Nine is better than Six -Madara Uchiha, probably.

[UltimatePharaoh]

If you don't think that, it's fine. Although you will need more than head-canon to prove your point.

manga scans =/= headcanon.

Quantify and source how that affected Madara's power.

I already did that in the thread itself, so I will just copy-paste it cause you guys never read what I say, just replying as fast as you can, which doesn't make you better in any way, and tbh you were good at first and many others too but you now start acting like KingTempest.

Madara after activating the Rinne Sharingan he got 9 tomoes (9 Tomoes Level) as seen here:-

and here:-

Later he used a high-chakra consuming jutsus like the Infinite Tsukuyomi as stated by Sasuke and God: Nativity of a World of Trees those techniques heavily drain Madara's chakra however after Madara activated the Infinite Tsukuyomi he got only 6 tomoes left (6 Tomoes Level) as seen here:-

then we saw Madara had only 6 tomoes when he lands (6 Tomoes Level)

later when Black Zetsu stabs him we can see that he still got 6 tomoes (6 Tomoes Level)

going on we can see Madara here still got 6 tomoes even after absorbing a tremendous amount of chakra as Sasuke stated (6 Tomoes Level+):-

and at the very least time we saw Madara just right before he turns into Kaguya we saw that he got his 9 tomoes back (Baseline 9 Tomoes Level):-

the next time we saw Madara he already turned into Kaguya and we clearly see that she just got 9 tomoes worth of chakra(Baseline 9 Tomoes Level):-

which implies that at very least Madara >= Kaguya if not way higher since Kaguya only have the baseline 9T level while Madara's level is unknown but he's also 9T level.

basically, if you didn't understand all what I said, the only situation the tomoes decrease in is when the user uses too much chakra but using normal amounts would do nothing and since Kaguya is only baseline 9T level (she just turned from 6T at the very end of transformation) while Madara's level is unknown but he's 9T level that actually put him per minimum at Kaguya level and you can even assume that he's much much stronger.

So basically Prime Madara (9 Tomoes Level) >= Revived Kaguya (Baseline 9 Tomoes Level) > Absorbing Madara (6 Tomoes Level+) >> Post I.T Madara (6 Tomoes Level).

I wasn't actually targeting your point, just that the Jin no Sho mistakenly gives that description to Madara.

Jin no Sho did no mistakes here, it just refers to Madara to be Kaguya Level as I explained, Kaguya was mentioned too in the manga, anime, game, and Jin no Sho itself a lot of times to be so yet she didn't have all chakra, they just saying both equals whether you like it or not.

Did you acknowledge the fact that multiple chapters from Naruto Shippuden were revised and relaunched just to include the same mistakes they had before?

Perspective doesn't matter, what matter is the size of the overall panel the character has and how far into the frame they are, which is why mistakes like these happen. The further the characters are in the frame, the less detail they'll have. That's drawing 101.
The panel of the Jin no Sho and the panel they used from the manga.

if so, then that's not the case for Madara, since he was with 6 Tomoes even in big frames and High-Quality images which you can see itself that the art was good on its own as here for an example:-

despite the whole argument, we talking about, this isn't a normal page, it's a wide one and you can notice the high quality of Madara's drawing, yet we still saw 6 tomoes on his forehead, another one is here.

a big panel for my Madara boi here with the same 6 Tomoes.

yeah also thanks to you, I found two more panels for 6 Tomoes Madara (ofc after I.T) on top of the 6 I got in the beginning which would make The Ratio = 27%

let alone the fact that we got all the 9 Tomoes Scans before the I.T and suddenly it becomes 6 Tomoes after the I.T with literally no single time we saw "real art" always 'an error" which's kinda silly if you think about it, especially that there's 3 "real art" and 8 "art error" continuously with no single 9 Tomoes between them.

If you want to counter me using Hagoromo's statements, just acknowledge that you did the same. You used his statements to reinforce your point that Kaguya only gained her power after eating the fruit, but the 4th databook and Boruto contradicts a lot of that. Kaguya had a base power level and chakra before the fruit, making any attempts to compare the source of their power irrelevant.

Actually, neither of that contradicts Hagoromo's statements, unlike your claim which's proven to be false, Pre Fruit Kaguya was shown without her Rinne-Sharingan, while Post Fruit Kaguya was shown with her Rinne-Sharingan, which come along perfectly with Hago's and Jin no Sho statements, but yeah that wasn't my point, what I was saying that even if your claim of Kaguya equals Ten-Tails is right then it doesn't matter cause Madara already closed the gap of Half a Nine-Tails multiple times.

Sources on how Madara weakened, by how much he weakened or if he even weakened?

Done, Above.

As well as show Sasuke with 9, with no tomoes, with 3 tomoes, Kaguya with 6 multiple times. There's no hope in this discussion because of how dumb it is.

Sasuke Ratio:- 96%
Madara Ratio:- 27%

Yeah, cause having 3 art error while having 63 correct ones is equal having 8 "art error" while having 3 "correct one" that's despite the fact that all the "correct ones" are Pre I.T and all the "art errors" are Post I.T continuously with no break which surprisingly aligns perfectly with my argument.

The description of Amenominaka: "When she activates it, she uses up a large quantity of chakra, so it's a technique that only she, who has an enormous power, can use."
The databook outright states that only Kaguya can use it because she has an immense amount of chakra. Given this is databook in a out-of-universe omniscient perspective, it places Kaguya factually above everyone, including Madara.

completely agrees here, 9 Tomoes Madara didn't exist except for one panel, he activated the I.T immediately (cause that's what he actually wanted to do), then we saw him in the right next panel with only 6 tomoes with a weaker chakra level.

OP, are you stable?

Yes, as far as I know, How about you?

 

[Travgen]

manga scans =/= headcanon.

I say the same.

I already did that in the thread itself, so I will just copy-paste it cause you guys never read what I say, just replying as fast as you can, which doesn't make you better in any way, and tbh you were good at first and many others too but you now start acting like KingTempest.

Madara after activating the Rinne Sharingan he got 9 tomoes (9 Tomoes Level) as seen here:-

I didn't ask for you to explain your point again, I asked you to quantify Madara. How much weaker he got? Do you know by how many times? How weak is a 6 tomoes Rinne-Sharingan next to a 9 tomoe Rinne-Sharingan?

basically, if you didn't understand all what I said, the only situation the tomoes decrease in is when the user uses too much chakra but using normal amounts would do nothing and since Kaguya is only baseline 9T level (she just turned from 6T at the very end of transformation) while Madara's level is unknown but he's 9T level that actually put him per minimum at Kaguya level and you can even assume that he's much much stronger.

So basically Prime Madara (9 Tomoes Level) >= Revived Kaguya (Baseline 9 Tomoes Level) > Absorbing Madara (6 Tomoes Level+) >> Post I.T Madara (6 Tomoes Level).

Now you're talking about baseline levels of Rinne-Sharingan despite no databook or the manga ever mentioning that?

Factually false.

if so, then that's not the case for Madara, since he was with 6 Tomoes even in big frames and High-Quality images which you can see itself that the art was good on its own as here for an example:-

As did Kaguya and Sasuke, even when the panels were also in the same positions as Madara's. The point I'm making is that you're using art as evidence to upgrade one character in an area that many mistakes were made and were never corrected even after revisions.

Actually, neither of that contradicts Hagoromo's statements, unlike your claim which's proven to be false, Pre Fruit Kaguya was shown without her Rinne-Sharingan, while Post Fruit Kaguya was shown with her Rinne-Sharingan, which come along perfectly with Hago's and Jin no Sho statements, but yeah that wasn't my point, what I was saying that even if your claim of Kaguya equals Ten-Tails is right then it doesn't matter cause Madara already closed the gap of Half a Nine-Tails multiple times.

Kaguya was not a princess and the 4th databook states that Hagoromo's beliefs were incorrect, she also had a base power level like every Otsutsuki we've encountered so far. You claimed that Madara should be equal to her if they gained their powers in the same way, except this comparison would've only been valid if we knew if they were comparable in power at a base level. What tells us that Hagoromo is incorrect is Boruto itself, I'm not disagreeing with that.

Sasuke Ratio:- 96%
Madara Ratio:- 27%

Yeah, cause having 3 art error while having 63 correct ones is equal having 8 "art error" while having 3 "correct one" that's despite the fact that all the "correct ones" are Pre I.T and all the "art errors" are Post I.T continuously with no break which surprisingly aligns perfectly with my argument.

As you said, you had manga scans, I do as well, and I assume they're canon. If Kishimoto didn't fix them, it must mean Sasuke appearing with 9 tomoes is correct and not an art error, right?

Sasuke has more appearances than Madara. Madara dies 1 chapter after awakening the Rinne-Sharingan, while Sasuke awakens his on chapter 673 and has it until the end of Naruto. The art mistakes on Sasuke's part were nearly non-existent during Kaguya's fight, except in very small panels or when he has a side position.

completely agrees here, 9 Tomoes Madara didn't exist except for one panel, he activated the I.T immediately (cause that's what he actually wanted to do), then we saw him in the right next panel with only 6 tomoes with a weaker chakra level.

He existed, that's what matters and not the amount of screenplay he had. This is an out-of-universe perspective, it encompasses everything we've had up until this point in time. If 9T Madara existed and appeared [which he did], he's encompassed by this as well.

Yes, as far as I know, How about you?

Cannot confirm nor deny

I will try to get some admins and members to comment on this to either accept or reject your revision. Our discussion will go nowhere.

 

[M3X_2.0]

I already gave my opinion, but I'll do it again. Madara being above Kaguya goes against the narrative (About Kaguya being more powerful to literally everyone there), statements (A lot of them, like Naruto saying the chakra from her is superior to Madara's) and feats (Madara exploding when got her chakra; Limbos (equal to original Madara) fighting against mere Naruto clones, but Naruto himself can't handle her). It's not "art inconsistent" that will disprove this fact.

 

[ElixirBlue]

But wasn't all those points already got responded to in the thread? Like Naruto not seeing 3 eyed Madara?

 

[M3X_2.0]

no

 

[M3X_2.0]

Naruto doesn't need to see to feel the power. Even during the war his sensing abilities could show him literal images of what was happening there, even tho he was thousands of km away from the battlefield.

 

[M3X_2.0]

I'll not even debate this, so don't waste your time answering to this. If you want to know what the supporters think, my opinion is that this should've been closed minutes after the dude used the number of tomoe as an argument.

 

[ArgosaxDespair]

Because the 4th databook tells us from an out-of-universe perspective that Kaguya is superior.

Why didn't you start with this evidence? lol
As for the CRT, I agree with M3X. This is a complete waste of time.

 

[Planck69]

Honestly, I'm surprised the staff even gave this the time of day...

 

[Damage3245]

I have to agree with the majority that this revision isn't going anywhere and we currently have another active Naruto CRT that should be focused on. So unless there's any further objections I will be closing this thread.

 

[UltimatePharaoh]

I didn't ask for you to explain your point again, I asked you to quantify Madara. How much weaker he got? Do you know by how many times? How weak is a 6 tomoes Rinne-Sharingan next to a 9 tomoe Rinne-Sharingan?

OMG, really you guys are just trolling with me at the moment, didn't I refuted to this like.... thousand times ??? LMAO, do you even bother yourself to even read what I said, how many times should I copy and paste it for you to understand basic logic?

this my last time explaining that its not my fault if you can't understand it.
this is BASIC LOGIC MATHS A + B =C.

6 Tomoes Madara transformed to 9 Tomoes Madara just right before he turned to Kaguya at the last moment.
How Madara turned to Kaguya ? by absorbing the chakra he just released also known as Infinite Tsukuyomi Chakra.
therefore Kaguya = 9T Madara = 6T Madara + I.T chakra.

I can't make it easier for you, sorry.

Now you're talking about baseline levels of Rinne-Sharingan despite no databook or the manga ever mentioning that?

Factually false.

simply, I don't need to, I used basic sense here, my guy. anyway, I will just copy it here, and yeah try read it this time.

we know for a matter of the fact that the only situation the tomoes decrease in is when the user uses too much chakra but using normal amounts would do nothing, in example Sasuke uses his chakra to perform a low-chakra jutsus like Chidori and his tomoes doesn't decrease.

and, since Kaguya is only baseline 9T level (she just turned from 6T at the very end of transformation) while Madara's level is unknown but he's 9 Tomoes level too that actually put him per minimum at Kaguya level and you can even assume that he's much much stronger.

So basically Prime Madara (9 Tomoes Level) >= Revived Kaguya (Baseline 9 Tomoes Level) > Absorbing Madara (6 Tomoes Level+) >> Post I.T Madara (6 Tomoes Level).

>= means greater than or equal

take note, that this baseline argument is for proving that Madara > Kaguya, which I'm not really pushing for, even without it they both equals, it doesn't effect my argument even in the slightest.

As did Kaguya and Sasuke, even when the panels were also in the same positions as Madara's. The point I'm making is that you're using art as evidence to upgrade one character in an area that many mistakes were made and were never corrected even after revisions.

Sasuke Total Correct Arts = 63.
Sasukes Total Mistakes = 3.

Madara Total "Correct Arts" = 3.
Madara Total "Mistakes" = 8.

So, despite the fact that Sasuke is shown way more times than Madara which logically should have more errors than him, the fact that Madara's "Mistakes" > Madara's "Correct art" by around 3 times, let alone the fact that all the "Correct Arts" are Pre I.T and all the "Art Errors" are Post I.T continuously with no break which again surprisingly aligns perfectly with my argument, and you still treating both with the same way. that's how ridiculous you are.

Kaguya was not a princess and the 4th databook states that Hagoromo's beliefs were incorrect, she also had a base power level like every Otsutsuki we've encountered so far. You claimed that Madara should be equal to her if they gained their powers in the same way, except this comparison would've only been valid if we knew if they were comparable in power at a base level. What tells us that Hagoromo is incorrect is Boruto itself, I'm not disagreeing with that.

that clearly wasn't my claim so I will just copy and paste it again (this the third time I'm doing this btw)

"But yeah that wasn't my point, what I was saying that even if your claim of Kaguya equals Ten-Tails is right then it doesn't matter cause Madara already closed the gap of Half a Nine-Tails multiple times."

That what I was referring to, you get it wrong not my fault.

As you said, you had manga scans, I do as well, and I assume they're canon. If Kishimoto didn't fix them, it must mean Sasuke appearing with 9 tomoes is correct and not an art error, right?

Sasuke has more appearances than Madara. Madara dies 1 chapter after awakening the Rinne-Sharingan, while Sasuke awakens his on chapter 673 and has it until the end of Naruto. The art mistakes on Sasuke's part were nearly non-existent during Kaguya's fight, except in very small panels or when he has a side position.

For The Last Time, Sasuke's 2 or 3 mistakes does not equal "Madara's Mistakes" that's equal 3 times more his "Correct Arts"

Madara's dies after one chapter is irrelevant here. since all his appearance Post-I.T is 6 Tomoes which's btw 3 Times more than his appearing with 9 Tomoes which all were Pre-I.T except one which's when he got -surprisingly- the I.T chakra back.

He existed, that's what matters and not the amount of screenplay he had. This is an out-of-universe perspective, it encompasses everything we've had up until this point in time. If 9T Madara existed and appeared [which he did], he's encompassed by this as well.

Nope, the moment Madara awakened his eye he immediately activated his I.T, he didn't even stay for a sec.

Cannot confirm nor deny

I will try to get some admins and members to comment on this to either accept or reject your revision. Our discussion will go nowhere.

Yes, Please Do, or actually, Damage already gonna close it after all, so yeah.

 

[Damage3245]

I opened the thread to allow Ultimate to have his final response that he had prepared.

I'm re-closing the thread now.