Kazuma_kuwabara
She/Her- 4,435
- 2,054
Chill this
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Shoto (MHA) vs Natsu (Fairy Tail)
- Thread starter TheRustyOne
- Start date
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While AnonymousBlank seemingly started it, and is still doing it a whole lot more, you two both need to stop with these personal attacks.Yup, you’re a dumbass.
Once again proving your illiteracy.
Breaking news, Danny’s absence of education an literacy strikes again!
Let me try and break it down for your empty head.
OmgYou definitely have to be trolling. I refuse to believe any human, even one afflicted with every mental illness and condition known to man, could be this stupid.
Read the words I am responding to you clown.
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At this point I don't really know what you are trying to say. I don't even have the time to bs with you as you simply lack knowledge on whatever you think you are saying.
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Please don't tell me I lack knowledge because, by your own admittance, you don't understand what I'm saying, I think that's childish.
My point is:
All these feats are great, however, none of this proves Shoto can null Natsu's flames. Abilities are limited to what is shown and what is stated. If I'm shown to be able to set a piece of wood on fire with my powers, it wouldn't make sense to jump and say I could melt steel with those same powers.
Shoto nulled Dabi's flames while they got stronger. That's great! It really is.
Natsu's flames are far hotter. Therefore, because Shoto does not have feats comparable to Natsu's, he will not be able to nullify his flames.
It's that simple.
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Basically nothing worth noting.
Are you sure about this or do you want me to point out the several times you called phosphor an element. Atleast if you wanna lie then make it believable since I remember a certain state of yours calling phosphor an ice technique.
His necrosis comes from is ice and his fear resistance comes from from his strong will.
Give proof of him countering unexpected blitz? Where does his profile state enhanced sense? Where does his profile say he can it whatever he wants? where does his profile write eating non elemental stuff?
Do you know how many times I have caught you contradicting yourself and pointed it out. You've literally been writing stuff completely off point and calling it a debunk.
If it nlf the prove it, because from where I stand, no ft debators have any sort of debunk here.
OK now you definitely don't know what you are reading. Did you see his other profile btmy any chance?
Would you mind point out the part where I said "all I did was give others people's opinions" I would really like to know when I said such a thing because all am seeing here is another lie.
Are reading the back of your phone or laptop? How does these match with the case am making on shoto blitzing natsu here.
How am I contradicting my self? I just told you am planning on starting ft anime. My last statement was not a debunk of any sort, I was just telling I do some research on the verse and had minor info about ft.
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Ability being limited to what they have shown to do is indeed a true logic. But, you also have to take into account the statements and mechanics that back up said technique.
Shoto created a body that can't be harmed by flames.
Shoto was unaware of dabi's temperature output but still neg him.
Phosphor null dabi flame once it made contact with shoto.
No matter how you see it, Phosphor doesn't have the weaknesses that you guys implied.
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None of this is grounds to say "shoto's phosphor can nullify any flames" to be honest.
Natsu eats it gg, still voting for him.
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Because you don’t understand how burden of proof works. If you claim a positive, you need to be able to back it up when asked for evidence of such.
Still not reading what I am saying, good to know. But keep trying to squeeze out even the barest hint of a dub on a point you have already conceded to … not like that actually matters since you flip flop on what you are saying within the same post.
So not on the profile and not on the profile. Peak argument right there.
Literally right after Superhuman Physical Characteristics? If you wanna pretend you read the profile, at least make it more believable. Look at Absorption and I gave you the scans of the latter.
And you still haven’t learned what a steelman is but go on. Go post my supposed contradictions.
… do you actually know what a NLF is? What you’re asking me to do is to prove a negative aka the height of stupidity. The onus is on you to prove Phosphor is capable of negating Natsu’s flames or affecting him with its cold via actual feats or statements, something you have already conceded that you cannot do. It’s why you keep spouting nonsense like Phosphor being able to null the sun.
Because you clearly don’t even know what you are talking about, this is the profile covering the Kamino arc where Bakugo escapes AFO with the help of Deku and Co. Take note how there is no fear manip resistance and his supernatural willpower doesn’t cover fear manip either, just pain tolerance and from much later in the third movie. This one is for the Final Act and actually contains Supernatural Willpower and Fear Manip Resistance to resist fear hax, something I already agreed exists. And yet it still doesn’t support your off topic claim that Bakugo resists fear hax because of the events in the Kamino arc as some roundabout way to scale Shoto to it.
Here is you telling me what a bunch of randos think about Phosphor to which I respond that none of that matters since it’s all opinions. Here is you telling me that you were giving the opinions of other people.
You either don’t know how the English language works, the definition of the word “lie” or you are just lying. The last one in particular being a completely pointless endeavour when, as I said before, we can all scroll up to check and see the truth for ourselves.
Because if you are prepared for a tennis ball to be thrown at your face and still can’t dodge, block or catch it, the speed at which it is travelling is very clearly implied to be beyond your ability to track with your eyes/respond appropriately. A tennis ball thrown at your face when you don’t know it’s coming or, in the example you gave before, from ******* behind of all places, could be moving a million times slower than you and still hit you. There is absolutely nothing that is impressive about the second while the first is. One is you being caught unawares, the other is your awareness of it changes nothing.
Natsu’s sense of smell let’s him successfully counter speeds so fast that his skill (which enables him to counter attacks he cannot even perceive with his eyes) cannot do Jack against when his guard is up. Shoto’s is just catching Dabi offguard when Dabi wasn’t expecting a blitz.
You claim you know stuff about FT but then immediately follow it up by saying your knowledge is limited and that you haven’t watched the anime. Let’s not forget you were the one who claimed I don’t understand what I’m debunking when you followed it up with you saying you don’t understand it yourself. You don’t even know your own verse to argue it, let alone mine. That’s called not knowing shit about the series.
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How have I not backed it up? Literally you've never even once debunk my claim on phosphor working more like the real thing.
The only way you could debunk my claim is by calling horikoshi dumb or everything behind the the creation of phosphor a coincidence.
I also backed up my claim by giving two link to phosphorus and phosphorus retardant. Your only method of debunk is claiming that the two method that link shoto phosphor to the real deal is a coincidence.
Literally are you even aware that mha verse takes place in a similar setting to our world. The only differences is that mha takes place far in the future. Their are literally quirks in mha that would give you science info because horikoshi got the idea from real life stuff.
We basically have someone like bakugo whose quirk is similar to nitroglycerin as an example. We literally have overhaul to who's quirk explanation relate to science also.
Theirs also also the fact that even shoto never called phosphor cold fire. What he said/called it was "sort of like cold fire" implying it is not cold fire but a different model of something else.
This is horikoshi way of of mixing science in fiction but I already told you that science in fiction doesn't make sense and that is the reason phosphor will forever remain weird because ice and fire can't create something similar to the real deal and work exactly like it.
The ice and fire shoto mix to create phosphor works as an internal charger while once phosphor burst out of shoto chest it is not hot or cold. Shoto is the one capable of deciding which element he wants to use and he can use both simultaneously.
How did you come to that conclusion
? Last time I checked you did say anything important there and I was pointing out what you've been doing.It on his profile. All what i said are just sub ability based on the real thing. How the he'll are you not getting this?
Didn't notice the enhanced senses that one on me. None of this state how natsu is gonna counter a blitz. His enhance sense page only said this:
Using his physical senses, he can sense a targets location, sense a target's true physiology, sense dangerous attacks, sense intention to do evil, sense invisible beings, sense if a spell is on an object, sense if someone's smell matches the smell of something else, and sense if someone is alive or not even if they have been absorbed
Even his absorption page doesn't bring any proof of him eating Phosphor and as for the explosion scan you sent, explosive are still related to fire that carries more force.
If you want to see your contradiction go back and check most of the bold part in my comment because unlike you, I have got things to do rather than bring something that I have already called you out for doing on multiple occasions and even bolded it for you to see but you shyed out, snubbed it and also changed topic.
I will be posting scan/link that proves all my claims today.
Thier are 3 instance I brought on why shoto would resist fear one being in kamino the other being in 1st war arc and the last being him willing deciding to face afo instead of letting all might do it.
Fear manipulation is not a wincon against shoto with or without bakugo scaling because one of the main theme in mha is going PLUS ULTRA and do you know what that means, it means going above your limits and standing and facing fear in the eyes. Natsu fear manipulation would prove to ineffective against shoto.
Also natsu doesn’t seem to use his fear manipulation for combat. Not seeing how this can even be considered a wincon against shoto.
In the first statement I also said that it shouldn't bother and did I once told you shoto is immune to fire? I gave you other people opinion to tell you that phosphor doesn't work the way you are thinking. Phosphor is not getting nulled by higher heat shoto haven't seen before. With shoto phosphor, it cannot be Fire > Phosphor because phosphor neg both flames and heat.
And as for the second link you posted, I told you that it was because of limited info that makes people think phosphor is total immunity. I think rusty has already debunked the claim of phosphor being flame immunity from the beginning of this thread.
I was never giving you other people opinion and telling they where right, I was giving you other opinion to show u how others misinterpret phosphor. I specifically told you that it shouldn't bother you.
This does not add anything to yours or my point and neither does it subtract any. So do pray tell, what where the wrong I claimed that you so desperately want to prove?
From what am seeing, this was just a waste.
Your example I'd different from what I gave you. I never used a tennis ball, I said soccer ball. The scenario I also used is different from what you are currently using.
I will entertain this scenario. Do you know how fast is a human thought? If a tennis ball where to be thrown at your face, even if you can’t dodge it your brain would still be aware that it about to hit you. The tennis ball can never blitz your perception. Let say that I was directly aiming to fire a tennis ball at your eye ball, the probility of that ball hitting your eye ball is pretty low because your thought is well aware of what's coming and your ice is gonna be closed when that ball eventually hit.
Example 2, if I where to face your back and then I whistled to gain your attention then immediately fire the tennis ball at your eye ball, the probability of it hitting your eye ball will be lot more higher than before even if your eyes saw it coming.
This is the case here, natsu and shoto speed are equalised here, shoto can still blitz natsu here because natsu wouldn't be expecting such given that both would be fighting equally in speed. Even if natsu should still feel to blitz coming he wouldn't be able to dodge in time even with his enhance sense and shoto would still hit him.
I said my knowledge on ft is minor but am still planning on watching the anime. I also remember telling I also do research on most of your claims, my word's add up.
I said you don't understand what you are trying to debunk because you don't still understand phosphor then until recently when you started posting that even if Phosphor is not an element, natsu can eat non element like explosive. I don't see how am wrong here.
As for your last link, it doesn't seem to work for me. And if it links you want I will be bringing some later today or tomorrow because am out.
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Can Shoto’s ice do anything here?
And what are Natsu’s wincons summarized.
And what are Natsu’s wincons summarized.
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Shoto’s ice is doing nothing here unless he uses internal attack on natsu. His main wincon is based on phosphor that nullify flames.
Basically this are both of them wincon:
Natsu wincon
Light absorption that null attack
Fear manipulation (not working)
Eating Phosphor (not working)
Shoto wincon
Freezing natsu (not working)
Necrosis/hypothermia via internal freezing
Phosphor
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other than dealing damage via piercing attacks, not really.
Natsu has a few wincons, amping himself enough to get through Shoto's fire resistance and phospher, grabbing shoto and beating him down with h2h, possibly absorbing Phosper, outlasting Shoto's stamina since Phospher takes a lot out of him to use continuously.
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I see, if there’s nothing new being discussed then I guess we can vote based on arguments presented.
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rusty even asked earlier if this isn't a stomp because almost everything shoto can do apparently gets negged
fire? it's literally natsu. he's immune to it.
ice? basically flash-melted since apparently this natsu has heat scaling chains that put his fire around insta-turning-sand-to-glass heat.
phosphor? it's been argued he eats it, but even if you wanna steelman and say "nah he can't eat it" shoto's phosphor has no feats of nulling fire on the level of natsu's heat so it doesn't do anything
in CQC natsu is more skilled so the 1.07x AP advantage shoto has is virtually irrelevant
he also has rage/emotion amps to make him stronger
mind you i don't even read fairy tail i just looked at the thread cuz it seemed interesting and danny has not convinced me that shoto wins
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I did no convinced you because your opinion is not willing to change.
I never made any debate for fire or ice working on natsu here. There's also no argument that natsu can eat phosphor. Blank best counter for natsu being able to eat phosphor comes from natsu eating explosion which is still fire.
Natsu profile didn't even agree with being able to eat anything similar to phosphor if you've checked. Natsu also being superior in cqc doesn’t add anything, shoto is not dumb when it comes to such a thing and it not like natsu is so much skilled in cqc that he would blitz shoto with his movements speed, no matter how skilled natsu is shoto would still react to him as speed is equalised.
You are free to believe what you want, but just so you know non of you have brought any counter for Phosphor not working here and you just keep on saying phosphor get eaten with the reason why despite you yourself saying you don't know much on the verse.
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Here are some of shoto feat:
● Froze a nomu and shattered it bones in seconds.
● Froze chimera inside out as a method of incap
● Can simultaneously move others with his ice while also attacking at the same time
● Threaten to rot villains skin with his ice
When shoto should null natsu down, he can use internal attacks as a wincon. As we've seen already, his internal attack can easily cause necrosis and hypothermia is less than a second to all might level opponent. His dura neg is also very potent.
● Froze a nomu and shattered it bones in seconds.
● Froze chimera inside out as a method of incap
● Can simultaneously move others with his ice while also attacking at the same time
● Threaten to rot villains skin with his ice
When shoto should null natsu down, he can use internal attacks as a wincon. As we've seen already, his internal attack can easily cause necrosis and hypothermia is less than a second to all might level opponent. His dura neg is also very potent.
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my opinion is actually very willing to change
you're just not doing a good job of that
blank is far more convincing and is actually bringing arguments that aren't the equivalent of "phosphor negs"
i know you didn't, i was simply mentioning those as those are shoto's go-to options in a fight, and neither work on natsu, putting him at a huge disadvantage because 2/3 of his "moveset" so to speak is nullified
this is just being disingenuous OR you didn't read what blank said. his "best counter" isn't 'uhhm well natsu can eat explosions so he can eat phosphor'
the counters are basically "natsu and other slayers can eat basically anything in the series, including shit that - even in FT's wack standards - don't count as elements, like anti magic"
see below
i don't think i ever implied natsu would blitz NOR that shoto is dumb
but when 2 people with (virtually) identical AP fight in physical CQC, the more skilled one will win. that's how skill works.
like i mentioned earlier, natsu has rage and emotion amps that translate directly into magic power which would make him stronger (putting shoto at the disadvantage) if he gets mad.
BUDDY
my reasons for phosphor not being relevant are "natsu might be able to eat it BUT even if you want to steelman the argument and say he can't eat it, because phosphor doesn't have feats of nullification on natsu's level of heat, it wouldn't be able to do anything to him"
it'd be like throwing an ice cube into a volcano and saying "well ice cools stuff so clearly it'll be fine"
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What good job has blank been doing? I have literally upped him in every time we clash on this debate.
What argument does blank that comes off as all that impressive? The only wincon I can acknowledge natsu has is the light absorption technique.
Also, stop trying to make claims that your opinion can be swayed, it doesn't make your delusion more believable.
I remembered saying that natsu can eat element and magic related stuff, if he can eat anti magic, I don't see how that equate to him being able to eat phosphor.
You know what? I find it ironic that you guys called phosphor nlf for being able to null fire attacks when it literally the definition horikoshi (mha author) gave us but think natsu being able to eat anything is legitly. This definitely makes you guys argument look biased and completely illogical.
This is basically a bland and boring argument. How is the most skilled one gonna win here? Shoto is not gonna stand their and let natsu throw multiple blows at him without doing shit. The more skilled one is not gonna be winning anything when he certainly lack what it takes to be the Victor.
Natsu rage amp is nothing compared to dabi who by the way has been resisting death since he was 13. Literally current dabi is basically a burnt corpse now and is still to angry to die lol. Rage amp certainly doesn't put natsu at any advantage.
Basically your logic behind phosphor not nulling natsu is an assumption. You example also doesn't work out here. Shoto being able to null fire even on natsu level is a fact because the main reason phosphor exist on the first place is because shoto wanted a body flame couldn't burn. Natsu fire can never be superior to phosphor because phosphor main logic is to null fire attacks.
Like that isn’t enough, I also posted a real science explanation to give you guys an example of what phosphor retardant really is and also as a proof of it being similar to what shoto created. You guys chose to ignore evidence and instead go by assumption wanting to prove natsu wouldn't get nulled.
No matter what way you see it shoto rate at winning this is higher than natsu.
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calling me delusional because i disagree with you doesn't do anything to help your argument - i've already asked you to cool it with attacking ME instead of the arguments i make, so please stop.
it's not completely illogical.
every time i try to mention that abilities are limited i say "they're limited to what they have been shown to do or can reasonably be assumed to do"
if, based on previous showings, natsu can reasonably be assumed to eat stuff made of both ice and fire or whatever the hell, then it would make sense
but EVEN THEN - i said "let's steelman the argument and say natsu cannot eat phosphor", i'm trying to engage with you and shoot down your points
i never implied shoto would stand there, you aren't reading what i'm saying.
if 2 people fight in purely physical H2H or CQC or whatever you wanna call it - the more skilled one will win. that's basically what skill is. if A and B have identical strength, speed, and A is more skilled than B, A will win.
here, AP is (slightly) different but for the sake of the argument it is basically identical, it's a 7% difference.
speed is equal.
if natsu is more skilled than shoto, he will win.
what does this have to do with "natsu is already almost equal to shoto in AP, if he gets a rage amp he will get stronger and be at an advantage"
idgaf about dabi being too angry to die lol, he isn't in this fight
i bring it up again: shoto says "a body flame couldn't burn"
if i throw him in the sun while he has phosphor active he's still dying. idgaf about what you think, considering earlier you admitted it was literally your own theory.
since you want to talk about phosphor retardant anyway, if i threw it into the sun, it also wouldn't do shit.
before you go and misinterpret me bringing up the sun as trying to imply natsu has fire as hot as the sun - no, i'm not doing that. i'm just using it as an example of something extremely hot here.
literally your only argument that phosphor can null natsu is that
excuse my abrasive language but nobody gives a flying FUCK about what phosphor's "main property" is, because what you're doing at this point is wanking it to the point of saying it would be able to turn off the sun if shoto had the range because "well it's made to null fire so it can null any fire"
that is exactly what a No-Limits Fallacy is.
natsu's heat is hotter, it would be like dropping an ice cube into a volcano and being surprised when it doesn't do shit.
so. there's the argument that it can be reasonably assumed natsu could eat phosphor. you can disagree, sure, but the evidence is there for other people to agree if they so choose.
and AGAIN - if you steelman the argument and say "nah he can't eat it" - phosphor lacks the potency to do anything to natsu's flames, and thus, it's irrelevant here.
shoto's options are fire, ice, and phosphor.
fire is useless against a fire dragon slayer.
ice gets melted.
phosphor either gets eaten or completely ignored due to it lacking the potency.
KingNanaya
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Natsu slams FRA
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for the record - if it wasn't already clear - i'm voting natsu. i think this might be a stomp but that's not for me alone to decide, other people should look at both character's wincons and see.
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natsu fra
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- Thread starter
- #145
I'm also certain this fight is a stomp.
Others have said it better than me, but Shoto has no actual win conditions here beyond Natsu deciding he wants to stand still and do nothing.
Shoto can possibly delay his defeat by using Phosphor to defend only, but using it as an attack won't do much to Natsu who has ice resistance and can heat himself up with his fire. So both his Phosphor and Flames may as well be useless. All Shoto has is his ice, which isn't going to do anything to someone who his resistance and has hotter fire.
Others have said it better than me, but Shoto has no actual win conditions here beyond Natsu deciding he wants to stand still and do nothing.
Shoto can possibly delay his defeat by using Phosphor to defend only, but using it as an attack won't do much to Natsu who has ice resistance and can heat himself up with his fire. So both his Phosphor and Flames may as well be useless. All Shoto has is his ice, which isn't going to do anything to someone who his resistance and has hotter fire.
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AFAIK shoto needs a moment of concentration to get phosphor going and if he loses said concentration he can drop phosphor too, i belive blank already mentioned how natsu would definitely be able to take advantage of that should it happen.
i BELIEVE his ice and fire are basically spammable as long as he alternates so he doesn't get hypothermia (from overuse of ice) or HYPERthermia (from overuse of fire)
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- Thread starter
- #148
Shoto just has speed amp with no set value, he's just faster.
Natsu can also amp his own stats as well, not certain if there is a set value.
Stamina is pointless, the fight isn't going to drag out long enough to make it important.
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alright, so phospor is out, but if he has way better stamina and spams ice attacks with speed that's faster than what natsu can deal with till the latter gets tired that may be a win con
altough i have no idea about their stamina, so i'm just saying maybe
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- Thread starter
- #150
His ice attack speed is equal to Natsu due to speed equalization.
Only his Flames and Phosphor have the speed amp, and they aren't blitz or anything close to that.
Kazuma_kuwabara
She/Her- 4,435
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not really blitz, but just continuously spamming the ice attacks and overwhelming natsu with them until he tires
is that possible?
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- Thread starter
- #153
Natsu's flames are vastly hotter and will melt through his ice. Shoto's ice lacks any way of pushing Natsu back either.
Natsu's range/AOE is also vastly superior standing at Kilometers to Interdimensional, compared to Shoto's Hundreds of Meters.
Pretty sure Natsu's spamming is also faster, since Shoto will need to heat his body up if he uses too much ice.
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yup, if that's the case this is a stomp
my boy shoto has no wincons
thanks for the info rusty
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maybe i should actually read fairy tail so i can argue for natsu's side in other MUs
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art is kinda terrible tbh(just started reading it 2)
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damn. you think so? i always kinda liked mashima's style
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You’re right that it isn’t the best at first but it definitely improves over time and is fire af soon enough (around the early 100+ iirc).
Rule of thumb, never read stuff to argue in MUs and always read to enjoy. If you don’t enjoy it, drop it.
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yeah, story is good from what i see so far, characters seem to have motivations and backstories that will be expanded on soon and the power system seems interesting
the art isn't really terrible, it just isn't good, not really a deal breaker
in it for a ride my boys
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Shoto doesn’t seem to have any chance here. If this somehow isn’t a stomp I guess I’ll go with Natsu.
