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That is also in the works.
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Not yet, Sparkle, not yet....(Naruto: Part I Speed Revision)
- Thread starter UchihaSlayer96
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Godernet
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coming soon along with Teen Obito
MinatoSparkle
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Agree with a lot of stuff, and am particularly fond of the appreciation for Shunshin being faster than regular combat speed. That being said, it of course wouldn't be a proper MinatoSparkle response without me inciting a bible war 
I have issues with saying KM0 Naruto is MHS+, as Kakashi is noted to be rusty early on in the series, and had to retrain his body to even get to the level he was at prior to the series, letalone in P2. His databook stats (which we know are a chart for personal growth, even if they aren't necessarily valid when comparing to other characters) also support the notion that he got faster, as his speed stat went from a 4 (and he's also noted as having room to improve next to his stats) to a 4.5. This obviously applies to Kakashi as well, who I don't think should be scaling to his P2 self, at least not in the Land of Waves.
CE Finals Naruto has a pretty good feat, though it's a little hard to draw a definitive conclusion on it. When he launches himself at Neji after dispelling his clone, Neji is shocked and doesn't seem to physically react, only being able to cover himself with chakra to stop the punch from doing damage. I wouldn't call him relative to Neji of course, but I think there's a case to be made for him possibly downscaling from Neji (not from MHS though). More on Neji later, cause I think he's being highballed.
I think this is a good scan to add to justify VOTE KM0 Naruto>LoW KM0 Naruto rather than just assuming it.
CE Finals Naruto has a pretty good feat, though it's a little hard to draw a definitive conclusion on it. When he launches himself at Neji after dispelling his clone, Neji is shocked and doesn't seem to physically react, only being able to cover himself with chakra to stop the punch from doing damage. I wouldn't call him relative to Neji of course, but I think there's a case to be made for him possibly downscaling from Neji (not from MHS though). More on Neji later, cause I think he's being highballed.
I think this is a good scan to add to justify VOTE KM0 Naruto>LoW KM0 Naruto rather than just assuming it.
3T Sasuke doesn't just scale to KM0 Naruto in reaction speed, he scales in combat speed too, considering he didn't just dodge Naruto, he repeatedly counterattacked and tagged him.
I find 1T Naruto~CM2 Chidori Sasuke in speed a little iffy since Sasuke didn't run to build up speed and seemed to more be flying.
Is the Sharingan in general not being treated as a combat speed amp anymore? I didn't see higher with the Sharingan anywhere other than for reaction speed.
I find 1T Naruto~CM2 Chidori Sasuke in speed a little iffy since Sasuke didn't run to build up speed and seemed to more be flying.
Is the Sharingan in general not being treated as a combat speed amp anymore? I didn't see higher with the Sharingan anywhere other than for reaction speed.
Weighted 1st Gate Lee being Supersonic+ is kinda iffy since after experiencing the Front Lotus, Dosu then said that Lee's fast, but his attacks are faster than sound (and actually just says his attacks are as fast as sound in the raws: 君の技が高速なら-/ボク達の技は音速だ), implying Lee is not at that level.
SRA Lee should definitely be above his CE self. For one, he's just stated to have gained new power in the databook, and he blatantly intercepted Kimimaro's blitz attempt on Naruto, which made Kimimaro consider Lee a bigger problem than KM0 Naruto. He even reacts to CM2 Kimimaro. This doesn't contradict the statements suggesting CE Lee>SRA Lee, as Gaara only saw him after he was weakened and groggy. Lee saying Gaara did a number on him can just mean his stamina's lowered, which led to his quicker decline compared to how he could've dealt with alcohol and injury in his CE state.
SRA Lee should definitely be above his CE self. For one, he's just stated to have gained new power in the databook, and he blatantly intercepted Kimimaro's blitz attempt on Naruto, which made Kimimaro consider Lee a bigger problem than KM0 Naruto. He even reacts to CM2 Kimimaro. This doesn't contradict the statements suggesting CE Lee>SRA Lee, as Gaara only saw him after he was weakened and groggy. Lee saying Gaara did a number on him can just mean his stamina's lowered, which led to his quicker decline compared to how he could've dealt with alcohol and injury in his CE state.
Neji shouldn't be faster than 1st Gate Lee, considering even Base Lee is noted to have unparalleled speed among the genin by Neji's master. Neji being able to beat Lee using the 1st or 2nd Gate is most likely in reference to him being able to react to his attacks and dodge or use Rotation in response, which is grounds for MHS reaction speed, but not combat speed, which should be around/slightly below Weightless Lee. Feats support his combat speed being High Hypersonic+ as opposed to Massively Hypersonic too, cause Base Naruto slightly reacted to Neji's Shunshin, Neji's Shunshin is relative to KM0 Naruto's, and KM0 Naruto's Shunshin was fast enough to evade Neji's shuriken. And it's just kinda common sense that Neji's basic punches and kicks shouldn't be faster than his Shunshin. It also doesn't make much sense to scale him 5x above the average jonin who scale to the Sound 4 when the databook states his abilities are chunin level.
It's not quite true that Temari defeated Ten Ten effortlessly, as she starts the fight with no damage but is a little bruised afterward, implying Ten Ten tagged her at some point. It's also kind of implied she wouldn't have done so poorly if Temari wasn't a hard counter to her.
Can this be used to determine anything about Kiba's speed?
I'm not sure I really see the difference between Gaara's reaction speed and sand shield, feats for reaction are mentioned in the sand shield portion and combat speed feats of interception for his sand are mentioned in the reaction speed portion. Speaking of, SRA Gaara only being Subsonic+ is pretty criminal. He's not as fast as Kimimaro sure, but he's definitely not cliffed by hundreds of times. He literally blitzed CM1 Kimimaro with a fully head on attack, no tricks or misdirections involved. Sure, the sheer size of the attack contributed, but if Gaara was far too slow, that wouldn't matter and Kimimaro would just be able to circle around it or at least back away and run away from it. Gaara also flew himself and Lee above CM2 Kimimaro's Bracken Dance before it spiked them. And him slapping the ground to form a sand shield is pretty much a combat speed feat. Not to mention the times he spawned sand to protect Lee, which isn't really reaction speed since it's not a dodge or block of oneself, it's moving his sand to in front of Lee.
Tayuya and Sakon are running in formation, that doesn't mean they're comparable. There's a huge number of scaling problems you'd run into if you just used any instance of allies running alongside each other to say they're relative.
I think at least High Hypersonic+ for Genma and Raido would be more appropriate, since they were fatigued and scale to the CM2 Sound Four, who are far above the base S4 that are already High Hypersonic+. I suppose this would also apply to the other jonin who scale to the CM2 S4, just not necessarily the fatigue point.
Hayate being one of the best ninja from Konoha may be a good thing to add to his justification.
Hayate being one of the best ninja from Konoha may be a good thing to add to his justification.
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MinatoSparkle
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Dam I just found a cool statement implying P1 Kakashi>1T Naruto/CM2 Sasuke
下恩のサスケとナルトは、カカシのスピードの前では問題にならない。二人に師を超える日はくるのだろうか?
下恩のサスケとナルトは、カカシのスピードの前では問題にならない。二人に師を超える日はくるのだろうか?
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How does this even remotely imply that?Dam I just found a cool statement implying P1 Kakashi>1T Naruto/CM2 Sasuke
下恩のサスケとナルトは、カカシのスピードの前では問題にならない。二人に師を超える日はくるのだろうか?
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Find something talking about it in a different context cause then they'll think it means only them in baseDam I just found a cool statement implying P1 Kakashi>1T Naruto/CM2 Sasuke
下恩のサスケとナルトは、カカシのスピードの前では問題にならない。二人に師を超える日はくるのだろうか?
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I mean 1T naruto didn't even exist at this point
MinatoSparkle
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Not talking about the first part but the second, where the narrator questions whether they'll ever surpass him, and it has knowledge on the VOTE fight as the databook covers all of P1.
Testarossa002
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I don't think it works that way.
It's referencing a specific panel
It's referencing a specific panel
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Well well well, ask and you shall receive. 
MinatoSparkle
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The first sentence is referencing that in particular, then the second is a more general question.
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That's not how it works. Just because the narrator has knowlege on all of part 1 does not change the fact that the statement is for that scan.
"The first part is for the scan but the second part is for the whole databook". That's some mental gymnastics right there
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The whole statement is for the entire databook. They're saying he wasn't impressed, and also saying that they didn't surpass him yet in the entirety of the databook's knowledge. Why would they be like "will they ever surpass him? Find out when they do that next week!"
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On Dragon Ball Z
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Actually they can be like that.
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Yes, but why would the databook say that if they had done it already?
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The databook is only talking about that moment in time. Irrespective of if they had or had not done it later on it is just explaining on exactly that moment naruto and sasuke fought.
Also I never claimed that they surpassed kakashi. I simply said that statement does not have any bearing on forms they acquired later on in the series
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Straight ******* fire
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Sigh...
With that out of the way, I can already tell you, all versions of Kakashi outside of DMS and maybe WA will scale to the same value. He scales to the same people he did in Part I in Part II. There is just no real significant change there. He may end up having more Pre-WA keys, actually, but the reason for that split will definitely not be speed. Probably not AP either for most of them, but that remains to be seen ofc.
Regarding his training, both of the scans you posted really emphasize strength, endurance, and stamina if anything, which are generally the things Kakashi struggled with. And, really, stamina is the main thing he gains throughout the series for the most part, aside from abilities and the ability to use them more effectively. Neither of the statements really imply that he was lacking in speed, and rock climbing isn't exactly going to make him insanely faster than before. It's strength and endurance training.
As for the DB stats, I just couldn't care less about them tbf. Here's a note for the future when this inevitably comes back up again. Either conjure up an actual in-story example of Kakashi's speed changing significantly at any point, or just....don't bring it up.
Also get used to that being a thing now because A LOT of what we deem as Combat Speed at present is actually just Reaction Speed, and the distinction will be made a lot for some Part II stuff.
Let's delve into the actual example you brought up.
Lee was tagged by Dosu's sound wave, but there's a couple of things to note there. As you said, this was Post-Front Lotus. Meaning, this was an exhausted and beat up base Lee. Not Gated Lee, nor a base Lee at his best. The Front Lotus isn't a move that's used constantly, it's just a short burst movement. Once it's through, that's it. It's not a constant boost. This is done to avoid destroying his body.
Secondly, what would he even do there? Sound is invisible, and he was hit at damn near point blank range while he was hurting from the after effects of the Front Lotus. I just don't see this as a great anti-feat or anything, personally.
I just think Gaara's statement in combination with, just.....common sense is really indicative that Lee really shouldn't be at his peak her, let alone far above it. The DB on the other hand is far too vague to counteract all of that IMO.
Kimimaro was not taking that Naruto seriously at all.
He didn't react in any capacity. He perceived Kimimaro, but he did nothing in response to Kimimaro. Reaction speed constitutes making some kind of action in response to some sort of stimulus. Lee in those scans you posted performed exactly zero actions in response to Kimimaro.
Like, are you arguing that Tenten should scale to Temari here? Because I don't think we have anywhere near enough evidence to claim that she does. We have zero clue as to how she may have gotten those scuff marks. Like, it seems that you're holding a strangely generous view of Tenten's performance there for absolutely no reason lmao.
Kimimaro was NOT blitzed here. He was just overwhelmed by an AOE attack of comparable speed to himself, as we know from previous examples of the Sand Shield intercepting him, blocking his attacks, etc. But Kimimaro is also perfectly capable of keeping up with it. They're comparable, but Kimimaro was done dirty by the AOE. That's it.
None of these are physical feats, man. I'm assuming you're confused, so I'll clear it up for you.
Subsonic+ is for Gaara's physical speed. Just his regular combat speed and whatnot.
MHS reactions covers instances like this. And, yes, this is 100% a reactions speed feat. All of the others in his reactions section are reaction feats, too.
The other MHS is for his Sand, which covers all of the feats you brought up here.
That's the rundown, but if you're still confused I can do a breakdown of every single thing in that description if you'd like. I think it's relatively straightforward stuff as far as the distinction goes, but I don't mind explaining it if needed.
So it's not so much "the Sound 4 are relative because they fight as a group", and it's more so "the Sound 4 are relative because they keep up against the same opponents".
Although, now that you mention it. I think the fact that Baki can fight Genma should definitely be added to his justification, since that's just direct scaling. And Hayate is capable of fighting Baki, even though he lost. I just forgot about those interactions lol. But, yeah, I'll add that stuff later.
You should've saved your strength for the real battle lmao, but it's cool.Agree with a lot of stuff, and am particularly fond of the appreciation for Shunshin being faster than regular combat speed. That being said, it of course wouldn't be a proper MinatoSparkle response without me inciting a bible war
There's so much to say here, but I'll honestly just start with the knockout punch, so to speak.
This is what Kakashi's Pre-WA set up is looking like atm. I think it should be pretty obvious why things are the way they are with KN0 Naruto at present. We make no distinction for Kakashi's speed pre and post P1. We didn't make any effort to change that because, well, Kakashi isn't really within this revision's scope. It just so happens that some Part I characters scale to him, so we updated the value he scales to because the old False Darkness calc is super outdated. Basically, any discussion regarding Kakashi's scaling will have to wait until the sequel.
With that out of the way, I can already tell you, all versions of Kakashi outside of DMS and maybe WA will scale to the same value. He scales to the same people he did in Part I in Part II. There is just no real significant change there. He may end up having more Pre-WA keys, actually, but the reason for that split will definitely not be speed. Probably not AP either for most of them, but that remains to be seen ofc.
Regarding his training, both of the scans you posted really emphasize strength, endurance, and stamina if anything, which are generally the things Kakashi struggled with. And, really, stamina is the main thing he gains throughout the series for the most part, aside from abilities and the ability to use them more effectively. Neither of the statements really imply that he was lacking in speed, and rock climbing isn't exactly going to make him insanely faster than before. It's strength and endurance training.
As for the DB stats, I just couldn't care less about them tbf. Here's a note for the future when this inevitably comes back up again. Either conjure up an actual in-story example of Kakashi's speed changing significantly at any point, or just....don't bring it up.
Yeah, this gets a no from me. Even if Neji were lower than he is right now, I still wouldn't use it. Naruto just caught him off-guard with a smart tactic there. He was otherwise getting absolutely dusted and blitzed by Neji.
Uh, I wouldn't say it's much of an assumption tbh, but sure. I'll add it.
That's literally what reaction speed is.
Reacting to something, and making a singular motion in response is reaction speed. And that's all Sasuke did throughout the fight. Reacted and countered, as you said.
Also get used to that being a thing now because A LOT of what we deem as Combat Speed at present is actually just Reaction Speed, and the distinction will be made a lot for some Part II stuff.
It's Sasuke who's scaling to Naruto's speed there with the Chidori, actually, not the other way around.
Yes. Because in all of the instances where it was used in Part I, it only boosted reactions. I'm not going to just assume it boosts everything when that's never shown or stated.
Casually blitzing someone who's already damn near the speed of sound (referring to Sasuke, who's Mach 0.831) makes Lee with the Front Lotus being Supersonic pretty consistent in my eyes. Not to mention, it's just derived from the multiplier, which I hate personally, but you'd have to bring up a really good reason for it to not be used here. A prime example of that would be a blatant contradiction, but I don't think there is one.
Let's delve into the actual example you brought up.
Lee was tagged by Dosu's sound wave, but there's a couple of things to note there. As you said, this was Post-Front Lotus. Meaning, this was an exhausted and beat up base Lee. Not Gated Lee, nor a base Lee at his best. The Front Lotus isn't a move that's used constantly, it's just a short burst movement. Once it's through, that's it. It's not a constant boost. This is done to avoid destroying his body.
Secondly, what would he even do there? Sound is invisible, and he was hit at damn near point blank range while he was hurting from the after effects of the Front Lotus. I just don't see this as a great anti-feat or anything, personally.
Yes, because coming out of SPINE SURGERY and being blatantly told by the smartest doctor in the world that he should definitely take it easy for a little while is super indicative of someone gaining a power boost...
I just think Gaara's statement in combination with, just.....common sense is really indicative that Lee really shouldn't be at his peak her, let alone far above it. The DB on the other hand is far too vague to counteract all of that IMO.
He intercepted Kimimaro trying to murk a distracted base Naruto..
Kimimaro was not taking that Naruto seriously at all.
I'm starting to think you have no idea what reaction speed is, Sparkle.
He didn't react in any capacity. He perceived Kimimaro, but he did nothing in response to Kimimaro. Reaction speed constitutes making some kind of action in response to some sort of stimulus. Lee in those scans you posted performed exactly zero actions in response to Kimimaro.
It definitely contradicts it.
I'm leaving this one to @LordTracer because it'll be really funny.
At this point it's starting to feel like you're just making arguments for the sake of it.
Like, are you arguing that Tenten should scale to Temari here? Because I don't think we have anywhere near enough evidence to claim that she does. We have zero clue as to how she may have gotten those scuff marks. Like, it seems that you're holding a strangely generous view of Tenten's performance there for absolutely no reason lmao.
I'm not entirely sure what "this" is referring to, but I'm assuming it's the "with a speed invisible to the eye" statement? If so, then maybe? I mean, we can add it, I guess. But it doesn't actually change anything because Kiba is already Subsonic. Could be support ig.
I'm gonna need you to reword this and actually give me some specific examples as to what you have an issue with because I'm struggling to understand your point.
Naruto fans trying not to misuse the word "blitz" challenge (Difficulty: IMPOSSIBLE)
Kimimaro was NOT blitzed here. He was just overwhelmed by an AOE attack of comparable speed to himself, as we know from previous examples of the Sand Shield intercepting him, blocking his attacks, etc. But Kimimaro is also perfectly capable of keeping up with it. They're comparable, but Kimimaro was done dirty by the AOE. That's it.
I'm genuinely confused here, but literally every single feat you brought up here was achieved with Gaara's Sand.....
None of these are physical feats, man. I'm assuming you're confused, so I'll clear it up for you.
Subsonic+ is for Gaara's physical speed. Just his regular combat speed and whatnot.
MHS reactions covers instances like this. And, yes, this is 100% a reactions speed feat. All of the others in his reactions section are reaction feats, too.
The other MHS is for his Sand, which covers all of the feats you brought up here.
That's the rundown, but if you're still confused I can do a breakdown of every single thing in that description if you'd like. I think it's relatively straightforward stuff as far as the distinction goes, but I don't mind explaining it if needed.
It's not about them fighting together in and of itself. It's about them fighting the same people, who pushed all of them, implying relativity between the S4 and the tired Jonin.
So it's not so much "the Sound 4 are relative because they fight as a group", and it's more so "the Sound 4 are relative because they keep up against the same opponents".
This is actually fine. Your point, I mean.
Not sure how we treat "At least" ratings when people scale to values that are not close to the next tier, but I'm not inherently opposed to this if the others are okay with it.
I'm fine with this, I guess, but it just kinda says nothing about his speed is all.
Although, now that you mention it. I think the fact that Baki can fight Genma should definitely be added to his justification, since that's just direct scaling. And Hayate is capable of fighting Baki, even though he lost. I just forgot about those interactions lol. But, yeah, I'll add that stuff later.
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Oh brother.
The context is very, very clearly for that instance on the rooftop. That's the reasoning for the Databook's assertion that they are inferior in the first place.
So, no, a statement from the DB that is far from conclusive and is likely referring to a specific event will not be used to override very straightforward statements and scaling from the Manga.
Additionally, this stuff rarely puts stuff like Kurama's power into consideration. It's about their individual strength at that point in time. At that point in the story, Kurama's power was NOT considered as part of Naruto's power, but rather its own thing.
A fantastic example of this is how Naruto was still considered a rival to Kakashi, who may or may not have surpassed him at that point in time, even though he'd already shown power far greater than Kakashi's with Kurama's chakra much earlier on. It's because Naruto and Kurama were separate entities back then, and the power he got through Kurama was never considered his own. That is until he achieved control over it via KCM, but I digress.
This is beyond useless.Dam I just found a cool statement implying P1 Kakashi>1T Naruto/CM2 Sasuke
下恩のサスケとナルトは、カカシのスピードの前では問題にならない。二人に師を超える日はくるのだろうか?
The context is very, very clearly for that instance on the rooftop. That's the reasoning for the Databook's assertion that they are inferior in the first place.
So, no, a statement from the DB that is far from conclusive and is likely referring to a specific event will not be used to override very straightforward statements and scaling from the Manga.
Additionally, this stuff rarely puts stuff like Kurama's power into consideration. It's about their individual strength at that point in time. At that point in the story, Kurama's power was NOT considered as part of Naruto's power, but rather its own thing.
A fantastic example of this is how Naruto was still considered a rival to Kakashi, who may or may not have surpassed him at that point in time, even though he'd already shown power far greater than Kakashi's with Kurama's chakra much earlier on. It's because Naruto and Kurama were separate entities back then, and the power he got through Kurama was never considered his own. That is until he achieved control over it via KCM, but I digress.
Testarossa002
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Doesn't need to be the next tier
The character who's getting the rating just needs to be considerably higher on the scaling chain for the OG calc
For example, Naruto at the later stages of the war is 1.something c. Someone like fused momoshiki would be at least that value in the absence of new calcs or multipliers
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I guess I'm fine with giving the baseline Jonin peeps an 'At least'. They did fight the S4 while exhausted, low on chakra, and outnumbered 2:1, so it checks out.
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Yeah, even if the value is like 1.1x, or even like 1.0001x.
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Before we begin, I’m gonna make something very clear. I do not have the patience to trade multiple Bibles with you, so I’m simply not going to do so. I’m going to respond to this, but I’m not letting this thread get drawn out for 900 years because of it. Now…
Lee having “unparalled” speed isn’t a contradiction to Neji’s combat speed, because base Lee is faster than him in movement speed. Your notion that Kaiten is the only reason why Guy and Lee thought that the Reverse Lotus was needed to beat Neji is an assumption that isn’t even implied. Not to mention that, even if that was true, that would still warrant MHS combat speed, not just reaction speed. I don’t know if you get how reaction speed works, but you know Neji has to like… actively move to perform the actual Rotation that the move is named after, right? Your “anti-feats” don’t even kinda work, Neji’s Shunshin is HHS+, so Naruto slightly reacting to it means nothing, and KN0 Naruto literally gets his scaling FROM NEJI, so I don’t know what makes you think that’s an anti-feat. You’d need to prove that Neji’s Shunshin scales above his combat speed, “muh common sense” is not an argument, and it’s one that’s arguably contradicted considering that Naruto could react to Neji’s Shunshin but got completely shit on by the Sixty-Four Palms.
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XSOULOFCINDERX
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I agree with UchihaSlayer and Tracer FRA.
MinatoSparkle
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It's not mental gymnastics to say that we should pay attention to the wording of statements
Sadboi
Idk about that even for most of P2, but LoW Kakashi defo doesn't scale to the same people as WA Kakashi. A very blatant example is that WA Kakashi scales to WA 6th Gate Guy while P1 Base Guy is much faster than LoW Kakashi. Also he most definitely scales above 1st Gate Guy considering he's the strongest Konoha jonin.
Those may be the more significant problems he had, but training in general's gonna strengthen his chakra which he uses for speed.
I mean even if you don't care for them, they do exist and do support my point.
He has the Byakugan and there was a bit of a distance but I get what you mean, just doesn't seem like something that can be accomplished by a Subsonic character against a Massively Hypersonic one.
Hmmmmm sure ig just seems weird to call decking someone with a kick "reaction speed" but I suppose it's more of a labelling thing.
mk
Well that's what I meant, that it may just be CM2 Sasuke's regular speed that scales to 1T Naruto.
It is stated though (さらに相手の動きや攻撃の軌道 をも見切り、反撃を恐れない的 確な攻撃・致命傷を避ける防御・ 軌道を見切っての攻撃回避等、あらゆる面で術者の戦闘力 は格段に向上する。). And hasn't it just been accepted verse wide that the Sharingan boosts AP and combat speed?
My point isn't that Dosu hit Weakened Lee, but that he states that Lee's moves don't compare to the speed of sound after just witnessing the Front Lotus.
I agree it's weird, but Naruto's no stranger to characters getting weird power ups, and scaling>implications that don't have to be referring to stats.
Him being distracted and in base doesn't imply Kimimaro's holding back. Especially considering Kimimaro started in front of Naruto, it'd be pretty dumb to take the risk of Naruto noticing and avoiding the hit, when it takes such a small amount of effort to just swing his arm faster. And this feat is pretty much the same as Shikamaru landing Shadow Strangle on CM2 Tayuya when she thought he was restrained, and is on his profile. It's as simple as Kimimaro tried to land a killing blow on Naruto and Lee intercepted him. Also that doesn't address his statement about Lee>Naruto.
He moved his arm from in front of him to his side and had time to think a full sentence. And in the second instance while he didn't move in any meaningful capacity, he did still widen his eyes and open his mouth in surprise when Kimimaro was in very close proximity already. I'll admit this is more of a perception feat though since facial movements aren't exactly combat applicable.
Uh, well I can't really say anything about this since you didn't address my argument.
Bringing up scaling implications for a character with very little scaling is beneficial imo.
I was wondering if there's a way to calc perception blitzing a normal human from the distance Kiba usually starts Fang Over Fang from.
Actually I don't think it's a problem, the usage of the term "Sand Shield" just made me think it's referring only to the speed of Gaara's automatic sand defense protecting him and not the speed he can move sand to attack. If his sand combat speed is Kimimaro level it's fine. Might be useful to change that to just "Sand" so other people don't also misinterpret that as excluding his sand attacking.
When I say blitz I just mean tagged him before he was able to respond. Either way considering this is his best tagging feat against Kimimaro I'd recommend adding it, all the current sand feats on his profile are blocking/intercepting.
I get most of this now that reaction speed and Sand Shield's been cleared up, although calling an instance where Gaara sent sand flying inbetween Lee and Kimimaro reaction speed is a bit sus, it's not really a short movement.
But...that was a big part of my argument regarding WA Kakashi~Base Edo Minato as well? Like I'll take it, I just hope the same logic will be taken into account with Kakashi in the P2 speed revisions in that case.
If he's a top tier jonin, he should be able to keep up with other fast jonin.
Ye
Not everything in a caption has to be referring only to the timeframe/feat it's pointing to, in this case it's written like the first sentence is pertaining to the pointed feat then transitioned into an overall discussion on Kakashi's standing compared to his students with the question of them surpassing him ever. Also don't you think Minato~V2 Ay, while the statement saying Ay~Minato is in a caption next to V1 Ay?
That's Yamato's personal assessment from a later point in the story at that, and is after Yamato witnessed Kurama completely taking over Naruto and making him unconscious. At that point it's obviously not Naruto's power, but otherwise he's considered as having control over Nine Tails' power, and in P1, he was still generally in control of himself when tapping into Kurama outside of arguably when he fought Haku. He did also tap into his >LoW KM0 power of his own volition, and could've done so at the point in time of the rooftop fight considering he didn't do any Nine Tails control training between then and the VOTE, meaning Kakashi was at least above the likes of LoW KM0 Naruto and Haku.
Again, V2 is very different.
That's just putting words in Guy's mouth, he said that after Lee performed both a movement speed feat and combat speed feat, and if anything it was moreso combat speed since the point of emphasis was Lee landing a kick past Gaara's automatic sand defense.
The specific method isn't the important part, the fact of the matter is we have evidence that Base Lee is faster than Neji, and we have evidence that Neji would beat Lee if he used the 1st or 2nd Gate. Whether this is through dodging until Lee runs out of the Gate, dodging and counterattacking at a Tenketsu to stop the flow of chakra (AKA reaction speed), using Rotation, etc., those 2 points don't change.
He can surround himself with chakra to slow down or stop Lee in his tracks like he did to Naruto and Kidomaru's arrows.
My point is that Neji's Shunshin~KM0 Naruto's Shunshin~Neji's combat speed, meaning Base Naruto would be able to slightly react to Neji's combat speed as well, which is supposedly MHS.
It's just super activating your body for a brief period with chakra, I don't see what the leap is here. Saying that your normal speed is faster than your speed when you're literally enhancing it with a jutsu is like saying that Base Goku is faster than Kaioken Goku. He also stood up and leaned away before Neji used 64 palms so no if anything the 64 palms instance just supports his Shunshin being faster than his combat speed, considering all Naruto did in that instance was tilt his head a little.
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LoW Kakashi scales to Zabuza, who scales to WA Kakashi
WA Kakashi shouldn't even scale to 6th Gate Guy.
MinatoSparkle
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That's either a textbook example of an outlier or a mental nerf cause all his other scalings are far above this
Except he clearly does? He just blatantly keeps up with Guy and besides that can fight the Jinchuriki who pressed KCM Naruto, fought BZ Obito alongside Minato, fought Rinnegan Obito, he's relative to TSOs and his Kamui has insane feats.
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I feel like Zabuza is the most obvious Mental Amp user in the verse.
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Doesn't he scale to the Edo Jinchuurikis? They're all 6-Cs.
Also, Kakashi, KCM Naruto, and 6th Gate Guy are portrayed to be relative iirc.
MinatoSparkle
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I mean his mind was under control tbf but that aura thing probably played a role.
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This is gonna sound stupid since I was the one who started talking about it in the first place so I apologize, but let's stop talking about war arc
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Thank you, Tempest. Yes, let's save that for the next thread. Its time will certainly come.
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I guess what I can say is this. If Kakashi ends up having more than one pre-WA keys (which I think is likely) and those keys are deemed to have speed lower than what P2 Kakashi scales to (remains to be seen, I suppose), then that's the value that KN0 will scale to. It is that simple. But for now, nothing's gonna change as far as this thread's concerned.
), and Gaara just states point blank that he's slower than before. It literally cannot get more clear cut than that.
You have the statements we already talked about, but you also have the fact that outside of that initial interception, Lee really had nothing for Kimimaro speed wise and was just getting finessed until he went drunk. All of those things add up, and like I told you before, you gotta consider what's most consistent overall, rather than laser focus on micro events and ignoring the macro context.
People just need to employ a modicum of reading comprehension and critical thinking, and they'll be fine.
I'm gonna take my own advice and just say this should be discussed in the next thread. No point in clogging this thread with that discussion.
I guess what I can say is this. If Kakashi ends up having more than one pre-WA keys (which I think is likely) and those keys are deemed to have speed lower than what P2 Kakashi scales to (remains to be seen, I suppose), then that's the value that KN0 will scale to. It is that simple. But for now, nothing's gonna change as far as this thread's concerned.
When indexing a character, you also have to consider consistency, context, etc. Is it consistent for Naruto to scale close to Neji within that fight's context when 99% of their interactions are Naruto getting shat on casually? Especially when the context of this particular instance is that Neji was caught off guard by a clever tactic, nothing more. We have to look at things holistically, rather than focus in on one inconsistent instance that'll just inflate Naruto to a tier he just doesn't belong in at that point in time.
It's because what many people believe Reaction Speed to be is in fact just Perception Speed. It's okay, I used to have that problem as well, but once you get the distinction down it becomes easy to recognize the difference. It is a bit confusing at times, though, I will admit.
You'd have to prove that.
It's not. And the statement you posted literally branches out and explains exactly how their "combat power" is enhanced, all of which are examples of reaction speed, not combat speed.
Except he doesn't actually say "your movement speed is slower than the speed of sound". He was boasting that no matter how strong or fast he is, sonic attacks ignore all of that and deal damage, given that he elaborates by saying "muscles alone can't break down this wall of sound" after hitting Lee with a durability negating attack. Dosu's also in no position to even be a good source of comparison for Lee's speed vs the speed of sound, since he was actually blitzed by Lee. Literally could not even perceive his movement in that instance.
Except they are referring to stats. There's no other context for it here. The man came out of back surgery, Tsunade said he should take it easy (I wonder why
), and Gaara just states point blank that he's slower than before. It literally cannot get more clear cut than that.And, again, it is not consistent for Lee to scale to Kimimaro. It is contradicted, it is illogical, and I'm pretty sure we treat it as an outlier AP wise anyway. So, not sure why we shouldn't do the same with speed as well.
You have the statements we already talked about, but you also have the fact that outside of that initial interception, Lee really had nothing for Kimimaro speed wise and was just getting finessed until he went drunk. All of those things add up, and like I told you before, you gotta consider what's most consistent overall, rather than laser focus on micro events and ignoring the macro context.
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Tuff.
Well, sorry, but I really don't see the implication that Tenten is relative to Temari from this, ngl.
There is.....but it never happened on-screen, so we really don't have anything to calc there. It'd most likely just be Subsonic, though, so nothing would change regardless.
The 'Sand Shield', to my knowledge at least, is the only official name for the sand he uses to attack and defend. His "personal sand" if you will, which we know is used for both things depending on what Gaara wants.
I personally don't agree with adding it because, again, it only caught him due to the massive AOE of the attack, rather than its sheer speed. I can add it if others disgaree, of course, but that's my personal assessment of that situation.
It's not, but it counts for the sand's speed. Gaara himself did not move, at all. Only the sand did.
We shall see.
Well, he's not, though. He's not even in the top 5 of Konoha Jonin.
The context for that is very different lmao.
Except, we know he's not. Once again, a vague Databook statement will not be used to discredit far more straightforward manga material.
It's really not. Neither are considered Naruto's own power at any point in Part I or II until he gains KCM, and even then (as well as in all other instances that came before) it is always prefaced by and referred to as "Nine-Tails' power".
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No, it's just about him being healed
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Then why does it say "new power?" Does it just mean "he's stronger when he isn't injured?"
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