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One Piece High 7-A Field Day (Wano+ Edition)

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KingTempest said:
He cut right through his 7-A+ weapon and drew blood from his 7-A+ body with an unnamed sword slice.
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Literally no one agrees with the "no name so it is weaker" logic, and cutting literally does not mean he is a whole tier above Apoo, and Apoo was up again 2 minutes after Zoro attacked him.
 
Damage3245 said:
I think a better solution would be to change Zoro's rating for the moment to:

"At least 7-A+, likely higher".

We don't really need to upscale him to another tier.
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So should we use this solution for Zoro, and start to discuss the admirals now?

Also, I am sorry that you feel frustrated KingTempest. It is hard for me to focus and evaluate in a sufficiently useful manner, partially due to juggling so many tasks, and partially due to my ADHD.
 
The options for Admirals.
  1. Assumptions
    1. Should be higher than so and so.
  2. Backscaling from weakened Whitebeard.
    1. Assuming how much weaker Whitebeard got.
  3. Calcing new feats
    1. Anything.
We don't have a basis for 6-C Yonko either after the 6-B Whitebeard feat was placed as environmental destruction.
 
@Antvasima - I only meant that the current thread changes be reverted, but I was told that more than what was discussed here was changed, but it seems I was misled, so it's not as severe as I thought. For the "New thread", I was regarding changes that have anything to do with Wano Arc as a whole since it's still in-progress and it seems strange to do anything "powerscaling" related currently (especially in cases where Zoro "one-shot Apoo", but we see him get up, taken out by Drake, and there could be potential to see him again in a semi-decent condition since the story is still on-going).

It's still a big topic to cover since I want to go into detailed reasons for each character scaling or NOT scaling to characters (such as Hawkins, who is currently a mess imo)

----
@everyone else basically

I keep getting pinged to come here anyways and now I finally got the gist of the other down/upgrades that have been occurring.

So... here I am, again.

I'm a little lost because of other changes not relevant to the current arc, so I wasn't sure about the 6-B downgrade actually going through. I currently don't see why any character is scaling to 6-C (since Kaido/Doflamingo 6-C/Likely 6-C feats are not on their profiles), and there was apparently a discussion about upscaling the Admirals to a flat "High 7-A".

First and foremost: We should at the VERY LEAST wait until fights have been concluded and are confirmed that x and y characters have been incapacitated before trying to discuss scaling. Currently, the only fight that seems to have reached its end is Kaido vs the 9 Scabbards (but this is unconfirmed since we are unaware of the fate of the Scabbards currently despite the plot leading us to believe that Kaido must have taken them all out before now). Similarly, it seems as though Apoo is out for the count, but we can't be too sure since characters in this verse tend to surprise the viewer by bouncing back like nothing has happened.

As such, any fight that seems to have ended, is occurring, or is about to start should NOT affect the profiles since none of us are aware of what is going to happen in the chapters proceeding. It will cause potential issues like currently, where we are discussing Zoro's tier--whether it ends up 7-A+/High 7-A. Watch us find out in the very next chapter he decapitates Queen or Kaido or something outlandish and we're back to the drawing board and have to discuss scaling further.

Next, I want to talk about the profile scaling in general:

Kaido (and the other Yonko) are listed as 6-C via what I presume to be "upscaling" from the 7-A+/High 7-A characters of the verse, when this is not acceptable (and it's not even stated on the profiles as far as I can see). There was also the discussion for "upscaling the Admirals above Doflamingo via Aokiji and making them flat High 7-A".

Now, before I get to what I want to say, look at it from my perspective: I definitely see Aokiji and Kaido as being above Doflamingo by varying degrees, but both being at the very least solidly above him (or in Kaido's case, massively). The problem with this is that this belief is not directly supported by the canon, and we can only go by what is given to us via statements and context:

Aokiji can not upscale way above Doflamingo just because we believe (or know in our hearts) that he is stronger than him by a potentially large degree. The canon does not imply this, and only that Doflamingo considers a fight with Aokiji to be troublesome and opt'd not to fight him (on top of the Law/Luffy situation).

Kaido on the other hand--Doflamingo admits to Law on two occasions that Kaido would be able to destroy him. Kaido also refers to Doflamingo as "weak" but I wouldn't use this comment as "100% fact" since it's subjective and Kaido was off the rocks (heh) when he said it. All this proves is that Kaido is stronger than Doflamingo, but this does not justify upscaling him a whole tier (inb4 the G4 one-shot comment).

What DOES justify Kaido being 6-C is his recent feat.

The reason I press on the whole "we need to discuss the Doflamingo feat first" is because Wano is on-going and we don't have a concrete idea on where each character is going to be since the events are on-going.

Last thing: I'm totally fine with Zoro being "At least 7-A+", unsure about "likely higher", but we'll get to that soon.

PS: we also need to discuss applying "higher with Haki" for literally every Armament Haki user's profile (despite my previous protests, it seems necessary now), or a "x tier with Haki" if there's a clear tier hop (ex: Bellamy hurting Luffy w/ Haki despite having Low 7-B AP normally)

PSx2: Also, where was this G4 Luffy downgrade discussed--or has it officially been discussed yet?

PSx3: @Eminiteable - How exactly isn't Apoo's Durability = his AP? He has a direct comparison to Kid as they both hurt eachother with a single attack. This is assuming of course there wasn't another change I am not aware of.

PSx4(This was a mistake): Also, I'm still struggling to understand why "Ittoryu" is considered Zoro's weakest when he only ever stated his inferiority with that style in East Blue directly, and I don't think it was ever implied afterwards. Granted, I could be missing a couple statements where he says he's just bad with 1-sword.
 
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Here is where the issue with Gear 4 was brought up. It wouldn't result in a downgrade of tiers, just a small downgrade within the current tier.
 
Damage3245 said:
Okay, well, this page here is the current basis of "Luffy is using at least 3 times the power of his Gear 3 attacks".

This is based around the interpretation that Doflamingo is talking about "Luffy's limit" as in the previous highest limit of his attacks which would be Gear 3.

But I don't think that's what Doflamingo is actually saying. Luffy isn't raising his power to be several times higher than Gear 3.

He's just doing the fist-compression thing to make his punch several times stronger than a normal punch. Hence why Doflamingo appears at first to be blocking Luffy just swinging his arm at him, and then gets sent flying. The tensile force is increasing the power of his Gear 4 state, not his Gear 3 state.

The end result is an attack that is, of course, stronger than his Gear 3 hits, but I don't think it is as simple as a "Gear 3 AP x at least 3 = Gear 4 AP".
Click to expand...
I'm mad that I missed this entire conversation.

Okay, I see where you are coming from with this, but I still think Doflamingo is still referring to Luffy's Gear 3rd in terms of previously shown "limit" (or at least the assumption that Doffy is comparing it to the raw energy he could be detecting from Luffy's transformation).


I think it's fine to compromise here since--like you said--it doesn't particularly affect the tier (but also because if Doflamingo ends up upgraded in any way, Gear 4th will automatically scale above him physically): I would say that we can just place Gear 4th anywhere from being ">3x Base Luffy" to "3x Gear 3rd Luffy" and that it's somewhere from one end to the other.

We also have to keep in mind that Gear 4th is perpetually using Haki in its attacks, so if Doflamingo really is comparing it to "base", it's likely he is including the Haki amp, which would automatically be higher than his Base AP anyways.

So my conclusion is: using Doflamingo's statement, we can determine that Bound Man is at least 3x Haki-amp'd Base Luffy's AP up to 3x Gear 3rd AP (already Haki Amp'd).

I know, convoluted as hell.
 
Either way, I would not say it should be "3x Base" since obviously the Gear 4th transformation in itself should be likely stronger than Base Luffy by some unknown degree.
Click to expand...

I agree with you on this point, but the 3x base Luffy is to find the baseline minimum for his strength. (And it's better than just scaling his Gear 4 to be > his Gear 3)
 
Cameron:

What do you think of Damage's suggestion regarding Zoro, and where should the admirals be placed?

Also, should we scale from Kaido lifting a large island or not?
 
It is likely that we're going to get details on Kaido's Devil Fruit in the next few chapters - so I would recommend we wait for the current fight with Kaido to be over before revising his statistics.
 
@Antvasima @Damage3245 - Like Damage said, wait on the Kaido feat (I totally forgot it was a DF feat for a moment), though I currently don't see why it wouldn't scale to himself since he has to be drawing that power from somewhere.

Regarding the Admirals, what are the proposed changes? If it's the upscaling to High7-A/6-C, I already gave my thoughts that I do not agree with this since it implies a lot of head-canon (and that the Yonko also have no 6-C justification anyways since the only feat they have collectively is Kaido one-shotting Gear 4th with his club).

For now, I hate to say it, but I think the Yonko should be downgraded to At least High 7-A until we settle on certain feats (Doflamingo vs meteors, other DC feats, Kaido's lift, etc) that would give them 6-C.

Edit: Also, the bit I mentioned about "Haki on the AP/Dura" for the profiles would affect the Admirals since each of them contributed to that feat of stopping whitebeard's quake (though partially).
  • Assuming the whole "6-C" thing comes from Kaido alone (and not Doflamingo's threads), Yonko would be 6-C while the Admirals retain the same stats, but have "6-C" with Haki scaling around 1/3 WB's AP, which would be comparable to Kaido..
 
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Zoro being "At least 7-A+" minimum is justified. I am unsure about adding the "likely higher" for now, but he will still have a "higher with Busoshoku" regardless, but I would prefer that to be part of a separate revision for all Armament Haki users.

Oh, also Zoro has a key that should not be there. The Wano key should be removed since it's exactly the same as the Dressrosa Key in virtually every way.

His keys should only consist of "Dressrosa| (the 7-A, scaling from Pica, and everything up until he acquires Enma at the end of Act 2) and "Post-Udon training" (everything he has showcased in Act 3 Wano onwards)
 
@XDragnoir - Gear 4th Luffy is pretty close to base-line High 7-A (especially when downgraded), so probably not. One-time cases like Zoro and Kaido's aren't enough to justify leaping a tier, especially in a verse where OHKOs can happen in fights where characters were previously shown evenly matched (though some cases like Zoro vs Mr.1 were a result of a power-spike/Haki).

Also, gotta consider we have Flat, "At least" and "Likely" for reasons similar to this. "At least High 7-A" would be enough to get the point across that Kaido is stronger than Gear 4th Luffy who is Baseline flat "High 7-A". We can't be handing 2x/5x/10x multipliers for every oneshot or else the verse would hit 6-B via pure stacking.
  • I'm fairly certain the VS match-up rules of "10x difference being a stomp" does not apply to scaling rules, so this is a definite no-no.

Doflamingo and Katakuri are the only characters with "upscaling" in the verse iirc due to being depicted far above the characters that were already pretty close to the border for "+" quite consistently.
  • Doflamingo for: Stomping Sanji, Smoker, dismembering Law with ease (and piercing through him with every attack that hit his body minus a kick), casually overpowering Gear 2nd Luffy consistently (before getting Gamma'd), no-selling Gear 3rd Luffy attacks with his threads, and his Bird-Cage being able to press both Fuji and Zoro (as a supporting feat if nothing else).
  • Katakuri for: Stomping Ichiji, stomping Gear 3rd Luffy in power multiple times, and is regarded as the strongest Sweet Commander (By randoms, Oven, acknowledged by other officers).
Doflamingo and Katakuri's "7-A+" is also baseline (when excluding their partial scaling to BM Luffy) so even if we had characters scaling way above both of them, there's no reason to put them above anything except "At least 7-A+" (Again, when ignoring the High 7-A scaling to Luffy)
 
CinCameron20 said:
Also, gotta consider we have Flat, "At least" and "Likely" for reasons similar to this. "At least High 7-A" would be enough to get the point across that Kaido is stronger than Gear 4th Luffy who is Baseline flat "High 7-A". We can't be handing 2x/5x/10x multipliers for every oneshot or else the verse would hit 6-B via pure stacking.
  • I'm fairly certain the VS match-up rules of "10x difference being a stomp" does not apply to scaling rules, so this is a definite no-no.
Click to expand...
Luffy is either 1.131 (3x base) or 1.650 (3x G3) iirc, while H7A+ starts around 2.650, it isn's a big jump actually.

If you are talking about the vs thread one-shot rule, it is a 7,5x gap iirc, but in-verse one shots can be used to go from "baseline" to "+" and then to the next tier, i mean, Zoro was going to be H7A for that alone.

Also, if the verse has more one shots they should probably be revised and applied, other verses did that when the rule changed afaik
 
If Zoro goes ahead and one-shots other 7-A+ characters and is consistently way above them, sure. But keep in mind Apoo is around base-line 7-A+ (hurting Luffy with Bop, stunning him with Don). Where was it even suggested that one shots allow a jump to the next tier?

(I mean, Apoo wasn't really downed with that hit butwe unfortunately don't get to see his condition outside of a shaking silhouette that's leaping into action.)
 
No idea where is the CRT for that, but it happened quite some time ago, iirc it was only from the + to the next tier, but them another CRT changed it to be able to from "baseline" to the +, i didn't read the thread (s) so take that with a grain of salt. We have it in the AP page:

"The "+" symbol can also be used if there exists a calculation extremely close to the arithmetic mean, and characters scale above the calculated feat by a wide margin, for example being able to defeat enemies on such levels with a single casual attack."
 
@KingTempest - Thank you.

XDragnoir said:
"The "+" symbol can also be used if there exists a calculation extremely close to the arithmetic mean, and characters scale above the calculated feat by a wide margin, for example being able to defeat enemies on such levels with a single casual attack."
Click to expand...

Alright, so this case doesn't support Zoro upscaling to High 7-A for a couple reasons: 1) Apoo himself is base-line for 7-A+ (maybe a bit higher if we assume he's stronger than non-G4 Luffy, which is pure speculation) and is no where near the border for the next tier, and 2) Zoro's attack was not casual (see his efforts beforehand, and he was clearly bloodlusted) and the attack itself didn't result in a one-shot

->And while I'm in agreement that Apoo still being able to fight should be partially attributed to his stamina, the reason I am against outright suggesting this is that we don't see his physical condition before Drake swooped in to finish him off. He is visibly shaken and fatigued, but the black silhouette prevents us from actually seeing how badly he was damaged :/.

My final thoughts for Zoro are: At least 7-A+ is a guarantee since he was capable of wounding Apoo quite badly with his Iai technique. I DO NOT AGREE WITH THE "ITTORYU BEING WEAKEST" DESCRIPTION THOUGH. I am at least 80% sure Zoro only ever mentions his 1-sword abilities being inferior all the way back to East Blue.. "likely higher" is something I'm indifferent on since it can often mean "higher in that specific tier range".

PS: Can someone remind me how to post links as text? I never bothered to figure it out when we switched to this forum.

Since this thread has already exceeded 500 posts, should we make a separate thread regarding the whole Katakuri/Doffy/Cracker scaling (and other topics of previous arc scaling) since I know that was a hot topic earlier in the thread?
 
Well, we are technically supposed to only have one content revision discussion per verse at a time.
 
When this thread gets concluded we could create a new CRT. We should preferably sort ouf the the profiles here that need changing then we can move on.
 
That seems like a good idea to me.
 
XDragnoir said:
Man, i agree with you, but i was talking about Kaido being H7A+ ;-;
Click to expand...
That is a possibility seeing as 1.65 gigaton is technically within a 1.5 ratio. Albeit just barely so it might be a judgement call.

I'm still not sure about an at "least rating" for Zoro tbh but either way 7-A+ seems more reasonable than 7-A or High 7-A.
 
@KingTempest; there's been several calc's for Oven's feats over the years from Ugarik, Calaca and myself. At one time that calc was probably remade.

Also - this is just going off my memory - I think one of the issues in that calc was assuming that Oven's attack went to the horizon when there's no way to prove that.
 
Thanks for clarifying it.
And I saw Calaca's calc using the official height, so that's probably the best option.

Can someone just blow up an island or something
 
It's not being discussed yet (iirc the 1 CRT rule per verse is still in session). I have a sandbox about some stuff I wanted to bring to the CRT though, I'll send it to you
 
30% Made up multipliers
40% FTL
20% Headcanon
10% Doesn't know how to speed scale
 
Damage: So what should we do here?
 
We change Zoro's rating to "At least 7-A+". Aside from that I don't think any other changes need doing at the moment.
 
Okay. That is probably fine then.

Should we close this thread afterwards, and continue elsewhere?
 
Just real quick, since there's no justification for the 6-C on the Yonko profiles (yet), we should downgrade them to "At least High 7-A, likely higher" scaling from Kaido's feat of one-tapping Bound-Man Luffy (who is somewhere between 1.13 and 1.65GT) and above characters like Doflamingo who blatantly call them out for being capable of "destroying" them.

@Dr.Fix - Is "At least High 7-A, likely higher" fine for Kaido right now? Gear 4th Luffy is getting that minor downgrade so the gap might be a bit wider.

Zoro being "At least 7-A+" for now is fine.

After that, the thread can be closed.

If someone wants to make the next thread, I can post discussion topics that we can focus on now while Wano is on-going (such as speed, previous arc scaling, pre time-skip if necessary, etc)
 
I agree with "At least 7-A+" for Zoro and "At least High 7-A, likely higher" for the Yonko and other God Tiers.
 
I am applying the changes to Zoro but also removing his current 2nd key as it is very redundant (especially since Basil Hawkins should be getting scaling from Zoro and not the reverse).

I will also apply the changes to the Yonko profiles.
 
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