One-Punch Man: High 7-A and 6-C Upgrade

[Damage3245]

I mean, even if we say that applies to base Garou, then it just means the chain starts with Bomb. Nothing else changes.

Will the OP be updated for this?

 

[ImposingTiger]

AS's durability should at least scale to his individual slashes. Beeline Slash is literally 100 attacks merged into one, and his wrist is perfectly able to withstand his own swing. Him attacking with 100x his normal output and not getting a bone or two broken should indicate that he has a comparable durability to that of his AP.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

one of the factors of weapons is how they’re heavier, like a sledgehammer, so they can come down with more force at the cost of speed
but when your LS is beyond like class 10, the weight of a katana like that really stops to matter since you can lift it so insanely easily. It would be like trying to use a long toothpick as a weapon, it’s pointy but it doesn’t actually increase the force you output in a notable way since it’s so light.

 

[ImposingTiger]

one of the factors of weapons is how they’re heavier, like a sledgehammer, so they can come down with more force at the cost of speed
but when your LS is beyond like class 10, the weight of a katana like that really stops to matter since you can lift it so insanely easily. It would be like trying to use a long toothpick as a weapon, it’s pointy but it doesn’t actually increase the force you output in a notable way since it’s so light.

I'm not saying that. According to the 3rd newtonian law, when a force is produced, the same amount of force is sent on the opposite direction. AS has to be able to tank the same force he produces by swinging. Obviously, this is not entirely related to AP because of surface area. I know it's a sword and not a punch, but when AS swings an attack with 100x the AP of a normal attack and his wrist is still perfectly fine, you would think that his durability is at least above his normal slashes' AP.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

I'm not saying that. According to the 3rd newtonian law, when a force is produced, the same amount of force is sent on the opposite direction. AS has to be able to tank the same force he produces by swinging. Obviously, this is not entirely related to AP because of surface area. I know it's a sword and not a punch, but when AS swings an attack with 100x the AP of a normal attack and his wrist is still perfectly fine, you would think that his durability is at least above his normal slashes' AP.

I mean I was saying that too. To make attack with High 7-A force using a really light toothpick would require that you are actually high 7-A, since it's so light that your striking strength would need to be that level, and therefore your durability

 

[Tural2004]

?? Slicing through her beam is absolutely grounds to scale to it, and Atomic is already accepted to scale above Psykos because of it

Fair enough. But nothing still implies he did it easily.

Darkshine’s kick still dealt immense damage on its own, so… my point still stands.

Orochi was already a lump of meat at that point. Of course, it will seem mutilated. And making someone who is already heavily injured bleed is easy enough.

And yes, a Low 7-B character CAN survive that, because she has good endurance.

It would be an endurance feat if the opponent was 10x stronger and it was a single attack which knocked the opponent out instead of killing them. Here, it is a 1000x difference and multiple attacks where the character is conscious enough. A low 7-B character absolutely can't survive that without hax.

Because that’s not even remotely what happened to Rover

I am pretty sure that's what is called "squishing".

Hell, Rover is specifically noted to have taken no damage.

That's my point. Just because you squished someone doesn't mean that you are superior to them.

Orochi visibly took damage from Bang and Bomb.

He didn't though? And even if he did, it is small enough to make him scale.

Being a team effort means literally nothing for her AP.

It does if she survived a continuous assault from multiple High 7-A characters.

Psykosjet did absolutely nothing to any High 7-A character aside from getting beaten and mutilated by them

You are talking about a very short exchange in which she was already held back by promoted rook and got hit by a combo when she couldn't properly respond.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

I completely disagree with the idea that a character can punch another character, be not holding back, and not explode them into millions of pieces or completely donut them, but still be considered 1000+ times stronger than them
when I say something as outrageous as "a 9-B character shouldn't be able to stay completely intact after a 3-C attack, so even if they coughed up some blood and screamed in pain they should still be lower into galaxy level"
the only half reasonable way to do something like this would be like "at least low 7-B, likely far higher" which is still the coward's option tbh, just say they downscale once or twice or something
because as it stands now, most people here don't make the distinction between surviving an attack with bleeding and slightly cracked bones, and surviving an attack that made a million holes in your body but you have type 2 immortality, or just not surviving at all and being completely atomized by an attack
I know I'd get backlash for saying something like this but I think we need to have a discussion for a better system when it comes to these things
things would be different if at least darkshine kicked a hole through her body, but that's not what happened at all. It's not even the equivalent of caving in a skull, because it literally doesn't have a skull, it's a heart, it's completely made of orochi meat and that's why it can squish and stuff.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

it's kinda like saying a human's "at least 10-A" for surviving being in the absolute epicenter of a nuclear bomb but it hurt them really badly and their ankle is sprained and they coughed up blood so I guess they don't scale!

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

I completely disagree with the idea that a character can punch another character, be not holding back, and not explode them into millions of pieces or completely donut them, but still be considered 1000+ times stronger than them
when I say something as outrageous as "a 9-B character shouldn't be able to stay completely intact after a 3-C attack, so even if they coughed up some blood and screamed in pain they should still be lower into galaxy level"
the only half reasonable way to do something like this would be like "at least low 7-B, likely far higher" which is still the coward's option tbh, just say they downscale once or twice or something
because as it stands now, most people here don't make the distinction between surviving an attack with bleeding and slightly cracked bones, and surviving an attack that made a million holes in your body but you have type 2 immortality, or just not surviving at all and being completely atomized by an attack
I know I'd get backlash for saying something like this but I think we need to have a discussion for a better system when it comes to these things
things would be different if at least darkshine kicked a hole through her body, but that's not what happened at all. It's not even the equivalent of caving in a skull, because it literally doesn't have a skull, it's a heart, it's completely made of orochi meat and that's why it can squish and stuff.

it's kinda like saying a human's "at least 10-A" for surviving being in the absolute epicenter of a nuclear bomb but it hurt them really badly and their ankle is sprained and they coughed up blood so I guess they don't scale!

... Finally, somebody put my grievances into words!

... Oh, and on topic, what is the current status of this thread? Upgrades going to be applied or are things in a deadlock atm? ... Granted, I think it is the latter, but it doesn't hurt to ask.

 

[Tural2004]

Upgrades going to be applied or are things in a deadlock atm?

I think most people agree with the thread. Psykojet, Genos, and DK not scaling is the only problem I and probably a few others have

 

[LordTracer]

Orochi was already a lump of meat at that point. Of course, it will seem mutilated. And making someone who is already heavily injured bleed is easy enough.

When Darkshine lands his kick, there is a visible indent on Orochi’s body and he and Psykos are gushing blood from everywhere. That’s just from Darkshine’s kick, dude, and Psykos didn‘t withstand any of that force. She doesn’t scale.

It would be an endurance feat if the opponent was 10x stronger and it was a single attack which knocked the opponent out instead of killing them. Here, it is a 1000x difference and multiple attacks where the character is conscious enough. A low 7-B character absolutely can't survive that without hax.

Mm, now prove that this is how the wiki standard works. The durability page doesn’t say “it stops being endurance and becomes a durability feat when the difference is this great”.

This is like the same logic people wanted to use to scale Orochi to Tatsumaki’s spear. Orochi has a unique physiology that lets him survive attacks far more powerful than him. He was completely conscious after having a hole punched through him by Saitama, and he could even still move. By your logic, he should scale to that punch. Psykorochi survived being twisted into a modern art piece by Tatsumaki. By your logic, she should scale to the twist.

I am pretty sure that's what is called "squishing".

Taking an attack from both sides is not being squished.

That's my point. Just because you squished someone doesn't mean that you are superior to them.

When the person being squished takes visible damage from it, yeah, it kinda does.

He didn't though? And even if he did, it is small enough to make him scale.

No, actually, having your body crushed with blood flying off of it is not grounds for your durability to scale.

It does if she survived a continuous assault from multiple High 7-A characters.

I need you to re-read your own statement.

You’re saying that she has High 7-A attack potency… because she survived attacks.

Oh, also, PPP could damage Psykos. The same PPP that got one-tapped by Half-Monster Garou and is stated by Murata to be nothing compared to Darkshine. Should PPP be High 7-A now?

You are talking about a very short exchange in which she was already held back by promoted rook and got hit by a combo when she couldn't properly respond.

A combo in which she took damage from everyone present, including PPP, and you’re saying this means her AP scales.

 

[LordTracer]

Will the OP be updated for this?

Done.

 

[LordTracer]

For those of y’all that don’t like the wiki’s standards for surviving attacks, all I can say is to make a CRT, because it’s been like that for a while.

To use the example that the durability page gives of Meruem surviving the Poor Man’s Rose, Meruem was baseline Low 7-C (1 kiloton) before the HxH upgrades happened, and the Poor Man’s Rose was 7-B (18.5 megatons). That’s an 18,500x difference, over ten times bigger than the one you’re complaining about now, and there was still no scaling done, because Meruem didn’t withstand anything, he just survived.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

When Darkshine lands his kick, there is a visible indent on Orochi’s body and he and Psykos are gushing blood from everywhere. That’s just from Darkshine’s kick, dude, and Psykos didn‘t withstand any of that force. She doesn’t scale.

Your definition of withstood is kinda messed up, since even if they coughed up blood and got squished up, the area that darkshine hit was still completely intact
you can look at my post above explaining more rather than responding to this one though since I worded it best there

This is like the same logic people wanted to use to scale Orochi to Tatsumaki’s spear. Orochi has a unique physiology that lets him survive attacks far more powerful than him. He was completely conscious after having a hole punched through him by Saitama, and he could even still move. By your logic, he should scale to that punch. Psykorochi survived being twisted into a modern art piece by Tatsumaki. By your logic, she should scale to the twist.

Type 2 immortality doesn’t make people stay intact. Type 2 immortality allows you to survive say, a hole being punched through you, a piece of you being sliced off, being impaled, being blown to bits, having your heart torn out etc.
What type 2 immortality doesn’t do, is protect a low 7-B character from taking visible damage and being punched holes though, or kicked into pieces by high 7-A+ characters. The durability standards page even specifically mentions that your logic only applies to characters that were actually unable to stay intact (it uses having an arm cut off by a sword as an example) as being unable to scale, and using the wording of “attacks that others on their level wouldn’t be able to survive” as cases in which type 2 immortality or death defying stamina would come into play. There is no universe in which psykos is low 7-B, darkshine kicks her with a high 7-A+ superalloy bazooka, and she is only knocked away and coughing up blood, rather than having a donut hole through her body or being blown to bits.

Basically, people need to stop being so ridiculous about handling downscaling without actually knowing the difference between “surviving” an attack, and actually staying intact after an attack. Orochi being twisted? He did not stay intact. Orochi taking the spear is something he didn’t even stay intact from, the only panel we see of him is literally him having been pierced by it, followed by him being blown to bits. It’s completely incomparable to darkshine kicking him, and the heart staying completely intact and unpierced despite taking damage and
coughing blood.

To use the example that the durability page gives of Meruem surviving the Poor Man’s Rose, Meruem was baseline Low 7-C (1 kiloton) before the HxH upgrades happened, and the Poor Man’s Rose was 7-B (18.5 megatons). That’s an 18,500x difference, over ten times bigger than the one you’re complaining about now, and there was still no scaling done, because Meruem didn’t withstand anything, he just survived.

The durability page makes a clear distinction between staying intact, and just surviving. Staying intact is grounds for scaling, surviving alone is not.
I’ve never watched hxh but I’m to assume that mereum wasn’t entirely intact from that.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Also funny story, this whole “coughing up blood” business is kinda already considered somewhat less reliable scaling

Haemoptysis​

Haemoptysis is the act of coughing up blood. This is caused from the force of blunt attacks damaging blood vessels, causing blood and fluids to build up in your lungs. This created the popular notion that characters are getting their durability bypassed. This a flawed way of scaling, as organs and blood vessels are weaker than the actual body.

Causing Haemoptysis to a person by blunt force isn't the safest method of scaling. A way of scaling is from a boxer causing Haemoptysis to a victim who didn't gain it from another boxer's attack, the first boxer would scale above the second.

Gee this sounds familiar
It’s almost as if the durability standards are making a clear distinction between coughing up blood and actually being pierced, shattered, exploded, donutted, etc.
I wonder if this could be relevant to darkshine kicking psykos, orochi’s heart staying intact, but it coughs up blood

 

[LordTracer]

Your definition of withstood is kinda messed up, since even if they coughed up blood and got squished up, the area that darkshine hit was still completely intact
you can look at my post above explaining more rather than responding to this one though since I worded it best there

Once again quoting from the durability page:

Some characters are capable of withstanding damage to the point where an attack only leaves little to no damage on their bodies. In other instances, some characters are less wounded from attacks that seriously harmed others.

This is not what happened when Darkshine kicked Orochi.

The durability standards page even specifically mentions that your logic only applies to characters that were actually unable to stay intact (it uses having an arm cut off by a sword as an example)

At no point does it say that it only applies to characters that didn’t stay intact:

Many characters have been shown to survive attacks far above their durability, usually surviving with large injuries that others on their scale usually wouldn't survive. This is because of endurance, as they can endure a certain amount of pain regardless if the attack has burned them or sliced off limbs.

I’ve never watched hxh but I’m to assume that mereum wasn’t entirely intact from that.

Aside from looking like a raisin and missing an arm (which wasn’t because of the bomb)… yeah, his body was technically intact.

 

[LordTracer]

Also funny story, this whole “coughing up blood” business is kinda already considered somewhat less reliable scaling

This is not just “slightly coughing up blood”, it’s spewing blood from multiple places on their body. Hell, on the panel where Darkshine’s kick connects, you can see blood flying out of Orochi’s entire body. Some of those parts even look like they’re bursting open because of Darkshine’s kick.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Once again quoting from the durability page:

This is not what happened when Darkshine kicked Orochi.

That’s for direct scaling, not downscaling
if the only 2 options were “take little to no damage, or don’t scale at all” then we literally would never downscale a single character on this wiki
downscaling exists to create the distinction between “I’m in pieces but I lived” and “I’m in a lot of pain but all my parts are still there.”

This is not just “slightly coughing up blood”, it’s spewing blood from multiple places on their body. Hell, on the panel where Darkshine’s kick connects, you can see blood flying out of Orochi’s entire body. Some of those parts even look like they’re bursting open because of Darkshine’s kick.

The durability page doesn’t make any mention of “slightly”

 

[LordTracer]

That’s for direct scaling, not downscaling

No, actually, taking an attack but also receiving slight damage from it is textbook downscaling.

if the only 2 options were “take little to no damage, or don’t scale at all” then we literally would never downscale a single character on this wiki

Good thing nobody said that was the case.

downscaling exists to create the distinction between “I’m in pieces but I lived” and “I’m in a lot of pain but all my parts are still there.”

You love the word downscaling so much, but you still don’t understand how it works. Downscaling exists for when you take some damage from an attack, but you‘re. Spewing blood from every orifice on your body after a single kick is not downscaling, that’s just taking damage.

The durability page doesn’t make any mention of “slightly”

Doesn’t matter, my point still stands. The fact that you didn’t address any other part of that response and only went after the use of the word slightly is telling.

 

[Kachon123]

Why is this a debate? When Darkshine kicked Orochi, his body was literally ripped oven, spewing blood everywhere.

He does not scale.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Doesn’t matter, my point still stands. The fact that you didn’t address any other part of that response and only went after the use of the word slightly is telling.

I cut my response short cause I’m doing something else right now
It’s not telling of anything except me being busy

 

[LordTracer]

I cut my response short cause I’m doing something else right now
It’s not telling of anything except me being busy

Then why’d you respond to begin with? Focus on doing that and then make a proper response.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Then why’d you respond to begin with? Focus on doing that and then make a proper response.

Well besides what I already said to it, the only “tearing” there was the result of atomic samurai, all darkshine did was make it cough blood and squish him
and besides, you would also have to admit that bang and bomb (high 7-A+ characters) didn’t manage to do any of that either, they quite literally just squished him and made him scream in pain, they didn’t actually pierce him. So if not downscaling from darkshine, then at least downscaling from bang and bomb

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Anyways the durability page specifically makes it clear that coughing blood, tons or small, doesn’t qualify as “not staying intact”
And as established by the surviving attacks section, you only don’t qualify for downscaling if the attack actually is capable of going through you, such as being sliced or punched through the chest
this seems relatively clear cut, situations like this are why downscaling exists

 

[LordTracer]

the only “tearing” there was the result of atomic samurai, all darkshine did was make it cough blood and squish him

Look at the panel where Darkshine kicks him. Orochi’s body is bursting with blood because of that kick. And it’s not just coughing blood, it’s spewing blood from every orifice on its body. You keep ignoring that.

and besides, you would also have to admit that bang and bomb (high 7-A+ characters) didn’t manage to do any of that either, they quite literally just squished him and made him scream in pain

As I already noted, there’s blood spewing from all over Orochi when Bang and Bomb hit him, so nah.

Anyways the durability page specifically makes it clear that coughing blood, tons or small, doesn’t qualify as “not staying intact”

And “not staying intact” isn’t a required metric for it to be endurance and not durability, you’re making that up.

And as established by the surviving attacks section, you only don’t qualify for downscaling if the attack actually is capable of going through you, such as being sliced or punched through the chest

It literally doesn’t say that at any point. Once again, making stuff up.

 

[Recon1511]

I'm not saying that. According to the 3rd newtonian law, when a force is produced, the same amount of force is sent on the opposite direction. AS has to be able to tank the same force he produces by swinging. Obviously, this is not entirely related to AP because of surface area. I know it's a sword and not a punch, but when AS swings an attack with 100x the AP of a normal attack and his wrist is still perfectly fine, you would think that his durability is at least above his normal slashes' AP.

I don't really care about Psykojet stuff mainly because Ziller is clearly pushing for 7-A+ Drive Knight and nothing else.

But I insist that Atomic's durability should scale to his striking strength as Imposing Tiger pointed out. Hell even Sun Blade Atomic should scale to 6-C considering he withstood the clash of his sword against Golden Sperm's body.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

I don't really care about Psykojet stuff mainly because Ziller is clearly pushing for 7-A+ Drive Knight and nothing else.

I’ve literally already held this take on all things downscaling related
This has nothing to do with drive knight and you know it

 

[ZillertheBucko]

I mean at the most general level, even ignoring this specific case of darkshine’s kick, can nobody here at all even begin to think about the fact that under your ideas, someone getting completely vaporized by an attack would not be any different from someone who survives an attack with nothing except coughing up a lot of blood? I mean, the wiki standards themselves even say that coughing blood isn’t a strong indicator of AP and durability. Seriously, the very idea is silly.

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Seems like Garou's 6-C feat has issues

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Adding to the stuff from before
Darkshine causing orochi to tear open is a blatant lie, the only spots where blood is even coming out from besides coughing is literally in the exact same spot where atomic samurai already wounded orochi
you can quite literally see the imprint where darkshine’s kick landed, where the only visible damage is that it got squished in there
And don’t you dare bring up the bleeding in the back, which was quite literally already there in the exact same spot
The wiki standards say that causing blood coughing alone isn’t enough to have a direct scaling, so just saying “well it was a lot of blood” isn’t enough to justify darkshine being a one shot above orochi here.


and for the record bang and bomb hitting orochi’s heart had the same “blood” effect as when cosmic Garou punched saitama at the end of 167, it’s really ambiguous at best. Even if it was blood, it seems to just be a ton of little droplets coming out of the previous wound
orochi’s heart during and after being attacked by bomb and bang seems to not be majorly affected by it

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Seems like Garou's 6-C feat has issues

Just in time to ruin this thread

 

[LordTracer]

you can quite literally see the imprint where darkshine’s kick landed, where the only visible damage is that it got squished in there
And don’t you dare bring up the bleeding in the back, which was quite literally already there in the exact same spot

Y’know you can see bleeding flying out from the front of Psykorochi, right? Even though Atomic sliced them in the back.

The wiki standards say that causing blood coughing alone isn’t enough to have a direct scaling, so just saying “well it was a lot of blood” isn’t enough to justify darkshine being a one shot above orochi here.

No, the wiki standards say that it isn’t the safest method of scaling, not that it isn’t enough for direct scaling. Not that it matters because Psykorochi isn’t just “coughing up” blood, it’s spewing blood from every orifice on its body.

 

[LordTracer]

Seems like Garou's 6-C feat has issues

Perhaps this should be closed temporarily, until the calc gets fixed/recalced.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Y’know you can see bleeding flying out from the front of Psykorochi, right? Even though Atomic sliced them in the back.

Sorry but again, this reasoning is false
you can see in the 2nd scan that the wounds are on the opposite side from which darkshine’s approaching. So this is objectively false.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

No, the wiki standards say that it isn’t the safest method of scaling, not that it isn’t enough for direct scaling.

I mean obviously in this case it’s enough, but it specifically notes that making someone cough up blood is significantly easier than actually causing visible damage to them, as you can see by the lack of new visible damage from darkshine, not atomic samurai.

 

[LordTracer]

Sorry but again, this reasoning is false
you can see in the 2nd scan that the wounds are on the opposite side from which darkshine’s approaching. So this is objectively false.

There’s blood coming from literally every side of Psykorochi when Darkshine kicks them. In fact, you can see part of their body right next to their blade-arms bursting. Atomic didn’t attack that part, but you know what did attack that part? That’s right, it was Darkshine.

I mean obviously in this case it’s enough, but it specifically notes that making someone cough up blood is significantly easier than actually causing visible damage to them, as you can see by the lack of new visible damage from darkshine, not atomic samurai.

”lack of new visible damage”
Literally two posts ago, you acknowledge that Darkshine’s kick left a visible imprint on their body-

 

[Damage3245]

Perhaps this should be closed temporarily, until the calc gets fixed/recalced.

Okay, I'll close the thread for you as you're the OP.

If you want it re-opened, just leave me a message.