Overlord Bonus Volume Additions (Part 2)

[InfiniteSped]

Other thread got a tad too long, so, it continues here.

To summarize, we should add these spells to Ainz's profile:

Dimensional Lock: stops people from teleporting out of a certain area

Loopsided Duel: makes it so that if an enemy teleports somewhere, Ainz gets teleported with them.

Armaggedon Evil: summons several waves of demons, with the waves gaining 10 levels and losing half the numbers each time.

False Data: Mana: like False Data: Life, gives the wrong mana info when an opponent tries to analyze him.

Crack in the Ground: creates a giant crack in the ground that can trap the enemy inside, and apparently has an instant-death effect as well.

And also add his Staff's ability to attack, cast defensive spells, and summon beings automatically.

The things above are accepted by pretty much everyone, so all that's left to clarify is if the World Class Item users would get general resistances via those items. This would affect Ainz and most of the Floor Guardians, giving them resistance to Existence Erasure, BFR, Reality Warping, etc.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

• Bonesdrowyreply to #418 LSirLancelotDuLacl wrote:
  And that's the main problem, 'debunked'. I've seen no debunking besides differing interpretations of Ainz's mentality without any pertinent proof to back this up. You are even twisting my point about a World Item for every effect which has never had anything to do with anything of what I've said at ANY point and it's absurd. Like, have any of you actually read my points? Do I need to have to say it 10 times to make it clear? WCI doesn't care about the particular effect, WCI simply cares that a WCI is the source of the effect. Which is the exact same with Wild Magic, we have no reason to assume it "resists" specific effects, it just resists as long as it comes from Wild Magic.

I actually realized why it has been so stressful to argue this, because I am saying A and you are all saying B, so B is wrong and my proposal is wrong by consequence. Bone brought up how I know Wild Magic stops Wild Magic, when Cure is the one to say "Wild Magic..." hatefully when thinking how did Ainz survive. Honestly, I am actually done this time. I am not gonna argue this more, and I really don't care about the resistances. You can all decide what you want. I would like to apologize ahead if any of what I say sounds condescending or outright rude. A

majority of your argument is baseless assumptions that are derived from a specific interpretation (yours) of Wild Magic, Ainz behavior, and now Cure's own words. Somehow Cure saying "Wild Magic..." must mean Wild Magic makes one immune to all Wild Magic, and not just Cure assuming Ainz casted a Wild Magic spell to counter his own spell. So if Ainz were cast a barrier Tier spell to counter a damaging Tier spell and the opposition says "Tier Magic...." must mean Ainz simply having Tier Magic makes him immune to all Tier magic? Before even finding this quote you admitted that Wild Magic equal having immunity to other Wild Magic was just a 'pessonal' assumption.

There is no reason for EITHER side to use Ainz behavior to support one's argument, he is inconsistent and shown himself to never clarify his own actions or spells. It is literally up to interpretation for this to work.

You need to actually provide explicit evidence to prove many points, using vague statements/pieces of text from the novels to build a personal interpretation is not enough for some of these, to repeat myself:

You'll need to actually prove these

1. Wild Magic makes one immune to other Wild Magic (again no actual evidence or even indication of this in the novels).

2. A WCI makes one immune to all Wild Magic and vice versa, despite this being false as Ainz WCI didn't cancel out the anti-teleportation Wild Magic spell and Drsgon Lords are still capable of learning Tier Magic (at the cost of losing Wild Magic) which shows that Dragon Lords were still subject to the WCI that implemented Tier Magic into the NW.

3. Wild Magic can pierce ALL resistances just like a WCI, however this is false as how would ANY Dragon Lord lose a NPC/Player without a WCI. PDL himself admitted that he probably couldn't defeat an unequipped Shalltear which would make absolute no sense if his spells can pierce all of her resistances.

4. Making assumptions base on Ainz behavior with his WCI and the WCI itself. Which shouldn't even be used by either side as the author himself admitted to omitting parts of the fight.

The only thing similar between Wild Magic and WCI is that WCI cancels out Wild Magic (only specific Wild Magic was canceled). We do not know the reason for this, for all we know it could because the WCI is actually absolute in both worlds.

I don't know why there's even any contention, WCI already counters Wild magic, different magic source that until actually explicitly proven otherwise. This should be enough to support general resistance to specific effects or at the very least EE resistance. This is no different than Chakra countering mind control in Naruto (the same mind control that specifically targets the Chakra within the brain system), a energy source showing to only be able to counter the exact energy source, yet its still allow as general mind control resistance. (Sorry for keep using Naruto as an example, my mind has failed me in thinking of a better example)

On the topic of mind conteol Shalltear, I'll concede on it.

As for the quote relating to PDL, once again its a somewhat vague statement that one could twist in any way to fit their interpretation. Especially since information relating to Wild Magic is close to bare bones, so theres not much limit to what one could say. Especially since Downfall of Castle and country is a somewhat unique WCI in that we would actually need to see the interaction, since we don't know if the reason as to why PDL could 'probably' be immune to the WCI is due to a specific Wild spell. I really think a statement from a religious fanatics that don't even understand the entire mechanics of their own WCI would count as reliable, especially since they may have never actually used a WCI against a Dragon Lord with Wild Magic and may just think that its too different from Tier magic that it may cancel it out. Like I say, kinda vague and can be move around based on one's own interpretation.

Furthermore for your particular argument, it requires faaaaar more than just assumptions. You are making a claim that two separate magic systems (that are from two different Worlds, work on different mechanics, powered by different sources, etc.) are fundamentally similar enough in order to disprove general resistance. Its far harder to actually prove this than proving that its not similar to each other.

This shouldn't be in contention, by energy equivalency rules than it should support general resistances, as Wild Magic is still the universal magic trait of the New World as technically Tier Magic was forced into it from another world/universe. Countering Wild should be basically like Chakra countering other Chakra techniques (again sorry for keep using Naruto). If we were to say Wild Magic does in fact equal WCI, doesn't change the fact that Wild Magic is from a different world and runs on different source of power/mechanics.

I would like to clarify, this probably the best we're ever gonna get from Maruyama, especially with the whole 'release a volume once a year' schedule. Edited by Bonesdrowy an hour ago

• [1] ThePixelKirbyThat more or less sums it up. Every argument against requires assumptions about how Wild Magic works, how Ainz's psyche works, etc, while the arguments for can be summed up in "Well, he literally resists this effect that came from another, non-World source because of his world item. That's the definition of resistance."

an hour ago

• [2] The pen or the sword^ Those guy's? New favorite people.

an hour ago

• [3] InfiniteSpedThis is almost reaching 500 posts btw

an hour ago

• [4] The pen or the swordIm willing to go another five hundred if I have to, Ive called in FD and dragoo

an hour ago

• [5] ThePixelKirbyWe should cease saying anything unneccessary. Regardless, who is in favor, who is against, and who is on the fence? Since at the moment, the community seems mostly in favor, with a few on the middle and one or two against.

an hour ago

• [6] The pen or the swordLets see I know for a fact pixel, bone, deathnoodles, yoboblue, zenkaibattery1, darkwraths, escanor, emperor doom, and myself are in favor. 9

Infintesped, Apeironaxim neutral 2

Sirlance is against. 1

Edit rather than fill this bother me on my message wall and I can directly add your votes here. That way we don't waste space. Edited by The pen or the sword 12 minutes ago

• [7] Elizhaareply to #309 We should get a new thread since he have over 450 messages.

From Advice to the staff of the VS Battles wiki

• • Post new official request threads when the old ones are starting to get full (around 400 messages), by copying the text sections of the original posts in the previous threads.

Currently, I agree with @Dargoo's evaluations: Dargoo Faust wrote: Just to clarify, I'm fine with everything prior to the WCI resistances and stuff related to that. Edited by Elizhaa 4 minutes ago

• [8] InfiniteSpedGonna make another one real quick.

2 minutes ago

• [9] The pen or the swordreply to #319 Dargoo Faust wrote:
  I don't think the majority or my personal opinion on the matter should rule. I feel like you both have good arguments; it might benefit to call over other Overlord supporters to chip in on these changes, like FDrybob.

If there really is an impasse and no consensus can be reached, I'll make a call, though. Just throwing out there this was his second post. Im not sure a new thread is needed as most of this discussion is finished and it comes down to dragoo and you to decide.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Here is the votes

Lets see I know for a fact pixel, bone, deathnoodles, yoboblue, zenkaibattery1, darkwraths, escanor, emperor doom, and myself are in favor. 9

Infintesped, Apeironaxim neutral 2

Sirlance is against. 1

edit Anyone who wants to contiue the votes just copy and edit the above post, im signing off for the night.

 

[FDrybob]

I agree with Pen, though I'll wait for SirLance's reply before casting my final vote.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

If there really is an impasse and no consensus can be reached, I'll make a call, though. Just throwing out there this was his second post. Im not sure a new thread is needed as most of this discussion is finished and it comes down to dragoo and you to decide.

Hold the phone, while I did say I'm uncomfortable with picking a side here; I'm far more uncomfortable with one of the sides themselves picking a side.

Wait a few and I'll comment more extensively over the weekend, until then you guys can continue discussing.

Apparently that was a quote of myself; you should use the "{{Quote}.}" (minus period) or just quote the comments directly for quotes so as to not confuse people.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Sorry was just brining over a bunch of info from old thread was easier to copy and paste than anything else.

Edit glad we got that misunderstanding out of the way

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Yeah, your fine, I just misunderstood what you typed.

 

[Moritzva]

I've said all that I can really say.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Yeah im pretty sure thats why sir lance hasn't spoken again. Saying that if it would be helpful we could bring over some of our previous statments/arguments from the other thread.

 

[FDrybob]

In that case, I will vote in favor of the resistances.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Here is the votes

Lets see I know for a fact pixel, bone, deathnoodles, yoboblue, zenkaibattery1, darkwraths, escanor, emperor doom, FDrybob and myself are in favor. 10

Infintesped, Apeironaxim neutral 2

Sirlance is against. 1

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Before I accept any side, are you arguing that WCI provide resistance to all forms of magic or just the specific effects they've shown to protect Ainz from? I.E. Existence Erasure?

I'm mostly fine with that, however if we're generalizing to every magical effect in Overlord I have to say I agree with LSir.

Would it satisfy both sides to word the resistances like this?

"Resistance to Magic (World-Class items negate magical effects that attempt to interfere with their actions or their weilder as they are being used. This has allowed users of them to resist and bypass effects such as [see OP])".

That way Ainz doesnt resist stuff by virtue of having a WCI but rather by actively using one,

 

[Apeironaxim]

I think it's resistance to whatever effects WCI have shown

Such as EE, BFR, Sealing, etc

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I'm fine with that, then.

How does my wording of the resistance sound? I feel like it's consistent with how we see WCIs interact with magic, while adressing some of the concerns of LSir.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Our theory is he would resist any effect a world class item can create. For instance he would resist any form of existence erasure, regardless of its source. He would only gain resistances to things world class items have been shown to do. Like sealing, reality warping, bfr, mind control, and ee.

He of course only has these resistances with his item equipped, I feel your description is slightly off as he doesn't need to use the world class item simply have it equipped.

 

[InfiniteSped]

Yeah, the World protection is passive as long as you have the item equipped.

 

[Apeironaxim]

Here are the resistances from WCI if this goes through:

EE, Sealing, BFR, Reality Warping, Mind Control

Ainz would also get resistance to Soul Manip due to the other effect of Soulbreaker Breath

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Yeah ainz doesn't resist the effects due to taking some action with the world class item the resistances are the passive side effect of having such an item equipped. Hell we know these resistances are granted on equip as ainz mentions gain the protection of a world when he equips it.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

For instance he would resist any form of existence erasure, regardless of its source. He would only gain resistances to things world class items have been shown to do. Like sealing, reality warping, bfr, mind control, and ee.

I disagree with that. Every time we see a WCI negate something, it's because that thing in question tries to interfere with whatever the WCI is trying to do. Even in the bonus volume Ainz was using his WCI as it protected him from EE.

Also, it should strictly apply to magic; it isn't really negating EE in general as it is interfering with magic that produces it. Which are similar on paper but limited when considering other verses. Equipping seems to constitute as 'using' for some though, I'll give you that.

 

[InfiniteSped]

In the prologue, Ainz gets the World Protection just by sitting on the throne, so you don't really have to be using it in any way

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

What? In the bonus volume cure elm tries to erase ainz from existence, he is protected by his world class item. not from doing anything with said item, (We know it has active effects but ainz doens't use them) It simply offers him resistance from having it equipped.

It's negating existence erasure nothing implies its interfering with the magic being preformed. only that ainz is resisting the existinece erasure when it hits him. IT doesn't interfere with the effect being produced only with it actually effecting ainz.

Edit in fact even when world class items interact with one another they don't cancel the effects, ainz guild was kicked out of an entire world the only ones not forced out were those holding world class items but the world was still sealed they could simply pass through said seal.

 

[Moritzva]

I can stand behind it offering resistance from magical EE. That makes sense, given what we've seen.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

I suppose we could say he only resist these things when produced by magic but ive never seen such a destinction be made on profiles...

 

[Apeironaxim]

I can stand behind it offering resistance from magical EE. That makes sense, given what we've seen.

and soul manip too, since that's the other part of Cure's attack

 

[InfiniteSped]

I don't see why it'd only apply to magic.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

And we have nothing to say these resistances wouldn't apply to non magical sources. Though considering the tech level of new world we'll never get confirmation either way.

wait is that what he's saying? that ainz only has resistances to these effects from magical sources? I beleive I may have been confused by his original statment. So ainz and gaurdians would gain resistace to these effects if they are produced through magical means?


Since when have we needed to confirm a resistance will work on different means of producing the effect? Ive never heard of us making such a destiction before

Edit as I pointed out above its not interfering with the magic, just the actual effect. Thats why these would be considered resistances rather than power null.

 

[Moritzva]

Can we first say if the resistances gained are all World Item effects or just EE and Soul Manip before moving on?

 

[InfiniteSped]

If it works for EE and Soul Manip, it should work for everything else as well.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

All right I think it would be all world class item effects, as why would we asume soul manip and ee are the exception? dragoo whats your stance.

 

[Moritzva]

Right. From what I remember, BFR was only not resisted since a majority of Ainz Ooal Gown didn't have World Items at the time. Though, I could be wrong.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Its why they couldn't take back the world only ten of them could get in at a time, and only those in the world holding a world class item wern't kicked out.

Edtit even with touch me on your side you cant take back a mine from an entire guild with only ten players.

Final edit, thought Id throw in depitction of rivers and mountains again isn't canceled when used against another world class item holder, the area is still effected the world class item holder is simply not pulled in,

My point is its not like the magic is whats getting interfered with, it simply that holding a world class item allows you to resist the effect. Now that we've seen this same resistance apply against something other than world class items we know its not just a byproduct of only resisting the effects from world class items. We now know the resistance doesnt care about the source of the effect.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Thought Id add on regardless of acually using a world class item simply having it on grants its resistances. Ainz item has multiple effects one especially useful against dragons but by simply equiping it ainz gains what he calls the protection of the world.

Mare's gauntlets? Absorb exp, has no active effects other than allowing one to spend stored exp to cast skills/spells, Yet by having them on he gains the protection of the world. Depiction of rivers and mountains, grants the resistance to wci regardless of its active effect being used.

World class items have never functioned in the way you described dragoo, (the closest I can think of is shalltear resisting the dispelling effect of wish upon a star. But shalltear didn't have a world class item she was effected by one. As far as we know she resisted the effect and the spell still happened.)

Ainz equipped each of the gaurdians with world class items not for there actual ablities but for there passive resistances. Ie if shalltear had a world class item equiped when downfall of castle and country was used she would have resisted with no input from her. Much like she resisted depiction of mountain and rivers and had to activaly choose to enter the affected area, without using her world class item.

We originally thought those resistances would only apply to effects created by world class items but the fact they resisted wild magic shows the resistances aren't bound by whatever source the effect originates from.

The only way to explain this is either by A) equating wild magic and world class items (which considering the contents of the last thread I feel we have established why that doesn't make sense). Or B) the resistances is a plain resistances without bearing on the source of the effects they resist.

Maybe a scientfic existence erasure beam would effect ainz (we have no reason to suspect it would but for the sake of this point lets assume) That kinda difference is handled by verse equalization.

If ainz has shown to resist ee from multiple different sources of magic we have no reason to suspect its anything less than a straight resistance.

Heres a qoute from bonesdowery's previous statements

{{ I don't know why there's even any contention, WCI already counters Wild magic, different magic source that until actually explicitly proven otherwise. This should be enough to support general resistance to specific effects or at the very least EE resistance. This is no different than Chakra countering mind control in Naruto (the same mind control that specifically targets the Chakra within the brain system), a energy source showing to only be able to counter the exact energy source, yet its still allow as general mind control resistance. (Sorry for keep using Naruto as an example, my mind has failed me in thinking of a better example) }}

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

It was being stated that world class item protects one from erasure or resistances towards soul ripping or such stuff while everyone ignored the fact that wild magic isn't from Yggdrasil, I think before stuff like the above is added we should just wait for a Q&A by the author or a tweet to confirm if wold class items block all foreign magic.

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Have you read about the author? His catch phrase is it doesn't matter if you don't understand.

Second our whole point is it was foreign magic and we have no reason to suspect the resistances aren't flat anymore, due to them offering these resistances to both wild magic and wci. The only way that works is if a world class items and wild magic are equal. (Read the last thread where this was thoughrouly discussed and debunked.) Or b) the resistances are flat, assuming anything else requires us to make alot of assumptions about the nature of world class items and wild magic.

Edit, five hundred post on the last thread discussing this

final edit we aren;t saying it blocks foreign magic simply it offers resistances to the effects of other world class items. Wild magic showed us that theses resistances wern't bound by the source of the effect.

 

[Apeironaxim]

It was being stated that world class item protects one from erasure or resistances towards soul ripping or such stuff while everyone ignored the fact that wild magic isn't from Yggdrasil, I think before stuff like the above is added we should just wait for a Q&A by the author or a tweet to confirm if wold class items block all foreign magic.

Considering Maruyama's stance on explaining things in his story

The battle scene in this book might have ended up becoming confusing. Originally, perhaps there might have been a need to go "this is why he did so and so" but I deliberately omitted it. This work really does place a big burden on its readers. Perhaps I might have failed as a LN author, but like I've said many times, I personally think "it doesn't matter if you don't understand."

That's probably not happening

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Thats the whole reason this discussion toook place were not laible to ever get 100 precent confirmation either way. Thus we had to discuss to reach a new conclusion on how the resistances granted by world class items function

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

Yes, thank you. That was my whole point, that we shouldn't say it does this or that without actual confirmation. Eventually he'll answer tweets or post some info dumps himself. But well, since you're trying to reach a conclusion then I think it grants resistance/immunities against all foreign magic, instead of listing the abilities it blocks and adding it to Ainz's sheet.

 

[Apeironaxim]

Not every author is going to explain every little thing in their story

That's just not how things go

Also iirc, someone asked him a question on Twitter, and he answered "It can be whatever you want in your Overlord!"

So again, I'd rather not have to be reliant on everything being explained in excruciating detail from an author who is on record saying he won't

 

[The_pen_or_the_sword]

Thats a big assumption and even more overpowered if shown to be true. So world class items resist eachother and all other foriegn magic? The whole point of these last two threads was to avoid making to many assumptions about the functioning of wild magic and world class items. A flat resistance requires the least assumptions about the nature of two seperate magic sources.

We literally just qouted the author and his stance on sharing pertinent information.

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

Not every author yes but Maruyama has tweeted a-lot of things people don't know about.