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NNT AP Revision

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Honestly, I was against thread banning you from here, but the constant stonewalling and repetitive arguments that go nowhere are getting really annoying and time consuming.

@Antvasima What do you think about thread banning speed from this AP revision (not CRTs as a whole) specifically?
 
ByAsura said:
Honestly, I was against thread banning you from here, but the constant stonewalling and repetitive arguments that go nowhere are getting really annoying and time consuming.

@Antvasima What do you think about thread banning speed from this AP revision (not CRTs as a whole) specifically?
Click to expand...
I apologize I was just trying to debate also I have memory issues. I have trouble remembering things.
 
ByAsura said:
Cool, so that's just stronger than his 2nd Mark and 50% DK to some extent, hence the far higher.

Even with Assault Mode, his past self only reaches to about 2nd Mark Meliodas in terms of AP value, so again, still just stronger than his 2nd Mark and 50% DK to some extent.

Equal to Ban, who was stomped by 50% DK and Wild (someone that 50% DK was wrecking with a finger).

What about that would make me feel better? If anything it makes me feel worse because I know that I'm going to have to put up with this stonewalling for another 6 months.

Also, why do you even think that I'd feel better because of ratings on a wiki about fictional characters?

Already did.

For ****'s sake, we've been over this already. Like several times these past few days.

Zeldris had no idea about True Magic's level of power or that Meliodas was going to use it, and the form of DK he was referring to isn't at all stated. What about this is so complicated?
Click to expand...
I will unfollow the thread though if that helps
 
ByAsura said:
Honestly, I was against thread banning you from here, but the constant stonewalling and repetitive arguments that go nowhere are getting really annoying and time consuming.

@Antvasima What do you think about thread banning speed from this AP revision (not CRTs as a whole) specifically?
Click to expand...
That seems fine to me at least. He keeps spamming stonewalling posts, which is extremely time-consuming for others to deal with, and not mentally healthy for him personally.
 
Antvasima said:
That seems fine to me at least. He keeps spamming stonewalling posts, which is extremely time-consuming for others to deal with, and not mentally healthy for him personally.
Click to expand...
I respect your decision then but for the record I was just trying to say that since Zeldris sensed DK Britannia magic power along with everyone in Britannia that there was a possibility that he was referring to that form of the DK when talking about true magic Meliodas. Again I do apologize for everything
 
ByAsura said:
Honestly, I was against thread banning you from here, but the constant stonewalling and repetitive arguments that go nowhere are getting really annoying and time consuming.

@Antvasima What do you think about thread banning speed from this AP revision (not CRTs as a whole) specifically?
Click to expand...
I saw multipliers rules can be ignored if it is consistant for the characters to get these multipliers through feats

It is Basically how these mid rules were ignored for Black Clover since there is no real contradictions

So could we re apply the multipliers just as before since nobody here denoted inconsistant multipliers ?

(Also don’t bring the « but their best calced feats are around Small country lvl they can’t be H 6-A cause it can be ignored too if the multipliers are consistant »
 
Also i don’t think y’all should Even argue about True magic Meliodas we could wait for it’s next appearance to see What it can do and accept the Far higher as a compromise
 
speedster352 said:
I respect your decision then but for the record I was just trying to say that since Zeldris sensed DK Britannia magic power along with everyone in Britannia that there was a possibility that he was referring to that form of the DK when talking about true magic Meliodas. Again I do apologize for everything
Click to expand...
Makai64100 said:
Also i don’t think y’all should Even argue about True magic Meliodas we could wait for it’s next appearance to see What it can do and accept the Far higher as a compromise
Click to expand...
this is my last argument
 
speedster352 said:
this is my last argument
Click to expand...
And let’s just forget said argument and keep this thread in a positive mood to avoid them answering you and you answering them for another century

We should decide if We want to keep the multipliers as before by voting and arguing about their consistance, (thanks Arnold he is the one that paved the way)
Or if BC should be a single exception.

This way We could accelerate this a bit and just Go through speed Even faster
 
Majinere566 said:
Other than the constant speedster arguments, what else is in contention here?
Click to expand...
Me about the removal of some multipliers/the fact that We don’t apply them cuz They aren’t directly stated even if they are consistant

This rule can be completely ignored for Both speed and AP
 
Majinere566 said:
We dropped AM Meliodas amps tho?

We decided to just scale AM Meliodas above Enchanter Tristan.

Man I swear I can't even follow how much Demon Marks there are. DM1 is the small one right?
Click to expand...
Yeah DM1 is the Small one
DM2 the larger one that goes a bit under the right eye
AM is the one that takes almost the entire forehead

We are allowed to use AM being 2x for every time Meli transform into it not only in 1 single instance
Maybe I misunderstood what we said here about the multipliers tho
 
Makai64100 said:
We are allowed to use AM being 2x for every time Meli transform into it not only in 1 single instance
Maybe I misunderstood what we said here about the multipliers tho
Click to expand...
IIRC AM Multiplier was dropped because it's unquantifiably stronger than DM2

DM1 & DM2 are still in use (2X Multiplier Each)

Then there's the various Enchantments
 
OneBleachHurricane said:
IIRC AM Multiplier was dropped because it's unquantifiably stronger than DM2

DM1 & DM2 are still in use (2X Multiplier Each)

Then there's the various Enchantments
Click to expand...
It is considered as > enchanter Tristan making it quantifiable (at least 2 x) and it’s not contradicted and we even had doubts about it being 2x Using the FC thing that was dropped later due to a lack of back up

We saw With Black Clover’s exemple that the multiplier rules can be ignored if There is no contradictions

So i think we should Go back to our first scaling chain multipliers that has 0 contradiction and is consistant
And then incorporate What We found later
Which will lead to higher results and should be accepted (6000x multipliers were accepted Using this method so ig a mere 2x consistant multiplier won’t be a problem)
 
ByAsura said:
I'm getting tired of having to redo the scaling chain constantly, especially speed. Rather than continuing this thread with AP/Speed and making a Part 2, I'm just splitting it into 3 separate threads. Sorry for how messy this all is.

This first one will cover AP and the multipliers.

Keep in mind, the thread didn't take 5 months to come out, it was the scaling sandboxes. Due to repeated bullshit, I'm just saving at least the AP sandbox for after the main points are concluded. It should be faster that way.

Oh, and please remember not to rehash the same arguments without new evidence. I just want to get that out of the way so this thread doesn't last as long as the months-long discussion about it.

Making the Demon Mark Consistent​

We honestly have no reason to believe that Demon Mark isn't a consistent multiplier, especially since 2nd Demon Mark was already accepted as being a 2x amp, and nothing suggests there's some wild gap in power between each appearance.

The only Demon Mark on our profiles that diverges massively from Meliodas' base is his Danafor key, but I can debunk this gap pretty quickly; base Unsealed Meliodas was able to survive Derieri's 54th Combo Star and Monspeet's Hell Phoenix, despite both attacks surpassing the attack power of his enlarged Demon Mark. Meliodas in this key can damage opponents stronger/more durable than him.

Explanation​

The Red Demon's 63 megaton feat was debunked in another thread. Also, Tarmiel's calculation has been upgraded to 10.3 Teratons.

BoS Characters​

We have this feat, where Albion slices a mountain in two. This places Albion and Ash Hendrickson (also Demon Meliodas, to a lesser extent, since he hurt a weakened Hendy far beyond Gideon or King's attack power) at over 67.7 megatons.

It's stated that Ash Hendrickson's power is simply Red Demon Hendrickson + a Grey Demon, which have been damaged by the likes of Gilthunder and Howzer. So Meliodas and co are just under 34 megatons. Supporting this, Helbram, whose magic was stated to be on par with a Holy Knight Captain at the time, has a 15.8 megaton feat.

Ban is accepted as being half as powerful as Meliodas here and in the previous thread, so anyone who physically scales to him is just under 17 megatons. Although far inferior to 17 megatons, it's also worth noting the Red Demon that Ban fought and killed has an almost 3.6 megaton feat.

Ten Commandments Arc - Onwards (Upscaling)​

This one is a bit more complicated.

Tarmiel created an ocean, which was accepted as 10.3 teratons (Country level).

Margaret was explicitly the perfect match for Ludoshel's magic power, yet even a weakened True Body Ludoshel did much more damage to a Crisis-amped Original Demon than Margoshel could perform on Chandler, Cusack and Zeldris. So we've agreed that all the Goddesses are >>>2x their vessels. 20.61 teratons (Country level).

Estarossa is accepted as being 1/2th the Archangel's vessels, which is substantiated by the fact that he was equal to them after absorbing a single Commandment. Estarossa = Post-Revival Meliodas. 5.15 teratons (Small Country level+).

The 2nd Demon Mark 4x multiplier was accepted here. 20.61 teratons (Country level).

2nd Mark Meliodas couldn't damage the Gloom Cocoon, and one-shot it by just transforming into Assault Mode (which actually occurred after Mel amped it even more with negative energy). Tristan, on the other hand, could already damage the cocoon (placing him above 2nd Mark) and merely sliced it in two with a 2-3 times Enchanter amp (see below for details). So, Assault Mode scales above Enchanter Tristan. 41.22 teratons (Country level).

Chandler, Cusack and Margoshel are all >>> Assault Mode Meliodas (who's superior to 2nd Mark), and Zeldris is comparable to an extent. 41.22 teratons (Country level).

Original Demon is Chandler + Cusack with an automatic crisis amp. 82.44 teratons (Country level+).

Weakened True Ludoshel stomped Original Demon, as I said previously. 82.44 teratons (Country level+).

Zeldris' 2nd Mark is 82.44 teratons (Country level+). This is substantiated by his performance against Mael, who's stronger than Ludoshel and Original Demon.

Post-Purgatory Meliodas stomped weakened DK Zeldris, who's logically stronger than Zeldris, wasn't far inferior to Demon King Meliodas (who god stomped Mael and almost killed Zeldris with one shot), and did about the same damage to him as Elizabeth (who's comparable to or stronger than the Archangels). 82.44 teratons (Country level+).

2nd Mark is 329.76 teratons (Large Country level).

50% DK alone Post-Purgatory Ban could fight PDK to the same extent as 2nd Mark Meliodas and King (who is, in fact, superior to base Post-Purgatory Meliodas because he's > Dahlia, who was as strong or stronger than 1st Mark Meliodas). 50% DK stomped Ban and Wild (who's stronger than Ban), and 100% DK is twice as strong, but weaker than PDK. 659.52 teratons (Large Country level+).
Demon King briefly stopped an attack from the Sins while his magic was nullified. So this is Diane w/Gideon (who hurt Chimera Indura) + Post-Purgatory Assault Mode Meliodas (who scales above 2nd Mark) + The Ultimate One Escanor (who above 100% DK) + Ban + King. 1.73124 petatons (Continent level).

Ten Commandments Arc - Onwards (Downscaling)​

Basically, I'm just taking this scaling and refitting it.

Estarossa = 5.15 teratons (Small Country level+).

Derieri = 2.6 teratons (Small Country level).

Base Unsealed Meliodas = 0.64 teratons (Large Island level+)

Galand could survive a serious beat down from Unsealed Mel and somewhat fight the Archangels, so he should be around this league rather than scaling to characters that he absolutely stomped. I think he and everyone in this section should have an at most, though.

Enchantment/Destroyer Amplification​

Lancelot explains this simply; when magic is added to a weapon (like so), its destructive power is amplified exponentially. Enchanter-type magic increases its destructive power 2 to 3-fold, while Destroyer-type is nearly 10x more powerful. This explicitly applies to the weapon itself when used in conjunction, not the magic imbued within, also meaning that this shouldn't be applicable to Full Counter amps.

Fortunately, there is a list of what magic actually qualifies as Destroyer/Enchanter. So I think we should have criteria for the amps.

Is it applicable?: As I said before, it's imbued within a weapon and increases the weapon's destructive power by imbuing it with magical traits. So, something like this or this isn't applicable. Additionally, this doesn't apply to a character's fists, as Percival could do that in the first few chapters.

Does it change the balance of power?: When Percival used an Enchanter amp, he could carve apart Cernuous' antlers with ease, despite only scratching them prior. As an example, Gilthunder (whose power is equal to Meliodas) commonly fights Meliodas with and without imbuing his weapon, yet it hardly changes their fight.

Outliers: Just because, for example, Demon King's Destroyer-amplified slashes did even less damage than his and (notice the hole in his stomach) Escanor's punches, does this mean a character shouldn't have Destroyer amps in general? No, that just means it's inconsistency, and DK should still have a 10x amp on his AP. However, characters like Gilthunder consistently don't display the amp during the prior to the Defensive Battle for Liones arc.

What invalidates the amp?: Meliodas' Full Counter only reflects indirect magic attacks, so it logically can't be applied to the amps. However, the attack reflecting off something like Perfect Cube is fine since that would rebound the entire destructive force of the attack.

Do they commonly use a weapon?: Elizabeth never uses a weapon, but does have the ability to amplify their attack power, while Mael/Estarossa can imbue his fists with Darkness/Light for Killing Saucer and did use a weapon at one point (just not in the series). Should they be given the amp?

I did have a list of all the instances of Enchanters/Destroyer magic amps in the series, but I lost it in editing. It doesn't matter anyway, because I have yet to see an instance that'd boost a characters scaling. We can just discuss that shit here.

Miscellaneous​

Combining Albion's Profiles​

At this point, there's no need for an Albion I and II profile since their the main point of everyone's AP. They should just be combined.

Downgrading Pre-Purgatory Ban's Durability​

Ban can't take hits from Unsealed Base Meliodas, even while amped by Snatch (simultaneously weakening Meliodas). He's a massive glass cannon who (despite weirdly being able to survive his own attack recoil) gets half his body obliterated by Dale, and stabbed fodder Holy Knights/children with pitchforks.

To my knowledge, his only real durability feat is surviving after Elaine pushed him off the Sacred Tree, but even that was mostly because the forest was stopping him from getting killed. So he can't even survive that.

His durability should just be Unknown.

But this absolutely doesn't apply to Post-Purgatory Ban, who actually does have AP comparable to his durability.

Scaling Magic Power​

Fun fact. Derieri has a magic power of 1,500, and Izraf has a magic power of 2,080. Does this mean Izraf > Derieri.

No, because they focus on different types of magic. So let's get another comparison.

Estarossa (whose magic is greater than his physicals) has a magic power of 3,000, and King's magic is 3,370.

Basically, we shouldn't just automatically assume someone is more powerful than another character simply by virtue of having superior magic power.

I will elaborate on the characters affected by this later.
Click to expand...
Also i don’t think this is the updated version of the chain so it’s hard to keep everything in mind
 
Majinere566 said:
AM is still unquantifiable.

We're not considering it a quantifiable amp, We're just using normal scaling to get it Assualt Meliodas above Enchanter Tristan
Click to expand...
What i’m saying is that this rule in particular can be ignored

If AM is shown being at least Equal to Tristan enchanter type in terms of amp then we should be able to generalise this multiplier to every Time He transform into AM (He wasn’t even fully transformed when He one shotted Cage of darkness)
We refused it cause There is no direct statement about it being 2x but it’s narratively implied to be a 2x amp and it has not been contradicted yet

The rule was ignored for BC hence the 60000c black Clover With the 6000x gap thing so this is why i think we should discuss about it being consistant and accept or refuse it depending in contradictions
 
The Assault Mode multiplier isn't exactly consistent anymore due to prime mel, who's 5x his 2nd Mark.
speedster352 said:
I respect your decision then but for the record I was just trying to say that since Zeldris sensed DK Britannia magic power along with everyone in Britannia that there was a possibility that he was referring to that form of the DK when talking about true magic Meliodas. Again I do apologize for everything
Click to expand...
Not to reignite an argument, but far higher already covers that possibility.
Makai64100 said:
I saw multipliers rules can be ignored if it is consistant for the characters to get these multipliers through feats

It is Basically how these mid rules were ignored for Black Clover since there is no real contradictions
Click to expand...
Where exactly did you see this? To my knowledge, every Black Clover one at least has a statement.
 
ByAsura said:
The Assault Mode multiplier isn't exactly consistent anymore due to prime mel, who's 5x his 2nd Mark.

Not to reignite an argument, but far higher already covers that possibility.

Where exactly did you see this? To my knowledge, every Black Clover one at least has a statement.
Click to expand...
Look at their upgrade thread for speed they connected the dots for most of their scaling without direct evidence

their feats Just had no contradictions (or minor ones) so they basically ignored the rules (that are really bad imo for some of them)

Why is He 5x > his dm2?
 
From what I remember about the speed thread, it had nothing to do with making multipliers, just adding established power multipliers to speed.

DM2 > 80 teratons (via OG Demon scaling)

AM > 400 teratons (via Ominous Nebula scaling)
 
ByAsura said:
From what I remember about the speed thread, it had nothing to do with making multipliers, just adding established power multipliers to speed.

DM2 > 80 teratons (via OG Demon scaling)

AM > 400 teratons (via Ominous Nebula scaling)
Click to expand...
The « established multipliers » were not accepted iirc they discussed them in the thread and decided to say it’s consistant even without statements

I thought We could do the same

Him getting upgraded through scaling doesn’t mean we shouldn’t apply a Lowball 2x AM multiplier Using the « no contradictions + feat to back up » excuse when we don’t have him scaling to another value
 
What have you decided that we should do here, ByAsura?
 
Steve_Rogers1 said:
You don't even know what you're talking about.
Click to expand...
I mean y’all Pretty much were hyped and sent memes about the mid rules being skipped

We can apply the same reasoning here for way smaller multipliers that have actual statements to refer to

Don’t take it personally i didn’t emit a critic i was even enjoying the fact that these rules can be ignored if There is consistency being the arguments

The percentage thing was already divinding everyone and going by the rules a verse with the best speed feat being 2.49c at the time wouldn’t be allowed to get to 12000c without other feats

same goes for AP with the H6-A profiles with small country lvl feats at best

Now you’ve got an old calc and used it to have a 15c calc Which is great and ignoring the multiplier rules gives you the opportunity to get results that are 3821.65 x higher than your current best calc (that wasn’t even accepted at first and was lately repeating the same logic but applying a back up to make it look consistant)

Just to make the wound bleed more With an initial calc at 2.49c your current result made a x 24096.4

So i think a 2x or 3x multiplier scaling from a stated multiplier that has 0 contradiction except a « scaling that is x5 not x2 or 3 » should be accepted especially when the 2 to 3x multiplier is for a non fully transformed AM Meliodas and it had a way more powerful effect passively than said 2 to 3 x amp

AM being 2 to 3x every transformation is very consistant

The 5x scaling is too since there is a big margin that we cut off to lowball it to 2 or 3x by not taking into account:
-the rage amp boost
-the fact that he wasn’t fully transformed
-the fact that he passively one shotted the COD while a 2-3x amp could barely cut it while using the weakness of COD aka A LIGHT ENCHANTMENT
 
Last edited:
There's some other stuff for Helbram that I have to sort out.

Also, I'd like more input on this.
ByAsura said:
I just remembered something that we discussed in a past thread.

Percival's power had been boosted more than ever due to the power of Hope. It then climbs to a much greater height during the Meland fight, and Percival and Tristan can knock each other out by accident.

After that, Percival's abilities grew even more, but he was only able to breech/crack Meland's armour with a Destroyer amp. At which point Meland proceeds to stomp Percy.

So, Percy > 20 teratons, and 200 teratons with Destroyer, but he can only deal moderate damage.

Berserk Demon Tristan tore Meland to pieces.

BDT > 200 teratons.

Then there's the Arthur and FC scaling.

Basically, Arthur launched an attack at Demon Tristan to take him down, and Meliodas FC'd it without dealing even the slightest damage to Arthur.

Base Meliodas alone was way stronger than Demon Tristan and portrayed as capable of dealing damage to Arthur and somewhat fighting him.

4KoA Base Mel > 400 teratons.

He then goes into 2nd Mark, and they have a mostly even bout.

2nd Mark > 1.6 petatons.

With Destroyer, that'd rise to 16 petatons.
Click to expand...
 
ByAsura said:
I just remembered something that we discussed in a past thread.

Percival's power had been boosted more than ever due to the power of Hope. It then climbs to a much greater height during the Meland fight, and Percival and Tristan can knock each other out by accident.

After that, Percival's abilities grew even more, but he was only able to breech/crack Meland's armour with a Destroyer amp. At which point Meland proceeds to stomp Percy.

So, Percy > 20 teratons, and 200 teratons with Destroyer, but he can only deal moderate damage.

Berserk Demon Tristan tore Meland to pieces.

BDT > 200 teratons.

Then there's the Arthur and FC scaling.

Basically, Arthur launched an attack at Demon Tristan to take him down, and Meliodas FC'd it without dealing even the slightest damage to Arthur.

Base Meliodas alone was way stronger than Demon Tristan and portrayed as capable of dealing damage to Arthur and somewhat fighting him.

4KoA Base Mel > 400 teratons.

He then goes into 2nd Mark, and they have a mostly even bout.

2nd Mark > 1.6 petatons.
Click to expand...
Wouldn't this make base Lancelot 6-A?
 
Tbh, you say that a lot about Black Clover, but that's never really the case when I look at the threads you're talking about.

Can you link the thread?
 
This is just accepting stated magic boosts as speed boosts, like I thought.

If there's more to it, please link the specific comment because I don't want to read 2 pages of a thread at 10:30 PM.
 
ByAsura said:
This is just accepting stated magic boosts as speed boosts, like I thought.

If there's more to it, please link the specific comment because I don't want to read 2 pages of a thread at 10:30 PM.
Click to expand...
Said magic boosts are used by connecting dots and They are never stated and are Just stacks of percents that are assumed to be linear

I think a smaller multiplier that is comparable With another and lowballed should be used constantly

Isshiki as an example isn’t FTL+ despite having a pretty clear 10x multiplier at full power based on percentages
 
The dots are connected via stated multipliers, like characters being at 50%, 20%, etc.

This is more like stacking up the multipliers in the current OP or Dragon Ball.
 
ByAsura said:
The dots are connected via stated multipliers, like characters being at 50%, 20%, etc.

This is more like stacking up the multipliers in the current OP or Dragon Ball.
Click to expand...
Said % aren’t stated to be linear and it’s still debated
It inflates the results by several thousand times over their best calculated feats

Why couldn’t we connect the dots with an obvious feat to assume AM always multiplies by at least 2x as it was before
 
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