Ninjago Star Tiering and Possible New Value

[Scarletjet]

There is no real indication the Golden Weapons were at their peak when doing this feat, they just did this as a result of them colliding with each other. In fact, they should have already spent most of their energy at that point on destroying the Megaweapon, so it can in no way be their peak energy usage.

Except the weapons still kept their power instead of being drainned up and still limits the golden weapons to 4-C amount of energy before being weakening to the point of breaking

Also, the part of our argument is not only explosions, but also the fact that Garmadon and Cole can hold, which requires to have equal or greater power than those Golden Weapons, so it would scale regardless of whether GWs did it normally or at peak of their energy usage.

4-C amount of energy is the atmost limit of the weapon because it breaks after it was done, the power still being there matters nothing since the weapon itself broke, it means that when the weapon uses 4-C amounts of energy it breaks for being unable to handle such high output, since it doesn't break anytime someone swings it then it's not a potency it can be used casually

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Except the weapons still kept their power instead of being drainned up and still limits the golden weapons to 4-C amount of energy before being weakening to the point of breaking

They never weakened tho, else why the hell would Overlord seek them + they are only stated to be drained after Zane absorbed sum of its power

4-C amount of energy is the atmost limit of the weapon because it breaks after it was done, the power still being there matters nothing since the weapon itself broke, it means that when the weapon uses 4-C amounts of energy it breaks for being unable to handle such high output, since it doesn't break anytime someone swings it then it's not a potency it can be used casually

It just got deformed into a blob by the quick collision in space. Also, what does it change to the fact Garmadon can control their whole power combined? Also, if it took equal amount of power from the Original GWs to destroy the Mega Weapon, that means the Mega Weapon on its own is casually 4-C as well...

We already went over this and ur just going circular. Let the staff comment

 

[Scarletjet]

They never weakened tho, else why the hell would Overlord seek them + they are only stated to be drained after Zane absorbed sum of its power

That's what I said.

It just got deformed into a blob by the quick collision in space. Also, what does it change to the fact Garmadon can control their whole power combined? Also, if it took equal amount of power from the Original GWs to destroy the Mega Weapon, that means the Mega Weapon on its own is casually 4-C as well...

We already went over this. Ur just going circular

Getting deformed means 4-C amount of AP turns them into blob since they aren't turned into Blob anytime someone swings the weapon then it's bellow 4-C simple as that.
How would that mean the Mega weapons have 4-C casual power? They got destroyed because of 4-C AP.
Also it says and I quote "has the power to control all four golden weapons" nowhere does it state he can control the full power of the weapons which would be the 4-C

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Except the weapons still kept their power instead of being drainned up and still limits the golden weapons to 4-C amount of energy before being weakening to the point of breaking

They spent a ton of their energy to make Megaweapon effectively disabled. Yeah, they still had lots of it even after that, but the point remains.

4-C amount of energy is the atmost limit of the weapon because it breaks after it was done, the power still being there matters nothing since the weapon itself broke, it means that when the weapon uses 4-C amounts of energy it breaks for being unable to handle such high output, since it doesn't break anytime someone swings it then it's not a potency it can be used casually

It never said it broke due to creating star, that’s your headcanon. Flying at insane speeds is really easy for you, right?. And they were not at their FP regardless.
Cole and Garmadon scale to this fully even if you consider this GWs at their peak.

Also, may I remind you, the Golden Weapons in the form of blob did not lose their power even after the incident and were erasing anyone who touched them and were too weak… yeah.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Getting deformed means 4-C amount of AP turns them into blob since they aren't turned into Blob anytime someone swings the weapon then it's bellow 4-C simple as that.

Tbh the weapons did went in space at MFTL+ Speed which is why I brought the speed argument

How would that mean the Mega weapons have 4-C casual power? They got destroyed because of 4-C AP.

*They got destroyed by a power equal to them (The Mega Weapon is simply a combination of the 4 GWs togheter. I just want to make that clear)

Also it says and I quote "has the power to control all four golden weapons" nowhere does it state he can control the full power of the weapons which would be the 4-C

Garmadon went to the Realm of Madness just to gain enough strength to be able to counter that issue (Which was handling ALL of their power)

Wu: No one can handle all of their power at once.

Garmadon: Selfish fool. Did you think I wouldn't plan on your betrayal?

Samukai: What's happening to me?!

Garmadon: You've fallen right into my master plan. Not even I can handle all of their power!
...
Garmadon: Father is no longer here! Good and evil, there has always been a balance. Where I go, the balance can be destroyed. Soon I will be strong enough to possess the Four Weapons, so I can recreate the world in my image! (To Wu.) You! You were always his favorite. (Goes through the portal and escapes the Underworld.)

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Tbh the weapons did went in space at MFTL+ Speed which is why I brought the speed argument

Speed matters nothing here considering KE has no effect since they are above the speed of light also all the weapons were going at the same speed so KE doesn't matter.

*They got destroyed by a power equal to them (The Mega Weapon is simply a combination of the 4 GWs togheter. I just want to make that clear)

Your whole point is about scaling a feat of the mega weapon to all 4 golden weapons which are obviously inferior to the mega weapon which is a combination.

Garmadon went to the Realm of Madness just to gain enough strength to be able to counter that issue (Which was handling ALL of their power)

None of that talks about their individual full power but the ability to use all 4 weapons, being capable of manipulating the 4 elements≠ manipulating all elements with 4-C potency.

 

[Scarletjet]

Speed matters nothing here considering KE has no effect since they are above the speed of light also all the weapons were going at the same speed so KE doesn't matter.

Your whole point is about scaling a feat of the mega weapon to all 4 golden weapons which are obviously inferior to the mega weapon which is a combination.

None of that talks about their individual full power but the ability to use all 4 weapons, being capable of manipulating the 4 elements≠ manipulating all elements with 4-C potency.

Appearing out a nowhere stealing my arguments

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Appearing out a nowhere stealing my arguments

I will be out a here then

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Your whole point is about scaling a feat of the mega weapon to all 4 golden weapons which are obviously inferior to the mega weapon which is a combination.

huh? This is not the feat of the Mega Weapon

None of that talks about their individual full power but the ability to use all 4 weapons, being capable of manipulating the 4 elements≠ manipulating all elements with 4-C potency.

No, it refers to the ability of witsthanding the power of the GWs togheter, not the ability to manipulate the 4 Elements which Garmadon already had . Garmadon litterally said this after Mr Samukai died to the GWs, and that's backed up by the pirate's fate when trying to hold the Mega Weapon, Completly 2 unrelated things

 

[AigerTheKing]

None of that talks about their individual full power but the ability to use all 4 weapons, being capable of manipulating the 4 elements≠ manipulating all elements with 4-C potency.

Notice how its written "their power" and not "their powerS"

Why tf is this even discussed again? Like DarkDragon said, we already went over this, stop clogging this thread:

We already went over the elements thing being UES as well as creation feats. But the star creations aren't implied to be casual compared to physical attacks and what not.

 

[Scarletjet]

huh? This is not the feat of the Mega Weapon

It's a feat for the mega weapon against all golden weapons which is currently scaled as if each golden weapon is as strong as 1 mega weapon

No, it refers to the ability of witsthanding the power of the GWs togheter, not the ability to manipulate the 4 Elements which Garmadon already had . Garmadon litterally said this after Mr Samukai died to the GWs, and that's backed up by the pirate's fate when trying to hold the Mega Weapon, Completly 2 unrelated things

I think he meants powers not specifically elements

 

[Lloydblitzed]

We already went over the elements thing being UES as well as creation feats. But the star creations aren't implied to be casual compared to physical attacks and what not.

It's a feat for the mega weapon against all golden weapons which is currently scaled as if each golden weapon is as strong as 1 mega weapon

Like I said, I agree with Wu's Tier 4, and the GW's being Tier 4 when they explode. What I disagreed with was trying to scale to those feats, but that's based on the UES which I have no clue about.

How many times do I have to precise that we are not scaling a Single Golden Weapon to the Mega Weapon, but all the 4 weapons togheter to the Mega Weapon (basically comparing 4 apples to...4 apples). Also, the GWs feat is, and I quote, just a supporting feat, the 4-C/4-A dimensions feats, especially Mindaro's, are what are currently argued to be used for a higher value and to support Wu's feat

I don't think it's ever mentioned Mindaro's magic is good magic, it's just a special kind of magic that he can use by making whatever he paints come to live and where his emotional state affects his drawings. Good and bad magic have never shown their properties being changed based on emotions. (Bad magic is inherently bad and the opposite for good magic. They are never shown to change properties based on the user's emotions)

1. You need to prove that all Magic that scales to each other draws from the same source or can convert from one type to another
2. Good, Dark and Djinn magic are not the only kinds of magic as many other spells aren't labeled as a specific kind of magic (Fungus' and Mindaro's magic for example)

What I call "Good Magic" is just non corrupted/non evil magic btw

I think he meants powers not specifically elements

Its made pretty clear in the show that handling all of their power togheter is very different from handling the power of a single GW or using the 4 elements

 

[Scarletjet]

How many times do I have to precise that we are not scaling a Single Golden Weapon to the Mega Weapon, but all the 4 weapons togheter to the Mega Weapon (basically comparing 4 apples to...4 apples). Also, the GWs feat is, and I quote, just a supporting feat, the 4-C/4-A dimensions feats, especially Mindaro's, are what are currently argued to be used for a higher value and to support Wu's feat

One of the feats you were using to scaling them to main cast is them fighting each other with 1 golden weapon.

Its made pretty clear in the show that handling all of their power togheter is very different from handling the power of a single GW or using the 4 elements

You want to scale base ninjas to the full power of the golden weapons+ mega weapons when you very clearly agree that the power of the golden weapons is far above ninjas base powers

 

[Lloydblitzed]

One of the feats you were using to scaling them to main cast is them fighting each other with 1 golden weapon.

Huh no? I only used Kai fighting Garmadon with the Mega Weapon

You want to scale base ninjas to the full power of the golden weapons+ mega weapons when you very clearly agree that the power of the golden weapons is far above ninjas base powers

The Mega Weapon's only contribution was getting blown to ashes, else no time paradox fixing. We already over this too, here, and into 3 other 7-11 pages CRTs. Re-reas the OP at this point

 

[YmTheSuper]

The Star feat is the only of 2 AP feats the Golden Weapons togheter have

As I mentioned multiple times this feat happened under the influence of the Megaweapon so it wouldn't scale to them normally.
Even if we ignore that, the golden weapons are being unstable during the feat and aren't behaving normally (They are flying into each other and then merging and getting shot into space, there is a clear outside influence as they wouldn't just do this normally by themselves)

the other one being created a Super continent

They didn't do this normally or by themselves since it was the FSM who used them to create Ninjago (one of the God-Tiers in the verse), there's no reason to believe this is their regular output.

If we want to talk about casual feats for the Golden Weapons then we have two other feats of them making contact that show much lower scale of power. (Both feats are being used in the op as evidence for the main cast scaling the The GWs)

the weapons did went in space at MFTL+ Speed

The fact that they got sent to space at MFTL+ feats further supports that this isn't a normal feat for the GWs and that there was an outside influence on them. We literally see them merge in the series prior to this and nothing like this happens.

Also, what does it change to the fact Garmadon can control their whole power combined

You need to prove that being able to use the Golden Weapons requires one to scale to them or have the same power as them in the first place.
Even then you need to explain why The Golden Weapons Merging and flying at MFTL+ speed into space creating a star and getting physically deformed in the process makes it require 4-C AP to wield.

Why tf is this even discussed again? Like DarkDragon said, we already went over this, stop clogging this thread:

I mainly talked here about replies made directly to DDM's message but yeah most replies being made aren't really contributing anything and are just clogging the thread. Please everyone just wait for more staff response as most things have been discussed extensively.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Speed matters nothing here considering KE has no effect since they are above the speed of light also all the weapons were going at the same speed so KE doesn't matter.

You can’t get an exact value from KE, but you still need an enormous amount of energy to travel at huge speeds.

Your whole point is about scaling a feat of the mega weapon to all 4 golden weapons which are obviously inferior to the mega weapon which is a combination.

Megaweapon is literally Golden Weapons combined + it was literally stated that MW can be only destroyed by the weapon of an equal power which led Ninjas to GWs.

None of that talks about their individual full power but the ability to use all 4 weapons, being capable of manipulating the 4 elements≠ manipulating all elements with 4-C potency.

No? It says you must be as powerful, you are genuinely contradicting the most established thing in the series regarding Golden Weapons.

 

[AigerTheKing]

Bump

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Bump

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Bump

 

[MasqueTLDF]

This CRT still going?
Agree with the 4-C stuff FRA

 

[henryzx900ruly]

Agree.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

This CRT still going?

Unfortunatly

 

[AigerTheKing]

We already went over the elements thing being UES as well as creation feats. But the star creations aren't implied to be casual compared to physical attacks and what not.

I mean Wu did that for the sake of training. So there isn't much reason we should consider him going at peak for this feat. (Also, none of the anti-feats fits the Outlier requirements, because they are done by character in a state below their usual amount of power)

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

In that case, I think it is pretty self explanatory that the star feat is casual.

 

[AigerTheKing]

In that case, I think it is pretty self explanatory that the star feat is casual.

Do you agree with the Mindaro feat as well?

(Where Wu and Garmadon were percing throught the Chroma body so they could fill it in colors and kill him off)

 

[REX9097]

In that case, I think it is pretty self explanatory that the star feat is casual.

So you agree with OP?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

So you agree with OP?

Yeah

 

[REX9097]

Yeah

And Mindaro feat?

 

[GarrixianXD]

I agree with the 4-C tiering through Wu's pocket dimension creation and the mega weapon creating a star. About the scaling, I'd rather prefer the main cast such as Ninjas to be "at most 4-C" instead of outright 4-C, since they're clearly shown to be less powerful compared to the likes of Wu and Garmadon.

Edit: I think Lloyd has valid reasons to scale with Wu and Garmadon, so I suppose an outright 4-C is fine for him.

 

[Antvasima]

@Planck69 @LephyrTheRevanchist @Theglassman12 @ActuallySpaceMan42

Are you willing to help this thread reach a conclusion?

 

[Lloydblitzed]

I agree with the 4-C tiering through Wu's pocket dimension creation and the mega weapon creating a star. About the scaling, I'd rather prefer the main cast such as Ninjas to be "at most 4-C" instead of outright 4-C, since they're clearly shown to be less powerful compared to the likes of Wu and Garmadon.

Edit: I think Lloyd has valid reasons to scale with Wu and Garmadon, so I suppose an outright 4-C is fine for him.

Irc Kai was able to fight reletive to Garmadon in S2 and S1, and they could harm Stone Warriors who were giving some trouble to Wu, so I think they can scale to him too

 

[GarrixianXD]

Irc Kai was able to fight reletive to Garmadon in S2 and S1, and they could harm Stone Warriors who were giving some trouble to Wu, so I think they can scale to him too

Kai battling Garmadon in S1 is very much PIS; the Underworld Lord had 4 arms and each arm carried one golden weapon, not to mention when he got back up, he didn't even pick up any of them to retaliate against Kai; pretty clear he had no killing intentions. As for the S2 battle, all I see is Kai found an opportunity to knock Garmadon back when he was off-guard, not to mention his arrogance and flamboyance got the better of him, causing his guard off; that doesn't give solid scaling, but the Ninjas are "at most 4-C" nonetheless, otherwise, they'd be mauled to oblivion. As for that stone warrior giving issue to Wu... come on, that video is just far too damn short, send a longer clip that gives sufficient events towards that particular fight; don't expect me to remember something I watched over 10 years ago...

 

[Lloydblitzed]

that doesn't give solid scaling, but the Ninjas are "at most 4-C" nonetheless, otherwise, they'd be mauled to oblivion. As for that stone warrior giving issue to Wu... come on, that video is just far too damn short, send a longer clip that gives sufficient events towards that particular fight; don't expect me to remember something I watched over 10 years ago...

Here the full fight. Keep in mind the Ninjas were beating the Stone Warriors after gaining access to their Elemental Powers again too (in the form of the EP Blades). We also see that Anacondrai are consistanly shown here, here, here and here are able to contend with or takes from Wu and Garmadon, and later on, after getting stronger thanks to them unlocking their Elemental Dragon (which is called a higher lvl amp of True Potential from the Ninjago Official Website), they can hold off/harm Anacondrais. Kai and Nya can also fight off Acronix and Krux who are comparable to Wu. And we also see the Ninjas, including Lloyd, being reletive to each other here The Ninjas with Elemental Powers should be comparable to Wu and Pre S8 Garmadon tbh

 

[YmTheSuper]

I assume this can be applied then or are there still discussions regarding how the scaling would apply?

 

[Lloydblitzed]

I assume this can be applied then or are there still discussions regarding how the scaling would apply?

It could but we are discussing about the main cast like the OG 4 Ninjas being "at most 4-C" or outright 4-C (Imo, for the reason pointed out, and a few feats scaling them to Lloyd, they should)

 

[YmTheSuper]

It could but we are discussing about the main cast like the OG 4 Ninjas being "at most 4-C" or outright 4-C (Imo, for the reason pointed out, and a few feats scaling them to Lloyd, they should)

I do think that it would be 4-C rather than "at most 4-C" since the ninja's base key applies to them in every season and it's clear that the gap between the ninja and Wu gets smaller season by season

 

[YmTheSuper]

Also I'll bump my previous counter arguments just in case (Although I just want the discussion to finish at this point)

First of all, I need to mention that without the 4-C scaling from this thread the characters that would scale to it would be High 7-C (there's a 6-A feat but the evidence for it is really vague and unconvincing). I already talked about this in more extent here and here.

I've made a previous summary here but I'll go more into details now.

Now let's go over the feats used in the thread:

Gahraan manipulating stars and planets in his dream dimension:
This could technically be used to scale Gahraan and Wu's dream selves but there's no reason for base Wu and by extension the rest of the cast to scale to this since it's Wu's dream self that interacts with this feat.

Nadakhan creating an illuminated copy of Ninjago:
This is a creation feat and shouldn't scale to his AP because Djinn Magic is not a UES not to mention that a star is never shown in this pocket reality so it can't really be used to scale to star level.

The Golden Weapons create a star:
This is the feat that has been discussed the most and I will summarize most arguments relating to it.
1. The op is going under the assumption that the Golden Weapons regularly should scale to this feat which isn't the case since The Golden Weapons are shown revolving around the Megaweapon (The Megaweapon itself is made out of 4 other golden weapons) prior to fusing and being sent to space, this shows that this isn't a normal showing for the Golden Weapons but rather a special case where the Megaweapon had a clear effect on them. This makes it clear that this star creation feat shouldn't scale to the golden weapons normally. To further support this the contact of the Golden Weapons that the ninja survived used in the thread to scale them to the feat isn't even remotely close to the scale of the star creation feat.
2.Also even if we assume that the feat was preformed by the Golden Weapons alone it wouldn't really matter since we don't scale showing that utilize way more energy than usual to the rest of the feats even with UES (The star creation feat being the highest feat the GWs have shown utilizing more energy than usual since the GWs were acting in an unstable way after attacking the Megaweapon and prior to merging while the contact of the golden weapons creating a small explosion being a regular feat of the golden weapon) (Another example of the impact golden weapons contact being much weaker in effect than the star feat) also the golden weapons got deformed after the star creation.
3.Lloyd having the powers of the GWs only refers to their elemental abilities (each Golden Weapon controls an element) and nothing to do with their scaling.

Wu creating a pocket dimension that has its own sun and Mindaro can make paintings come into life that contain stars in them:
These are the only feat that can actually be used to scale the main cast to 4-C since Wu's dimension was created with the element of creation and elemental powers are a UES. Also Mindaro's feat should scale to his physicals due to magic being accepted as a UES (although I'm not sure if it could be applied to scaling chains if accepted)

Due to only 2 feats existing that can actually scale the mid-tiers of the verse (base ninja and characters that scale to them) to 4-C and due to the next feat that they'd scale to being High 7-C I believe that the 4-C scaling is an outlier and shouldn't be used to scale the main cast (Further supported by the fact that the 4-C feats are pocket dimension creation feats which are prone to being outliers and inconsistent and to PIS)

Bonus: Anti-feats

 

[GarrixianXD]

Here the full fight. Keep in mind the Ninjas were beating the Stone Warriors after gaining access to their Elemental Powers again too (in the form of the EP Blades). We also see that Anacondrai are consistanly shown here, here, here and here are able to contend with or takes from Wu and Garmadon, and later on, after getting stronger thanks to them unlocking their Elemental Dragon (which is called a higher lvl amp of True Potential from the Ninjago Official Website), they can hold off/harm Anacondrais. Kai and Nya can also fight off Acronix and Krux who are comparable to Wu. And we also see the Ninjas, including Lloyd, being reletive to each other here The Ninjas with Elemental Powers should be comparable to Wu and Pre S8 Garmadon tbh

I suppose scaling the Ninjas to outright 4-C is fine then.

Also I'll bump my previous counter arguments just in case (Although I just want the discussion to finish at this point)

Well... 8 of the Golden Weapons needing to fuse to perform the star creation feat may be an issue, though iirc the 4-C creation feat comes from this calculation. Not to mention the energy yield is when the star is only 1 AU away; judging by the Megaweapon creation feat, it evidently travelled far further than simply 1 AU, thus can yield an energy magnitude far greater than 267.320913002 Quettatons. If there aren't multipliers established for the Megaweapon, then the star feat should logically be enacted by the power of 8 golden weapons, which would land you at Low 4-C, if you're using the energy yield of @KLOL506's calculation. I see no reason to infer Wu's creation feat as an outlier.

 

[YmTheSuper]

I see no reason to infer Wu's creation feat as an outlier.

The whole outlier thing is about the fact that there are only like 2 feats that would give the ninja in their base tier 4 scaling while the next feat that they scale to being High 7-C (aka a massive increase in strength) in the entirety of the original show (the first 15 seasons) although if you think that wouldn't count as an outlier then 4-C should just be applied (Although I could see it being High 7-C, possibly/likely 4-C if there are some doubts)

If there aren't multipliers established for the Megaweapon, then the star feat should logically be enacted by the power of 8 golden weapons,

I don't think the golden weapons should scale linearly to the powers of them combined since it has special properties like existence erasure, portal creation (Samukai was using 3 of them with no problems but the moment he used the 4 together he got EEd, not to mention that it's always mentioned that no one can handle their powers at once and never that any less number of them pose any problems to the wielder) and creation.

To make the gap even more apparent we can see that The sword of fire barely did any damage to the Great Devourer even while hitting him in his weak spot while Garmadon destroys the Great Devourer instantly using all the Golden Weapons.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

I don't think the golden weapons should scale linearly to the powers of them combined since it has special properties like existence erasure, portal creation (Samukai was using 3 of them with no problems but the moment he used the 4 together he got EEd, not to mention that it's always mentioned that no one can handle their powers at once and never that any less number of them pose any problems to the wielder) and creation.

To make the gap even more apparent we can see that The sword of fire barely did any damage to the Great Devourer even while hitting him in his weak spot while Garmadon destroys the Great Devourer instantly.

Pretty sure he was referring the the combined power of the 4 GWs and didn't we have a CRT where we agreed that an individual GW = 1/4th of the power of the combined GWs?