One-Punch Man: High 7-A and 6-C Upgrade

[LordTracer]

So, recently, it was accepted that Awakening Breath Bang scaled to 6-C for his fight with Post-Darkshine Garou, who performed this feat at 5.4 gigatons.

In Chapter 147 - Toxic Substance, Bomb was able to fight on par with the same Garou for a significant period of time before ultimately being defeated. Since Garou is so close to baseline 6-C, being 5.4 gigatons, I believe it’s not unreasonable to downscale Bomb to High 7-A+.

With Bomb scaling to High 7-A+, this would upgrade a handful of characters, who can be found in the sandbox below with new justification, scans and references.

LordTracer/One-Punch Man: High 7-A and 6-C Scaling

vsbattles.fandom.com

Some characters here were also given minor scaling changes, namely Homeless Emperor’s physicals, Atomic Samurai’s durability and Metal Knight‘s missiles and preparation.

Homeless Emperor’s physical attack potency/striking strength are now Human level, because as he stated in Chapter 152 - Check, he is just a regular human without his powers. His durability is Wall level because (as @Recon1511 pointed out), he should logically scale above twelve-year old Saitama, who survived this.

Atomic Samurai’s durability is Unknown because, as far as I could tell, he doesn’t actually have any good durability feats. The durability justification on his profile isn’t a feat for him, it’s an anti-feat, and in Chapter 106 - Terrible Multiplying Bastard, he got beaten to a bloody pulp by Black Sperm.

Metal Knight’s missiles are Unknown because, like my sandbox notes, in Chapter 58 - Giant Insect, he seemingly made Elder Centipede scream in pain, but then admitted that his missiles couldn’t even scratch its carapace. His preparation is 6-C because Child Emperor, who was present when Tatsumaki deflected the artillery from Boros’ ship in Chapter 34 - Are You Stupid, claimed that Metal Knight’s weaponry surpassed that of any lone hero in Chapter 149 - Ambush.

For a quick summary:

• Bomb scales to High 7-A+ for his fight with Garou, this scales to quite a few other characters
• Homeless Emperor gets 10-B physical AP and 9-B physical durability
• Atomic Samurai’s durability becomes Unknown
• Metal Knight’s missiles become Unknown, and his tier for preparation becomes 6-C

So… yeah. Discuss.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

I’m not going to get into the things that I think should be added to the proposal here because I want this thread to go without a major argument.
the main point of contention for me is metal knight’s missiles not scaling.
Elder centipede’s AP recoil doesn’t result in him screaming in pain, so realistically metal knight should be within the same range as his AP, even if he didn’t cause visible damage. That’s really all I have to say.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Agree with everything else because metal knight is the only thing that I think needs to be changed, and everything else will come in another crt perhaps.

 

[Damage3245]

I'm currently not in favor of downscaling base Garou to that.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

I'm currently not in favor of downscaling base Garou to that.

Can you give some reasoning?

 

[Damage3245]

Can you give some reasoning?

Garou grows significantly stronger as he fights and he has done a lot of fighting between those two points, going from matching Bomb to taking him down in one strike, going from matching Bang to the shock from just one of his blows being able to break Bang's bones, and then he goes on to swiftly attack Fuhrer Ugly, Platinum Sperm and Evil Natural Water (albeit the latter two are fine).

The Garou who emerged from the surface to fight Bomb has rapidly evolved since then by the time he performed his 6-C feat. I'm wary about backscaling/downscaling at the best of times, but this looks like a clear case to me where we shouldn't do that.

Especially when this proposed upgrade would make the same Garou who fought Darkshine be equal to the same Garou who started fighting Bang on the surface.

 

[ByAsura]

shock from just one of his blows being able to break Bang's bones

That was just due to Garou using Bang and Bomb's combo technique. Bang was countering his WSRF/Iron Wind Cutting with his own WSRF during that whole exchange.

He was fighting him seconds prior to Garou using the technique.

 

[Damage3245]

That was just due to Garou using Bang and Bomb's combo technique. He was still capable of fighting Garou at this level.

With Water Stream Rock Smashing Fist, which is ideal for redirecting force and avoiding taking direct damage.

 

[ByAsura]

Look at the edit.

Garou was using the exact same technique + Bomb's abilities.

Also, that doesn't explain his punches alone harming Garou.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Garou grows significantly stronger as he fights and he has done a lot of fighting between those two points, going from matching Bomb to taking him down in one strike, going from matching Bang to the shock from just one of his blows being able to break Bang's bones, and then he goes on to swiftly attack Fuhrer Ugly, Platinum Sperm and Evil Natural Water (albeit the latter two are fine).

in the final clash of the battle, bang was still capable of damaging and staggering Garou relatively evenly. Garou’s AP advantage was irrelevant at best, since only the shockwaves were damaging bang anyways. The shockwaves obviously just scale above the user’s AP, or just dura neg (something about shockwaves disrupting atoms or something like that.
But if you’re claiming that Garou was a one shot above bang at the end of the fight then just look at the fact that he clearly is still capable of damaging Garou. Only the shockwaves are shown to have these properties.

The Garou who emerged from the surface to fight Bomb has rapidly evolved since then by the time he performed his 6-C feat. I'm wary about backscaling/downscaling at the best of times, but this looks like a clear case to me where we shouldn't do that.

During the hellfire wave he was capable of cracking platinum sperm’s face a little, and immediately after was able to dodge a hit from flashy flash and take hits from platinum sperm. As a reminder, he damages platinum sperm quite as almost the immediate next action he takes after his final evenly matched clash with bang. Garou only evolves in the heat of battle, and unless you’re saying kicking through fuhrer ugly like butter is the “heat of battle”, Garou had no chance to get stronger

Especially when this proposed upgrade would make the same Garou who fought Darkshine be equal to the same Garou who started fighting Bang on the surface.

Well yes, Garou was only capable of equally clashing with a superalloy bazooka at the very end of the battle, before he is quickly buried and then his immediate next fight with bomb followers. The Garou at the very end of the darkshine fight is no stronger than the Garou at the very beginning of his very next fight against bomb.

 

[Damage3245]

Look at the edit.

Garou was using the exact same technique + Bomb's abilities.

Noted.

My point is still that it's a lot to downscale for.

Consider that for upscaling, we tend to keep it below 1.5x or even 1.2x sometimes as a rule of thumb. The gap between Garou's feat and the proposed rating for base Garou is over 2x.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Upscaling from a calc value is usually more strict than downscaling from one. It’s decided on a case by case basis, anyways.

 

[ByAsura]

Especially when this proposed upgrade would make the same Garou who fought Darkshine be equal to the same Garou who started fighting Bang on the surface.

Consider that for upscaling, we tend to keep it below 1.5x or even 1.2x sometimes as a rule of thumb. The gap between Garou's feat and the proposed rating for base Garou is over 2x.

Given that Darkshine is actually stronger than Bomb/base Bang (surface Garou and Bomb aren't equal, they just fought), I think it makes sense.

 

[Damage3245]

Also, wait, why is the OP asserting that Garou was using Awakening Breath when he did the 6-C feat?

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Also, wait, why is the OP asserting that Garou was using Awakening Breath when he did the 6-C feat?

It doesn’t change the scaling chain either way since he still damaged platinum sperm who scales to the feat

 

[ImposingTiger]

I've never felt that it was a good idea to scale AB Bang to a feat that Garou did after waking up. I just think he's much stronger once he gets his consciousness back.

Also, I've never liked the idea of treating Rover's AP in such a uniform way. He can fire different energy balls, each one with different power. The one he fired against Bang and Bomb was clearly way bigger than the ones he fired against Garou. In my opinion it would be HM Garou = Rover's blasts (once he evolves he is able to tank them) < Post Orochi Garou < Darkshine = Spiral Garou < Surface Garou= Bomb= Bang < Rover's stronger attacks. That was in response to the claim that Darkshine is actually stronger than Bang and Bomb in their base states. This issue is not very important to the CRT so stick to my first comment.

 

[Damage3245]

It doesn’t change the scaling chain either way since he still damaged platinum sperm who scales to the feat

That's not really my point. If there's no Awakening Breath involved, then there's no downscaling, and then we end up in a situation where Darkshine = Platinum Sperm, despite Golden Sperm one-shotting Darkshine.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

I've never felt that it was a good idea to scale AB Bang to a feat that Garou did after waking up. I just think he's much stronger once he gets his consciousness back.

Waking up increases his skill and coordination according to darkshine, not his durability or anything.

 

[LordTracer]

Also, wait, why is the OP asserting that Garou was using Awakening Breath when he did the 6-C feat?

I’m not asserting that, I’m using the already accepted scaling that the Garou that matched Bang was 6-C.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

That's not really my point. If there's no Awakening Breath involved, then there's no downscaling, and then we end up in a situation where Darkshine = Platinum Sperm, despite Golden Sperm one-shotting Darkshine.

Although, darkshine was already in shock and mentally weakened by fuhrer ugly (who uses psychological attacks in-character) and was knocked out, but not actually visibly damaged by golden sperm. Even humans that are comparable to each other can KO eachother with uppercuts like that.
Golden sperm shouldn’t be 6-C tho, they should both be high 7-A+

 

[ImposingTiger]

Waking up increases his skill and coordination according to darkshine, not his durability or anything.

I know, but it is made a big deal out of the fact that he wakes up. He runs and destroys the cadres with a timer. Plus, he could always have had a reactive evolution after having his monster carapace broken by Bang as he evolves after taking damage.

Also, if you want to stick to real life mechanics, coordination is deeply connected with the nervous system, which is directly responsible for producing force, and extremely important in explosive exercises or maximal strength production (intramuscular coordination).

 

[ZillertheBucko]

I know, but it is made a big deal out of the fact that he wakes up. He runs and destroys the cadres with a timer. Plus, he could always have had a reactive evolution after having his monster carapace broken by Bang as he evolves after taking damage.

Also, if you want to stick to real life mechanics, coordination is deeply connected with the nervous system, which is directly responsible for producing force, and extremely important in explosive exercises or maximal strength production (intramuscular coordination).

every time his reactive evolution kicks in his body produces that smoky effect, like when he fought the death Gatling team, rover, adapted to gyoro gyoro, and grew against darkshine
he just woke up and that’s it, his durability and strength would remain the same, given that he is already fully functional while asleep and even has his senses activated enough to copy awakening breath after “seeing” it
It was only like a few seconds after defeating bang (and even throughout the whole fight, his reactive evolution never made him physically stronger than bang even at the very end) before he went and attacked platinum sperm and ugly and stuff

 

[Damage3245]

I’m not asserting that, I’m using the already accepted scaling that the Garou that matched Bang was 6-C.

Then why does your OP state this:

5.4 gigatons = Awakening Breath Garou = Awakening Breath Bang >= Base Garou.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Then why does your OP state this:

Garou is 6-C for damaging platinum sperm during the ultimate motion burst hellfire wave cannon, not for doing the 6-C feat itself

 

[ByAsura]

That's not really my point. If there's no Awakening Breath involved, then there's no downscaling, and then we end up in a situation where Darkshine = Platinum Sperm, despite Golden Sperm one-shotting Darkshine.

How? They're not even in the same tier.

 

[Damage3245]

How? They're not even in the same tier.

6-C = base Surface Garou = Bomb = Overgrown Rover = Half-Monster Garou = Darkshine.

 

[LordTracer]

Then why does your OP state this:

Because, again, the Garou that fought Bang is currently accepted at 6-C. That Garou was using Awakening Breath, so I’m using that for the revision.

 

[Dual_Binoculars]

Metal Knight has a calc for his missiles that would be better to use rather than just placing them at unknown.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

I still believe metal knight should just scale to the current AP of elder centipede for these reasons

I’m not going to get into the things that I think should be added to the proposal here because I want this thread to go without a major argument.
the main point of contention for me is metal knight’s missiles not scaling.
Elder centipede’s AP recoil doesn’t result in him screaming in pain, so realistically metal knight should be within the same range as his AP, even if he didn’t cause visible damage. That’s really all I have to say.

 

[Recon1511]

Awakening Breath (AB) is a technique that brings the user body to its limits, meaning that Garou was fighting Bang using his full power to the very end.

The argument here is that AB Bang is 6-C since he was fighting evenly with Post Darkshine Garou (Who was also using AB) and could damage him to the very end of the fight only getting defeated after Garou mastered the RASRF which we have accepted as a dura neg technique. The important thing here is that seconds after being damaged by Bang Garou oneshots VFU, damages Platinum Sperm cracking his face and making him bleed and is also able to dodge a surprise attack from Flashy Flash.

Bomb, Base Bang and Base Post Darkshine Garou and others downscale to High 7-A+ that's it.

Now regarding other topics, I disagree with Atomic Samurai having Unknown durability seeing that Black Sperm bodies being big or small is irrelevant since they can contain the strength of millions. We can see this when even small Black Sperm bodies removed all of Post EC Genos limbs and cracked his face. We can also observe that during the surface fight Atomic takes a punch from Black Sperm clones to the face only to shrug it off and keep fighting.

Unless we pretend that Post EC Genos durability is also unknown or that Kuseno thought it was a good idea to nerf his durability 3 whole tiers

There is also the fact that Atomic's durability as a physical fighter should scale to his striking strength. Yes, he uses a Katana but swinging one still takes a great amount of physical effort and he has also killed monsters with a mere toothpick so its certain that his own power is at play in all of his slashes.

If these are accepted then In Training Saitama goes from Low 7-B to High 7-A+ or 6-C I think

Not much else I think but I have to ask how the Low 7-B scaling works now, like, who starts the chain and who scales to who?

 

[LordTracer]

Black Sperm bodies being big or small is irrelevant since they can contain the strength of millions.

Nobody said anything about it being based on their size though?

We can see this when even small Black Sperm bodies removed all of Post EC Genos limbs and cracked his face. We can also see during the surface fight that Atomic takes a punch from Black Sperm clones to the face only to shrug it off and keep fighting.

Unless we pretend that Post EC Genos durability is also unknown

A. That punch that AS took on the surface drew blood from him (also post scans and chapter number)
B. Post-EC Genos has Low 7-B durability, so like… at best Atomic would have Low 7-B durability.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Awakening Breath (AB) is a technique that brings the user body to its limits, meaning that Garou was fighting Bang using his full power to the very end.

The argument here is that AB Bang is 6-C since he was fighting evenly with Post Darkshine Garou (Who was also using AB) and could damage him to the very end of the fight only getting defeated after Garou mastered the RASRF which we have accepted as a dura neg technique. The important thing here is that seconds after being damaged by Bang Garou oneshots VFU, damages Platinum Sperm cracking his face and making him bleed and is also able to dodge a surprise attack from Flashy Flash.

Bomb, Base Bang and Base Post Darkshine Garou and others downscale to High 7-A+ that's it.

Now regarding other topics, I disagree with Atomic Samurai having Unknown durability seeing that Black Sperm bodies being big or small is irrelevant since they can contain the strength of millions. We can see this when even small Black Sperm bodies removed all of Post EC Genos limbs and cracked his face. We can also observe that during the surface fight Atomic takes a punch from Black Sperm clones to the face only to shrug it off and keep fighting.

Unless we pretend that Post EC Genos durability is also unknown or that Kuseno thought it was a good idea to nerf his durability 3 whole tiers

There is also the fact that Atomic's durability as a physical fighter should scale to his striking strength. Yes, he uses a Katana but swinging one still takes a great amount of physical effort and he has also killed monsters with a mere toothpick so its certain that his own power is at play in all of his slashes.

If these are accepted then In Training Saitama goes from Low 7-B to High 7-A+ or 6-C I think

Not much else I think but I have to ask how the Low 7-B scaling works now, like, who starts the chain and who scales to who?

jet psykos scales to drive knight I guess
although that may end soon, if my scaling for at most high 7-A iaian and stuff goes through, then that would make all cadres including nyan at most high 7-A, making drive knight at most high 7-A, making psykos at most high 7-A, and so on
especially since fuhrer ugly's durability already is currently accepted as scaling to base bang....but I'm saving the good stuff for after this gets accepted

 

[ByAsura]

6-C = base Surface Garou = Bomb = Overgrown Rover = Half-Monster Garou = Darkshine.

I misspoke. I meant to say they're not equal, they're only in the same tier.

 

[Recon1511]

Nobody said anything about it being based on their size though?

A. That punch that AS took on the surface drew blood from him (also post scans and chapter number)
B. Post-EC Genos has Low 7-B durability, so like… at best Atomic would have Low 7-B durability.

It drew blood yes, but he still took it and shrugged it off. I would understand not scaling him if he took said punch, was left a bloody mess and knocked out but not killed (Like Snek, Stinger and Max durability not scaling to DSK even if they survived a beatdown) but this isn't what happened here.

Chapter 146 "Backup" page 4

And I also disagree with Post-EC Genos dura being Low 7-B, when Kuseno talks about his AP being higher than his defenses he is clearly talking about the 10 second mode that makes him go from City/Mountain Buster to directly clashing with lasers that slice the Earth. Not to mention that Kuseno especifically points out that the upgrade doesn't sacrifice armor integrity so his durability should remain at High 7-A+

Chapter 93 "Let's Go" page 57

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

And I also disagree with Post-EC Genos dura being Low 7-B, when Kuseno talks about his AP being higher than his defenses he is clearly talking about the 10 second mode that makes him go from City/Mountain Buster to directly clashing with lasers that slice the Earth. Not to mention that Kuseno especifically points out that the upgrade doesn't sacrifice armor integrity so his durability should remain at High 7-A+

There's a CRT about this happening right now lol

 

[ByAsura]

This is one of the things I had a problem with. Why assume EC's teeth are as durable as his exo-skeleton?

Genos got cut in half by EC and had his leg chewed off, first of all.

And AS could easily beat PsykoJet's attacks, and she could completely overwhelm Genos and Drive Knight.

So, durability and AP wise, characters on this level are >>> Post-Superfight and MA Genos.

 

[LordTracer]

This is one of the things I had a problem with. Why assume EC's teeth are as durable as his exo-skeleton?

Genos got cut in half by EC and had his leg chewed off, first of all.

And AS could easily beat PsykoJet's attacks, and she could completely overwhelm Genos and Drive Knight.

So, durability and AP wise, characters on this level are >>> Post-Superfight and MA Genos.

I would be perfectly fine with nuking the High 7-A+ scaling from Genos.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

well after thinking about tracer's reasoning again, yeah, he maybe isn't high 7-A+ with jet drive arrow
although post elder centipede genos would have high 7-A durability for other reasons anyways

 

[Cryo123]

I've never felt that it was a good idea to scale AB Bang to a feat that Garou did after waking up. I just think he's much stronger once he gets his consciousness back.

All it does is increase coordination, as Darkshine noted during his fight with Garou.

 

[Kachon123]

I know, but it is made a big deal out of the fact that he wakes up. He runs and destroys the cadres with a timer. Plus, he could always have had a reactive evolution after having his monster carapace broken by Bang as he evolves after taking damage.

Also, if you want to stick to real life mechanics, coordination is deeply connected with the nervous system, which is directly responsible for producing force, and extremely important in explosive exercises or maximal strength production (intramuscular coordination).

Read the OP in this thread. I don't feel like having a drawn out debate when your points have already been countered.