Natsu Dragneel vs. Demiurge

[Moritzva]

Fair, but manipulating them into an incredibly specific and complicated thought path leading them into world domination is a bit more in line with it all. As far as I know, Albert Einstein wasn't capable of world domination based on his mind, after all.

He just seems exceptionally capable and quick to think to me. If you watched the exact sequence in the anime for after Jircniv left the Tomb, it's quite incredible that Demiurge was able to manipulate and predict such a massive sequence of events, and that's just one spec in his plan. Such manipulation in a 30 minute interview is quite impressive.

Extraordinary Genius is described as "..executing complex strategies even under high pressure, and potentially even accurately predicting the future through sheer mental calculations.." and Demiurge certainly plays out massive, world-spanning plots before Ainz can even figure out, and world domination is pretty stressful, while also able to predict the actions of people to an uncanny degree.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

For the last time people, Demiurge isn't a Demon. They have those in Overlord, and they're a completely different thing than what Demiurge is.

This^

This is very true. Demiurge is an Arch-Devil.

And this^ are a complete wat? moment. If you are serious (my god do I hope you guys aren't), I can't even. Thats as dumb as saying Ainz isn't a skeleton (he clearly is) but an an "Overlord". (Inhales ... deeply) boys, its a subrace, just like Imps and Arch Devils. Click the link below, Ctrl+F and type in "demon" or "devil". Guess what are considered demons in Overlord ovo

http://skythewood.blogspot.com/2015/06/O44.html

@Pixel

On the extreme genius thing, Dem being way smarter than Ainz isn't really evidence for it. Planning the world domination stuff is but Ainz is just good at prepping for PVP with info despite his roleplay build, not some strategic genius/master manipulator like Lelouch or Aizen.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

And this^ are a complete wat? moment. If you are serious (my god do I hope you guys aren't), I can't even. Thats as dumb as saying Ainz isn't a skeleton

Wow. We better take that statement at complete face value from Zaryusu, who knows absolutely nothing about YGGDRASIL.

Even then you're still hilariously wrong, as Demons are a subrace of devils going by that statement, not the other way around.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

@Anonymous

OK, so we made a mistake. Just the link and a small correction would've sufficed. Defintely didn't need the rest your commentary about it...

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

@C2

Don't worry, they're still wrong.

@Anonymous Get me a quote from someone who actually knows about YGGDRASIL or Word of God before you act so pretentious.

 

[Moritzva]

Yeaaaaa...

Demiurge still seems to be close to Extraordinary Genius level imo but that's just me.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

And just to put the last nail in the coffin on Anonymous' argument:

Here is Demiurge's official stats.

Here's Ainz's officail stats.

"Thats as dumb as saying Ainz isn't a skeleton (he clearly is) but an an 'Overlord'"

double-checks Ainz's official profile

"Skeleto Mage"

double-checks Demiurge's official profile

doesn't see "Demon" on any of his racial descriptors

notices that there are actual Demons in Nazarick like Evil Lord Wrath

Give me a break. Everyone in the New World refers to random stuff as 'Demons', heck they call Ainz a demon multiple times. What, is Ainz a demon now? Check your own sources before calling someone else's argument dumb.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

@Dargoo

Character who left his village for years to go learning about stuff and we can't take what he says at face value why?

Didn't mean for it to be pretentious but take it as you will.

@C2

Sorry about that. I can get carried away sometimes.

@Pixel

I agree on the extraordinary genius part just not Ainz being evidence for it. You could use Albedo since she is responsible for running the Sorceror Kingdom and whatever else Ainz doesn't/can't run and Dem and Albedo are supposed to be equal to each other and PA in intellect.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Character who left his village for years to go learning about stuff and we can't take what he says at face value why?

No, "character who knows absolutely nothing about actual demons from YGGDRASIL, and is contradicted by official sources not calling Demiurge a demon on his listed races, and various other new-world characters, some of whom are more intelligent than him calling unrelated characters such as Ainz demons"

But you can take that as you will as well. If you want to treat characters who know nothing of YGGDRASIL and got their info from myths hundreds of years in new world past as Word of God, you can be my guest.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

And when people from Nazarick contradict what was said by him then yeah I will not agree with him.

People calling Ainz and co demons doesn't make them demons. Zaryusu was defining what demons were in the New World and with how so much stuff works the same/is interchangeable/compatible between it and Yggdrasil, why should this be any different when we've been given nothing that tells us otherwise?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Because in Nazarick you have actual demons, such as Evil Lord Wrath, and people who aren't even mentioned as Demons, such as Demiurge.

Because Zaryusu can't make any claims on things in YGGDRASIL due to not knowing what it is. The burden of proof is still on you, get me a statement from someone who is familiar with YGGDRASIL's races.

Because Races AND Subraces are listed on the character profiles (See post above, Ains is actually referred to as a skeleton mage there, there is no mention of demons on Demiurge's profile)

Because you have to prove a statement using reliable sources, the crack stories Zaryusu heard on the road hardly qualifies. I don't have to disprove a statement from someone who isn't qualified to make it.

Because I've already stated how New Worlders call plenty of things that aren't demons as such and Zaryusu isn't more qualified than them.

Because even if we assume you're absolutely correct, Zaryusu calls Demons a subrace of Devils, not the other way around like you're imagining.

But go on, really. Keep on stretching a random statement to pretend your argument has any weight.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I'm also going to request we drop the topic of Demiurge's race, as it's beggining to heavily derail this thread as we're talking about a CRT which would have to happen on top of another CRT. Talk to me on the Overlord General Discussion if you want to continue this debate.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

I don't think we need to continue since we clearly aren't going to agree and I don't like bringing potentially rude discussions to other threads/walls. Goes against my "leave bad shit in the one thread" policy.

The arguments for Dem say -

>Soul destroying. Resistance doesn't work because reasons

>Hordes of summons. Natsu apparently isn't one shotting them in the 100s (did this to dozens to a few hundred of Avarez soldiers at a time each of which are about 7-C/High 7-C) because reasons

>Command Mantra. A given weakness to it is a strong will but Natsu doesn't have a strong will because reasons

>Insanity. Since we both agree Wrath is actually a real demon lets hope no one will dispute it not working

>Natus doesn't just Roar because ...

Actually I don't believe we went over this. Why isn't this just roar gg? Dem isn't physically comparable to anyone just way stronger than Baseline City and weaker then Ainz not using PW (correct me if I'm wrong). On his profile, it says Dem's -

- AP is 6-C because he knows two Tier 10 spells (when 6-C comes from Super Tier) and that he is "considered peers" with Al and Shally (isn't Victim a "peer" as well?)

- Striking is 6-C because he can also fight physically. I mean, so can mage Ainz but that wouldn't put him at 6-C striking

- Durability is 6-C because he should be able to take hits from Al and Shally?

Ignoring how iffy that is, if we do scale him physically because reasons, what is Natsu's win con here? He doesn't have a one shot available and "apparently" gets one shot and hax stomped by what Dem spams and leads with. Its not like he is gonna be treated like Ainz where they just brawl physically which is the only way for Natsu to win short of his opponent just standing there.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

>Soul destroying. Resistance doesn't work because reasons

That's a pretty bad way to dismiss an argument without actually refuting it; pretending it doesnt exist. We agreed that resisting your soul being removed does not equate to resisting your soul being destroyed. Putting together all functions of a hax under an umbrella of resistance that only showed it could negate one aspect of it is a No Limits Fallacy. Someone mentioned Natsu resisting his soul being burned, however he didn't outright negate it, and Demiurge's hax instantly obliterates it.

>Command Mantra. A given weakness to it is a strong will but Natsu doesn't have a strong will because reasons

We already mentioned how the level weakness shouldn't apply as in the New World levels aren't a thing, and the skill has thus far not been demonstrated to be negated by something like physical capability. The only time it was resisted was with the use of a special item.

As for your issues with AP - make a CRT. Demiurge should be able to scale to the other Guardians by any metric. Being able to harm them by any measure should give him >15 gT AP given how Shalltear could survive a Super Tier spell almost casually. Given that his main forms of offense are magic - you get the point, hopefully.

If you have more qualms, make a CRT and link it here and I'll discuss with you there. This isn't a Content Revision Thread.

 

[Moritzva]

Demon resistance is not on the profile. Make a CRT.

Mental resistance is not on the profile. Make a CRT.

Soul destruction resistance is not on the profile. Make a CRT.

Your vote can not and will not count unless you either make new points or pass a CRT for just about every point you've made, honestly.

If anything, let's CRT for Extraordinary Genius Demiurge...

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

So...what's the vote count?

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Exactly, so I ask again, what is Natsu's win condition?

 

[Moritzva]

He has an AP advantage and could power up/destroy Demiurge if given the chance. It's just exceptionally unlikely to happen.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

His AP is negligible and he ... can't power up with anything. The only thing that would have let him do that was the Hellfire but that apparently one shots him. What else you got?

 

[OpMasada]

"Levels aren't a thing in the NW".............'''''what'''''

 

[Moritzva]

Nothing. It's decisive. You spent all this time arguing how Natsu should win, though, so that means this is probably not a stomp.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Except everything I argued, which prevented him from being oneshot/hax stomped, has been thrown out the window. I literally can't think of anything that even lets Natsu hang in this match up.

 

[Apeironaxim]

"Levels aren't a thing in the NW".............what

^

Didn't Enri summon better goblins because she leveled up in her Commander class?

 

[OpMasada]

"Levels aren't a thing in the NW".............what

^
Didn't Enri summon better goblins because she leveled up in her Commander class?

I don't want to derail this thread over something as small as this, but just want Dargoo to know that "levels not existing in NW" is false, ignoring other characters speaking of "leveling up", even the damn character cards show their levels.

 

[FDrybob]

"Levels aren't a thing in the NW".............what

^
Didn't Enri summon better goblins because she leveled up in her Commander class?

She summoned better Goblins because she met some very specific conditions during the battle with the First Prince's army which made her Horn of the Goblin General show its true power. Ainz was surprised by it since nobody had reported finding that effect back in YGGDRASIL. As far as I can tell, her commander levels just make her better at leading armies.

 

[Apeironaxim]

When the Kingdom's army pursued the non-combatants, she uses the second horn and manage to summon 5,000 powerful goblins due to her level up in class Commander.

This is what the wiki says, but I can't confirm due to not having that volume

 

[FDrybob]

I think having a certain amount of commander levels is just one of the requirements for the special effect.

 

[Apeironaxim]

Idk, that's what the wiki says, if you have something different I'd like to see it, seeing as the wiki can have some dubious info on occasion

 

[FDrybob]

From Volume 9 Chapter 2:


"In YGGDRASIL, this item had been unable to reveal its true value and was discarded as a trash drop.

However, in this New World, this item was about to unleash its true power.

Let us go over the name of the item once more.

"Horn of the Goblin General".

Its true power, revealed only when three conditions were met, was..."


Being a commander or higher is probably one of the three conditions, but there is definitely more to it.

 

[Akreious]

I'm pretty sure "Levels" in the New World is just a way of saying "You got better" or "You gained experience".

I can, in real life, "level up" from a Brown Belt to a Black Belt. Doesn't mean levels are *actually* a thing?

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Did some research .

Levels ARE a thing in the New World.

A character, Neia Baraja, was killed and revived by Ainz. Due to this she lost her old levels but gained new ones due to ultimately surviving a war. Before, she had levels in Squire and Archer but lost them and gained levels in Paladin (2), Sacred Archer (3), Evangelist (2) and Founder (4), making her LVL 11.

In practical terms, she went from a low ranking warrior to a more adept one who can actually convert others to her line of thinking with a special ability. She's basically started a cult that hold Ainz as a righteous figure and look at weakness as a sin.

It's also noted that Ainz could create really powerful undead at the cost of EXP but doesn't because he can't farm like he did back in the game due to how the world works and the fact that he's so high leveled in a world where you'd be legendary at LVL 30 and he's LVL 100.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Correct me if wrong, but I don't see what's the problem with this match just because Natsu is at a big disadvantage. He can, still, totally get up into Demiurge's face and murderize him with pure power.

I would agree if Demiurge starts far away enough that Natsu has no possible chance of bridging the distance or having sufficient distance to just react and constantly teleport out of harm's way.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

This is a bad match for me, cause Demiurge exists in a world with very strict rules, cause it's a video game, however Natsu exists in a world where rules can be broken, If Natsu was in the Overlord world, what level would he be, what stats would he have, what class would he be and what kind've special skills would he have, I'm sure that Demiurge's Level 100 stats would dominate Natsu if he was any lower level, and the game world force Natsu to follow the rules of the world, however if Demiurge existed in Fairy Tail, I'm sure Natsu's pure magic power could overpower anything Demiurge has and could eat Demiurge's Hellfire and completely overpower him with raw power
This is a battle between a verse with Strict Rules and a verse with Loose Ones, even with verses equalized, who's verse gets more priority

Point is, I think it could go either way, and vote Inconclusive

This is still my problem with the match

even with verse equalized, I don't think the match works

 

[Mr. Bambu]

What

This match is fine, but I still vote for Demiurge

 

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

Demiurge for the reasons above.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

I feel you that's ratching up the differences a bit too much. Natsu still has more firepower than Demiurge, game or not. Demiurge's flames do their thing and Natsu doesn't get merked because "video game rules", but because his feat for soul destruction resistance aren't up to par. Whether he can eat Hellfire or not also doesn't matter in my eyes, it's whether he could actually react and eat them before they affect him, which he has no reason to because he shouldn't know what is coming and where it's coming from, simple as that.

Then there's minions, which he can totally punt but would take stamina, time and some of them have hax, and spells like teleportation that has nothing to do with game mechanics.

 

[FDrybob]

Demiurge for Dargoo Faust and ThePixelKirby's reasons.

 

[Blahblah9755]

My vote is still Demiurge FRA.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Mine also goes to Demiurge via intelligence, Hellfire, army of demons and spells like teleportation.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Demiurge - 9 (Bambu, Rin, Fdry, Blah, Lsir, Pixel, WHYNAUT, C2, Blah)

Natsu - 2 (1997KD, Schnee)

Incon - 1 (DemonGodMitch)

Grace began one hour ago. Please tell me if I missed a vote, however some of the early votes were invalidated due to misconceptions about which key I used for Natsu.