One Piece Chapter 1069: "All things are brought into this world with hope" (Official Translation)

[DaMonkeMan]

At the end of the day it's pre conceived notions at play. Your preconceived notion is that he should be YC3 or 2 level, my pre conceived notions was that I hoped that he was above the scabbards at his strongest.

Literally agreeing with me then.

How do you know that they're not on that level? I'm not gonna say they are, but how do you know for certain that Luffy wasn't outputting those levels of power? You can't, you're just assuming that he isn't just as much as I may assume that he is.

But I'll stop here too.

I don't know what you want me to tell you? It's literally just a simple Armament clash. A bit like Luffy kicking Doffy's leg with Armament.

I doubt that Lucci is High 6-A not gonna lie.

I dont see Jack, Cracker, Or anyone who u guys call “3rd YC Lvl” which is a headcannon powerscaling title to give off clashing with G5 Luffy using Busoshoku Haki. Lucci’s just that guy

Does Jack even have Haki? Legitimate question, I don't recall him having it.

 

[Eseseso]

I was honestly hoping for Scabbard level Lucci before this chapter came out.

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

Literally agreeing with me then.

Yes, but I'm open to the idea of him being above my preconceived notion and am cool with it. I'm not sticking hard to my idea.

I don't know what you want me to tell you? It's literally just a simple Armament clash. A bit like Luffy kicking Doffy's leg with Armament.

An armament clash in their awakened forms in which they're both equally pushed away.

Does Jack even have Haki? Legitimate question, I don't recall him having it.

I think the vivre cards say he has Haki, but that's it.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

I'm kinda done with Lucci now. He didn't really have the chance to get any good feats and now he's probably just gonna get stomped by G5 Luffy. I'm going to invest in Kizaru stocks now. Maybe he'll fight Zoro?

An armament clash in their awakened forms in which they're both equally pushed away.

G5 doesn't automatically strengthen him, as I said before.
But yeah, I'm done talking about Lucci lol. He had a chance and he blew it. No more expectations about him or talking about him.
I hope Sentomaru will run it back with him though.

 

[RoronoaxRobin]

At the end of the day, we just need to know where normal Gear 5th Luffy and Gear 5th Luffy w/ Buso Koka scale to.

That's true, but Luffy said that Gear 5th was the pinnacle of what he can do. So shouldn't both Normal Gear 5th Luffy and Gear 5th Luffy w/ Buso Koka at least scale above anything he was doing against Kaido in Base and all his lower Gears?

 

[RoronoaxRobin]

Jack has both Busoshoku and Kenbunshoku Haki accoridng to the Vivre Cards, he just doesn't have any feats with either of them. For some strange reason.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

That's true, but Luffy said that Gear 5th was the pinnacle of what he can do. So shouldn't both Normal Gear 5th Luffy and Gear 5th Luffy w/ Buso Koka at least scale above anything he was doing against Kaido in Base and all his lower Gears?

Eh..
I think he said this because of the raw power and joy he felt from the form.
It's the pinnacle because he has Transmutation and Bajrang Gun, among other things.
Basically I think it is better than normal Luffy and his other Gears but only when he's actually using the gear to power him self up like when he made his arms stronger to lift Kaidou and whoop him.

 

[RoronoaxRobin]

Eh..
I think he said this because of the raw power and joy he felt from the form.
It's the pinnacle because he has Transmutation and Bajrang Gun, among other things.
Basically I think it is better than normal Luffy and his other Gears but only when he's actually using the gear to power him self up like when he made his arms stronger to lift Kaidou and whoop him.

But how is Luffy not powering his self up while in Gear 5th when he amps himself with Buso?

 

[DaMonkeMan]

But how is Luffy not powering his self up while in Gear 5th when he amps himself with Buso?

He can do that in Base and it'd be the same? Reread what I said.

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

If we go by profiles, then Luffy is High 6-A in Gear 5th no matter what, even his base is scaled like that, but profiles are subject to change so I won't use it like definitive proof.

What we know from the clash is that Luffy ***** back his fist (which means that he's putting more force into it then just simply throwing a punch like with Bellamy), he's in Gear 5th, and he's coating it with armament. That's all.

If we for some reason say Luffy is only outputting 6-C levels of strength in the clash, then we should note down in the key that he still has 6-C AP in certain forms.

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

Actually, we can use Film Red since while the events aren't canon, everything else is (like the power).

Luffy willingly transforms into Gear 5th against Tot Musica even though he was in Gear 4th before when him and Shanks decide to use an all out final blow, heavily implying that Gear 5th > Gear 4th.

So base Gear 5th should be above Gear 4th.

 

[Chianli]

Actually, we can use Film Red since while the events aren't canon, everything else is (like the power).

Luffy willingly transforms into Gear 5th against Tot Musica even though he was in Gear 4th before when him and Shanks decide to use an all out final blow, heavily implying that Gear 5th > Gear 4th.

So base Gear 5th should be above Gear 4th.

watch as monkeyman would try desperately deny it because it was in the movie

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

Spoiler

To go further than that, when Luffy uses Gear 5th in the movie, he's not using any of it's special properties like size manipulation and transmutation, he's only using compression, armament Haki, and Conqueror's Coating, all stuff that Gear 4th can easily do. So if Gear 5th by itself offers no amp, then wouldn't that mean that Luffy is willingly weakening himself even though him and Shanks are doing a final all out assault?

Using logic itself, this flat out shows that Gear 5th + compression + armament Haki + Conqueror's Coating is > Gear 4th + compression + armament Haki + conqueror's coating. Which would translate to Gear 5th > Gear 4th, which even before obtaining Conquerors coating is still High 6-A. [/ISPOILER]

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Actually, we can use Film Red since while the events aren't canon, everything else is (like the power).

Luffy willingly transforms into Gear 5th against Tot Musica even though he was in Gear 4th before when him and Shanks decide to use an all out final blow, heavily implying that Gear 5th > Gear 4th.

So base Gear 5th should be above Gear 4th.

Never tried to deny that Gear 5th > Gear 4th.
Also Luffy was very likely using Haki there.

watch as monkeyman would try desperately deny it because it was in the movie

No need to be snarky..

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

Never tried to deny that Gear 5th > Gear 4th.
Also Luffy was very likely using Haki there.

Read my second reply.

No need to be snarky..

Yeah that was a bit much.

 

[RoronoaxRobin]

He can do that in Base and it'd be the same? Reread what I said.

My point is Buso Gear 5th Luffy is stronger than Normal Gear 5th Luffy and that would also be better than his Base and other Gears.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Spoiler

To go further than that, when Luffy uses Gear 5th in the movie, he's not using any of it's special properties like size manipulation and transmutation, he's only using compression, armament Haki, and Conqueror's Coating, all stuff that Gear 4th can easily do. So if Gear 5th by itself offers no amp, then wouldn't that mean that Luffy is willingly weakening himself even though him and Shanks are doing a final all out assault?

Using logic itself, this flat out shows that Gear 5th + compression + armament Haki + Conqueror's Coating is > Gear 4th + compression + armament Haki + conqueror's coating. Which would translate to Gear 5th > Gear 4th, which even before obtaining Conquerors coating is still High 6-A. [/ISPOILER]

Spoiler: SPOILER

I mean yeah, obviously it'd be on that level if it's Advanced Haki mixed with his fruit, lol.
But I still don't think that him using a basic Armament punch was on that level.

 

[RoronoaxRobin]

Spoiler

To go further than that, when Luffy uses Gear 5th in the movie, he's not using any of it's special properties like size manipulation and transmutation, he's only using compression, armament Haki, and Conqueror's Coating, all stuff that Gear 4th can easily do. So if Gear 5th by itself offers no amp, then wouldn't that mean that Luffy is willingly weakening himself even though him and Shanks are doing a final all out assault?

Using logic itself, this flat out shows that Gear 5th + compression + armament Haki + Conqueror's Coating is > Gear 4th + compression + armament Haki + conqueror's coating. Which would translate to Gear 5th > Gear 4th, which even before obtaining Conquerors coating is still High 6-A. [/ISPOILER]

Where this comes from? The Film Red spoiler thread?

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

Spoiler: SPOILER

I mean yeah, obviously it'd be on that level if it's Advanced Haki mixed with his fruit, lol.
But I still don't think that him using a basic Armament punch was on that level.

Spoiler

Then why did he transform mid attack if it does nothing for him hmm? Base Gear 5th with Armament is still > base Gear 4th which is rated as High 6-A for being able to hurt Zoan Kaido.

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

Where this comes from? The Film Red spoiler thread?

I've watched the movie. Which basically confirms Gear 5th > Gear 4th.

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

Spoiler

Gear 5th going off of the movie flat out is an amp above base, more specifically, a bigger amp than Gear 4th basically.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Spoiler

Then why did he transform mid attack if it does nothing for him hmm? Base Gear 5th with Armament is still > base Gear 4th which is rated as High 6-A for being able to hurt Zoan Kaido.

Spoiler: SPOILER

To strengthen himself. We don't even see the full attack iirc, btw.

 

[RoronoaxRobin]

I've watched the movie. Which basically confirms Gear 5th > Gear 4th.

Oh, okay.

And I thought the Gear 5th > Gear 4th part was obvious even in the manga

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

Spoiler: SPOILER

To strengthen himself. We don't even see the full attack iirc, btw.

Spoiler

Yes we do, we see him coat his fist in armament and conqueror's, use Gear 4th style compression, and then just shoot his fist forward. He doesn't use size manip and transmutation, which you were arguing were the only benefits of going Gear 5th, even though it also amps stats as well. My whole argument is that Gear 5th with armament scales > Gear 4th, which scales to High 6-A with basic Armament and no conqueror's for being able to harm dragon Kaido in the supernova fight.

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

Oh, okay.

And I thought the Gear 5th > Gear 4th part was obvious even in the manga

Monke was arguing before that Gear 5th provided no stat amps to base.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Spoiler

Yes we do, we see him coat his fist in armament and conqueror's, use Gear 4th style compression, and then just shoot his fist forward. He doesn't use size manip and transmutation, which you were arguing were the only benefits of going Gear 5th, even though it also amps stats as well. My whole argument is that Gear 5th with armament scales > Gear 4th, which scales to High 6-A with basic Armament and no conqueror's for being able to harm dragon Kaido in the supernova fight.

My whole point is that him using basic Armament with G5 doesn't automatically make it High 6-A.

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

My whole point is that him using basic Armament with G5 doesn't automatically make it High 6-A.

It would since it would make him above G4 with basic armament, which scales to High 6-A.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

It would since it would make him above G4 with basic armament, which scales to High 6-A.

I guess? I mean, it'd probably depend on which G4 attack we're talking about. G5 without any of the amps ( like Gigant ) probably doesn't scale above all of G4.

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

I guess? I mean, it'd probably depend on which G4 attack we're talking about. G5 without any of the amps ( like Gigant ) probably doesn't scale above all of G4.

Of course I'm not gonna argue for Gear 5th basic punch being > King Kong Gun or something like that.

Now that I think about it, since Gear 4th is High 6-A through compression attacks (which are 4x above basic punches) maybe Gear 5th basic armament punch can scale to 1/4th of the High 6-A value for being above a Gear 4th punch which is 1/4th as strong as a compression attack. At least I think that's the multiplier...

 

[Eseseso]

Of course I'm not gonna argue for Gear 5th basic punch being > King Kong Gun or something like that.

Now that I think about it, since Gear 4th is High 6-A through compression attacks (which are 4x above basic punches) maybe Gear 5th basic armament punch can scale to 1/4th of the High 6-A value for being above a Gear 4th punch which is 1/4th as strong as a compression attack. At least I think that's the multiplier...

No, since Base, G2, and G3 Luffy already scale to the High 6-A value as well.

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

Basically my argument is that (don't take the number literally lol):

Gear 4th would be (10+10+50)x4 (Form + armament + conqueror's coating x compression) while Gear 5th would be (12+10+50)x4 (Form + armament + conqueror's coating x compression).

So if base Gear 4th's High 6-A value is (10+10)x4 (form + armament x compression)=80
Then the Gear 5th armament punch would be 12+10 (form + armament)= 22 which would be above 20 (a normal non compressed punch from Gear 4th), which would be 1/4th of a compressed punch which is High 6-A.

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

No, since Base, G2, and G3 Luffy already scale to the High 6-A value as well.

Isn't the profile fusing Conqueror's Coating with the gears in the post conqueror's key?

I'm still a little upset the profile was done like that since now it'll be hard to judge where he's at.

 

[Eseseso]

Isn't the profile fusing Conqueror's Coating with the gears in the post conqueror's key?

I'm still a little upset the profile was done like that since now it'll be hard to judge where he's at.

Without Hao, Round 2 Luffy hurt Kaido twice with regular Buso (once in base and once with G3).

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

I guess? I mean, it'd probably depend on which G4 attack we're talking about. G5 without any of the amps ( like Gigant ) probably doesn't scale above all of G4.

Also, sorry if I was getting heated. This isn't a serious situation and it's my bad for taking it too seriously.

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

Without Hao, Round 2 Luffy hurt Kaido twice with regular Buso (once in base and once with G3).

Seriously? Can you send scans?

 

[Eseseso]

Seriously? Can you send scans?

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/916173408813854751/1049841802762518608/1026-006.png?width=449&height=655

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/916173408813854751/1049841802762518608/1026-006.png?width=449&height=655

That second scan is with Buso Emission, but the first one seems legit, but to make sure, was Kaido actually hurt, or was he just pushed back?

 

[Eseseso]

That second scan is with Buso Emission, but the first one seems legit, but to make sure, was Kaido actually hurt, or was he just pushed back?

The second scan using only Buso emission mean's it's AP for Luffy, since there is a difference between Buso emission and internal destruction.

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

The second scan using only Buso emission mean's it's AP for Luffy, since there is a difference between Buso emission and internal destruction.

I know, but we don't scale Buso Emission = to Buso Koka iirc.

 

[RoyGundam]

Just noticed that during the actual Buso punch collision between G5 and Awakened Lucci, they both sent each other flying back into a wall right afterwards, so neither one overpowered the other.

It's a callback to their Enies Lobby fight where something similar happened