Demon_Lord18
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This CRT is for that.
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Ninjago Star Tiering and Possible New Value
- Thread starter Lloydblitzed
- Start date
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Yeah, it feels like this was a really unique situation. The star formed because the Mega Weapon, made up of four GWs, was destroyed. It’s kind of like a nuclear bomb scenario—by itself, it’s big and heavy, and could probably crush a car, but when it explodes, it scales way higher than its physicals.
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All the context is in the blog linked in the OP. TL;DR: In Season 2 Episode 6: Wrong Place, Wrong Time, Golden Weapons created a star.
Scaling also explained in there, but I will just copy and paste it here:
Megaweapon Erasure Existence
Megaweapon erases from existence anyone who can't wield their power, comparable to how Golden Weapons do the same.Lord Garmadon
Lord Garmadon can survive them due to being not erased from existence while touching and using Megaweapon, as well as four Golden Weapons, thus proving he can wield its power.Ninjas
- Four main Ninjas (Kai, Jay, Zane, and Cole) tank the explosion created by four Golden Weapons together, even laughing it off later.
- Lloyd was also implied to have the power of the Golden Weapons, which explained how he could use element of Earth without using them, twice.
- Cole briefly touches the Megaweapon and not starting to be erased from existence. Meanwhile it might seem too short in order to deduce via that Cole scaling to Megaweapon, Megaweapon does not start to "shine" when Cole touches it, and Cole doesn't begin to be erased from existence, unlike the pirate who tried to do the same and started to "disappear" almost instantly. Also, logically, Cole would not do that if it was fatal to his life.
- Kai can harm and tank blows from Lord Garmadon.
- Kai, Lloyd, Jay, and Cole tank the explosion made by the elements of former three.
- Ninjas are consistently relative to each other.
- It was heavily implied that by the end of Legacy of the Green Ninja, Lloyd is far superior to his father. Later, in Sons of Garmadon, Lloyd can fight off Reborn Garmadon who is far superior to his past counterpart.
- Wu and Garmadon tank the explosion created by the 4 Golden Weapons together.
Others
Others scale via hurting Ninjas (or someone who already tanked Ninjas attacks), tanking their (or someone who already damaged Ninjas) attacks. Here are some examples:They could have collapsed due to their insane speeds. Also, they created it due to simply merging. If it was a nuclear bomb scenario, they would not really create any star, they would just explode tbh.
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There's a statement saying that Garmadon got stronger and had to the power to control all the 4 Weapons, but the Ninjas also got stronger, which likely explains why they could have some kind of relativity against Garmadon
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We literally see Garmadon create the Megaweapon by merging the golden weapons and no star is formed. The star creation is definitely a special case due to the interaction between the GWs and the Megaweapon.
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@Planck69 @Theglassman12
Ok, before I start debating this I just want to double-check what Planck and Glass had agreed with me about, and if they feel the same way about the upscaling.
Ok, before I start debating this I just want to double-check what Planck and Glass had agreed with me about, and if they feel the same way about the upscaling.
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- Thread starter
- #207
That's not the same feat at all, nor remotly the same action (Garmadon tries to create a new weapon vs Ninjas try to destroy a weapon of the same amount of power)
Alright
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Also I want to mention again that 4-C scales way above any other feat the main cast would scale to since this could be important for the discussion.
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Because he create the Megaweapon in a special place: Golden Peaks. Why do you think Garmadon & FSM did not just merge them right away, lol? Because what we saw in S2E9 would have happened.
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Not any. There are two feats in favor of direct 4-C scaling, and other feats that involve the non-scalable 4-C feats.
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I responded to the claim that the weapons simply merging lead to the creation of the star.
Also we see the golden weapons having a special interaction with the megaweapon before going to space which would change the circumstances of the feat.
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FSM never merged the golden weapons and Garmadon had no way of merging them by himself.
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Addressed in the blog. We went all over this with @Minaaaa for pages. I'll just copy and paste in case you're too lazy clicking the hyperlink (which seems to be the case):
Facts
Let's begin with the facts we know:Time Paradox was solved due to the destruction of Megaweapon.
This was suggested by Zane and Kai dialogue:Zane: I was thinking about that. It could be possible to erase the events that have transpired so far by destroying the Mega Weapon that brought us here in the first place.
Kai: You mean if we destroy that weapon, everything goes back to normal?
Zane: Uh, theoretically.
Nothing contradicts this, so it must be reliable, as it is the only solution to the problem that was suggested in the series. Thus, we established that destruction of the Megaweapon was the very reason why time paradox was successfully solved.
Golden Weapons destroyed the Megaweapon.
It was suggested by Cole and Jay's dialogue, as well as Garmadon's reaction to it (which goes right after Zane and Kai's):Cole: But nothing can destroy the Mega Weapon. Only a weapon of equal power has any chance of stopping it.
Jay: Haha, like maybe the weapons forged to create it in the first place?
Garmadon: No!
Cole: The Golden Weapons!
Jay: Yeah, I thought these might come in handy.
Even supported by what actually happens after that even further. Finally, we also have Sensei Garmadon's statement: "You used the Golden Weapons to destroy my Mega Weapon." Thus, we established the fact that Golden Weapons destroyed the Megaweapon, and that the entire time paradox was successfully solved due to it.
Golden Weapons landed on the comyet.
Confirmed in Rebooted.Megaweapon became a star which still exists in the present.
It is confirmed in the show where we see star formation, and star being still there after Ninjas safely get back to present, with it being further supported by Tommy Andreasen and other official outside sources.Golden Weapons "blob" was still functional.
This is evidenced by the fact that the blob still erased those who can't wield its power. It is also heavily implied by Overlord's desire to get the Golden Weapons back to complete his transformation into the Golden Master. If Golden Weapons lost their power, why use them?Explanation
"Two" Megaweapons
For the sake of the explanation, let's separate "two" Megaweapons:1) Megaweapon #1 — the original Megaweapon which was created by Lord Garmadon using the four Golden Weapons, and which he used to resurrect Soto's crew, Grundles, stop Ninjas from winning the race, create Ninjas' evil clones by using clothes of original ones, opening a portal to travel into the past, and accidentally transform Ninjas into the kids.
2) Megaweapon #2 — Megaweapon which was the result of four Golden Weapons and Megaweapon #1 collision. Existed only for a short amount of time.
Interpretations
Now, let's go to the intepretations of the scene we can make, and which one will be the most correct and will not contradict the five facts above.Interpretation #1
Golden Weapons destroyed Megaweapon when Ninjas were shooting their respective elements at the Megaweapon #1. Then, powerless Megaweapon #1 and Golden Weapons collided into the Megaweapon #2 and flew into the space. After the explosion, they splited once again, and Megaweapon #1 became a star, while Golden Weapons landed on the Delta V and became a blob. The coexistence of Megaweapon #1 and Golden Weapons is explained by the fact that not everything was erased from the past.It satisfies all the facts I listed earlier.
Interpretataion #2
Golden Weapons destroyed Megaweapon #1 during the collision, but since they also collided with each other, they effectively created a new Mega Weapon, Megaweapon #2. Megaweapon #2 flew to the space and became a star.This one fails to meet the fact that the Golden Weapons landed into the Delta V. If the Megaweapon #1 is physically destroyed, how could it become a star? How could Megaweapon #2 become a star if Golden Weapons are supposed to land later on Delta V?
Interpretation #3
Golden Weapons and Megaweapon #1 collided and thus created Megaweapon #2, being far stronger than 4 Golden Weapons or Megaweapon #1. When they flew into the space, they splited and Megaweapon #1 became a star and Golden Weapons becomes a blob.You might ask "But how this fails to meet all the facts? It is basically the same as Interpretation #1!" Well, although it might not be noticed at the first glance, this intepretation forgets one thing: fact #5, the fact that Golden Weapons blob was still functional, thus meaning that Megaweapon #1 should be still functional, because they both faced the same conditions while flying as Megaweapon #2. This means Megaweapon #1 would still be functional, failing to solve the time paradox.
Further back-up of Interpretation #1
Interpretation #3 failure clearly shows why Megaweapon #1 should have lost its power before the collision. To further support Interpretation #1, I'll use Sensei Garmadon's statement:| “ | I remember because I was there. You used the Golden Weapons to destroy my Mega Weapon. But when they collided, they were shot into... (space) | „ |
| ~ Sensei Garmadon explaining what happened |
"But when" clearly indicates that collision was after the destruction of the Megaweapon, thus indicating a chronological order of Garmadon's statement.
To support this even further, when Sensei Garmadon was saying "You used the Golden Weapons to destroy my Mega Weapon", the flashback visually showed Ninjas shooting their respective Golden Weapons' elements at Megaweapon. He also separated Megaweapon being destroyed from Golden Weapons and Megaweapon colliding.
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I meant that he created GWs there, not just anywhere
He could have just combined them, like he did in Golden Peaks, lol
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The blog only argues that the only the 4 golden weapons created the star and it never argues that the Megaweapon didn't have any prior influence on them before the star creation feat (which again we see on screen)
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It does. There is a whole ******* proof that the original MW was destroyed, that was the purpose of the blog. I recited it in the spoiler for you. A genuine question: Can. You. Read???
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There's no reason to believe that or any indication that he could do that in the show. We see the Megaweapon get created by the influence of the golden peaks, Garmadon had no role in merging them.
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Thanks for concession. Golden Peaks were the reason why they did not create a star. Also, by the way, Golden Weapons technically did form Megaweapon when merged during the Star feat, but they just flew away creating a star.
Do Ninjago haters have to come up with every single possible excuse just for the sake of downplaying?
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The blog doesn't that we see the interaction between the golden weapons and Megaweapon in the series
Also the blog assumes for some arbitrary reason that these 3 interpretations are the only ones possible.
I never said that and there's no indication of that of the show. I just said that Garmadon couldn't make them in any place because he doesn't have the ability to.
LOL. Ninjago is one of my favorite verses and I'm planning on making many profile improvements and abilities additions to the verse, but apparently disagreeing with the characters scaling to a certain tier makes me a hater. You're just being aggressive for no reason.
Anyways I will wait for more staff input since this seems to be going nowhere.
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It does. MW was destroyed and then GWs merged and flew away. It literally debunks that Megaweapon had any contribution to Golden Weapons' feat at all.
Because those are only relevant ones that have some ground? Sure, you can also argue that Source Dragons heard prayers of Ninjas and made a star and exploded GWs, you can always come up with infinite interpretations, but they will be simple groundless headcanons.
You just conceded that Golden Peaks influenced the GWs creation which refutes your point.
Haven't noticed that at all.
******* around with the verse I support is a pretty good reason for opposing you! And I am not being aggressive.
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- Thread starter
- #221
I just want to add some supportive argument in the OP before staff comes back
Sum magicians can do this:
And Wu and Garmadon would upscale over their feat of harming Chroma, who is as powerful as Mindaro, who created entire dimensions with their own Sun. (That feat happens before Pilots and the Serpentine War Arc too, in a book called Spinjitzu Brothers, who is confirmed to be canon). Oh and mind you, Mindaro made many of those dimensions, and as a pass time cuz he thought the world was getting "less colorful"
That makes around 6 Stellar Feats done by mid tiers in the verse, making the tier ranking pretty consistant considering most of these feats are done casually and also that goes against the "its a huge jump of power" argument
Sum magicians can do this:
And Wu and Garmadon would upscale over their feat of harming Chroma, who is as powerful as Mindaro, who created entire dimensions with their own Sun. (That feat happens before Pilots and the Serpentine War Arc too, in a book called Spinjitzu Brothers, who is confirmed to be canon). Oh and mind you, Mindaro made many of those dimensions, and as a pass time cuz he thought the world was getting "less colorful"
That makes around 6 Stellar Feats done by mid tiers in the verse, making the tier ranking pretty consistant considering most of these feats are done casually and also that goes against the "its a huge jump of power" argument
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The golden weapon scaling specifically.
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- Thread starter
- #223
So u agree with the dimension scaling UES thing for Wu, right?
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It seems fine to me.
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- #225
Last thing, do u agree with Wu scaling to this?
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- #227
Well Chroma scales Mindaro who's magic can be physically channeled, and Wu scale from his own UES, so ig it works
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Pure headcanon. It's never mentioned or implied that the golden weapons need to be merged in the golden peaks or else a star would be created or that they would self destruct. It's also never mentioned or implied that Garmadon could merge the golden weapons by himself. That is the reason he went to the golden peaks to merge them because it's the only way he can do so.
1. We see the Golden Weapons revolving around the Megaweapon and then merging, even if the Megaweapon became powerless before colliding with the golden weapons it clearly had an influence on them that lead them to merge and go into space. You can't just deny what happened in the show.
2. The interpretations you're using aren't the only possible ones, for example:
The Megaweapon could have been made powerless when it merged or was merging with the golden weapons. (which would be more consistent with the show)
In fact, Garmadon's statement could further support that:
Notice how he says "But when they collided" instead of "But then they collided", this would imply that the collision between the Golden Weapons and Megaweapon was something expected during the destruction of the latter by the former and that their collision was the moment when the Megaweapon got destroyed. (which makes complete sense since the we see the golden weapon revolve around the Megaweapon before colliding implying it has an effect on them thus still having its powers not to mention that the destruction of the Megaweapon could also refer to it losing its original state that created the time paradox and the creation of a new Megaweapon in its place after colliding with the Golden Weapons would make it considered destroyed).
Also I fail to see why the usage of "But when" implies that the destruction of the Megaweapon happened before its collision with the Golden Weapons like mentioned in the blog. If anything it would mean that they happened simultaneously.
I'm not sure if those feats could be used to scale to AP. They seem to be Life Manipulation and Immersion
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Also why would Mindaro's body glowing with magical energy make magic a UES? It has no implication that his physicals scale to his magic.
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He is litterally channeling the magic inside his body, which is baseline UES. There's also clear implications he got physically weaker when his magic was weakening
But those places are real and that would fall under Creation as well
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- Thread starter
- #231
This cosmology had accepted Space-Times over painted Universes. Doesn't change much if its a painting or not anyways
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Nope his body glowing with magical energy wouldn't be enough evidence for his physicals to scale to his magic or that he is getting physically stronger because of it. Also even if he was getting physically stronger by channeling his magic it would just be one of the many criteria needed for a UES and it wouldn't be enough to prove it.
From the page about Universal energy systems:
So no, becoming weaker after his powers weakening is not proof that it's a UES, it simply is one of the many requirements for it to be a UES.
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- #233
The same page states this
The Monster itself is as powerful as his magic anyways, so it still scales to Chroma
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I will go over every feat used to scale the ninja to 4-C:
Gahraan controlling stars and planets in a dream dimension: Technically this could be used to scale Gaharaan in his Dream Dimension and Wu's dream self but there's no reason for Wu's base form to scale to his dream self.
Mindaro making his paintings come into life with the paintings Containing a star: This would simply be a creation feat and it wouldn't scale to physicals since Mindaro's magic isn't a UES. Also this scan could be proof that the sun isn't realistic thus the creation feat wouldn't scale to that.
The Golden Weapons creating a star: Extensive talk has been done about this feat and most staff agree that it shouldn't be used to scale the main cast and a lot of the arguments supporting the feat rely on personal interpretation.
Nadakhan creating a copy of Ninjago that is illuminated:
1. A star is never shown in the pocket dimension.
2. The arguments for djinn magic being a UES are that Arrakor is weaker physically without his powers and that he Became stronger after regaining them which according to the page about universal energy systems is not enough for it to be considered a UES which would just make it simply a creation feat.
3. I don't even think anyone would scale to Nadakhan AP wise
Wu creating a pocket dimension that has its own sun: This is the only concrete feat that can actually be used to scale the main cast to 4-C since it was created by an Elemental Essence which is a UES.
Since Wu's feat is the only concrete feat that can actually scale the AP of the main cast to 4-C and with it being way above any other feat that can be used to scale them I believe that it's an outlier and shouldn't be used to scale the main cast (base ninja and mid-tiers of the verse).
Gahraan controlling stars and planets in a dream dimension: Technically this could be used to scale Gaharaan in his Dream Dimension and Wu's dream self but there's no reason for Wu's base form to scale to his dream self.
Mindaro making his paintings come into life with the paintings Containing a star: This would simply be a creation feat and it wouldn't scale to physicals since Mindaro's magic isn't a UES. Also this scan could be proof that the sun isn't realistic thus the creation feat wouldn't scale to that.
The Golden Weapons creating a star: Extensive talk has been done about this feat and most staff agree that it shouldn't be used to scale the main cast and a lot of the arguments supporting the feat rely on personal interpretation.
Nadakhan creating a copy of Ninjago that is illuminated:
1. A star is never shown in the pocket dimension.
2. The arguments for djinn magic being a UES are that Arrakor is weaker physically without his powers and that he Became stronger after regaining them which according to the page about universal energy systems is not enough for it to be considered a UES which would just make it simply a creation feat.
3. I don't even think anyone would scale to Nadakhan AP wise
Wu creating a pocket dimension that has its own sun: This is the only concrete feat that can actually be used to scale the main cast to 4-C since it was created by an Elemental Essence which is a UES.
Since Wu's feat is the only concrete feat that can actually scale the AP of the main cast to 4-C and with it being way above any other feat that can be used to scale them I believe that it's an outlier and shouldn't be used to scale the main cast (base ninja and mid-tiers of the verse).
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Honestly, this looks quite fine to me. But I will wait for the counterarguments.
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Many UES page like this and this have loss/increase in physical stats over loss in the said UES as justification. The other scan is from a feat done by Periwrinkle, and it doesn't prove the Sun is not realistic, they are just describing the way the Sun was drawed (Heck, our own Sun emits rays). Chroma is stated just as powerful as Mindaro's magic. No
You realise that Garmadon not scaling to the GWs is completly against the narrative, as well as half you're argument relying on the assumption "it should've made a Star bc the weapons merged" when the MW was destroyed to fix the Time Paradox and thus didn't merge at all?
No due to what I addressed earlier
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Again as I said, this isn't enough proof for a UES. This is just one of the requirements for a UES.
Then prove that it's a Non-Physical energy system. You can't just scale AP to a creation feat because Chroma became as strong as Mindaro's magic
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- #238
Please tell me why Ki was accepted as a UES over the simple scan of: Ki can be used to physically amplify their stats?
And ur misinterpreting the rule
He doesn't have much "different type of attacks". When at normal power lvls, he can both make a creature as strong as he is and make a barrier to contain him
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Yes It's used as one of the many requirements for a UES not the sole requirement. The UES page itself states that it isn't enough.
This is very obviously an unrealistic sun.
Being able to use the GWs =/= surviving the golden weapons exploding and creating a star after becoming unstable, merging and being sent into space under the effects of the Megaweapon (Which itself is made of 4 other GWs). There's no reason why being able to use the weapons requires surviving their destruction after becoming unstable.
Nope, the weapons merging making them create a star automatically is Orange's argument. You can't deny the influence of the Megaweapon on the GWs which is shown in the show that makes it a special case that shouldn't be used to scale the GWs normally. The blog you're using to scale the feat agrees that the weapons collided with the Megaweapon further supported by Garmadon stating that they collided. I already went further into detail here. And most staff members agree that this feat in particular shouldn't be used to scale them.
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Because they also show during the series that their energy attacks scale to their physicals. It's not just ki amplifying their bodies.
This is why you don't use whataboutism arguments.
