Gecko Moria Low-Godly regen upgrade

[KingTempest]

Cool, why didn't he do it during Marineford when Doffy was kicking his ass? Or at any point during Thriller Bark?

Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence but at this point you can't say a character can do something he literally has never shown himself doing, unless you're insinuating Moria is a ******* idiot and doesn't understand how his own power works. Which, I think, is not a good assumption.

You don't know how his shit works.

Shadows don't replicate cuts. They don't replicate mouth moving. They don't replicate breathing. They don't replicate eye rolls. And they certainly don't replicate pain.
They replicate the part of the body that showcases a shadow. That's why you don't manipulate how people say words with their shadows.

His shadows don't showcase that, so a shadow coming back wouldn't heal a cut. Go outside and speak, I guarantee you the positioning of your mouth on your shadow wouldn't move a muscle unless the light faces it in the way when it's supposed to do so.

And "at any point during thriller bark" what are you talking about? The first time he fought, he didn't take any relevant damage that could be healed via that method, and the second time he was being amped by his shadows, which increased the size of his body due to the volume of shadows.

Moria didn't get any major damage done to noticeable parts of his body when Doflamingo beat his ass.

With what you're saying, Luffy would've gotten every scar on his upper body healed when his shadow returned, and the straw hats wouldn't have blood on their bodies.

Moria's not an idiot, you're just wrong about his power works.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

The last issue can be rectified depending on some confounding context, but do we have evidence of Gecko Moria being in direct contact with sunlight while his shadow is controlling Ors? It's been a long while since I read through Thriller Bark.

He built a cockpit inside Oars that he hid in to pilot him and stop them from chucking bags of salt into his mouth (in case you don't remember salt hard counters his zombies for some reason), he was always inside said cockpit until Nightmare Luffy beat the brakes off his ass and forced him to come out and use Shadows Asgard.
So no, I don't think he was in direct contact with sunlight until the very end where he stopped using his shadow for the zombies and what not.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Crab, Slayer, Damage, Deceived FRA

 

[KingTempest]

The mf was in marineford in broad daylight sending his shadow to go bully people

 

[DaMonkeMan]

The mf was in marineford in broad daylight sending his shadow to go bully people

I'm sure you're right but when??

 

[KingTempest]

I'm sure you're right but when??

 

[KingTempest]

@Ryuga21 shit looks High-Mid. You could prolly give him resistance to EE for existing w/out a shadow

 

[Crabwhale]

You don't know how his shit works.

Yeah you keep saying that any time someone disagrees with you. Might be the third or fourth time towards me specifically. I think you just respond like this to anything you don't like.

Shadows don't replicate cuts. They don't replicate mouth moving. They don't replicate breathing. They don't replicate eye rolls. And they certainly don't replicate pain.
They replicate the part of the body that showcases a shadow. That's why you don't manipulate how people say words with their shadows.

Blatantly false for several of these. Does it depends on angle? Sure, but shadows absolutely replicate how a mouth moves, or significant injuries lol

This is a nothing argument.

His shadows don't showcase, so a shadow coming back wouldn't heal a cut. Go outside and speak, I guarantee you the positioning of your mouth on your shadow wouldn't move a muscle unless the light faces it in the way when it's supposed to do so.

KT what are you trying to say here man? This isn't about body movement, this is about restoration. Two completely different things and it's not like Moria can use shadows to puppet bodies anyway so this analogy is moot.

And "at any point during thriller bark" what are you talking about? The first time he fought, he didn't take any relevant damage that could be healed via that method, and the second time he was being amped by his shadows, which increased the size of his body due to the volume of shadows.

Moria didn't get any major damage done to noticeable parts of his body when Doflamingo beat his ass.

Droplets of blood are still part of his shadow. Why isn't Doppelman just zooming them up and over to his face again? Theoretically if he has enough control over his shadow to do that, he would've, correct?

 

[DaMonkeMan]

@Ryuga21 shit looks High-Mid. You could prolly give him resistance to EE for existing w/out a shadow

Aren't DF users immune to their abilities anyway?
That alone may be enough to argue that he has regen or a type of resistance to EE

 

[LordGinSama]

Wew this blew tf up.


Gotta agree with Deceived but King does bring up some good points regarding Regeneration, although it's far from low-Godly.


Through sheer willpower they can resist losing their mind when absorbing shadows through the Kage Kage no Mi. Shadows belonging to strong willed people are difficult to control, allowing them to rebel against Moria's pact which usually immediately submits a shadow to his supremacy and orders. Spiritual energy is contained within one's soul/life; this energy is represented by the fighting power or the Haki itself. Those with strong souls, which are homologous to shadows, resist the effects of his own soul manipulation.


Shadows are accepted as being intertwined with the body and soul, so using that is probably a better justification than the one given currently.

 

[Damage3245]

I don't think it has ever been stated that Moria is subject to the rule of being distintegrated without his shadow. His shadow doesn't behave like other shadows. His shadow can split apart and alter shape, but we don't ever see Moria splitting apart or altering his own shape through his shadow.

So I'm not in favor of regeneration or resistance to existence erasure for him.

 

[LordGinSama]

I mean wouldn't all that be applicable to the Shadows themselves rather than the physical bodies?

 

[Nierre]

This thread just proves why the Kage-Kage no mi is the best fruit in OP

The potential in the fruit is crazy

 

[KingTempest]

I don't think it has ever been stated that Moria is subject to the rule of being distintegrated without his shadow. His shadow doesn't behave like other shadows. His shadow can split apart and alter shape, but we don't ever see Moria splitting apart or altering his own shape through his shadow.

So I'm not in favor of regeneration or resistance to existence erasure for him.

Did you just say that there's no proof that a character follows the regular laws of the verse

That's like saying Issho isn't bound by gravity cause he can control gravity

 

[LordGinSama]

I mean wouldn't all that be applicable to the Shadows themselves rather than the physical bodies?

^^

With this I can honestly see Moria having High regeneration with the Shadow feat, although it gets a little iffy since the soul would be effected as well given the Shadows are reflective of the soul.

 

[Ryuga21]

I wish I had time to respond to Crab and read all the controversies. I admit to having seen some straw man arguments, I'm going to church now, I'll try to answer what I can soon.

 

[Damage3245]

Did you just say that there's no proof that a character follows the regular laws of the verse

That's like saying Issho isn't bound by gravity cause he can control gravity

I'm saying that Moria's Shadow isn't normal. Unlike the regular character's shadows who can only be severed from their user by Moria cutting them off with a pair of scissors, Moria's shadow can freely detach itself and reattach itself and there's no proof that counts as it being severed from him like the others.

 

[Zeinx1]

Disagree fra

 

[eibwen]

i think kings and the OP point was ( cuz i think theres miss communication)
while this is argue to be regeneration, its will only work on damage that blows your body away
that said, minor cuts ( and things like that ) wouldnt affect the shape of the body/shadow overral, then it wouldnt work

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

This thread just proves why the Kage-Kage no mi is the best fruit in OP

The potential in the fruit is crazy

It proves you need to be deported to guantanamo bay

 

[Nierre]

It proves you need to be deported to guantanamo bay

 

[Crabwhale]

The thread is currently 3 against (Uchihaslayer, me and Damage) and 1 for (KT) in terms of staff btw.

 

[Ryuga21]

First of all this is a conclusion based on a flawed logical deduction. You are assuming the absence of shadow metaphysically erases a character from existence when in the sunlight, except there is nothing directly referring to such a thing in the Thriller Bark arc. Every time dying in the sunlight is brought up, it's always referred to by terms like "disintegration" or "melting". You're already making a leap of assumption to think that absolutely nothing is left of the physical body when the manga never uses any terms except those relating to essentially burning up in the sun, which would not warrant Low-Godly regeneration. There are also terms like "vanish" and "disappear", yes, but those in no way contradict the other instances of the burning nature of the death, which I should also point out are more numerous.

You also agree that characters disintegrate when exposed to sunlight. Your concern is not with this fact but with what this destruction is derived from. I didn't get the term EE from any dishonesty, the character profile treats this question as EE, which is why I cited the ability the way it is treated on the wikia. Could it be an error of interpretation? It can, but this is not something to be resolved here, you can make a CRT to correct this, and not create a straw man and attack me for something that I am not proposing.

Second of all, you're selectively using scans to prop up your argument. That scans of Robin saying "our existence was nearly erased"? Not there in the official translation. Says "disappear" instead, which doesn't really indicate anything.

The translations literally say the same thing.

Third of all, there's the issue of the shadows being outright incapable of regenerating a body if it's gone. Your own thread concept contradicts itself. You can't have a shadow build a body back up from nothing, because they are both extensions of each-other. Moria can't create an entirely new body with a stolen shadow, they're still tethered to the original owner, and if that owner gets burnt in the sun completely there's nothing to indicate the shadow could bring them back. Similarly, Moria can't play God and bring someone or himself back from any level of death with his power, existence erasure or otherwise. He can only reanimate bodies that are (for the most part) relatively intact.

Yes, you're right, and this doesn't contradict anything I said. Shadows still continue to regenerate if the body is partially destroyed, lol. You again created a straw man and beat him. I never proposed anything like that, it's laughable how you didn't understand my point.

Fourth of all, even if you ignore all of that, there's still the problem that Deceived pointed out in which you can't extrapolate Low-Godly from what we've got even if all your other assumptions are correct.

I think you only read Deceived's comments before posting this. I had already agreed with him on this. Lmao.

 

[Ryuga21]

1. Never shown using that application. No statements or feats. This is extrapolation from a basic statement about control that doesn't relate in any way to regen. You can shapeshift all you want, doesn't mean you can grow back the shape if the meat behind it gets cut off.

There are indeed feats, the shadows did this and Moriah can control his own shadow however he wants. Moria being able to do this is something implicit.

2. The only damage shown to be reversed via shadow is one being actively caused by shadow absence. This is the very definition of a special circumstance.

It was circumstantial in the scene in fact, but the absence of the shadow only causes the body to evaporate, the point you fail to understand is that Moria has free control over his shadow. He has already been shown to abuse this shadow-body interaction rule when controlling Oars.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Can not believe I'm saying this
But agree FRA

 

[Ryuga21]

@Ryuga21 shit looks High-Mid. You could prolly give him resistance to EE for existing w/out a shadow

I already proposed this, I gave up on low-godly a long time ago but my opponents don't know how to read.

 

[Ryuga21]

I don't think it has ever been stated that Moria is subject to the rule of being distintegrated without his shadow. His shadow doesn't behave like other shadows. His shadow can split apart and alter shape, but we don't ever see Moria splitting apart or altering his own shape through his shadow.

So I'm not in favor of regeneration or resistance to existence erasure for him.

Moria's shadow shouldn't be different from the others, he can only manipulate it. But I'll give you an explanation — When Moria manipulated Oars, only Oars was distorted, Moria was not, and this was because he had animated his own shadow and made it independent. This rule only applies when the shadow is naturally connected to the user.

When Moria took Luffy's shadow in his hand, the shadow struggled and made countless affections, at that moment Luffy was passed out and his body did not "follow" the shadow because they were disconnected.

 

[Ryuga21]

Moria is not fully connected to his shadow 100% of the time, obviously he would need to be to be able to access the regeneration I am proposing (Not necessarily the EE resistance).

 

[Ryuga21]

In fact, as much as I don't want to defend this with all my strength, I believe there are reasons to believe that the consequence of reaching the sun without a shadow is actually EE. If the body and the shadow must always take the same form, and the shadow is reflected in the body upon contact with light, it is deducible that the body takes the form of the "nothing" that now replaces the shadow.

However, I understand that Oda did not delve into the direct explanation of this and why this only necessarily happens with sunlight. So I'm just giving my perspective.

 

[Crabwhale]

You also agree that characters disintegrate when exposed to sunlight. Your concern is not with this fact but with what this destruction is derived from. I didn't get the term EE from any dishonesty, the character profile treats this question as EE, which is why I cited the ability the way it is treated on the wikia. Could it be an error of interpretation? It can, but this is not something to be resolved here, you can make a CRT to correct this, and not create a straw man and attack me for something that I am not proposing.

I indeed admitted this under that comment. And I will make the thread, I assure you.

The translations literally say the same thing.

They do not. Vanish as a word despite being a possible synonym for erase is frequently more open to interpretation.

Furthermore the other scans you provided were from the Viz translation, so using that one scan is weird.

Yes, you're right, and this doesn't contradict anything I said. Shadows still continue to regenerate if the body is partially destroyed, lol. You again created a straw man and beat him. I never proposed anything like that, it's laughable how you didn't understand my point.

How is it a strawman when you literally want the ability to regenerate from that added to Moria? Is that not the entire purpose of the thread?

I think you only read Deceived's comments before posting this. I had already agreed with him on this. Lmao.

I did actually read both your comment chains. You were still going back and forth when I wrote my original response.

There are indeed feats, the shadows did this and Moriah can control his own shadow however he wants. Moria being able to do this is something implicit.

Moria has absolutely no feats of using that feature of shadow manipulation actively, so he doesn't get it. Which actually brings me to...

It was circumstantial in the scene in fact, but the absence of the shadow only causes the body to evaporate, the point you fail to understand is that Moria has free control over his shadow. He has already been shown to abuse this shadow-body interaction rule when controlling Oars.

Then I ask to you the same thing I asked of KT: why is he not using Doppelman in his interaction with Doflamingo? You can see droplets of blood fall from his face. Droplets of blood that he has full control over, as they too fall under the purview of his body and actually change his silhouette in a measureable way. Yet he's still letting himself bleed.

This is neither Low-Godly nor is it regeneration at all. This is a caveat of Moria's powers, as Deceived said. And that's my last word on the matter.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

I indeed admitted this under that comment. And I will make the thread, I assure you.

They do not. Vanish as a word despite being a possible synonym for erase is frequently more open to interpretation.

Furthermore the other scans you provided were from the Viz translation, so using that one scan is weird.

How is it a strawman when you literally want the ability to regenerate from that added to Moria? Is that not the entire purpose of the thread?

I did actually read both your comment chains. You were still going back and forth when I wrote my original response.

Moria has absolutely no feats of using that feature of shadow manipulation actively, so he doesn't get it. Which actually brings me to...

Then I ask to you the same thing I asked of KT: why is he not using Doppelman in his interaction with Doflamingo? You can see droplets of blood fall from his face. Droplets of blood that he has full control over, as they too fall under the purview of his body and actually change his silhouette in a measureable way. Yet he's still letting himself bleed.

This is neither Low-Godly nor is it regeneration at all. This is a caveat of Moria's powers, as Deceived said. And that's my last word on the matter.

Tbf, doesn’t Doffy have Haki?
Which negates abilities like that?

 

[Qawsedf234]

So reading the thread, I'm with Crabwhale here. To quote our EE page:

Existence Erasure is the simple power to remove something from existence, leaving nothing behind, a level of destruction beyond incineration, vaporization, and atomization. Rather than just reducing something to its constituent parts, this ability leaves absolutely nothing behind. Powerful enough uses of this ability can even erase the mind and soul, if not more fundamental aspects of one's existence, such as concepts.

There's no indication that the people without shadows were destroyed at the fundamental level.

For Low-Godly this looks like a weird interaction with a shadow and person destroyed without a shadow, rather than actual regeneration. It would be more like a weird form of resurrection if anything, especially since it's not combat applicable.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

So reading the thread, I'm with Crabwhale here. To quote our EE page:

There's no indication that the people without shadows were destroyed at the fundamental level.

For Low-Godly this looks like a weird interaction with a shadow and person destroyed without a shadow, rather than actual regeneration. It would be more like a weird form of resurrection if anything, especially since it's not combat applicable.

Upon hearing this I'm just switching to neutral.
It does seem Moria resists the detriments of his powers that others haven't in Thriller Bark, but come to think of it qawdesf is right that we don't know if they were destroyed both body and soul.

 

[Rez]

So reading the thread, I'm with Crabwhale here. To quote our EE page:

There's no indication that the people without shadows were destroyed at the fundamental level.

For Low-Godly this looks like a weird interaction with a shadow and person destroyed without a shadow, rather than actual regeneration. It would be more like a weird form of resurrection if anything, especially since it's not combat applicable.

Yeah Robin calls it some form of resurrection as well.

Also I believe the whole shadow stuff should not be treated as existence erasure at all since it has been multiple times the shadowless individual gets disintegrated and is only referred to as erasure once by Robin also visually it looks more like disintegration as well.

 

[KingTempest]

"Our existence was on the verge of disappearing"

 

[Qawsedf234]

"Our existence was on the verge of disappearing"

While showing them turning to dust

 

[Deceived3596]

While I don't find Existence Erasure for Gecko Moira all that convincing, we shouldn't delve into it in this thread as it's currently accepted that he does have Existence Erasure. Debating its legitimacy here is ultimately pointless because the CRT isn't discussing the veracity of Gecko Moria's Existence Erasure. We're kinda just derailing the original purpose of this thread.

 

[CloverDragon03]

While showing them turning to dust

This really isn't a good counterpoint at all imo when Robin's very own statement is blatantly indicating Existence Erasure. It's also derailing the thread to go into that atm since that's what's accepted currently. Contesting Existence Erasure is better kept for its own thread

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

While showing them turning to dust

Well we can’t really see past dust, so that’s not exactly an anti feat in a vacuum.

 

[Kachon123]

While showing them turning to dust

This is a wild double standard.