Shibai Ōtsutsuki vs Zeref Dragneel

[PrinceofPein]

Not sure if Shibai would be able to perceive a timeline nuke (his 2B range justification is terrible). Intent reflection has to show it can reflect Type 2 Concept and low 2C AP.

Zeref has no low 2-C attack, just his hax is low 2-C. The time rewind/erasure.

 

[Kayzz]

I meant what his “Transcendence” state actually grants (like HDE, BDE, NEP) him. I don’t know about perceiving an entire timeline’s erasure. His Prescience doesn’t seem to actually perceive an entire universal spacetime continuum’s future but certain events within said continuum’s future. Which is why I said the justification for his 2B range is terrible. Alongside the fact that said futures don’t actually seem to exist but are only possibilities “snuffed out” when the current actions don’t align up leading to them.

His transcendence grants him outer-dimensional existence at the very least. Momoshiki quoted, "He is not in their dimension." Their dimension is a 4D time-space. He is not bound by the rules of their universe which includes space, time, energy and matter. So low 2c destruction realistically won't affect him.

Further proof is characters with clairvoyance, retrocognition, precognition, spiritual awareness, cosmic awareness and trans-dimensional awareness cannot see or sense Shibai. He is completely imperceptible to the Otsutsuki and to people with his own power.

The only info we don't have is whether Shibai attacks or interacts with the world in his transcendence state.

“For abilities such as Precognition, and those of a similar nature, to qualify for Universal+ range, characters should have feats and statements that confirm their abilities to perceive the entirety of a 4-dimensional space-time continuum's future.”

Not necessary here.
Shibai uses clairvoyance and retrocognition, not just precognition. He can pick any point where he can gain info on the abilities of his opponent. And he can look at least 1000 years into the past (much older than that, tbf)

Iirc even an infinitely layered “normal” ability means nothing in the face of the same ability achieved through metaphysical forces. Layered resistance/immunity to “normal” time stop does not compares to a non layered time stop that can be achieved or reinforce through a concept Type 2.

All right.

However, I'm of the opinion Zeref can't win even with this. If it were just base Shibai, yeah, the win-con is solid. Though would depend on how in-character Zeref would use it before Omnipotence takes effect.

 

[MountainWine]

Zeref has no low 2-C attack, just his hax is low 2-C. The time rewind/erasure.

It’s listed in his AP section. He’s significantly affecting a good portion of a timeline, which is sufficient enough to be considered AP.

 

[Kin201]

It’s listed in his AP section. He’s significantly affecting a good portion of a timeline, which is sufficient enough to be considered AP.

It's technically hax. It's included in his AP section to inform others that his hax is at that level of potency. Someone with that level of durability wouldn't be able to tank it.

Though, I think arguing over this is pretty useless.

 

[MountainWine]

His transcendence grants him outer-dimensional existence at the very least. Momoshiki quoted, "He is not in their dimension." Their dimension is a 4D time-space. He is not bound by the rules of their universe which includes space, time, energy and matter. So low 2c destruction realistically won't affect him.

The only info we don't have is how Shibai attacks in his transcendence state.



Not necessary here.
Shibai uses clairvoyance, not just precognition. He can pick any point where he can gain info on the abilities of his opponent. And he can look at least 1000 years into the past.

All right.

However, I'm of the opinion Zeref can't win even with this. If it were just base Shibai, yeah. But full power transcendence key, most likely ends in a statemate because we don't know how Shibai attacks in that state.

Traveling/existing outside of a spacetime doesn’t make somebody transcendent to it in anyway. It certainly doesn’t grant Tier 2 durability or resistance to timeline/history erasure. I don’t think simply possessing Tier 2 durability alone is enough to tank timeline/history erasure. Specific forms of BDE, HDE, NEP, or Acausality would be required to resist timeline/history erasure.

Clairvoyance doesn’t mean viewing everything across entire universal spacetimes.

I do agree Shibai takes this. Just expanding on Zeref’s possible wincon. Since this isn’t a stomp, it can be added.

 

[Kayzz]

Traveling/existing outside of a spacetime doesn’t make somebody transcendent to it in anyway. It certainly doesn’t grant Tier 2 durability or resistance to timeline/history erasure. I don’t think simply possessing Tier 2 durability alone is enough to tank timeline/history erasure. Specific forms of BDE, HDE, NEP, or Acausality would be required to resist timeline/history erasure.

In an SBA what is the consensus on timeline erasure, if both opponents have origin from different universes?

Clairvoyance doesn’t mean viewing everything across entire universal spacetimes.

Yeah, it doesn't.
However, Shibai's clairvoyance can see on a trans-dimensional scale and look into the past as well. Surely there should be info on neo-eclipse in Zeref's past.

I do agree Shibai takes this. Just expanding on Zeref’s possible wincon. Since this isn’t a stomp, it can be added.

What is your reasoning for Shibai's win?

 

[Samlex1234]

Clairvoyance doesn’t mean viewing everything across entire universal spacetimes.

I don't know what you are talking about because his Prescience and clairvoyance works exactly like that. He can see Infinite possible future beyond the Naruto universe space-time.

 

[MountainWine]

In an SBA what is the consensus on timeline erasure, if both opponents have origin from different universes?


Yeah, it doesn't.
However, Shibai's clairvoyance can see on a trans-dimensional scale and look into the past as well. Surely there should be info on neo-eclipse in Zeref's past.


What is your reasoning for Shibai's win?

I believe it depends on the cosmology of both verses. As timeline erasure of the past wouldn’t necessarily affect certain characters whose cosmology branches off into alternate timelines. Timeline erasure of the past, present, and future would still affect such characters regardless.

I don’t disagree that he info analyzes Zeref in a matter of moments, I just don’t think he can perceive an actual timeline erasure.

Most likely to occur with Info analysis followed by mind and memory manipulation.

 

[MountainWine]

I don't know what you are talking about because his Prescience and clairvoyance works exactly like that. He can see Infinite possible future beyond the Naruto universe space-time.

“For abilities such as Precognition, and those of a similar nature, to qualify for Universal+ range, characters should have feats and statements that confirm their abilities to perceive the entirety of a 4-dimensional space-time continuum's future.”

^Range Note

He’s seeing countless futures events within a certain area. Not the entirety of countless (or even a single) universal spacetime continuum’s futures.

 

[Kayzz]

I believe it depends on the cosmology of both verses. As timeline erasure of the past wouldn’t necessarily affect certain characters whose cosmology branches off into alternate timelines. Timeline erasure of the past, present, and future would still affect such characters regardless.

But here lies the problem with timeline erasure.
Timeline erasure doesn't necessarily mean Existence erasure. Even if Zeref erases the timeline, characters originating from a different timeline can move into a different dimensional space before he erases it and they won't be affected by the timeline erasure because they don't have history from that timeline. We have seen this with Zen'o in DBS.

Now will those characters be able to return to the old timeline, no (unless they have resistance to void manipulation). However, with trans-dimensional awareness and trans-dimensional travel, they would be able to sense the opponent and return to the newly created timeline.

I don’t disagree that he info analyzes Zeref in a matter of moments, I just don’t think he can perceive an actual timeline erasure.

Most likely to occur with Info analysis followed by mind and memory manipulation.

Okay.

 

[Zackra1799]

Why would omnipotence work on Zeref to begin with? As mentioned before his conceptual space time manip is passive, it would rewind his own space time to before omnipotence takes effect.

Ada's passive version of it would also not work since that would trigger Zeref's passive death hax, this version of it is outside of Zeref's control and is an unintended consequence of his curse, so daemons ability wouldn't reflect it either since it lacks intention.

Zeref can employ Neo Eclipse with a thought as he just has to enter the Space Between Time to use it, he can do so by simply teleporting there which he can do just by thinking.

 

[KaydeeX]

Neo eclipse isn’t doing sh*t to Shibai.
Prescience is almost instantaneous. Koji used it while in the midst of battle against Jigen.
The progression of events would be;

• Shibai sees Zeref teleporting out of sight, and is unable to sense him passively.
• He uses Prescience immediately to detect what’ll happen next.
• He then teleports to another dimension where Zeref can’t reach him due to an inferior range.

Zeref passive time reversal only reverses damage inflicted upon him. Omnipotence isn’t damage.

 

[Zackra1799]

Neo eclipse isn’t doing sh*t to Shibai.
Prescience is almost instantaneous. Koji used it while in the midst of battle against Jigen.
The progression of events would be;

• Shibai sees Zeref teleporting out of sight, and is unable to sense him passively.
• He uses Prescience immediately to detect what’ll happen next.
• He then teleports to another dimension where Zeref can’t reach him due to an inferior range.

That's 3 three thought based actions to Zeref's 1, he'd already be conceptually dealt with by then

Zeref passive time reversal only reverses damage inflicted upon him. Omnipotence isn’t damage.

Not at all true, read his profile, literally says perfect control over space-time, reversing damage is only one application.

 

[KaydeeX]

That's 3 three thought based actions to Zeref's 1, he'd already be conceptually dealt with by then

Zeref literally thinks to teleport, and think again to activate NE which we don’t know how long that’ll take.

Not at all true, read his profile, literally says perfect control over space-time, reversing damage is only one application.

He has only been shown to revert damage done to him. You have the burden to prove he can revert mind manipulation which totally clads the thought of who he is and how his abilities work.

 

[karo_senpaii]

1. Ascension key cannot be used so the arguments of HDE shibai is not even relevant
2. If Zeref time manipulation is really conceptual then i don't think it can be reflected

I still think it's either incon or shibai takes this though. It's a question of who activates what first but prescience gives shibai a slight advantage. He'd probably see a future where zeref kinda erases him i guess. He can use omnipotence to control zeref, reprogram him literally. these 2 things i can't see how it activates his time rewind stuff. But i can see it being incon since both of them starting moves are thought based.

 

[Kidkinsey]

Hey guys don't forget shibai also has codes claw marks, that's a shinjutsu

 

[PrinceofPein]

I vote shibai

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

A Shibai battle? Wonder how that works seeing as we know nothing bout him at all in terms of combat or even ability usage.

 

[Kayzz]

1. Ascension key cannot be used so the arguments of HDE shibai is not even relevant
2. If Zeref time manipulation is really conceptual then i don't think it can be reflected

I still think it's either incon or shibai takes this though. It's a question of who activates what first but prescience gives shibai a slight advantage. He'd probably see a future where zeref kinda erases him i guess. He can use omnipotence to control zeref, reprogram him literally. these 2 things i can't see how it activates his time rewind stuff. But i can see it being incon since both of them starting moves are thought based.

They claim that Zeref can conceptually freeze Shibai in time, then move into the Space between time to perform neo eclipse.
You know if Zeref's time stop is also tied to the concept of the space between time? If not, then that claim is mute.

 

[karo_senpaii]

They claim that Zeref can conceptually freeze Shibai in time, then move into the Space between time to perform neo eclipse.
You know if Zeref's time stop is also tied to the concept of the space between time? If not, then that claim is mute.

Apparently zeref time magic is from the space between time

 

[Kayzz]

Apparently zeref time magic is from the space between time

So then, this depends on who gets the first strike between omnipotence and time stop.

Edit: my vote still on Shibai. I believe omnipotence gets the better of Zeref in a head-on clash against his timestop.
And Shibai has a defence that could possibly null Zeref's attack - intent reflection

 

[thedaymare]

A Shibai battle? Wonder how that works seeing as we know nothing bout him at all in terms of combat or even ability usage.

Well, we know at least that he is vastly superior to everything we have seen. Has the broken haxxy shinjutsus to another level, meaning more broken than they actually are currently, based on that we can speculate how powerful he could be or has been.

Btw, passive reflection is my fav, too broken GG. My vote is for Shibai.

 

[Samlex1234]

Apparently zeref time magic is from the space between time

Guys space between time or not it does not matter. Intent reflection does not reflect attack it reflects intent.

 

[thedaymare]

Guys space between time or not it does not matter. Intent reflection does not reflect attack it reflects intent.

You understand very well how it works, I mean at least me and my friends debate daily, and they don't seem to comprehend that is not just a common and simple reflection ability, is well beyond that, but people seem to think is like Melioda's full counter for some reason, anyway good explanations.

Would it be possibly so broken that even if you plan to time travel to a past when Daemon didn't have it, it may still reflect it, since that would cause harm to his current and future self? Lol I think it may but not sure if I'm going too far, would like your opinion.

 

[Samlex1234]

Voting Shibai

 

[karo_senpaii]

You understand very well how it works, I mean at least me and my friends debate daily, and they don't seem to comprehend that is not just a common and simple reflection ability, is well beyond that, but people seem to think is like Melioda's full counter for some reason, anyway good explanations.

Would it be possibly so broken that even if you plan to time travel to a past when Daemon didn't have it, it may still reflect it, since that would cause harm to his current and future self? Lol I think it may but not sure if I'm going too far, would like your opinion.

It's definitely not like full counter. It reflects the end result of what you planned to do I.e something that hasn't even happened in reality. That's casuality manipulation

 

[Iabihs]

Seems like Zeref has a wincon but is slightly less unlikely to use it then shibai due to shibais foresight (especially via SBA)

Probably Shibai, a good 7 or 8/10 Times.

My Vote if it means anything Goes Towards Shibai

 

[MasqueTLDF]

My vote goes for Shibai too, he just has better abilities imo.

 

[Sasukesama0492]

I m voting for Shibai

 

[Epiccheev]

Shibai seems to have a lot more going for him tbh. In special, a counter for almost everything Zeref can do. Shibai FRA

 

[Deceived3596]

We entered Grace when Kayzz cast his vote, which was Thursday. An entire day has passed since then, so the required amount of time needed for a versus thread to be considered apply-able has been given, and has subsequently passed. So this thread can be added to both profiles without issue