Not yet, Sparkle, not yet....(Naruto: Part I Speed Revision)

[DivineAura44]

Then why does it say "new power?" Does it just mean "he's stronger when he isn't injured?"

New can mean different from before. In this case, his power is after being healed is different from his power while injured.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Spoiler: We only exist to suffer

Spoiler: Why are we still here? Just to suffer?

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 Yes

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I'm gonna take my own advice and just say this should be discussed in the next thread. No point in clogging this thread with that discussion.

I guess what I can say is this. If Kakashi ends up having more than one pre-WA keys (which I think is likely) and those keys are deemed to have speed lower than what P2 Kakashi scales to (remains to be seen, I suppose), then that's the value that KN0 will scale to. It is that simple. But for now, nothing's gonna change as far as this thread's concerned.

Mk

When indexing a character, you also have to consider consistency, context, etc. Is it consistent for Naruto to scale close to Neji within that fight's context when 99% of their interactions are Naruto getting shat on casually? Especially when the context of this particular instance is that Neji was caught off guard by a clever tactic, nothing more. We have to look at things holistically, rather than focus in on one inconsistent instance that'll just inflate Naruto to a tier he just doesn't belong in at that point in time.

Neji is clearly above Naruto, but there's nothing to say he's so far above him that he can't tag him in somewhat favorable circumstances.

It's because what many people believe Reaction Speed to be is in fact just Perception Speed. It's okay, I used to have that problem as well, but once you get the distinction down it becomes easy to recognize the difference. It is a bit confusing at times, though, I will admit.

You'd have to prove that.

Well like I said, he's not running to build up speed.

It's not. And the statement you posted literally branches out and explains exactly how their "combat power" is enhanced, all of which are examples of reaction speed, not combat speed.

It says "such as," meaning it's not limited to those. And it also says all aspects, so it'd kinda have to include basic attributes like strength and combat speed.

Except he doesn't actually say "your movement speed is slower than the speed of sound". He was boasting that no matter how strong or fast he is, sonic attacks ignore all of that and deal damage, given that he elaborates by saying "muscles alone can't break down this wall of sound" after hitting Lee with a durability negating attack. Dosu's also in no position to even be a good source of comparison for Lee's speed vs the speed of sound, since he was actually blitzed by Lee. Literally could not even perceive his movement in that instance.

He's pretty much saying "Your attacks are fast, but mine are faster, and anyways brute force doesn't work against us."

Well he was blitzed by the initial movement but he had a perception just before he was hit.

Except they are referring to stats. There's no other context for it here. The man came out of back surgery, Tsunade said he should take it easy (I wonder why ), and Gaara just states point blank that he's slower than before. It literally cannot get more clear cut than that.

Or it's just that his body wears down easier than before. It's like replacing a slow 64 GB card with a fast 32 GB card. The latter performs better with what it has, but it hits its limit quicker.

And, again, it is not consistent for Lee to scale to Kimimaro. It is contradicted, it is illogical, and I'm pretty sure we treat it as an outlier AP wise anyway. So, not sure why we shouldn't do the same with speed as well.

It's inconsistent with someone that never saw FP Lee. Otherwise it's fine. It's shown, stated, and presented that Lee is stronger here than he was previously.

You have the statements we already talked about, but you also have the fact that outside of that initial interception, Lee really had nothing for Kimimaro speed wise and was just getting finessed until he went drunk. All of those things add up, and like I told you before, you gotta consider what's most consistent overall, rather than laser focus on micro events and ignoring the macro context.

Lee doesn't scale to Kimimaro's reaction speed, but he scales to his combat speed. Makes sense since reactions tend to be higher than combat speed. Heck, Kimimaro's even able to dodge Gaara who can somewhat keep up with CM2 Kimimaro so that's really not much of an antifeat.

...

Tuff.

Bruh

Well, sorry, but I really don't see the implication that Tenten is relative to Temari from this, ngl.

I see the implication that she pushed Temari to mid diff from her landing some hits despite being at a matchup disadvantage.

There is.....but it never happened on-screen, so we really don't have anything to calc there. It'd most likely just be Subsonic, though, so nothing would change regardless.

Sure

The 'Sand Shield', to my knowledge at least, is the only official name for the sand he uses to attack and defend. His "personal sand" if you will, which we know is used for both things depending on what Gaara wants. People just need to employ a modicum of reading comprehension and critical thinking, and they'll be fine.

I mean he only refers to it as the Sand Shield in the context of its defense. Otherwise as shown in the scans you sent it's referred to as just "sand."

I personally don't agree with adding it because, again, it only caught him due to the massive AOE of the attack, rather than its sheer speed. I can add it if others disgaree, of course, but that's my personal assessment of that situation.

I'd think having at least one offensive feat on the profile can't really be a bad thing.

It's not, but it counts for the sand's speed. Gaara himself did not move, at all. Only the sand did.

It's in the reaction speed part of his rating

We shall see.

Well, he's not, though. He's not even in the top 5 of Konoha Jonin.

Maybe not top top tier, but at least up there.

The context for that is very different lmao.

Except, we know he's not. Once again, a vague Databook statement will not be used to discredit far more straightforward manga material.

It's really not. Neither are considered Naruto's own power at any point in Part I or II until he gains KCM, and even then (as well as in all other instances that came before) it is always prefaced by and referred to as "Nine-Tails' power".

Disagree but as has been said multiple times we'll save Kakashi for later.

 

[SlendVeny]

New can mean different from before. In this case, his power is after being healed is different from his power while injured.

That's stupid. They're stupid. Why would we need to know that? He's less hurt now that he isn't as hurt, big deal.

 

[KingTempest]

Then why does it say "new power?" Does it just mean "he's stronger when he isn't injured?"

Because Japanese authors have a goofy diction

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Or they make characters stronger in weird ways

 

[LordTracer]

Spoiler

That's just putting words in Guy's mouth, he said that after Lee performed both a movement speed feat and combat speed feat, and if anything it was moreso combat speed since the point of emphasis was Lee landing a kick past Gaara's automatic sand defense.

First of all, I didn’t even make a claim about what Guy was saying, I said it doesn’t contradict that stats that we gave. I notice that you left out the fact that Guy made that statement after Lee used Shunshin, so he’s not referring to Lee’s base speed like you’re trying to argue.

The specific method isn't the important part, the fact of the matter is we have evidence that Base Lee is faster than Neji,

In movement speed, sure.

Whether this is through dodging until Lee runs out of the Gate, dodging and counterattacking at a Tenketsu to stop the flow of chakra (AKA reaction speed), using Rotation, etc., those 2 points don't change.

And, as I said in my original reply, Lee scales above Neji in movement speed, Neji scales to his Gates in combat speed. You’re creating a contradiction where there isn’t any.

He can surround himself with chakra to slow down or stop Lee in his tracks like he did to Naruto and Kidomaru's arrows.

Crazy how when he did that with Naruto, it was immediately followed by him, y’know, actually rotating. It’s implied he was going to do the same against Kidomaru, but he couldn’t since the rotation got caught in his webs.

It's just super activating your body for a brief period with chakra, I don't see what the leap is here. Saying that your normal speed is faster than your speed when you're literally enhancing it with a jutsu is like saying that Base Goku is faster than Kaioken Goku.

Neji’s combat speed with Shunshin would be higher, sure, but if you actually look at the sandbox, you’ll see that his HHS+ is specifically for movement speed with Shunshin. You haven’t provided any evidence that suggests his Shunshin movement speed would be greater than his normal combat speed.

He also stood up and leaned away before Neji used 64 palms so no if anything the 64 palms instance just supports his Shunshin being faster than his combat speed, considering all Naruto did in that instance was tilt his head a little.

Naruto reacts to Neji starting to move (again, his movement speed isn’t MHS, only his combat and reaction speed), he doesn’t react at all when Neji actually starts landing hits on him. Nothing suggests Naruto can react to his combat speed.

The only argument I can somewhat agree with is the idea of scaling the baseline jōnin above Neji, since he’s stated to be chūnin level. Anything else, I completely disagree with.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Spoiler: "I'm in Hell." ~ Obito

Neji is clearly above Naruto, but there's nothing to say he's so far above him that he can't tag him in somewhat favorable circumstances.

There is. The fact that in every relevant interaction prior to that point was Naruto getting blitzed and overwhelmed by Neji goes against the notion that Naruto is remotely close to him. So that's the "consistency" criteria not met. Then when you couple that with the fact that Naruto only got him there by catching him off guard, and it just makes the scaling there really shaky.

Well like I said, he's not running to build up speed.

Who says running is the only requirement to build speed? Flying achieves the same thing. Not to mention, the Chidori/Raikiri doesn't require running for the speed amp to kick in. Remember, it completely unusable without the Sharingan. Not just when they're running, but in all of its variations, period. It can't be used without a sharingan no matter what. That wouldn't be the case if they could just use it like a lightning sword or something, and the speed amp was only exclusive to the "you need to run up to your opponent" version. The thrust in and of itself has those effects. It's why Naruto was able to counter Sasuke here, for example. The thrust itself is so fast it creates tunnel vision without the Sharingan boosting reactions.

It says "such as," meaning it's not limited to those. And it also says all aspects, so it'd kinda have to include basic attributes like strength and combat speed.

That's your assumption. You're presupposing that without the statement actually saying that at all. It makes a general claim, and then goes into the specifics of what gets enhanced after the "such as". And, as luck would have it, those examples mentioned are perfectly consistent with what we see. It boosting all aspects of speed, however, is not something we see. That's about it.

He's pretty much saying "Your attacks are fast, but mine are faster, and anyways brute force doesn't work against us."

He does not say his attacks are faster.

Well he was blitzed by the initial movement but he had a perception just before he was hit.

So? I'm still not seeing a reason for us to disregard the multiplier here.

Or it's just that his body wears down easier than before. It's like replacing a slow 64 GB card with a fast 32 GB card. The latter performs better with what it has, but it hits its limit quicker.

Or this is just your own headcanon that goes against both common sense and what the series tells us directly.

It's inconsistent with someone that never saw FP Lee. Otherwise it's fine. It's shown, stated, and presented that Lee is stronger here than he was previously.

It's really not, but we're going in circles with this, so it'd be best if you got other staff members' opinions on this.

Lee doesn't scale to Kimimaro's reaction speed, but he scales to his combat speed. Makes sense since reactions tend to be higher than combat speed. Heck, Kimimaro's even able to dodge Gaara who can somewhat keep up with CM2 Kimimaro so that's really not much of an antifeat.

Kimimaro's combat speed is also MHS, and Lee scales to neither regardless.

I see the implication that she pushed Temari to mid diff from her landing some hits despite being at a matchup disadvantage.

I do not.

I mean he only refers to it as the Sand Shield in the context of its defense. Otherwise as shown in the scans you sent it's referred to as just "sand."

Because.....it's....made up of sand. It's sand. But as far as an official name for it, we only have the 'Sand Shield'.

I'd think having at least one offensive feat on the profile can't really be a bad thing.

It can be if it's misleading, which would be the case here. Putting that feat in the speed section would imply that Gaara overwhelmed Kimimaro there due to speed, when that was just not the case. It was the AOE that caught him.

It's in the reaction speed part of his rating

Yes, because a single feat could have multiple facets to it. In this case, Gaara reacted to Kimimaro and sent the sand over (reaction speed), and the sand intercepted Kimimaro (movement speed for the sand).

Maybe not top top tier, but at least up there.

In a village that has thousands of Shinobi, sure, he's a "top tier", but that doesn't actually say much for our purposes here.

Disagree but as has been said multiple times we'll save Kakashi for later.

Sure, but this isn't really about Kakashi himself. It's about whether or not P1 KN0 Naruto scales to him, which is a Part I topic.

Anyway, I feel like this debate has reached its natural conclusion. I think we've both said our piece, and I just don't see much value in continuing a back and forth just for the sake of it. Seems like a waste of both of our respective time. So, in my opinion, it's time to leave this up to the other staff and knowledgeable members present.
Although, of course, I'll address any point that needs further elaboration or anything of the sort. But, yeah, I think it's time we start wrapping this up and just get to working on Part II as soon as possible.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I do not.

Also, I'd like to further elaborate on this -- Just in case it wasn't clear enough why I disagreed with it.

The most important thing to keep in mind here is that this fight was, entirely, off-screen. We know next to nothing regarding how it actually went down. We don't know how Temari got those, very minor, scuff marks.
Did Tenten keep up with her physically? We don't know.
Did Tenten keep up with her using weapons? We don't know.
Did Tenten just summon a bunch of weapons or used a sort of Danmaku booby trap type move to get her with the AOE? Maybe, we see a bunch of weapons all over the floor, but again, we don't really know.

All we know for sure is that Tenten was defeated pretty soundly. That's it. There is no reason for Tenten to scale to her in speed. There's simply too many unknowns for us to make that assertion.

 

[Godernet]

Slayers case is far less assumptive as far as the Neji and Tenten arguments are concerned. Although I can agree with Baseline Jounin scaling superior to Neji.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Spoiler: Neji? More like Nejslow!...Ok I'll leave

First of all, I didn’t even make a claim about what Guy was saying, I said it doesn’t contradict that stats that we gave. I notice that you left out the fact that Guy made that statement after Lee used Shunshin, so he’s not referring to Lee’s base speed like you’re trying to argue.

Like I said, "he said that after Lee performed both a movement speed feat and combat speed feat," and at the very least that would put Lee's Shunshin combat speed above Neji (though I don't really think of combat speed as Shunshin alterable in the first place).

In movement speed, sure.

In speed, no specification of category.

And, as I said in my original reply, Lee scales above Neji in movement speed, Neji scales to his Gates in combat speed. You’re creating a contradiction where there isn’t any.

I agree there's no contradiction. Lee's faster than Neji. Neji's overall stronger. Not that weird. It's like Hashirama vs BSM Naruto or going by this CRT, Neji and Kidomaru.

Crazy how when he did that with Naruto, it was immediately followed by him, y’know, actually rotating. It’s implied he was going to do the same against Kidomaru, but he couldn’t since the rotation got caught in his webs.

Yeah but what I'm saying is that the chakra would stop Lee's momentum and in that moment that he's vulnerable and not moving Neji can **** him up with Rotation.

Neji’s combat speed with Shunshin would be higher, sure, but if you actually look at the sandbox, you’ll see that his HHS+ is specifically for movement speed with Shunshin. You haven’t provided any evidence that suggests his Shunshin movement speed would be greater than his normal combat speed.

Neji's movement speed~KM0 Naruto's movement speed~Neji's combat speed. Like I said from the start. It's really blatant.

Naruto reacts to Neji starting to move (again, his movement speed isn’t MHS, only his combat and reaction speed), he doesn’t react at all when Neji actually starts landing hits on him. Nothing suggests Naruto can react to his combat speed.

Of course he's not gonna be dodging after Neji starts hitting him. That's how a combo works, when you start getting hit you're gonna be disoriented briefly and as the hits keep raining down on you you're gonna continue to be "stun locked." If you wanna be technical, he does have reactions of pain during the assault.

The only argument I can somewhat agree with is the idea of scaling the baseline jōnin above Neji, since he’s stated to be chūnin level. Anything else, I completely disagree with.

I mean if nothing else I'd take the jonin and CM2 Sound Four (and whoever scales to them) being MHS (which I agree with anyways but for other reasons).

Spoiler: Bringing this war to a close

Ite I'm gonna be more focused given the part at the end

There is. The fact that in every relevant interaction prior to that point was Naruto getting blitzed and overwhelmed by Neji goes against the notion that Naruto is remotely close to him. So that's the "consistency" criteria not met. Then when you couple that with the fact that Naruto only got him there by catching him off guard, and it just makes the scaling there really shaky.

Who says running is the only requirement to build speed? Flying achieves the same thing.

Not to mention, the Chidori/Raikiri doesn't require running for the speed amp to kick in. Remember, it completely unusable without the Sharingan. Not just when they're running, but in all of its variations, period. It can't be used without a sharingan no matter what. That wouldn't be the case if they could just use it like a lightning sword or something, and the speed amp was only exclusive to the "you need to run up to your opponent" version. The thrust in and of itself has those effects. It's why Naruto was able to counter Sasuke here, for example. The thrust itself is so fast it creates tunnel vision without the Sharingan boosting reactions.

Not concrete/important for me to argue further atp, maybe I'll make a CRT about it in the future

That's your assumption. You're presupposing that without the statement actually saying that at all. It makes a general claim, and then goes into the specifics of what gets enhanced after the "such as". And, as luck would have it, those examples mentioned are perfectly consistent with what we see. It boosting all aspects of speed, however, is not something we see. That's about it.

Because it quite simply says that the Sharingan boosts ALL aspects of combat power. It doesn't say it boosts combat power, boosts some/many aspects, or anything like that. Just all aspects. It's not an assumption to say that all means all, it's just reading the statement. The such as is not a limiter at all. If a statement about Sage Mode says that it boosts all aspects of combat power, including strength, speed, and sensing, are we to assume it's excluding durability or stamina since it doesn't mention them?

Except it very much does. Base Sasuke is comparable to Base Naruto and the Juubi clones while EMS Sasuke is MKCM Naruto level and vastly outspeeds the Juubi clones. This is a P2 example yes, but the Sharingan is still the Sharingan. It's not gonna change its basic properties. "And hasn't it just been accepted verse wide that the Sharingan boosts AP and combat speed?" Like there was a CRT where this was officially accepted.

He does not say his attacks are faster.

So? I'm still not seeing a reason for us to disregard the multiplier here.

Or this is just your own headcanon that goes against both common sense and what the series tells us directly.

It's really not, but we're going in circles with this, so it'd be best if you got other staff members' opinions on this.

Again, Gaara only sees Lee when he's already nerfed. That's not sufficient proof against something as blatant as this. Also this isn't really the argument I prefer, but Lee didn't use the 5th Gate against Kimimaro, which he did against Gaara, and could be the greater speed and sharpness from the CE he's referring to.

Sure other opinions would be cool.

Kimimaro's combat speed is also MHS, and Lee scales to neither regardless.

What about a middle ground of possibly higher (/MHS if Neji highball goes through) since Lee does have a pretty blatant feat and 2 statements placing him higher than he was previously, and even if you don't think it's logical which is understandable, there's enough evidence for the meta to not say it's totally implausible.

I do not.

Because.....it's....made up of sand. It's sand. But as far as an official name for it, we only have the 'Sand Shield'.

I mean that's kinda my point. Calling it just sand is an obvious way of signaling to anyone reading the profile that it refers to the general speed he can manipulate sand, whether for offense or defense. Adding the extra word that suggests it's about the defensive aspect just leads to unnecessary confusion.

It can be if it's misleading, which would be the case here. Putting that feat in the speed section would imply that Gaara overwhelmed Kimimaro there due to speed, when that was just not the case. It was the AOE that caught him.

Could say something like "Tagged CS1 Kimimaro with Sand Tsunami, but it's likely that the sheer size of the attack contributed to Kimimaro being unable to dodge, rather than him being purely overwhelmed by its speed."

Yes, because a single feat could have multiple facets to it. In this case, Gaara reacted to Kimimaro and sent the sand over (reaction speed), and the sand intercepted Kimimaro (movement speed for the sand).

In a village that has thousands of Shinobi, sure, he's a "top tier", but that doesn't actually say much for our purposes here.

Sure, but this isn't really about Kakashi himself. It's about whether or not P1 KN0 Naruto scales to him, which is a Part I topic.

Isn't that exactly what I was arguing about in the first place...? I said Naruto scales to LoW Kakashi, not P2 Kakashi, you said later cause that's just how Kakashi's profile is set up rn, and I said ok. I'm fine with deliberating more about Kakashi and Naruto cause I think the likes of Kid 3T Sasuke scaling above FKS Kakashi is pretty absurd, I'm just confused.

 

[Godernet]

Making hypotheticals in how Neji and Lee would interact in combat is just less reliable than just going off what the story tells and shows us.

KN0 Nard with relative speed to Neji and inferior Taijutsu to Lee was able to match Rotation and beat Neji despite it.

So this argument that Rotation would 100% circumvent the need for Neji to be that fast as Lee is pretty weak especially when Guy and Lee both feel that the reverse Lotus is the key to beating Neji.

If Neji wasn’t relative if not superior to prior versions of Lee, there would be barely a reason to risk destroying his body for a gigantic speed increase rather than Guy, one of the greatest taijutsu practitioners in the verse and someone with unshakable belief in Lee, providing Lee with strategy or even advise to avoid with Rotation if Lee really was that much faster.

Rotation also being something that requires Neji to physically react and spin makes it even less likely that he’s far beneath 1st Gate Lee in combat speed.

There’s just too much narrative implications and statements from reliable sources for Lee(pre Hidden Lotus) ~ Neji to ignore in favor or assumptions or headcanon.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Making hypotheticals in how Neji and Lee would interact in combat is just less reliable than just going off what the story tells and shows us.

I agree, which is why I said in the first place that the how is less important than the what, this whole Rotation point is just a side argument.

KN0 Nard with relative speed to Neji and inferior Taijutsu to Lee was able to match Rotation and beat Neji despite it.

There's no proof that 2nd Gate Lee's AP is above KM0 Naruto's even if he's faster. And he didn't match/overpower Rotation, it's literally a point that the Rotation redirected the force onto Naruto and knocked him out but that didn't matter since it was a clone. Also, since you brought up Neji vs Naruto, that reminded me that in that situation, Neji just had to move his arm in reaction to Naruto to use Rotation and cancel out his charge, which kinda supports my point that if Neji just had MHS reaction speed, he could counter the Front Lotus with Rotation, since by current standards what he did against Naruto would be reaction speed.

So this argument that Rotation would 100% circumvent the need for Neji to be that fast as Lee is pretty weak especially when Guy and Lee both feel that the reverse Lotus is the key to beating Neji.

If Neji wasn’t relative if not superior to prior versions of Lee, there would be barely a reason to risk destroying his body for a gigantic speed increase rather than Guy, one of the greatest taijutsu practitioners in the verse and someone with unshakable belief in Lee, providing Lee with strategy or even advise to avoid with Rotation if Lee really was that much faster.

Except Lee is really not that versatile, he doesn't exactly have a method to beat Neji other than simply overwhelming him with physicals, and it's very very difficult to get past Rotation if you can't stonewall blitz Neji or straight up punch through it.

Rotation also being something that requires Neji to physically react and spin makes it even less likely that he’s far beneath 1st Gate Lee in combat speed.

Except that as I've learned quite thoroughly through arguing with Slayer, reaction speed is not nearly as limited a speed category as you might think (though even prior to this I would consider activating Rotation in response to Lee charging reaction speed).

There’s just too much narrative implications and statements from reliable sources for Lee(pre Hidden Lotus) ~ Neji to ignore in favor or assumptions or headcanon.

I don't see any assumptions or headcanon here. I just see a straightforward statement from a very reliable source that Lee>Neji in speed, and from the same person who agrees that he can't beat Neji without the 3rd Gate or above, meaning he's not simply coping about Lee.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

I think probably my key point in Lee vs Neji in speed would be this. Whether you take Guy's statement as being about movement speed, combat speed, or both, it doesn't matter. If it's combat speed or both, then obviously my point is proven, but even if it hypothetically was about movement, that means Base Lee's movement speed is faster than Neji's movement speed, and thus KM0 Naruto's movement speed, which outsped Neji's shuriken throw.

 

[Godernet]

There's no proof that 2nd Gate Lee's AP is above KM0 Naruto's even if he's faster.

Nothing as specific as “Lee needs more power to get through rotation to beat Neji” is ever said or even implied in the series. It requires several assumptions to get to that conclusion rather than just saying they’re relative in speed.

Not to mention iirc Guy specifically highlights the high speed of the reverse lotus being the decisive factor in it beating Neji.

And he didn't match/overpower Rotation, it's literally a point that the Rotation redirected the force onto Naruto and knocked him out but that didn't matter since it was a clone.

He didn’t knock him out. nard just left a clone for him to believe it was him while he burrowed through the ground. Not that it matters to the argument.

Also, since you brought up Neji vs Naruto, that reminded me that in that situation, Neji just had to move his arm in reaction to Naruto to use Rotation and cancel out his charge, which kinda supports my point that if Neji just had MHS reaction speed, he could counter the Front Lotus with Rotation, since by current standards what he did against Naruto would be reaction speed.

the argument that it could possibly just be reactionary speed rather than combat speed is almost entirely supported by hypothetical.

Except Lee is really not that versatile, he doesn't exactly have a method to beat Neji other than simply overwhelming him with physicals,

Which is exactly how Naruto beat him. No one ever said you need to be versatile to beat Neji.

Except that as I've learned quite thoroughly through arguing with Slayer, reaction speed is not nearly as limited a speed category as you might think (though even prior to this I would consider activating Rotation in response to Lee charging reaction speed).

In a hypothetical scenario where Neji only spam activates Rotation in response to Lees movement speed. Which is an assumption for how the fight would go.

Like let’s be frr, Rotation is never mentioned by Lee or Guy as the reason he can’t beat Neji, we just know that he probably can't beat Neji without hidden lotus.

I don't see any assumptions or headcanon here. I just see a straightforward statement from a very reliable source that Lee>Neji in speed,

Using “In terms of speed Lee can’t be surpassed”
To mean Base Lee > Neji is an assumption.

Because not only is Lee still hiding 5 giant speed amps

He said this after a demonstration of Lees ability to outrun Gaaras sand.

And this statement can’t even be used as a holistic one for every speed because Neji is still Lees peer whether you believe in reactionary or combat speeds.

If Base Lee was faster than him in every regard reactions, travel, combat. Neji would cooked by the 5x first gate let alone the third. Neji has to scale to him in some regard for him to require three gates because Lee and Guy both believe he’s that good.

so Guys statement applying to Base Lee already doesn’t work. If anything it’s just him glazing his favorite student(which he tends to do because he also called him unrivaled two pages ago.)

I think probably my key point in Lee vs Neji in speed would be this. Whether you take Guy's statement as being about movement speed, combat speed, or both, it doesn't matter. If it's combat speed or both, then obviously my point is proven, but even if it hypothetically was about movement, that means Base Lee's movement speed is faster than Neji's movement speed, and thus KM0 Naruto's movement speed, which outsped Neji's shuriken throw.

Neji throwing a shuriken and Naruto dodging it from far away isn’t going to carry the same speed as Neji physically attacking with his hands. Not to mention KN0 Nard would have to have MHS reaction and combat speeds to keep up with Neji and still barely got out before the shurikens landed.

That point doesn’t work.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Nothing as specific as “Lee needs more power to get through rotation to beat Neji” is ever said or even implied in the series. It requires several assumptions to get to that conclusion rather than just saying they’re relative in speed.

As I said, "the how is less important than the what, this whole Rotation point is just a side argument." But I'd agree that AP probably isn't the deciding factor given that Guy highlights speed. Which leads me to believe even 5th Gate Lee wouldn't simply plow through Rotation but would just blitz Neji before he can do anything about it.

Not to mention iirc Guy specifically highlights the high speed of the reverse lotus being the decisive factor in it beating Neji.

He didn’t knock him out. nard just left a clone for him to believe it was him while he burrowed through the ground. Not that it matters to the argument.

It's kinda made ambiguous when he made the clone, but considering it got banged up, it should've been hit by the explosion. Though either way, the point remains that Naruto didn't beat Neji via simply getting past Rotation.

the argument that it could possibly just be reactionary speed rather than combat speed is almost entirely supported by hypothetical.

It's an interpretation that's consistent with all statements. If he had High Hypersonic+ combat speed and Massively Hypersonic reaction speed, there'd be no issues. Base Lee could be faster than Neji while still losing to him without the 3rd Gate. It fits so well.

Which is exactly how Naruto beat him. No one ever said you need to be versatile to beat Neji.

Except it's not, he punched him when he was offguard and confident of victory to win.

In a hypothetical scenario where Neji only spam activates Rotation in response to Lees movement speed. Which is an assumption for how the fight would go.

If I said he simply dodges Lee's attack then counterattacks as a reaction, nothing changes about my point. Either way it'd be his reaction speed helping him beat Lee, not his combat speed.

Like let’s be frr, Rotation is never mentioned by Lee or Guy as the reason he can’t beat Neji, we just know that he probably can't beat Neji without hidden lotus.

Using “In terms of speed Lee can’t be surpassed”
To mean Base Lee > Neji is an assumption.

Because not only is Lee still hiding 5 giant speed amps

Which are not related to the statement made immediately after Base Weightless Lee performed a speed feat.

He said this after a demonstration of Lees ability to outrun Gaaras sand.

And spin kick Gaara faster than his sand shield could move to protect him.

And this statement can’t even be used as a holistic one for every speed because Neji is still Lees peer whether you believe in reactionary or combat speeds.

If Base Lee was faster than him in every regard reactions, travel, combat. Neji would cooked by the 5x first gate let alone the third. Neji has to scale to him in some regard for him to require three gates because Lee and Guy both believe he’s that good.

Probably not reactions given what I mentioned above, but his movement and combat speed being marginally above Neji's is perfectly fine.

so Guys statement applying to Base Lee already doesn’t work. If anything it’s just him glazing his favorite student(which he tends to do because he also called him unrivaled two pages ago.)

He said that the point of Lee's training was to become unbeatable, that's not the same as a direct claim of Lee being unsurpassed in speed.

Neji throwing a shuriken and Naruto dodging it from far away isn’t going to carry the same speed as Neji physically attacking with his hands. Not to mention KN0 Nard would have to have MHS reaction and combat speeds to keep up with Neji and still barely got out before the shurikens landed.

That point doesn’t work.

Projectiles are treated as scaling to the user I'm quite sure, and if anything should be faster since that's how it tends to be in real life (people can generally throw things faster than they can physically move). Also that's kinda just helping my point. If these shuriken are so fast and Naruto's movement speed still outran them, how is there a 5+ times difference between his movement and combat speed? His Shunshin movement speed if anything is faster than his combat speed given this feat, which is how Shunshin is usually portrayed in the series anyways.

 

[Godernet]

As I said, "the how is less important than the what, this whole Rotation point is just a side argument." But I'd agree that AP probably isn't the deciding factor given that Guy highlights speed. Which leads me to believe even 5th Gate Lee wouldn't simply plow through Rotation but would just blitz Neji before he can do anything about it.

Agreed

It's kinda made ambiguous when he made the clone, but considering it got banged up, it should've been hit by the explosion. Though either way, the point remains that Naruto didn't beat Neji via simply getting past Rotation.

He beat Neji by countering Rotation and tricking him when he was assured he won. Either way he had to deal with it before beating him.

It's an interpretation that's consistent with all statements. If he had High Hypersonic+ combat speed and Massively Hypersonic reaction speed, there'd be no issues. Base Lee could be faster than Neji while still losing to him without the 3rd Gate. It fits so well.

Slayer and Tracers interpretation also works with all statements if Guy is just talking about running speed(which is still more valid than the Lee being superior in all speeds argument since we know that isn’t true and trying to single out reaction speed vs combat speeds from his vague statement just leads to headcanon.)

Except it's not, he punched him when he was offguard and confident of victory to win.

Confident because he thought he had just beaten Naruto with the rotation. Either way this point doesn’t help either stance.

If I said he simply dodges Lee's attack then counterattacks as a reaction, nothing changes about my point.

Except if your point is still a hypothetical of how the fight would go.

Either way it'd be his reaction speed helping him beat Lee, not his combat speed.

Assuming that’s how Neji would beat Lee and not with a flurry of gentle fist strikes.

Because again, neither rotation nor h2h was specified in why Neji is better than 2nd Gate Lee.

Which are not related to the statement made immediately after Base Weightless Lee performed a speed feat.

The phrase “can’t be surpassed” is not only vague but isn’t limited to one form just because he performs a feat in it.

If someone became faster than Base Lee they still wouldn’t surpass him in speed because he can still amp it far higher.

Besides him referring to 5th Gate Lee makes far more sense since he remains the fastest non Jounin/Kage until the end of Part 1.

Probably not reactions given what I mentioned above, but his movement and combat speed being marginally above Neji's is perfectly fine.

Marginally better doesn’t make sense if you are arguing for the “unsurpassable speed” comment.

He said that the point of Lee's training was to become unbeatable, that's not the same as a direct claim of Lee being unsurpassed in speed.

Except that statement is not direct at all, he doesn’t say what type of speed, who he’s talking about that can’t surpass his speed(unless we’re saying Lee > Guy and Kakashi since they were also there.) the statement is pretty vague.

Not to mention unsurpassable is a greatly exaggerated way to describe Lee since Guy has no full understanding of every other teams potential for growth, this especially shows when Sasuke matches and arguably surpasses Lee in a month.

Projectiles are treated as scaling to the user I'm quite sure, and if anything should be faster since that's how it tends to be in real life (people can generally throw things faster than they can physically move). Also that's kinda just helping my point. If these shuriken are so fast and Naruto's movement speed still outran them, how is there a 5+ times difference between his movement and combat speed?

Let me rephrase

Naruto dodging something when he has reactions on par with Nejis combat speed and is at a distance isn’t as impressive as something like dodging gentle fist strikes at close proximity. Naruto gets far more time to react as they approach and doesn’t need to have MHS running speed to avoid it.

A good example is during Konoha Crush when transformed Gaara is able to physically keep up with Sasuke while he’s using Chidori yet Base Naruto from a distance can dodge projectiles from him.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Rather unrelated to the topic at hand but this is a pretty good speed feat for Hayate.

Agreed

He beat Neji by countering Rotation and tricking him when he was assured he won. Either way he had to deal with it before beating him.

This whole tangent is kinda pointless cause there's no scaling between KM0 Naruto and Lee in terms of AP.

Slayer and Tracers interpretation also works with all statements if Guy is just talking about running speed(which is still more valid than the Lee being superior in all speeds argument since we know that isn’t true and trying to single out reaction speed vs combat speeds from his vague statement just leads to headcanon.

Lemme sum up my argument to respond to this: Lee takes off his weights, shows off his movement and combat speed (getting around Gaara's sand then jumping up, spinning, and kicking him before the sand reacts), and in reference to this Guy says Lee's speed is unsurpassed. Hence, the context strongly points to Base Lee's movement and combat speed being above Neji's.

Confident because he thought he had just beaten Naruto with the rotation. Either way this point doesn’t help either stance.

Except if your point is still a hypothetical of how the fight would go.

Sure I'm just offering ways in which Neji can be slower than Lee and still beat him, and if you agree those are valid, then my argument for it holds up.

Assuming that’s how Neji would beat Lee and not with a flurry of gentle fist strikes.

And just like you're saying to me, I could counter by saying that's a hypothetical, and not one supported by statements unlike mine.

Because again, neither rotation nor h2h was specified in why Neji is better than 2nd Gate Lee.

The phrase “can’t be surpassed” is not only vague but isn’t limited to one form just because he performs a feat in it.

He's commenting based on the fight though. Why would he specifically say it at this point rather than from the beginning or when he's actually showing the speed that Guy's talking about? And speaking of that, another thing that comes to mind is that everyone saw Neji vs Hinata, but no one disagreed with Guy saying that Lee's speed is unsurpassed despite only seeing Base Lee.

If someone became faster than Base Lee they still wouldn’t surpass him in speed because he can still amp it far higher.

That's a very different context than Guy presently saying Base Lee is unsurpassed while he's demonstrating his speed.

Besides him referring to 5th Gate Lee makes far more sense since he remains the fastest non Jounin/Kage until the end of Part 1.

I disagree with that but either way that doesn't really defeat my argument. Guy doesn't have knowledge on the future, he's just commenting based on what he knows.

Marginally better doesn’t make sense if you are arguing for the “unsurpassable speed” comment.

Can't be surpassed =/= leagues above everyone else. If Neji was a 9 and Lee was a 10, Neji still wouldn't surpass him. If your point is that Guy wouldn't say it's impossible for anyone to catch up with him if the difference is small, the raws don't actually quite say he can't be surpassed, rather it's more just saying no one can match his speed and/or that he's not inferior to anyone else.
リーはスピードでは誰にも負けない…
Lee is unbeatable when it comes to speed...

Except that statement is not direct at all, he doesn’t say what type of speed, who he’s talking about that can’t surpass his speed(unless we’re saying Lee > Guy and Kakashi since they were also there.) the statement is pretty vague.

Considering he's in a tournament of genin, it's most likely in reference to the genin. If his speed is number one in the setting he's in, then that's all that really matters at the moment.

Not to mention unsurpassable is a greatly exaggerated way to describe Lee since Guy has no full understanding of every other teams potential for growth, this especially shows when Sasuke matches and arguably surpasses Lee in a month.

That's fine, but he knows of current Neji and Lee. I'm not making any comparison between Lee and other members of the Chunin Exams.

Let me rephrase

Naruto dodging something when he has reactions on par with Nejis combat speed and is at a distance isn’t as impressive as something like dodging gentle fist strikes at close proximity. Naruto gets far more time to react as they approach and doesn’t need to have MHS running speed to avoid it.

I mean that's what I was referring to earlier with how the site treats projectile feats. Even if from a distance, you scale to the user via scaling to their projectiles. There's plenty of examples in this sandbox even, and other feats that involve reacting to someone from a decent distance away. Heck, Kidomaru has dodging Neji's kunai from several dozen meters away as justification for MHS reactions. I don't really agree with that, but considering how close the shuriken were to Naruto in this instance before Naruto ran out of the way, it would require pretty relative speed. So I really don't see how this feat doesn't fit in with other accepted ones. It's a much more relative distance than a lot of ones there, and thus has even more of a case for being used than those.

A good example is during Konoha Crush when transformed Gaara is able to physically keep up with Sasuke while he’s using Chidori yet Base Naruto from a distance can dodge projectiles from him.

And for that Base Naruto is considered as having High Hypersonic+ reaction speed.

Anyways that's gonna be my last response for tonight, going to sleep soon.

 

[karo_senpaii]

Hello everyone!

In case you couldn't tell by the title, this will officially mark the beginning of the Verse wide Naruto Speed Revisions. This moment has eluded us for the better part of five years, but it's finally upon us.

So strap in, grab your popcorn, and let's do this!

This will be uncharacteristically short and barebones because, honestly, there's just not that much to say or explain.

The Sandbox that has all of the changes speaks for itself. It includes all of the affected characters, with the changes being indexed in profile format, so ya'll can see what everything will look like. As with previous revisions, highlighting the changes individually is a pointless endeavor because we redid everything from scratch here. Not even the Calculations were spared, as we're working with an entirely new set of calcs and values.

Speaking of which, here are all of the new calcs and values. To specifically highlight the values we're actively using, they are as follows.

The New Values We're Working With:

• Sakura Catches Sasuke from Falling: 142.640625 m/s = Mach 0.416 (Subsonic)
• Zaku Blocks Shuriken: 178.208821 m/s = Mach 0.519 (Subsonic+)
• Haku Dodges Kunai from Sasuke: 284.880212928 m/s = Mach 0.831 (Subsonic+)
• Gaara Blocks Yashamaru's Explosion: 20010.0723 m/s = Mach 58.338 (High Hypersonic+)
• Kakashi intercepts/blocks Kakuzu's False Darkness: 2737661.18008 m/s = Mach 7981.519475451894 (Massively Hypersonic+)

Everything else in the Calculations Sandbox is pretty much just supporting calcs.

With all of that out of the way, there's a couple of minor notes I'd like to make to avoid any confusion.

Minor Notes to Keep in Mind:

• As some of you may notice, some of the characters in the sandbox had more than their Speed ratings adjusted. This is strictly a Speed Revision, so what gives? So, basically, in those rare exceptions, we thought it'd be fine to make minor adjustments to all of their stats because the changes we made to their speed happen to affect more than just their speed. So instead of leaving them with incomplete profiles for god knows how long, we decided to just get it all over with here, since they're isolated cases that affect no characters outside of themselves, really. For example, Hinata and Tenten were Unknown in all stats for the longest time. We found an avenue to, perhaps, give them some scaling. It affects more than just their speed. So we just nipped it in the bud. That's about it.
• Some characters that you'd think would be handled in the Part II speed revisions, such as Haku and Kakashi, are present in the Sandbox. Isn't this supposed to just be a Part I Revision? Well, yes, but these particular characters happened to affect certain characters within this revision's scope. Kakashi in particular is going to be a quintessential figure for these Speed Revisions moving forward, so we thought we'd update his value while we're at it.
• What happened to Forest of Death CS1 Sasuke's Supersonic calc? Well, it's simple. The feat the calc is based on isn't valid, and here's why. The calc assumes that Zaku's using a sound wave to attack Sasuke, but he is not. Zaku's technique allows him to alternate between Air Pressure and Sound Waves. To increase the power he's pumping out, he can release a blast of "100% Air Pressure, 0% Sound Waves". He constantly switches between the two types of attacks in the midst of combat to suit his needs in any particular situation. Now, against Sasuke, he very clearly released the more powerful Air Pressure version, as we can clearly see by the damage he causes to the environment, which the DB makes note of. Oh, and please, don't bring up the fact that the attack had "Supersonic" in its title. That'd just be a classic example of the Nominal Fallacy.

With all of that out of the way, I'd like to give special thanks to two people.
1) @LordTracer. He has been my main partner in this project. We split the workload between us, and he's been a key part in why this revision turned out the way it did. Literally couldn't have done it without him.
2) @KingTempest: I'd also like to extend special thanks to KT, as he's the one who recalced all of the feats we'll be using in this revision. He also helped a bit with the sandbox as well, and has been with us behind the scenes from the beginning discussing everything and whatnot.
Massive thanks to those two, as I'm not sure if this revision would've even happened without their help.

Now then, let's get this party started, shall we?

Votes:
Agree: Dark_Soul20189, Arc7Kuroi, LordTracer, Vzearr, ssgengar, Excellence616, DarkDragonMedeus, SlendVeny, Shadyboi0, Dalesean027, KingTempest, That_moron2, LordGriffin1000, LuffyRuffy46307, NeoKingOfLight, BlastX,
Disagree:
Neutral:

I forgot to ask. Whatever happened to the naruto blitzing thugs calc?

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I forgot to ask. Whatever happened to the naruto blitzing thugs calc?

It's a Substitution Jutsu feat, aka. Too illogical to calc I think. And it was also incorrect mathematically speaking iirc, but I don't quite remember why.

 

[karo_senpaii]

It's a Substitution Jutsu feat, aka. Too illogical to calc I think. And it was also incorrect mathematically speaking iirc, but I don't quite remember why.

Last question. Shouldn't hinata somewhat scale to neji? I mean they battled for quite a while . Even though he wasn't bloodlusted then it was clear he was trying to make her incapable of fighting so she would break and quit on her own

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Last question. Shouldn't hinata somewhat scale to neji? I mean they battled for quite a while . Even though he wasn't bloodlusted then it was clear he was trying to make her incapable of fighting so she would break and quit on her own

Well. we currently treat that fight as Neji not going all out and just toying with Hinata. Her current AP section has this justification.

Unknown (Fought against Neji Hyūga, but all of her attacks were completely ineffective[16])

Now, I'm not claiming that this is some objective truth. but it is kinda widely accepted that Neji was casually toying with her in that fight and that Hinata just isn't really at that Chunin Exams top tier level. And, the thing is, we either take her keeping up with him at face value and outright scale her, or we treat it like we currently do. There really is no in between there. So, if you believe she should scale, I suggest making a CRT for it because it's an issue that kinda extends past speed. That's just my two cents on it.

Because it quite simply says that the Sharingan boosts ALL aspects of combat power. It doesn't say it boosts combat power, boosts some/many aspects, or anything like that. Just all aspects. It's not an assumption to say that all means all, it's just reading the statement. The such as is not a limiter at all. If a statement about Sage Mode says that it boosts all aspects of combat power, including strength, speed, and sensing, are we to assume it's excluding durability or stamina since it doesn't mention them?

Yes, we would, because it then goes onto elaborate exactly what it enhances in that case. Sage Mode is such a bad example too tbh, because SM has been repeatedly stated to boost Ninjutsu, Genjutsu, and Taijutsu. And we've also had examples of it specifically boosting SS, Durability, LS, and reaction speed.
It's far too specific with how it boosts people for it to be a good comparison here.

Except it very much does. Base Sasuke is comparable to Base Naruto and the Juubi clones while EMS Sasuke is MKCM Naruto level and vastly outspeeds the Juubi clones. This is a P2 example yes, but the Sharingan is still the Sharingan. It's not gonna change its basic properties. "And hasn't it just been accepted verse wide that the Sharingan boosts AP and combat speed?" Like there was a CRT where this was officially accepted.

I'm telling you, it hasn't been accepted. None of the profiles even have a "higher with the Sharingan/MS/EMS" in the speed sections at all.

Again, Gaara only sees Lee when he's already nerfed. That's not sufficient proof against something as blatant as this. Also this isn't really the argument I prefer, but Lee didn't use the 5th Gate against Kimimaro, which he did against Gaara, and could be the greater speed and sharpness from the CE he's referring to.

Sure other opinions would be cool.

What about a middle ground of possibly higher (/MHS if Neji highball goes through) since Lee does have a pretty blatant feat and 2 statements placing him higher than he was previously, and even if you don't think it's logical which is understandable, there's enough evidence for the meta to not say it's totally implausible.

Well, frankly, I still don't necessarily see it. Let's do the pros vs cons of Lee scaling to Kimimaro there.
Pros:

• Intercepts Kimimaro before he hits Naruto.
• Two statements backing it up, which I assume are the databook statement about him gaining a "new power" and Kimimaro saying he'll be "more difficult than the others".

Cons:

• In base, he doesn't actually manage to do anything to Kimimaro, and couldn't even land a single hit on him.
• Literally stated to be slower than before, which he does not deny and, really, only confirms if anything. And that argument about Gaara maybe referring to the 5th Gate doesn't even make sense, but you don't seem to be pushing for it all that much, so I won't get into it any further.
• If Lee was comparable to Kimimaro in base, then he should've washed him with the Front Lotus' 5x amp, but he just doesn't.
• Just, the simple logic of him having just come out of literal spine surgery making it highly unlikely that he got several times stronger and faster than before. This is supported by the fact that Tsunade implies he's still not fully recovered, which only makes sense.
• Lee's performance already has sus aspects about it, particularly in the AP department, because again, he's MUCH weaker than Kimimaro physically (With or without Kakashi scaling, just to be clear. So even if nobody in P1 scales to Kakashi, Kimimaro would still be FAR stronger than Lee). So, IMO, if one aspect of the performance (AP), is already sus or outlier-ish, then I don't see why that wouldn't be true for other aspects such as speed as well.

Before I make my final point, I want to touch up on the "pros" real quick.
So, yes, he intercepts Kimimaro. Valid feat at face value. But it's not foolproof in my eyes. Kimimaro was trying to snipe a much weaker base Naruto while his guard was down due to being distracted by Sasuke. I just don't see why he'd need to go all out in that scenario. Not to mention, he himself was caught off-guard by Lee, which is helped by the fact that Lee has HHS+ movement speed, while Kimimaro does not, so that would help him cover the distance between Kimimaro and himself rather quickly. But again, outside of this moment, when they actually engaged in head to head combat, Kimimaro utterly outclassed him and Lee could not land a single hit on him. So all that weakens this feat's validity in my eyes.

Now, onto the "he's more difficult than the others" statement. Again, it's fine at face value, but it's attached to the previous feat (which I personally don't believe is allat), and literally gets disproven 5 seconds later because Lee turned out to not be a difficult opponent for Kimimaro at all, given that he was effortlessly dealt with until he got drunk, and even then he was a minor inconvenience if anything.

Then there's the "new power" statement from the Databook. This is by far the weakest of the pros, IMO. Not only is it far too vague, but as others have said before, it could easily be referring to a multitude of other things, such as his "healed state" being a new power compared to his injured state, or even his Drunken Fist. I really don't see this as a straightforward "oh, yeah, I'm way stronger/faster than before" type statement. At least IMO.

So, now let's look at our standards for the Possibly rating.

Possibly​

Should be used to list a statistic for a character with some basis, but inconclusive due to the justification being vague or non-definitive. The probability of the justification in question for being reliable should be notable, but mild. This term should be used sparingly.

Again, this is just my interpretation, but I think the takeaway here is that we use the "Possibly" rating when two conflicting ratings that can't really be reconciled, but the "less likely one" still has enough merit to warrant a rating, even if its validity is inconclusive. As it says, the probability for it being reliable and valid should be notable.
Now, personally, I just think the cons just heavily outweigh the pros, all while the pros themselves aren't even all that solid imo. Like, the things going against aren't just more numerous, but I'd argue are also more solid and have a sturdier footing. So with that being said, I don't find this possibility notably reliable.
But, again, that's just my personal assessment. If other staff think otherwise, then that's that.

I mean that's kinda my point. Calling it just sand is an obvious way of signaling to anyone reading the profile that it refers to the general speed he can manipulate sand, whether for offense or defense. Adding the extra word that suggests it's about the defensive aspect just leads to unnecessary confusion.

Well. I think it's fine. Outside of yourself, nobody has really been confused. And now, even you know what it's referring to, so this is no longer a concern. Everyone knows that Gaara uses the same sand for offense and defense, assuming they have watched/read Naruto. Said sand has been officially referred to as the Sand Shield. As a result, I am going to call it the Sand Shield. It is that simple.

Could say something like "Tagged CS1 Kimimaro with Sand Tsunami, but it's likely that the sheer size of the attack contributed to Kimimaro being unable to dodge, rather than him being purely overwhelmed by its speed."

Except, it's not "likely". That's exactly what happened.

Isn't that exactly what I was arguing about in the first place...? I said Naruto scales to LoW Kakashi, not P2 Kakashi, you said later cause that's just how Kakashi's profile is set up rn, and I said ok.

Those were two separate debates. We were arguing about whether P1 Kakashi should scale to his P2 self or not, but that was short lived because we're handling it in the next thread.
Then there was also the Databook statement you brought up about "will they ever surpass Kakashi?", which spurred another debate regarding if P1 Naruto and Sasuke should scale to Kakashi at all, which is what I thought this was about.
But it's okay, I think I understand what you meant now. You seem to agree with LoW KN0 Naruto scaling above Kakashi (I think?), which for the purposes of this thread is all that's really relevant.

I'm fine with deliberating more about Kakashi and Naruto cause I think the likes of Kid 3T Sasuke scaling above FKS Kakashi is pretty absurd, I'm just confused.

That's textbook incredulity, and is entirely irrelevant.

---

Anyway, this one's my final response fr. We haven't had any real disagreements here, asides from Sparkle of course, and have had sufficient staff approval for a while now. At this point, we're going to adjust the ratings and justifications for the baseline Jonin as previously discussed and agreed upon, then probably get to applying this revision I guess. So if someone has something to say, now's the time ig.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Alright I'll let the remaining points of contention go, and will list what you agreed on/called for others' opinions on soon, just gonna make two more statements

Except, it's not "likely". That's exactly what happened.

Sure, so what about "Tagged CS1 Kimimaro with Sand Tsunami, but the sheer size of the attack contributed to Kimimaro being unable to dodge, rather than him being purely overwhelmed by its speed."

Then there was also the Databook statement you brought up about "will they ever surpass Kakashi?", which spurred another debate regarding if P1 Naruto and Sasuke should scale to Kakashi at all, which is what I thought this was about.
But it's okay, I think I understand what you meant now. You seem to agree with LoW KN0 Naruto scaling above Kakashi (I think?), which for the purposes of this thread is all that's really relevant.

My argument was Post-training P1 Kakashi>LoW KM0 Naruto>Rusty LoW Kakashi

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Alright I'll let the remaining points of contention go, and will list what you agreed on/called for others' opinions on soon, just gonna make two more statements

Sweet.

Sure, so what about "Tagged CS1 Kimimaro with Sand Tsunami, but the sheer size of the attack contributed to Kimimaro being unable to dodge, rather than him being purely overwhelmed by its speed."

Y'know, I genuinely don't see the value in adding this at all, because it really has nothing to do with its speed necessarily. That attack could've been Hypersonic and he would've still been caught by it because it's so massive and his movement/travel speed ain't allat, but fine. I'll add something to this effect since it's harmless enough.

My argument was Post-training P1 Kakashi>LoW KM0 Naruto>Rusty LoW Kakashi

That's fine then. Like I said before, if Early to Mid Part II (and/or Post-Training) Kakashi is deemed to be faster than his LoW self during the next thread, then your contention here will automatically take care of itself. In that case, LoW Kakashi will scale to.....some other value we'll decide on when the time comes, and Naruto will obviously just scale to whatever that value ends up being.

 

[BlastX]

Nice to see everything working out here.

 

[KingTempest]

Now, I'm not claiming that this is some objective truth. but it is kinda widely accepted that Neji was casually toying with her in that fight and that Hinata just isn't really at that Chunin Exams top tier level. And, the thing is, we either take her keeping up with him at face value and outright scale her, or we treat it like we currently do. There really is no in between there. So, if you believe she should scale, I suggest making a CRT for it because it's an issue that kinda extends past speed. That's just my two cents on it.

I'm fine with a making a thread for this, as I disagree with how we currently handle it

Also I don't care to change what's in there nor do I agree fully with Sparkle's changes, but I have a few gripes with the counter to the Lee argument

Cons:

• In base, he doesn't actually manage to do anything to Kimimaro, and couldn't even land a single hit on him.

Kimimaro's known for being incredible great at evasion, especially against predictable fighters who need to heavily rely on unpredictable movements in order to even tag him. Only time he was even touched was when he fought someone he couldn't predict the movements of.
This isn't a counter on speed. Kimimaro's a counter demon. The entire time, Lee's issue was never that he was too slow, it was that he was too damn predictable. Even with Gaara.

Literally the moment confirming that Kimimaro was surprised that he got a hit landed on him was when he said "he hit me".

He never says anything about the drunken fist increasing his speed, he never shames Lee's speed either. He just has an incredible evasive factor which lets him dodge everything, which is why Lee wasn't like "oh my god you're so fast", but "it's amazing I can't land a hit cause you're so agile and you have such a unique dodging style"

• If Lee was comparable to Kimimaro in base, then he should've washed him with the Front Lotus' 5x amp, but he just doesn't.

He explains that the bones absorbed the impact of the blow. The bones would be much more durable and could nullify the force of said attack.
That's exactly why the fool said "impressive speed", because the Front Lotus is extremely fast.

• Lee's performance already has sus aspects about it, particularly in the AP department, because again, he's MUCH weaker than Kimimaro physically (With or without Kakashi scaling, just to be clear. So even if nobody in P1 scales to Kakashi, Kimimaro would still be FAR stronger than Lee). So, IMO, if one aspect of the performance (AP), is already sus or outlier-ish, then I don't see why that wouldn't be true for other aspects such as speed as well.

Lee isn't much weaker than Kimimaro, we scale him much weaker than Kimimaro. He shows that he's physically able to compete with him.
And I know we don't accept these for primarily scaling, but Lee has a relative/superior physical strength ranking to Kimimaro. Very thin support, but it still exists nonetheless.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Nice to see everything working out here.

It would be, until you realize that this is nothing more than an appetizer for the Hell that is to come.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Things agreed on:

• Adding this statement to VOTE KM0 Naruto
• Speed invisible to the eye Kiba (?)
• Tayuya and Sakon formation running isn't a good feat
• Hayate is one of the best ninja in Konoha
• Hayate~Baki~Genma
• Gaara tagging CS1 Kimimaro

Things requiring outside input:

• CE Lee vs SRA Lee
• Lee vs Neji

 

[BlastX]

It would be, until you realize that this is nothing more than an appetizer for the Hell that is to come.

Probably but it's nice to see the calm before the storm.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

“Lee’s physical strength isn’t far from Kimimaro”
Isn’t this a speed thread? Regardless of if Lee and Kimimaro have comparable AP, that doesn’t mean anything for speed scaling. I guess you called it thin support anyway, so it’s not important.

 

[KingTempest]

“Lee’s physical strength isn’t far from Kimimaro”
Isn’t this a speed thread? Regardless of if Lee and Kimimaro have comparable AP, that doesn’t mean anything for speed scaling. I guess you called it thin support anyway, so it’s not important.

He tackled the argument that the performance of Lee vs Kimimaro was bad on a speed level due to the entire fight's portrayal not showing Lee keeping up.
Basically saying "Lee's strength's far inferior, his speed is probably far inferior due to that too"
I challenged that by saying "Lee's not far inferior though"

 

[Godernet]

Things requiring outside input:

• CE Lee vs SRA Lee

I think the conversation around this is done, I don't think anyone else here finds it controversial that Lee is slightly weaker post-surgery during SRA than in the CE, especially with the Gaara statement(which is absolutely not referring the the fifth gate which leaves visible changes on Lee that Gaara would have noticed.)

 

[MinatoSparkle]

KingTempest?

 

[KingTempest]

KingTempest?

..?

 

[Godernet]

..?

i think he believes that you also agree that SRA Lee could be stronger/faster than CE Lee. or at least find it contentious

 

[KingTempest]

i think he believes you also agree that SRA Lee could be stronger/faster than CE Lee. or at least find it contenscious

Oh, not at all. I wholeheartedly agree that CE Lee's > SRA Lee

 

[Godernet]

Oh, not at all. I wholeheartedly agree that CE Lee's > SRA Lee

i figured yeah, just making sure

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Oh, not at all. I wholeheartedly agree that CE Lee's > SRA Lee

But you think Lee may scale to Kimimaro?

 

[KingTempest]

But you think Lee may scale to Kimimaro?

Yeah

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Iiiiinteresting?

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Iiiiinteresting?

If only you knew half of it