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- #41
they have the same position in the sense that jack holds the same position as king, but that doesn't mean they are equal in power
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One Piece: Sanji vs Fujitora
- Thread starter ZKillerz
- Start date
- Status
- 1,398
- 843
- Thread starter
- #42
But when is this portrayed though? They are never portrayed as equal powers outside of the og admirals...
Nobody is saying issho is definitively lower than the og admirals, but there's nothing to say he's on their lvl. Burden of proof is on you to prove he is
How is it downplay? His profile only scales him to aramaki not the og admirals.
I agree that he was holding back against doffy
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Basing your argument off of portrayal is completely useless and it holds less weight than a feather in a vs debating setting like we're in right now.
The burden of proof falls on you.
The reason we have Borsalino, Sakazuki, and Kuzan relieve to each other is because they were each individually called the Strongest in the Marines. How can 3 people each be the strongest? The only reason is if they're all equal/relative to each other.
Disregarding feats, If they did not have that statement, we would not have them relative to each other.
Because neither Aramaki nor Issho were stated to be the Strongest in the Marines, they can not be called equal to Borsalino, and especially not equal to Sakazuki or the Pre-Timeskip Admirals.
What does being scared of Kuzan and calling Aramaki a monster have to do anything with Haki scaling?
The accepted scale for Big Mom's Buso Haki is 6 layers and Katakuri scales to 7 layers despite Katakuri being scared of Big Mom and Big Mom clearly seeing him as far inferior to him.
We do not scale Haki based off of stuff like that. We only scale by feats, or specific haki statements.
And you think Doffy was going all out either?
I'm not trying to say Doffy = Issho, but you can't claim that their Kenbun don't scale to each other by saying one was holding back when the other was as well. We have nothing that proves that they were holding back their Kenbun.
In New World fights, Haki is the backbone. It's extremely rare that someone who has Haki doesn't use it.
That is not how Buso Haki scaling works.
Haki scaling comes from clashes. Haki clashes.
1. Blocking an attack ≠ Clashing
2. AP Clashing ≠ Haki Clashing
3. 1 person using haki while the other person is not ≠ Haki scaling
- 1,398
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- Thread starter
- #44
Can you explain haki layers? I'm not familiar with this term
DaMonkeMan
He/Him- 18,639
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I don't care what you think. If they have the same position and the same portrayal, and it is constantly said that the only person above them is the FA, then they're relative/equal.
End of discussion. Argue with Oda if you have a problem with that.
Keeping my vote.
End of discussion. Argue with Oda if you have a problem with that.
Keeping my vote.
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Read this thread
One Piece: Busoshoku Haki Potency and Buso Layers Scaling
First things first we have a clear heirarchy of Haki Potencies in the series. These will be the mechanics for finding out their potency. Scaling Methods of Buso A devil fruit power from a Haki user failing to work on another Haki user means the other Haki user is relative to (or superior to)...
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Your vote can't be counted then.
- 1,398
- 843
- Thread starter
- #48
What portrayal are you referring to though? The only thing you've shown so far is issho being stated to hold the strongest position in the marines not necessarily the strongest marine as the og admirals are stated to be...
DaMonkeMan
He/Him- 18,639
- 16,183
******* stop being a biased *****.
I'm tired of you always ignoring shit and making up headcanon for these threads.
All you're doing is being blatantly ignorant of the fact that Kizaru, Issho, and Aramaki are literally portrayed the exact same ways.
It's even worse that you're literally claiming Kizaru > Issho for this idiotic agenda.
Some how, you think they will appoint 2 characters weaker than the previous 2 Admirals and Kizaru for the same exact role as them? That make 0 sense.
They drafted Issho and Aramaki specifically because they think their power is a good enough replacement for Kuzan and Akainu.
Not to mention, they outright said the navy is stronger than ever under Sakazuki's rule.
But despite ALL OF THIS, you're still willing to say that Issho is weaker than the others, and that Sanji beats him.
Really sad. Really despicable. And just pathetic. I don't have many words for displays like these.
But what ever. Either way, Issho still has better range, AP, etc.
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If you have a claim (which the main part of your vote comes from) and it has counterarguments, but then you respond with "I don't care I'm keeping my vote," then it can not be counted.
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- Thread starter
- #51
Your acting like this is common knowledge and not agreeing with it is disingenuous when not even his vsb profile agrees with what ur saying...
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I'm not going to acknowledge the opinions and votes of someone who:
A. Argues against what is on the profiles
B. Disregards counterarguments, replying saying that they don't care
C. Uses Ad Hom
D. Can't structure a cohesive argument.
I'm not going to waste my time on you. If you want to have your votes counted, you need learn how to form convincing arguments, how to be respectful when stating your opinions, and how the wiki works.
A. Argues against what is on the profiles
B. Disregards counterarguments, replying saying that they don't care
C. Uses Ad Hom
D. Can't structure a cohesive argument.
I'm not going to waste my time on you. If you want to have your votes counted, you need learn how to form convincing arguments, how to be respectful when stating your opinions, and how the wiki works.
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- #53
Tbf the profiles can be incorrect at times like with eustass kidd
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Part of debating here is that if you're arguing something off of the profile, it can not be used as a vote unless you make a CRT and it gets accepted.
In that scenario, the thread would have to be on a pause for a minimum 2 days, as that is the Grace period for CRTs, before further debating continues.
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- #55
So should I remove his vote orr?
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Given how his reasonings are:
With only one of them (range) being based on his Admiral relativity take and he failed to address any of this:
I'd say to remove it until he does so and makes new arguments or makes a CRT to make all Admirals relative to each other.
DaMonkeMan
He/Him- 18,639
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Because his vsb profile doesn't account for the fact that some people will have agendas putting the old Admirals over the new ones for literally no reason at all.
Also, you can't disregard a vote because " he hurt muh feelings and doesn't agree with me " that's not even how it works, I stated valid reason for my vote.
Whether you like it or not, it's a valid vote.
Issho simply has better AP, range, Haki, etc.
And until you actually disprove those wincons, my vote will always be valid.
This isn't based on feelings. It's based on facts and evidence.
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Address this.
DaMonkeMan
He/Him- 18,639
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And no, I'm not making a CRT for something Oda him self has proved. Read the manga dude.
DaMonkeMan
He/Him- 18,639
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In terms of Haki, he should scale to Kizaru who scales to Marco ( who has Haki above Sanji ), and Aramaki, though the latter doesn't have a ton of Haki feats tbf.
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Why would Issho's Buso scale to Kizaru's?
And even if he did, Sanji's Buso still scales above the Marco that Kizaru scales tho.
Current Sanji > Onigashima > WCI > Dressrosa > BOTS Sanji > Average Haki (5)
Marco > Post-Jinbe Ace > Post-Sabaody Ace > Draw > Average Haki (4)
And even if he did, Sanji's Buso still scales above the Marco that Kizaru scales tho.
Current Sanji > Onigashima > WCI > Dressrosa > BOTS Sanji > Average Haki (5)
Marco > Post-Jinbe Ace > Post-Sabaody Ace > Draw > Average Haki (4)
DaMonkeMan
He/Him- 18,639
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Again, I don't need to make a CRT for what's in the manga.
Oda said they are comparable, so they are comparable.
I'm sorry you think otherwise but that's just how it is.
Also, something important to note is that Issho's sword most likely would not break on Sanji's sword.
Mihawk has said that swords coated in Armament Haki wouldn't break on anything, so I really doubt Issho's sword would crack on Sanji's body. It'd probably behead him, actually.
DaMonkeMan
He/Him- 18,639
- 16,183
Haki is required for Vice Admirals, and the implication is that Advanced Armament is required for Admirals ( we see all 3 of the original trio using it in Marineford, and it would stand to reason that due to them being overall stronger, they'd have vastly superior Haki to the VAs as well ), and that they are on the same level in terms of most stats (Kizaru is stated to have superior speed, but this is only one stat, if he were superior in another it would have been stated there as well).
https://media.**********.net/attachments/1001598025556312125/1082513593909661768/unknown.png?width=547&height=586
- ← He wears a blue flame and prevents Kizaru's attacks! He is also a user of the highest power of the color of armament."
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I'm not going to keep repeat myself after this.
If you interpret Oda's words that way, then sure. I tried to change your mind and you seem quite adamant in your opinion. The fact of the matter is that this wiki only goes off what is accepted on the profiles through CRTs. Even if you are correct, you would need to make a CRT to implement it before arguing it as fact.
DaMonkeMan
He/Him- 18,639
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Did you just seriously show me a panel of a fodder using weak Armament Haki on the Funk brothers and compare it to Issho using Armament on Sanji?
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1. Armament Emission is not Layers.
2. Is having a Devil Fruit an implied requirement to be an Admiral just because all of the Admirals have one?
3. Scaling above Vice Admirals' Haki pontency ≠ Scaling to each others' Haki potency
If Marco has the highest level of Buso, that means he would have been able to interact with Sakazuki, which he was not.
This is a figure of speed. Marco just as really potent Haki, which is evident in the fact that he has 4 layers of superiority over average haki users.
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I showed you a panel of someone with a blade coated in Buso having their weapon broken on something that wasn't, disproving your claim that Haki-clad blades can't break.
DaMonkeMan
He/Him- 18,639
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This too.
The fact the other Admirals can interact with Sakazuki and Marco can't is also good evidence for Issho's Haki being over Sanji.
Association fallacy.
You'd have to prove that Issho's sword would break on Sanji.
A random fodder with way worse Haki than both Sanji and Issho breaking his axe doesn't matter.
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How so?
When did I claim that his Buso-clad sword would break on Sanji?
It definitely wouldn't harm him, although if he doesn't coat his sword with Buso, it would break on Sanji.
Fix your wording then.
DaMonkeMan
He/Him- 18,639
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DaMonkeMan
He/Him- 18,639
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Literally never said that you said that.
Anyway, back on topic.
Because for now, I believe he has better AP.
Though Sanji seems to have better durability, possibly relative speed (as Issho doesn't have lots of speed feats so far), and his heat manip could give him trouble, though Issho can block it with Armament or use gravity to disperse the flames.
Oh, also Sanji's LS allows him to resist the gravity. So that's a plus.
On the flip side, Issho seem to have better Haki, AP, range, etc.
Both sides have some good wincons ngl. But I still keep my vote for Issho. He may not have a ton of speed or durability feats, but he still has a lot of portrayal, statements, and feats that should put him over Sanji in other categories.
Anyway, back on topic.
Can someone address this or does Issho just have better AP?
Because for now, I believe he has better AP.
Though Sanji seems to have better durability, possibly relative speed (as Issho doesn't have lots of speed feats so far), and his heat manip could give him trouble, though Issho can block it with Armament or use gravity to disperse the flames.
Oh, also Sanji's LS allows him to resist the gravity. So that's a plus.
On the flip side, Issho seem to have better Haki, AP, range, etc.
Both sides have some good wincons ngl. But I still keep my vote for Issho. He may not have a ton of speed or durability feats, but he still has a lot of portrayal, statements, and feats that should put him over Sanji in other categories.
They're equals in most stats.
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According to him, these are the reasons:
1. Admirals apparently being equal
2. Kuzan, Sakazuki, and Borsalino all showing Buso Emission in Marineford
3. Then having better Buso than Vice Admirals
The counterarguments:
1. Not reflected on the profiles. A CRT needs to be made.
2. Buso Emission isn't Haki Potency
3. 1000 and 6 are both > 2. That doesn't mean they are equal to each other.
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By the way, @TheMonkeMan, your vote still can't be counted until you make a CRT to get it on the Admirals' profiles.
DaMonkeMan
He/Him- 18,639
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That literally is not the only reason why I voted. Please stop doing that. Also you didn't even make the ******* thread.
They still did the same amount of damage nonetheless.
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Simply Range is not enough to give someone a win. Those quite liteally are the only things that could possibly give Issho the win (although Sanji still scales higher than Kizaru in AP).
Irrelevant.
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