance, and become 6-B
    • Red and Blue 5-B
  • Gen 3
    • Elite 4, Wally, Wallace, and Steven become High 6-A or 5-B with ORAS
  • Gen 4
    • Barry, Elite 4, Volkner, and Cynthia become At least 2-B, likely 2-A
  • Gen 5
    • Zinnia, B/W N, Ghetsis and Cheren, B2/W2 Elite4, Champion Iris, Colress, Benga, Lysandre, AZ become At least 3-C, possibly High 3-A, 2-B likely 2-A in BW2
  • Gen 6
    • Elite 4, Diantha At least 3-C, possibly High 3-A
  • Gen 7
    • Alola Elite Four, Title Defense Trainers become At least 3-C, possibly High 3-A
  • Gen 8
    • Piers, Raihan, Chairman Rose, Leon, Hop, Peony, Champion tournament Trainers become 2-B, likely 2-A
Click to expand...
Agree with this, though I believe the Battle Tree/PWT should be separate keys
 
Thank you very much for helping to organise this thread, Firestorm808.
 
Firestorm808 said:
Gen 7 Red and Blue are required NPCs?
Click to expand...
They're post-game, but you need to fight either one of them to get to the Battle Tree.

XXKINGXX69 said:
We do use PWT for scaling wtf
Click to expand...
CloverDragon03 said:
Agree with this, though I believe the Battle Tree/PWT should be separate keys
Click to expand...
JustSomeWeirdo said:
I think the scaling's fine, but I don't see anything wrong with a separate PWT Key
Click to expand...
Like I said before, Battle Facilities shouldn't be used for scaling. Pokemon there are set to a specific level - it tests the trainer's skill, not their team's strength.
 
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