One Piece Discussion Thread Eleven Sabaody Archipelago

[PlumCrayfish376]

Enel created El Thor with his own energy thus he scales to his own attack, it very casual and didn't required any prep or outside force. Luffy harm him, thus he scales. Wyper is shown comparable to Luffy, able to tanked his Bazooka attack and harm him, thus he scales

EDIT: @The Calaca - Congratulations on your promotion dude

 

[The_Calaca]

Luffy can grow stronger during an arc tho. He's shown stronger from time to time even between arcs and those events took place in the mid part and end of the Skypiea arc.

Plus, Luffy wasn't that damaged either. The fight ended when Nola ate Luffy rather than someone actually showing an upper hand.

Enel no-sold physical attacks from Zoro, even clashing with him without turning intangible and yet Luffy was able to one-shot him despite being weighed down by the gold ball.

I agree that the difference between the Burn Bazooka and the El Thor is significant, but electricity is always more dangerous than pure heat and the AoE is also really different. Enel can also phase the body with his electricity, and Nola shouldn't have any defenses nor thick inner skin to no-sell an electricity blast fired through his head.

That discounting the amount of bad things that happens when you get an electric shock in the head.

@Plum Thanks, dude.

 

[A-redswordtomato]

What do you mean by "no sold"? Because Enel never took an attack head on. He blocked a slash with his staff, that's not durability.

The burn bazooka bounced off of Nola's skin, while the EL Thor fried him completely, ignoring the damage done to the snake's nervous system that's still an absurd difference in energy, and the fact that it's shortly followed up by "your energy is nothing compared to mine" clearly shows the intent of the scene.

And how does Enel's durability scaling because he "created it with his own energy" make any logical sense? You might as well scale his physicals to island level since everything the Maxim does is also powered by his "enery".

 

[The_Calaca]

Zoro couldn't overpower him, so while it's not a durability feat per se, it's proof that he was able to physically clash with him with no problems.

"Your energy is nothing compared to mine" can also be interpreted in the way that the BB won't hit Enel no matter how many times Wyper try since his intangibility lets him just ignore any damage from weapons and physical attacks. Plus, electricity's temperature is much higher than regular fire's temperature so him frying Nola isn't that strange.

Nope, the feats done by Maxim ain't created by him alone. He uses his powers but the arc is used to increase the power of his electricity to create the black clouds that form the Raigo.

 

[PlumCrayfish376]

> What do you mean by "no sold"? Because Enel never took an attack head on. He blocked a slash with his staff, that's not durability.

That's a feat of durability. Enel was able to withstand the force of Zoro's attack with his staff.

> And how does Enel's durability scaling because he "created it with his own energy" make any logical sense? You might as well scale his physicals to island level since everything the Maxim does is also powered by his "enery".

I have no words to say to you than just read over my previous comment again. Clearly you have not read it.

EDIT: Calaca pretty much sum it up

 

[Damage3245]

Technically speaking I don't think Enel's durability should scale to the El Thor.

Logia users have resistance to their own elements.

 

[Antvasima]

A spoiler-free review of One Piece Stampede:

https://thelibraryofohara.com/2019/08/11/one-piece-stampede-review/

Lots of spoilers from the movie:

https://thelibraryofohara.com/2019/08/10/one-piece-stampede-spoiler-talk/

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

Is the movie canon?

 

[Antvasima]

It doesn't seem so, but the true name of the One Piece island is revealed in the movie.

 

[A-redswordtomato]

Okay, so if Enel scales to his durability, and he no-sold an attack from Zoro, then why does Zoro scale to Enel's durability?

And I'll just respectfully disagree with you there, Enel hadn't showcased his intangibility yet, and saying "your energy" doesn't really translate to "you can't hit me" in my opinion.

There's also the fact that Nami, who didn't know about Enel's intangibility, said that his energy was on a whole different level.

Heat is all Wyper's BB has, if a portion of the EL Thor's energy far, far surpasses that then scaling the former to the latter makes no sense at all.

The clouds are created by the Maxim using his energy, so I don't see why creating the El Thor with "his own Energy" is enough justification for it to equal his durability.

 

[The_Calaca]

He's backscaling, not exactly scaling to him. El Thor is a casual attack and doessn't require much effort from Enel.

Huh, yes. He was ignoring every single threat with intangbility. He even slept in front of Kamakiri just to show that against a Logia user they were completely defenseless.

That's because Nami, the weather expert, confirmed that Enel was like a living lightning, and force of nature can't be compared. Nami's also not the best way to measure Enel's power comparing him to the rest of the cast. She simply noticed that his fruit was more than they could take.

But we're not scaling them. You can backscale and be in the same tier with zero issues. The profiles would need a rework, I agree, but I'll work on that part later.

Because the Maxim is what is amplifying his powers, on top of requiring preparation to make such attacks. If you generate 5 gigawatts of energy to fill a battery of 100 GW you'll eventually reach the limit employing that energy on regular instances to get it full. You'd need to do that 20 times and you'll have a 100GW battery. You're not that strong by yourself because you can't generate more than 5 GW per second/try, it's the battery that contains such power.

 

[Aerozz]

Btw didnt enel broke the sea stone from wiper shoes? (sea stone said to be as hard as dimonds) just saying will that upgrade his strength in overall.

this chapter 276 https://*********.com/Manga/One-Piece/One-Piece---276?id=319679

 

[A-redswordtomato]

The thing is, the backscaling is illogical. Zoro's AP scales to Enel's durability which scales to the EL Thor, but Enel no-sold Zoro's attacks according to you.

I think you're misunderstanding me, when Enel made that statement he hadn't showcased his intangibility to the people in front of him (Zoro, Robin, Nami..) and Kamakiri was taken out before he could inform Wyper about it as well. So it makes no sense for Enel to brag about something his opponents aren't even aware of yet.

Was it ever stated the Maxim worked as an amplifier?

From what I understood it just mechanically produced Thunderclouds using Enel's energy, which he could control.

And I don't think you're getting my point, apparently Enel's durability scales to the EL Thor because he made the attack with his own energy, but the Raigo clouds are also made with his energy, so nitpicking what he scales to is hiding an outlier.

I'll just summarize my points since this is getting pretty tiring:

Enel said that the energy of his opponents is nothing compared to his, this is also supported by Nami.

His EL Thor one-shot an opponent who no-sold Wyper's attacks, therefor an EL Thor is >>>> Wyper's AP.

Wyper injured Luffy and was comparable to him, so Luffy (outside of electrical resistance) shouldn't scale to the EL Thor.

Sanji was one-shot by the EL Thor, so he shouldn't scale.

There's not enough evidence to suggest that Enel's durability would scale to one of his attacks.

 

[PlumCrayfish376]

> And I don't think you're getting my point, apparently Enel's durability scales to the EL Thor because he made the attack with his own energy, but the Raigo clouds are also made with his energy, so nitpicking what he scales to is hiding an outlier.

.... Really? Nitpicking what he scales to? Hiding an outlier? Well, I agree that this is tiring. Even in the same chapter and same page you posed before about the Maxim, which is Chapter 280-281 I think, Enel describes the the creation of the large thunder clouds over Skypeia as energy accumulating over time, meaning that Enel charge ship with lightning, and the ship proceeded to accumulating that power over and over til it becomes the immense thundercloud that would soon become the Raigo. The Raigo is not something he can do immediately as it takes time to charge it up to where it is very deadly.

So, do you have any proof that Enel could have generate enough power by himself to create the Raigo without the Maxim, otherwise what is the need for him to create such a system if he didn't need it. There's a reason why we don't scales Rapid Firing Techniques to characters. Unless they do it in one go and don't require massive prep time, they scales to the attack. Thus Enel scale to Raigou only with Maxim

To state my stand:

Enel's El Thor don't require massive prep time and is very casual unlike Raigou so he scales to it. Simple. Luffy harm him, thus he scales to him. And so and so. I'm pretty sure the previous comments can tell you where this ends.

 

[Damage3245]

@PlumCrayfish; the El Thor being a casual attack doesn't mean that Enel's durability scales from it. All Logia users have resistance to their elements.

 

[PlumCrayfish376]

@Damage- I don't understand that point.

So to make sure I understand, if a person that uses Fire have a resistance to Fire, then they don't scales to their attack? If a character has resistance to their method of attacking, they don't scales?

 

[Stefano4444]

And I don't think you're getting my point, apparently Enel's durability scales to the EL Thor because he made the attack with his own energy, but the Raigo clouds are also made with his energy, so nitpicking what he scales to is hiding an outlier.

The Raigo was created with the chemical vats of Ark Maxim, it doesn't come from Enel's power alone, it would be completely illogical to scale the Raigo to Enel.

On the other hand, the El Thor is an attack that Enel can produce at his own, and yes it does scale his to Durability, since his body has to be capable to withstand the amount of energy he can generate, this is just basic logic that its always applied to many cases (Frieza with his Supernova, Flash with his IMP and many more), and we had no reason to think otherwise.

And since Luffy is able to physically harm Enel, it must means that Luffy's AP/Dura scale as well and this would also put Zoro, Wiper and Sanji around at the same level, since they have been show to be physicaly comparable to Luffy.

Also, even if Zoro and Sanji were KO by a casual El Thor from Enel, they still survived the same attack which had been calculated to be Town level+, unless they durability weren't al least close to that level of power, they would had be burned or incinerated, they wouldn't have survived.

 

[Damage3245]

@Damage- I don't understand that point.
So to make sure I understand, if a person that uses Fire have a resistance to Fire, then they don't scales to their attack? If a character has resistance to their method of attacking, they don't scales?

Sort of.

I assume that the reason why you're stating he scales is because if his durability didn't match the enegy involved in his attack, then Enel would have somehow hurt himself.

But if Enel is resistant to electricity in the first place and wouldn't be harmed by it, then there's no reason to think his durability is equal to his El Thor.

 

[Aerozz]

So we are going to ignore that enel broke sea stone (as hard as dimaond) with ease?

aight cool

 

[Stefano4444]

But if Enel is resistant to electricity in the first place and wouldn't be harmed by it, then there's no reason to think his durability is equal to his El Thor.

But the amount of electricity that Enel can produce has still to be limited by his level of physical strength, Logia users still requid Stamina like other Devil Fruit users for their powers, meaning there is only a certain amount of power they can generate before overstrain themself.

Also, wouldn't Enel be resistant to electricity only in his Logia Form or when using his power to counter, like if his true physical body was hit by a powerful lightning bolt do you think he wouldn't feel any effects?

Another thing, just because someone its resistant it doesn't mean Enel is completely immune or that no amount of electricity wouldn't be able to affect him, after all Ace was be burned by Akainu since his magma was hotter than his fire.

 

[Stefano4444]

So we are going to ignore that enel broke sea stone (as hard as dimaond) with ease?

Because its not that impressive and simply irrilevant, that like Wall level to Small Building level.

Compare to Buggy the Clown or other fodders which are Large Building level+.

 

[Aerozz]

oh dam breaking dimaond isnt that impressive i thought it will be more impressive. 0.0

nvm then thanks

 

[Damage3245]

> But the amount of electricity that Enel can produce has still to be limited by his level of physical strength, Logia users still requid Stamina like other Devil Fruit users for their powers, meaning there is only a certain amount of power they can generate before overstrain themself.

This is a disputable topic. There's no indication from what I can tell that his physical strikes = his lightning strikes.

Only certain DF's have displayed a necessity for stamina for the DF powers such as the Healing fruit or Op-Op furit.

> Also, wouldn't Enel be resistant to electricity only in his Logia Form or when using his power to counter, like if his true physical body was hit by a powerful lightning bolt do you think he wouldn't feel any effects?

Enel converts his arm into lightning in the first place when he does the El Thor, so I think that counts as his "Logia form".

> Another thing, just because someone its resistant it doesn't mean Enel is completely immune or that no amount of electricity wouldn't be able to affect him, after all Ace was be burned by Akainu since his magma was hotter than his fire.

I didn't say he was completely immune to it. If electricity greater than what he could resist hit him, he'd probably be hurt.

 

[Js250476]

Shattering Diamond is often an overestimated feat Jotaro comes to mind when I say that.

 

[A-redswordtomato]

I think I laid out my points pretty clearly in the end of my last reply but;

@stefano4444; arguing that Wyper would still scale to the EL Thor is simply intentional ignorance to what's presented in the manga.

And Zoro and Sanji surviving the EL Thor doesn't say anything relevant about their durability. Regular people (like connis' Dad) also survived it.

And Damage seems to have explained why Enel's durability wouldn't necessarily scale to his attack, which is the basis of people scaling to EL Thor in the first place, if that's not accepted then the entire chain falls apart.

 

[The_Calaca]

@Redswordtomato

Enel has a literal God complex. He doesn't need to show everything he's capable of to demonstrate how far above he believes he's from everyone else. His lightning is simply superior to an unknown degree. It makes sense because that's all Enel's about. He brags his opponents and underestimates them because outside of a rubber man and the latter invention of Haki he was invincible, and nothing implies that he's referring to one thing or another. He's overall superior and that's all that matters.

The Raigo clouds are made via a chemical process where Enel only works as a battery. He's not generating such clouds (if you believe so, we should calculate those feats as well.

Luffy even has a High 7-C feat that we're not taking into account because Damage thinks it shouldn't apply to the scaling, and IIRC it's like 3x the El Thor power.

Sanji would have been able to remain more time if he weren't that badly injured from beforehand. You're still forgetting that he fought Satori and took multiple Impact Dials head-on and was initially stomped by Enel when he met him the first time. He was one-shoted but was able to remain on his feet for some seconds before fainting. The same with Wyper and Zoro, who took different attacks from Enel after having long fights against deadly opponents (with the former literally destroying his body in the process).

Conis' dad being alive is clear PIS. Just like with Pell surviving the bomb, we don't take those fake deaths as evidence of nothing. Using it as an argument to support that Enel's power doesn't kill it's a double standard unless we start scaling Pell, and subsequently Robin and the rest of the cast, to the yield of the bomb.

@Damage

Not every physical strike would be equal to his lightnings. Things like the most charged Vari techniques are clearly above that, but El Thor it's Enel's Gomu Gomu no Pistol. He spams it and suppose no effort at all.

If someone asks "then why doesn't he just smack them instead of using his powers if he's as strong as a casual lightning?" Because a punch and a lightning have not only different methods, different AoE, range and effects.

"Why don't DB characters just use his full power on CQC rather than throwing lights to each other?" Because the amount of energy required to use such a power is hardly efficient in combat. Same happens with Logias. They used their elemental attacks when Haki wasn't a thing, because they knew that being a Logia means being nigh-invincible and can take the time to use their energies in the most efficient way instead of unnecessarily going into CQC.

 

[Tetsucabrah]

What's Luffy's high 7-C feat?

 

[The_Calaca]

Him dispersing the Raigo.

 

[Damage3245]

> Not every physical strike would be equal to his lightnings. Things like the most charged Vari techniques are clearly above that, but El Thor it's Enel's Gomu Gomu no Pistol. He spams it and suppose no effort at all.

It being no effort at all doesn't mean it is equal to his striking strength.

 

[Tetsucabrah]

Why was Golden Rifle never used for scaling?

 

[Damage3245]

Why was Golden Rifle never used for scaling?

Because it isn't Luffy's ordinary AP. It'd be something that would only apply to Luffy with the Golden Ball on his arm.

 

[Tetsucabrah]

Him dispersing the Raigo.

Is there a link to said calc?

 

[The_Calaca]

There's no reason to believe Newton's 3rd Law is dismissed here. No Logia is a glass cannon and hasn't been stated as such. In fact, every Logia user has shown the ability to fight those who can harm him.

@Tetsu Here

 

[Damage3245]

Pretty sure Newton's 3rd Law primarily applies to characters physical stats most of the time. I haven't seen anything suggesting Enel needs to be durable enough to tank his own El Thor in order to attack with it.

 

[Tetsucabrah]

ty

 

[The_Calaca]

The same can be said for the opposite. There's no indication that the opposite actually takes part into the discussion.

The only argument that could work is that Burn Bazooka = GGN Bazooka, but that happened before Luffy actually fought Enel, and as we know, he grows stronger very quickly so I'm not doubting that he'd pass from being comparable to smacking Wyper in the spot.

 

[A-redswordtomato]

You're greatly stretching and bending Enel's implications here. Saying "your energy is nothing compared to mine" really, and I mean really doesn't translate into "we have comparable energy output but you can't hit me".

Unless the Maxim breaks conservation of energy and somehow expends more than what Enel provides it, then making those giant clouds is still Enel's energy output, simply chemical instead of electrical.

Sanji staying up for more time is simply an assumption on your part, I can see it happening but it's not an objective justification.

You're not getting my point, I'm saying that "surviving" an attack is hardly a feat in OP since Oda doesn't kill off characters. Unless we're going to start scaling Luffy to 6-B as well because Kaido didn't pulverize his head.

And I don't recall Enel ever "spamming" EL Thor perse.

There's also the fact that all this backscaling leads to illogical stuff like Enel's priests scaling to him.

 

[Stefano4444]

Pretty sure Newton's 3rd Law primarily applies to characters physical stats most of the time.

Newton's 3rd law is also used when dealing with energy or elemental attacks, not always (there are many verses that do not match the description) but most of the time energy/elemental attacks to scale do physical attacks.

Naruto and Bleach characters's Durability/Striking Strength don't scale to typical physical attacks.

 

[The_Calaca]

I'm just saying that Enel's not necessarily talking about the power difference in the way we understand it, but how far they are away from him because they are average fighters.

BTW, what chapter holds the statement?

Claiming for laws of physics in this manga. No author pays that much attention to that, and there comes the question again: If Enel is able to do the clouds or generate similar energy by himself, why does he need Maxim and Death Piea to do the Raigo?

It's objective. You just need to see him standing some seconds when he was already weakened from the previous encounters.

No, but we scale them to characters who don't outright one-shot them.

It's the attack he uses the most even to kill the skypieans when they do something hertic.

 

[A-redswordtomato]

Huh, well I don't think we're gonna meet eye to eye on this one then.

Chapter 275, he says that after one-shotting Robin, Gan Fall, Nola, and immediately after casually cancelling Wyper's BB. And to exactly quote him "You still don't understand? The energy you possess.. is nothing compared to mine!!". But before showcasing his intangibility to Zoro.

That's kind of ironic, your entire argument is based on claiming Newton's third law applies here and calculating the energy required to vaporize stone. And he needs the Maxim to chemically produce the lightning clouds.

Or maybe for the same reason he doesn't just use his physical strikes all the time, which are apparently just as destructive.

And there's not much difference between getting fried and staying conscious for 3 seconds, and say, for 6.

And that's not spamming.