Demon_Lord18
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This CRT is for that.Because I'm questioning the logic behind the 4-C
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This CRT is for that.Because I'm questioning the logic behind the 4-C
All the context is in the blog linked in the OP. TL;DR: In Season 2 Episode 6: Wrong Place, Wrong Time, Golden Weapons created a star.It's the same feat. Maybe I'm just not knowledgeable enough about the verse to comment on this.
What's the actual context behind the star feat again?
They could have collapsed due to their insane speeds. Also, they created it due to simply merging. If it was a nuclear bomb scenario, they would not really create any star, they would just explode tbh.Yeah, it feels like this was a really unique situation. The star formed because the Mega Weapon, made up of four GWs, was destroyed. It’s kind of like a nuclear bomb scenario—by itself, it’s big and heavy, and could probably crush a car, but when it explodes, it scales way higher than its physicals.
There's a statement saying that Garmadon got stronger and had to the power to control all the 4 Weapons, but the Ninjas also got stronger, which likely explains why they could have some kind of relativity against GarmadonYeah, it feels like this was a really unique situation. The star formed because the Mega Weapon, made up of four GWs, was destroyed. It’s kind of like a nuclear bomb scenario—by itself, it’s big and heavy, and could probably crush a car, but when it explodes, it scales way higher than its physicals.
We literally see Garmadon create the Megaweapon by merging the golden weapons and no star is formed. The star creation is definitely a special case due to the interaction between the GWs and the Megaweapon.Also, they created it due to simply merging.
That's not the same feat at all, nor remotly the same action (Garmadon tries to create a new weapon vs Ninjas try to destroy a weapon of the same amount of power)We literally see Garmadon create the Megaweapon by merging the golden weapons and no star is formed.
Alright@Planck69 @Theglassman12
Ok, before I start debating this I just want to double-check what Planck and Glass had agreed with me about, and if they feel the same way about the upscaling.
Because he create the Megaweapon in a special place: Golden Peaks. Why do you think Garmadon & FSM did not just merge them right away, lol? Because what we saw in S2E9 would have happened.We literally see Garmadon create the Megaweapon by merging the golden weapons and no star is formed.
Not any. There are two feats in favor of direct 4-C scaling, and other feats that involve the non-scalable 4-C feats.Also I want to mention again that 4-C scales way above any other feat the main cast would scale to since this could be important for the discussion.
I responded to the claim that the weapons simply merging lead to the creation of the star.That's not the same feat at all, nor remotly the same action
FSM never merged the golden weapons and Garmadon had no way of merging them by himself.Why do you think Garmadon & FSM did not just merge them right away, lol?
Addressed in the blog. We went all over this with @Minaaaa for pages. I'll just copy and paste in case you're too lazy clicking the hyperlink (which seems to be the case):I responded to the claim that the weapons simply merging lead to the creation of the star.
Also we see the golden weapons having a special interaction with the megaweapon before going to space which would change the circumstances of the feat.
“ | I remember because I was there. You used the Golden Weapons to destroy my Mega Weapon. But when they collided, they were shot into... (space) | „ |
~ Sensei Garmadon explaining what happened |
I meant that he created GWs there, not just anywhereFSM never merged the golden weapons
He could have just combined them, like he did in Golden Peaks, lolGarmadon had no way of merging them by himself.
The blog only argues that the only the 4 golden weapons created the star and it never argues that the Megaweapon didn't have any prior influence on them before the star creation feat (which again we see on screen)Addressed in the blog
It does. There is a whole ******* proof that the original MW was destroyed, that was the purpose of the blog. I recited it in the spoiler for you. A genuine question: Can. You. Read???The blog only argues that the only the 4 golden weapons created the star and it never argues that the Megaweapon didn't have any prior influence on them before the star creation feat (which again we see on screen)
There's no reason to believe that or any indication that he could do that in the show. We see the Megaweapon get created by the influence of the golden peaks, Garmadon had no role in merging them.He could have just combined them, like he did in Golden Peaks, lol
Thanks for concession. Golden Peaks were the reason why they did not create a star. Also, by the way, Golden Weapons technically did form Megaweapon when merged during the Star feat, but they just flew away creating a star.There's no reason to believe that or any indication that he could do that in the show. We see the Megaweapon get created by the influence of the golden peaks, Garmadon had no role in merging them.
The blog doesn't that we see the interaction between the golden weapons and Megaweapon in the seriesIt does. There is a whole ******* proof that the original MW was destroyed, that was the purpose of the blog. I recited it in the spoiler for you. A genuine question: Can. You. Read???
I never said that and there's no indication of that of the show. I just said that Garmadon couldn't make them in any place because he doesn't have the ability to.Golden Peaks were the reason why they did not create a star.
LOL. Ninjago is one of my favorite verses and I'm planning on making many profile improvements and abilities additions to the verse, but apparently disagreeing with the characters scaling to a certain tier makes me a hater. You're just being aggressive for no reason.Ninjago haters
It does. MW was destroyed and then GWs merged and flew away. It literally debunks that Megaweapon had any contribution to Golden Weapons' feat at all.
Because those are only relevant ones that have some ground? Sure, you can also argue that Source Dragons heard prayers of Ninjas and made a star and exploded GWs, you can always come up with infinite interpretations, but they will be simple groundless headcanons.Also the blog assumes for some arbitrary reason that these 3 interpretations are the only ones possible.
You just conceded that Golden Peaks influenced the GWs creation which refutes your point.I never said that and there's no indication of that of the show. I just said that Garmadon couldn't make them in any place because he doesn't have the ability to.
Haven't noticed that at all.Ninjago is one of my favorite verses
******* around with the verse I support is a pretty good reason for opposing you! And I am not being aggressive.You're just being aggressive for no reason.
- Mindaro, a talented magician, is capable of creating dimensions with their own Sun by making his paintings come to life
- His dimensions are only accessible throught magical portal or BFR, proving it isn't just an illusion
- Mindaro is also capable of physically channeling his own magic
- Mindaro also created a monster called the Chroma, who is as powerful as he is
- Peri can also paint dimensions with its own Sun, just like her father Mindaro, who are only accessible throught magical portals as well, proving they aren't illusions
- Mindaro also made a dimension with a starry sky with his magical painting skills
The golden weapon scaling specifically.@Planck69 @Theglassman12
Ok, before I start debating this I just want to double-check what Planck and Glass had agreed with me about, and if they feel the same way about the upscaling.
So u agree with the dimension scaling UES thing for Wu, right?The golden weapon scaling specifically.
It seems fine to me.So u agree with the dimension scaling UES thing for Wu, right?
I just want to add some supportive argument in the OP before staff comes back
Sum magicians can do this:
And Wu and Garmadon would upscale over their feat of harming Chroma, who is as powerful as Mindaro, who created entire dimensions with their own Sun. (That feat happens before Pilots and the Serpentine War Arc too, in a book called Spinjitzu Brothers, who is confirmed to be canon). Oh and mind you, Mindaro made many of those dimensions, and as a pass time cuz he thought the world was getting "less colorful"
That makes around 6 Stellar Feats done by mid tiers in the verse, making the tier ranking pretty consistant considering most of these feats are done casually and also that goes against the "its a huge jump of power" argument
Last thing, do u agree with Wu scaling to this?It seems fine to me.
Well Chroma scales Mindaro who's magic can be physically channeled, and Wu scale from his own UES, so ig it worksIf they harm him and the power to do this comes from a universal energy system, then he would scale.
Pure headcanon. It's never mentioned or implied that the golden weapons need to be merged in the golden peaks or else a star would be created or that they would self destruct. It's also never mentioned or implied that Garmadon could merge the golden weapons by himself. That is the reason he went to the golden peaks to merge them because it's the only way he can do so.You just conceded that Golden Peaks influenced the GWs creation which refutes your point.
1. We see the Golden Weapons revolving around the Megaweapon and then merging, even if the Megaweapon became powerless before colliding with the golden weapons it clearly had an influence on them that lead them to merge and go into space. You can't just deny what happened in the show.It does. MW was destroyed and then GWs merged and flew away. It literally debunks that Megaweapon had any contribution to Golden Weapons' feat at all.
Notice how he says "But when they collided" instead of "But then they collided", this would imply that the collision between the Golden Weapons and Megaweapon was something expected during the destruction of the latter by the former and that their collision was the moment when the Megaweapon got destroyed. (which makes complete sense since the we see the golden weapon revolve around the Megaweapon before colliding implying it has an effect on them thus still having its powers not to mention that the destruction of the Megaweapon could also refer to it losing its original state that created the time paradox and the creation of a new Megaweapon in its place after colliding with the Golden Weapons would make it considered destroyed).I remember because I was there. You used the Golden Weapons to destroy my Mega Weapon. But when they collided, they were shot into
I'm not sure if those feats could be used to scale to AP. They seem to be Life Manipulation and ImmersionI just want to add some supportive argument in the OP before staff comes back
Sum magicians can do this:
And Wu and Garmadon would upscale over their feat of harming Chroma, who is as powerful as Mindaro, who created entire dimensions with their own Sun. (That feat happens before Pilots and the Serpentine War Arc too, in a book called Spinjitzu Brothers, who is confirmed to be canon). Oh and mind you, Mindaro made many of those dimensions, and as a pass time cuz he thought the world was getting "less colorful"
Also why would Mindaro's body glowing with magical energy make magic a UES? It has no implication that his physicals scale to his magic.Well Chroma scales Mindaro who's magic can be physically channeled, and Wu scale from his own UES, so ig it works
He is litterally channeling the magic inside his body, which is baseline UES. There's also clear implications he got physically weaker when his magic was weakeningAlso why would Mindaro's body glowing with magical energy make magic a UES? It has no implication that his physicals scale to his magic.
In order to qualify for a Universal Energy System and do scaling according to it, a character or the system they are using needs to fulfill all criteria for a Non-physical Energy System. Additionally, they have to demonstrate that they can channel their power through their own bodies in a way that quantifiably enhances them or otherwise allows scaling of their supernatural powers through their physicals.
But those places are real and that would fall under Creation as wellI'm not sure if those feats could be used to scale to AP. They seem to be Life Manipulation and Immersion
This cosmology had accepted Space-Times over painted Universes. Doesn't change much if its a painting or not anywaysI'm not sure if those feats could be used to scale to AP. They seem to be Life Manipulation and Immersion
Nope his body glowing with magical energy wouldn't be enough evidence for his physicals to scale to his magic or that he is getting physically stronger because of it. Also even if he was getting physically stronger by channeling his magic it would just be one of the many criteria needed for a UES and it wouldn't be enough to prove it.He is litterally channeling the magic inside his body, which is baseline UES
From the page about Universal energy systems:There's also clear implications he got physically weaker when his magic was weakening
So no, becoming weaker after his powers weakening is not proof that it's a UES, it simply is one of the many requirements for it to be a UES.Note that removal of energy sources can also have detrimental effects if they are not universal and as such negative effects of removal do not necessarily imply universalness.
The same page states thisNope his body glowing with magical energy wouldn't be enough evidence for his physicals to scale to his magic or that he is getting physically stronger because of it. Also even if he was getting physically stronger by channeling his magic it would just be one of the many criteria needed for a UES and it wouldn't be enough to prove it.
From the page about Universal energy systems:
So no, becoming weaker after his powers weakening is not proof that it's a UES, it simply is one of the many requirements for it to be a UES.
Hence there should be evidence that an increase in power / energy should correspond to a proportional increase in the potency of their physical statistics. In the rare case that it is relevant for scaling the reverse should also be demonstrated: That a feat of non-empowered physical strength applies to the amount of supernatural power.
Honestly, this looks quite fine to me. But I will wait for the counterarguments.I will go over every feat used to scale the ninja to 4-C:
Gahraan controlling stars and planets in a dream dimension: Technically this could be used to scale Gaharaan in his Dream Dimension and Wu's dream self but there's no reason for Wu's base form to scale to his dream self.
Mindaro making his paintings come into life with the paintings Containing a star: This would simply be a creation feat and it wouldn't scale to physicals since Mindaro's magic isn't a UES. Also this scan could be proof that the sun isn't realistic thus the creation feat wouldn't scale to that.
The Golden Weapons creating a star: Extensive talk has been done about this feat and most staff agree that it shouldn't be used to scale the main cast and a lot of the arguments supporting the feat rely on personal interpretation.
Nadakhan creating a copy of Ninjago that is illuminated:
1. A star is never shown in the pocket dimension.
2. The arguments for djinn magic being a UES are that Arrakor is weaker physically without his powers and that he Became stronger after regaining them which according to the page about universal energy systems is not enough for it to be considered a UES which would just make it simply a creation feat.
3. I don't even think anyone would scale to Nadakhan AP wise
Wu creating a pocket dimension that has its own sun: This is the only concrete feat that can actually be used to scale the main cast to 4-C since it was created by an Elemental Essence which is a UES.
Since Wu's feat is the only concrete feat that can actually scale the AP of the main cast to 4-C and with it being way above any other feat that can be used to scale them I believe that it's an outlier and shouldn't be used to scale the main cast (base ninja and mid-tiers of the verse).
Honestly, this looks quite fine to me. But I will wait for the counterarguments.
Many UES page like this and this have loss/increase in physical stats over loss in the said UES as justification. The other scan is from a feat done by Periwrinkle, and it doesn't prove the Sun is not realistic, they are just describing the way the Sun was drawed (Heck, our own Sun emits rays). Chroma is stated just as powerful as Mindaro's magic. NoMindaro making his paintings come into life with the paintings Containing a star: This would simply be a creation feat and it wouldn't scale to physicals since Mindaro's magic isn't a UES. Also this scan could be proof that the sun isn't realistic thus the creation feat wouldn't scale to that.
You realise that Garmadon not scaling to the GWs is completly against the narrative, as well as half you're argument relying on the assumption "it should've made a Star bc the weapons merged" when the MW was destroyed to fix the Time Paradox and thus didn't merge at all?The Golden Weapons creating a star: Extensive talk has been done about this feat and most staff agree that it shouldn't be used to scale the main cast and a lot of the arguments supporting the feat rely on personal interpretation.
No due to what I addressed earlierWu creating a pocket dimension that has its own sun: This is the only concrete feat that can actually be used to scale the main cast to 4-C since it was created by an Elemental Essence which is a UES.
Since Wu's feat is the only concrete feat that can actually scale the AP of the main cast to 4-C and with it being way above any other feat that can be used to scale them I believe that it's an outlier and shouldn't be used to scale the main cast (base ninja and mid-tiers of the verse).
Again as I said, this isn't enough proof for a UES. This is just one of the requirements for a UES.The same page states this
Then prove that it's a Non-Physical energy system. You can't just scale AP to a creation feat because Chroma became as strong as Mindaro's magicThe Monster itself is as powerful as his magic anyways, so it still scales to Chroma
Please tell me why Ki was accepted as a UES over the simple scan of: Ki can be used to physically amplify their stats?Again as I said, this isn't enough proof for a UES. This is just one of the requirements for a UES.
He doesn't have much "different type of attacks". When at normal power lvls, he can both make a creature as strong as he is and make a barrier to contain himThen prove that it's a Non-Physical energy system. You can't just scale AP to a creation feat because Chroma became as strong as Mindaro's magic
Yes It's used as one of the many requirements for a UES not the sole requirement. The UES page itself states that it isn't enough.
This is very obviously an unrealistic sun.and it doesn't prove the Sun is not realistic, they are just describing the way the Sun was drawed
Being able to use the GWs =/= surviving the golden weapons exploding and creating a star after becoming unstable, merging and being sent into space under the effects of the Megaweapon (Which itself is made of 4 other GWs). There's no reason why being able to use the weapons requires surviving their destruction after becoming unstable.You realise that Garmadon not scaling to the GWs is completly against the narrative
Nope, the weapons merging making them create a star automatically is Orange's argument. You can't deny the influence of the Megaweapon on the GWs which is shown in the show that makes it a special case that shouldn't be used to scale the GWs normally. The blog you're using to scale the feat agrees that the weapons collided with the Megaweapon further supported by Garmadon stating that they collided. I already went further into detail here. And most staff members agree that this feat in particular shouldn't be used to scale them.as well as half you're argument relying on the assumption "it should've made a Star bc the weapons merged" when the MW was destroyed to fix the Time Paradox and thus didn't merge at all?
Because they also show during the series that their energy attacks scale to their physicals. It's not just ki amplifying their bodies.Please tell me why Ki was accepted as a UES over the simple scan of: Ki can be used to physically amplify their stats?