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On the matter of Devil May Cry: Top Tiers justification

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I wouldn't say Mundus being able to create a universe is an outlier, since Mundus is the most powerful demon in the series with the possible exception of Argosax. That's why he's referred to as the god of the underworld, and why he's the only demon Dante wasn't able to actually kill. Mundus being vastly more powerful than the other demons isn't an outlier, because he's meant to be vastly more powerful than the other demons.

And the outlier page on this wiki says:

"all effort should be made to try to reconcile outliers with other canon information, and only the most extreme examples should be classed as completely unusable"

And while I have never watched MLP, it really sounds like that feat by Celestia may not be an outlier either, and even if it is effort should be made to reconcile it. But if there is evidence actually demonstrating her to be weaker than that like say hundreds of scenes where she or a pony demonstrated to be stronger than her struggles to perform far lesser feats or loses to something which is confirmed weaker than that, etc., that seems like what might make feats outliers. As I say I don't know MLP, but DMC doesn't have any scenes that really contradict that feat. Dante seeming weaker than that when he normally fights could possibly be called an inconsistency, but the inconsistency page says:

"In fiction, an inconsistency is when a character has an occurrence usually regarding power that differs from the norm. An inconsistency can work both ways, being either a low showing or a high showing. Generally, inconsistencies should not be accepted unless there is a good reason for it (such as a character who usually holds back on his or her full power)"

This could be applied to both Dante and Mundus, in truth, because they both usually hold back and only brought out their true power in that scene. And it's hard to call it an inconsistency anyway because Dante always casually defeats his enemies despite holding back.
 
Well, extreme outliers that completely contradict all combat feats of a certain series can be counted as specific hax abilities.

I have no opinion regarding this thread, but I have watched all episodes of MLPFIM, and the problem is that every single combat feat is of an enormously lower scale, and the ponies are regularly straining against problems that they could solve with no effort, if they could blow up stars. For example, Celestia and Luna were unable to disperse a snow storm on their own.

I do not remember the discussion the way that Aparajita described it however.

In any case, that is a topic for a different thread.
 
@Ant Apologies if I am missing something, as I don't watch MLP, but couldn't those examples just be a case of Attack Potency and Area of Effect? I mean how many times do we see Dragon Ball characters strain against attacks that at most destroy a city block?

EDIT: Well I am not sure about the snow storm situation. (However if these characters perform Star level feats daily for over 1000 years I'd think the snow storm would be the outlier not the constant star feats) But I was saying these "combat feats" being of an enormously lower scale just seems like AoE that we discard for all other series.
 
I agree. Talking about MLP feats here would just mess everything up. I also don't know anything about MLP, so all I can say is what I just said and what you just said. And yeah that sounds like it might be an outlier. I'll shut up about MLP now; I'm knowledgeable about DMC and quite a lot of other series but I have no contributions to make to MLP.

My point was that in DMC there actually aren't any scenes that really contradict the universal creation feat. Just because Dante isn't shattering the universe with every swing of his sword doesn't make an outlier of Mundus creating a universe, especially since Dante REALLY holds back on his full power and yet still stomps his enemies.
 
@Ant

That's mostly an issue of AoE than anything, there are plenty of other feats aside from the obvious Sun Telekinesis.

In the comic series, Celestia turns a guy into a Constellation.
 
Whoa, let's not let this escalate. We shouldn't make this discussion about MLP. As Antvasima said it doesn't belong here. I can see both sides of the discussion based on what you've both said, but MLP is best discussed somewhere else.
 
@Ryukama & Matthew Well, I suppose that an upgrade may be in order then. However it creates massive inconsistencies. Also, you will have to start another content revision thread about it first.

Anyway, let's return to the issue of Dante and Mundus.
 
Ok, I'm back. Were there any more questions to be asked before making the changes? This may be a good time to address not only the universe creation and altering feats, but also Sparda's sealing the Demon World itself. Did I make that point sufficiently clear?
 
"But keep in mind we the audience learn of the Hell Gates years after the Manga was published"

I don't see how this changes anything, the inclusion of these Hell Gates gives insight on how Mundus was planning to "merge" worlds; how Sparda was going to seal it.
 
@AMM

I was implying that the manga's original intent was that Mundus was actually physically merging the two worlds since Hell Gates weren't a thing in canon at the time of the manga's release. These two scans are what gave me that impression. But I am willing to concede on this issue since it doesn't really change anything; it isn't as if Mundus was directly stated to be merging the actual time continuums.

Sparda sealed the whole Demon World before sealing the Temen Ni Gru (which we know was built after Sparda's rebellion) and the Hell Gates regardless; we know this because we know Mundus can cross into other universes (see the last phase of the fight, as my third and fourth blogs), Nightmare can, Trish and Dante can with the Perfect Amulet, and numerous enemy types thoughout the series can; but all of this (sans those who use the Perfect Amulet effectively) is only possible when there has been some trickery from within the Human World. These guys can cross universes without the use of Hell Gates and the like, but only if Sparda's seal is weakened.

EDIT: My blog used a Sargasso as an example of an enemy type that can cross universes, but there are others from other games. The only citations I can use are entire stategy guides on GameFAQs and screenshots if I emulate the games at 40FPS tops, but I can provide those sources if they are needed.
 
Yeah. Mundus did get into the human world, in a weakened state and with his bare hands. I don't think he needed to weaken Sparda's seal, but then again. If he did that it begs the following question: If Mundus just ripped open a portal to the human world in that state, what stopped him from doing so earlier?

If you want to link citations use the Bradygames strategy guide or the DMC Wikia, they have word-for-word in-game descriptions on the enemies from files in the game.
 
Well there was a gate to the Demon World on Mallet Island, although Mundus clearly made his own portal to get through, but the castellans had worshipped Mundus meaning they'd meddled, and plus Dante himself had travelled to the Demon World there already. That might be relevant. It's possible Dante himself weakened Sparda's seal in that area without meaning to.
 
@AMM

Exactly, you see! Mundus only started being a problem when those humans contacted him on Malay Island, after which he had Sparda killed. We see him send astral projections of himself, but they never leave Dumary Island. He enters and exits his pocket universe at will, but he just can't really stretch his legs outside of the Demon World until Dante shows up with the Perfect Amulet. Besides, we know that Sparda sealed the Demon World form the start of the series; a misconception has been formed because people thought he just sealed the Temen Ni Gru (which was built by humans a long time after Sparda sealed the Demon World) and the Hell Gates (which were not introduced to the series at that time).

Good news, thank you! I put a source for DMC1 enemy files in my blogs when I first published them, but now I have those sources from the other two games at my disposal to show as well.

@Antvasima

By the way, do you see why I had to made those blogs so long now? There was much to discuss, and I wanted people to have an easy way of accessing pertinent information. I'll be updating those blogs as necessary. If you or anyone else think there is anything necessary to add to the blogs, please feel free and welcome to let me know!
 
Freeman, I'm looking at the official Bradygames Guide now and it seems to support your claims.

On the page dedicated to the Sparda sword it says:

"the actual blade used to defeat the Emperor of the Dark and prevent the entrance of the Underworld into our realm"

And the section on Mundus says:

"the overlord planned to break through the thin veil seperating the Underworld from the human world, uniting the land of eternal darkness with the world of light"

And also says,

"the Emperor of the Dark must be stopped in his attempt to take over the universe"

It also calls him a god almost every time it refers to him, which is worth noting.
 
In the manga, it is also stated by Arkham that a demon's name is related to their abilities. For example, Agni and Rudra being related to wind and fire. Mundus' name meaning the universe; having a feat which includes creating a universe is no coincidence; consistent with material created after DMC1's release, funnily enough.

That aside, I'm cool with 3-A Mundus for reasons aforementioned on the downgrade thread.
 
Mundus being 3-A is fairly okay, even if bizarrely above everything else in the Verse. While the demon's name representing his power doesn't mean much, Kamiya did mention that Mundus means universe and that he wanted the player to feel like fighting God in an interview.
 
@All

Thank you all for your input! I am glad we got to see some intelligent skepticism from Matt as well. So, how about this for Argosax, Dante's relevant tabs, Mundus, and Sparda:

"At the very least 3-A, likely much higher."

This would best reflect the certainties and uncertainties of the matter without making any undue assumptions on the profiles. I am willing to answer any questions on the matter, including ones from those unsure why we are cautious to attribute 4-D power to the top tiers. I will open a thread on my wall for any minor questions. I will also continue to update my blogs, using the proper channels to request certain additions to profiles. Thank you all for your intelligent and civil input!
 
It seems like we have a lot more than one Twitter statement to support Mundus having created a universe in that feat now. And it's starting to appear like that was clearly the intent of the scene.

I'm fine with Mundus being rated as straight up 3-A. Didn't Dante gain a new transformation to fight him though? So should he be rated as the same?
 
Ryukama said:
I'm fine with Mundus being rated as straight up 3-A. Didn't Dante gain a new transformation to fight him though? So should he be rated as the same?
Click to expand...
He did, the transformation was essentially him borrowing his father's power; later on in the series (DMC2), it's implied he surpassed it.
 
@AMM Alright.

If this gets accepted, do you mind gathering all of you and Freeman's points along with the other WoG statements to add to the profile please. That way we won't get as much questioning or as high of a shitstorm in regards. And the profiles would be well and thoroughly elaborated for readers.
 
Dante's base form in DMC2 is at least 3-A. He defeated Bolverk, who fought on equal footing with Sparda, twice. Dante also made an absolute fool out of Argosax, who is at least 3-A for fusing the two universes together after an incomplete ritual. Dante, despite actively restraining himself, handles every fair problem in the game with ease, and his Majin form is unfathomably more powerful, killing any given boss in gameplay with only a few hits while being invincible himself. You can see my second blog for more details.
 
@Ryukama

I also have a blog series that could be useful for the verse page. It explains all the proverbial ins and outs of the verse, so I hope it may reduce the number of unfounded claims against the series and give the staff here some peace. It is a work-in-progress, meaning I intend to give pretty much everything citations.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Follow_Doctor_Freeman/Guide_to_The_DMC-Verse:_Nexus

I intend to change some profiles in other regards, but I will be sure to use the proper channels and provide citations and sensible counterarguements.
 
The demon name on its own isn't much. However I believe it'll be sufficient as additional support to everything else.
 
The demon name is a tremendous NLF, tho, and a bad reasoning. We should use the actual feats,rather than him being named world.
 
@AMM

I concur with Matt. It would be best use the links to the screenshots and scans I uploaded. I'll be sure to get screenshots of better quality later. Guys, the framerate for the emulator when down to 17FPS in combat with the audio turned off! For a game designed for 60FPS! My computer is but a block of plastic with wires in it! Oh, the inhumanity! What first-world crises I have! jk
 
@Matt That isn't what NLF is. Even if you think it's faulty reasoning, it wouldn't be a NLF.

For demons, their names are directly related to the powers they posess. If Mundus has a universe creating feat and has been referred to as having such power on multiple occasions, then his name being universe helps further support that's his power I believe.

It's like if some guy creates a fire storm, has multiple WoG statements that he created a fire storm. He belongs to a species in which their names are what their powers are. And the guy's name is Firestorm. Then saying that to assume the name has something to do with his fire storm powers is a "NLF."

Of course if Mundus had no feats and no statements besides his name, then we shouldn't at all use it. But with everything else he has as well, using this is a lot more reasonable in my opinion.
 
By the way, that thing with the names being sealed is weird and may merit a little thread of its own later. I don't think there's too much to the nature of these things, but if it is discussed within the next few days as opposed to waiting for someone to potentially exaggerate it, it won't be a problem later. I would appreciate it if everyone, especially AMM, Helper, and Matt, kept their ears to the ground on this and other discussions about unorthodox aspects of the verse.
 
@Ryu

I agree that the name serves as secundary evidence, but I find it kinda random to put it on the AP since it doesn't serve as extra evidence when we have much more solid feats.
 
@Ryukama

It should be great for the blogs, but potential troublemakers may try to warp that to say we determine facts based on names alone. Let us at least couple the pictures with that reasoning.
 
@Matt It's just to fill the page with extra justification. I don't think that being added there with all the other more solid points being prioritized on the page has that much harm. But that doesn't matter much.
 
"The demon name is a tremendous NLF, and it's bad reasoning"

No, it is not; how? It's meant to add some information which supports the feat and the statement in question and it does quite well at doing so.

I'd like to add more on the explanation, but I'm unable to find any PDF copies of that Bradygames strategy guide thing. So I can't provide anymore screenshots.
 
It is a NLF because it's just that, a name. Mundus can be 3-A because of his feats. A demon's nake "representing their power" means nothing if they don't actually have the feats to support it. If Mundus didn't have his Universal feats, his name meaning "World" would mean shit.

It's not a good thing to add to the Attack Potency.
 
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