Nasuverse Revisions Part 2: Root Scaling

[Elizhaa]

Honestly, what is the major evidence that Greater Grail would have all powers in Nasuverse?

Asides from this point, I am fine with what is in the OP.

 

[Regidian]

Honestly, what is the major evidence that Greater Grail would have all powers in Nasuverse?

Asides from this point, I am fine with what is in the OP.

it was changed with him only getting reality warping 1-A (like his profile showed)

 

[Newendigo]

I'm reading half-way through the thread, going to take a while

Brain is slowly, painfully and surely descomposing itself on a sub-atomic level rn.

 

[PsychoWarper]

Honestly, what is the major evidence that Greater Grail would have all powers in Nasuverse?

Asides from this point, I am fine with what is in the OP.

Yeah iirc only Shiki is getting that now, the Greater Grails are “only” getting 1-A Reality Warping.

 

[Elizhaa]

Regidian and PsychoWarper, okay, I got it.

 

[Antvasima]

QuasiYuri:

Can you, and perhaps some other knowledgeable member, try to properly summarise the arguments here, so our staff can more easily evaluate them please?

@QuasiYuri

 

[QuasiYuri]

Greater Graild would get RW on Akasha's level since it can directly connect to it and all. That's pretty much everything for this thread.

People are complaining regarding 1-A, but it should be another debate entirely.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Greater Graild would get RW on Akasha's level since it can directly connect to it and all. That's pretty much everything for this thread.

People are complaining regarding 1-A, but it should be another debate entirely.

Yeah, until now the 1-A scaling of Root are only to things like RW with Greater Grail, a dude with resistance to soul manipulation and a three persons able to a affect that dude (one of them being Shiki so it's actually just two persons). It was said even from the first thread that no one scale physically to the Root aside from Void Shiki, the rest at the most are some minor things.

And about the complains for the 1-A in general, yes, that should be another debate entirely.

No one seems to have problem with the scaling of this thread to the Root, so can this be closed?

 

[Antvasima]

The problem is that a connection to a 1-A power source does not remotely automatically mean that a character can use anywhere near that much power as @AKM sama argued for recently elsewhere.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

The Greater Grail is not a connection but a means to open a hole through a wall to reach a 1-A thing. With how the tiering system is setup. A wall that blocks a path to the root would also be 1-A. To downgrade that would also mean to downgrade the root.

Hopefully that made sense.

 

[Antvasima]

Can some knowledgeable member try to properly summarise the arguments here, so our staff can more easily evaluate them please?

 

[AKM sama]

The Greater Grail is not a connection but a means to open a hole through a wall to reach a 1-A thing. With how the tiering system is setup. A wall that blocks a path to the root would also be 1-A.

Not sure what is being argued here, but I would need elaboration on this to give any input.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

The problem is that a connection to a 1-A power source does not remotely automatically mean that a character can use anywhere near that much power

Yes, and that's precisely why is that it was already argumented various times that the users of True Magic aren't 1-A, each time someone tried to argument that because the source of their power is the Root itself and thus they are 1-A various knowledgeables of the verse rejected that and counterargumented that that isn't the case. The Greater Grail is a exception and all the knowledgeables agreeded that her RW is 1-A.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

That, yes. Tons of people have connections to the Root, but i only rated the Greater Grails as 1-A with Reality Warping due to it, at it's full power, being a hole that leads directly into the Root, and uses that to grant its "omnipotent" wishes.

It is a lot more of a Void Shiki connection than something else entirely.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

Anyway, a rather elaborate summary of the arguments would be useful for our staff to evaluate.

 

[Blueicemonkey]

I still see the problem that it is a function accomplished by a not so impossible to reproduce ritual, that suddenly makes 'weaker' characters outscale more powerful and capable threats due to a basic connection and blowing out of proportion what the 'punching a hole into the root' means, while also somehow denying any other connection to root as relevant.

Honestly, having Sieg of all characters as the top powers in the setting will on the basis of scaling to something he cannot manipulate will never not be anything but a bad joke, and one of the reasons nobody outside of this community takes the scalings here seriously.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I still see the problem that it is a function accomplished by a not so impossible to reproduce ritual, that suddenly makes 'weaker' characters outscale more powerful and capable threats due to a basic connection and blowing out of proportion what the 'punching a hole into the root' means, while also somehow denying any other connection to root as relevant.

Honestly, having Sieg of all characters as the top powers in the setting will on the basis of scaling to something he cannot manipulate will never not be anything but a bad joke, and one of the reasons nobody outside of this community takes the scalings here seriously.

Actually I have counters for that but I'm at work so it'll have to wait until late night Chicago time

 

[Blueicemonkey]

Actually I have counters for that but I'm at work so it'll have to wait until late night Chicago time

I hope it can counter the fact that Salomon's prologue already specifies that the Greater Grail doesn't always need to bore a path to the root to grant wishes or act in any manner.

Scaling all its functions to that just leads to this kind of senseless view that the Fuyuki Grail related characters are the top of verse.

 

[Overlord775]

I still see the problem that it is a function accomplished by a not so impossible to reproduce ritual, that suddenly makes 'weaker' characters outscale more powerful and capable threats due to a basic connection and blowing out of proportion what the 'punching a hole into the root' means, while also somehow denying any other connection to root as relevant.

Honestly, having Sieg of all characters as the top powers in the setting will on the basis of scaling to something he cannot manipulate will never not be anything but a bad joke, and one of the reasons nobody outside of this community takes the scalings here seriously.

punching a hole to the root IS a nigh-impossible to reproduce ritual, as it's the whole goal of magus as a whole. Also your argument that they are supposedly "weaker" make no sense, Sieg became part of the greatery grail while Angraa is all the world's evil and fused with the grail,

also, Cater Sieg is the terminal of the grail, the thing you use to access the grail's fuctions, aka there's no reason he should not scale

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I hope it can counter the fact that Salomon's prologue already specifies that the Greater Grail doesn't always need to bore a path to the root to grant wishes or act in any manner.

Scaling all its functions to that just leads to this kind of senseless view that the Fuyuki Grail related characters are the top of verse.

My explanation can counter that. In fact, there's more context to what your saying that your missing, and there's also information from other arcs/singularities that explain it

 

[Antvasima]

I also find these kinds of ridiculously high power levels for these characters extremely suspicious.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, a rather elaborate summary of the arguments would be useful for our staff to evaluate.

Can somebody handle this, so I can call our staff please?

 

[Overlord775]

I also find these kinds of ridiculously high power levels for these characters extremely suspicious.

Ant, they are connected to an arctifact that is qute litterally called "Omnipotent" within the serie

The others are scaled a soul that survive dbeing within the already accepted 1-A root, which activelly breaks everything down

it being suspicious is just in your head

 

[Regidian]

Can somebody handle this, so I can call our staff please?

i think that the thing on OP asn't changed except that they don't get every power in the nasuverse only reality warping

 

[QuasiYuri]

I also find these kinds of ridiculously high power levels for these characters extremely suspicious.

I don't see how it is suspicious or ridiculous so far tho. It's mere scaling.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, the issue is whether simply being connected to that level of power source means being able to use it at anywhere near full capacity or not.

 

[Overlord775]

Ant, it was already explained to you not even 20 comments ago

Yes, and that's precisely why is that it was already argumented various times that the users of True Magic aren't 1-A, each time someone tried to argument that because the source of their power is the Root itself and thus they are 1-A various knowledgeables of the verse rejected that and counterargumented that that isn't the case. The Greater Grail is a exception and all the knowledgeables agreeded that her RW is 1-A.

That, yes. Tons of people have connections to the Root, but i only rated the Greater Grails as 1-A with Reality Warping due to it, at it's full power, being a hole that leads directly into the Root, and uses that to grant its "omnipotent" wishes.

It is a lot more of a Void Shiki connection than something else entirely.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay then. I am still uneasy with this, but since QuasiYuri considers it reliable, I suppose that it is probably fine.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Worst case scenario, a "likely" rating can also work. But it's litteraly stated to make a hole the same way one destroy a wall, so I think it is unecessary.

Although the justification should be made very clear, not like Akasha's bad one.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Would you be willing to handle it please?

 

[QuasiYuri]

My computer kinda decided to have the Internet connection level of a can of food, so I can't do much edit as of now.
Could try to write an idea of justification if it's really needed tho.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

1.) The Greater Grail cannot activate its function that bores a hole to the "Outside of the World/Root" if there is still surviving servants. All 7 servants of the main classes must be sacrificed for this function to work. Here is one example; Justeaze cannot activate her functions because there were only 5 servants sacrificed to her.

2.) Singularity F was not a complete Greater Grail. Saber Altria, and Caster Cu were still alive therefore the Greater Grail's Function cannot activate because they were technically still alive according to the rules of the Holy Grail War.

3.) The Greater Grail is the law that decides how much energy in a dimension is used. You can think of it as the worlds rules. This was stated by Da Vinci. Therefore; We can assume that the Grail decides how much energy someone can use.

4.) This gets reinforced as Caster Giles has his Wish from the Holy Grail by getting rejected.

To Summarize my points;

You can't use Singularity F as a way to guage Tiamat and Goetia. It wasn't a complete Greater Grail, and the Holy Grail War that Solomon was summoned in by Marisbury was also not a complete Greater Grail. Marisbury had no use for the Root, and he didn't want to obtain the Root. + Solomon never went back into the grail therefore he was never registered as being "Dead" in that Holy Grail War.

Lastly, The Holy Grail can determine how much power someone should get, and even out right reject giving someone power.

So trying to scale Tiamat, or anyone else becomes an issue when the only Greater Grails that Chaldea has on record for a comparison of power is Singularity F and some events which aren't complete Greater Grails therefore not 1-A Tier in anything.

hopefully this makes sense and i worded thigns right...

Edit: This is in regards to BlueIce with the "Other characters should scale."

 

[Blueicemonkey]

hopefully this makes sense and i worded thigns right...

2.) Singularity F was not a complete Greater Grail. Saber Altria, and Caster Cu were still alive therefore the Greater Grail's Function cannot activate because they were technically still alive according to the rules of the Holy Grail War.

The problem with that argument is that all servants get defeated by the point you end the Singularity, and Lev uses the Holy Grail at that point, so the Greater Grail was completed and Chaldea recorded that:

Mash
Confirming both Saber and Caster have vanished.
...Does that mean we‘ve won?

Lev
It's real. I've connected the dimensions for you.
Having the Holy Grail allows me to do so.

So the later references to the Fuyuki Holy Grail should not be discarded on the basis that it was incomplete. Because it wasn't. It was filled and Lev used it to throw Olga into CHALDEAS. And as your last pic says, the Holy Grail War is still going.


And the one from London is compared to Surtr's energy output while he was still possessing Sigurd:

London:

Mordred:
What the hell is this?

Mash:
...Almost identical to the Fuyuki Greater Grail. Incredible magical energy.
So much magical energy, I can feel it strongly even in the Demonic Fog. Such a giant Magical Reactor Core...

Lostbelt 2:

Meunière:
What the hell? Are our sensors busted!? Crap, no, it's worse. They're working perfectly!
Fujimaru! Holmes! A freakin' enormous magical energy signal just popped up near us out of nowhere!
It's like a Magical Reactor Core! This monster's on par with the Angrboda powered by the Greater Grail we saw in London...!

Dammit, we had no warning whatsoever! The thing just appeared out of nowhere!

Holmes:
It's most likely a Servant. They may have been using their spirit form.

Even without that, I'm still iffy on the whole scaling the path making to the Root into all the functions preformed by the Holy Grail on Sieg's case (Iri's wouldn't even be filled when she becomes a servant, so I guess she is discarded under that logic?).

For starters, the process to get a path to the root using the Fuyuki Greater Holy Grail involves using the returning souls of the servants and then using their escaping souls as a way to make the hole larger, and even that it is not an immediate connection the Root (it is still too far). That's a very specific thing that doesn't seem to be replicable with any of its other functions:

"The Great Holy Grail administers the system of the Holy Grail War. The Holy Grail collects the souls of the defeated heroic spirits and acts as the reactor core to activate the Great Holy Grail."
"And once the Holy Grail collects enough souls to activate the Great Holy Grail, it uses the heroic spirits' souls to open a hole. The Great Holy Grail fixes the small hole created when the heroic spirits return to their original place after their roles are fulfilled. This opens up the passage to the origin that humans cannot reach."
"Of course, this is just the first step. Your wish isn't granted even if the hole is opened. The path to the origin is too far."

The Greater Grail doesn't need to be connected to the root (after using the souls of seven Servants) to use several of its functions, including Wish Granting:

Fate/Zero event:

＠El-Melloi
In my experience, the Greater Grail activates in a limited capacity after the defeat of the fifth Servant.

Salomon (at this point there were only six servant souls in it):

This Greater Grail was not to be used to reach the Root, but to grant one man's wish.

Sieg also doesn't have complete control over it, the control can be wrestled from him (Darnic gets 80% control over it), and he is who is restraining the Grail from granting Amakusa's wish.

Apocrypha's event:

＠Mordred
Custodian, have you started losing ownership of the Greater Grail, or not?

＠Sieg
I have, yes. I'm steadily losing control.

＠Darnic
Have you forgotten what I told you earlier?

＠Darnic
I now control eighty-seven percent[sr]of the Greater Grail's system.

＠Darnic
I will make far better use of it than you ever would!

＠Semiramis
I have a fairly good idea of what's going on here.

＠Semiramis
It was your negligence that led to this situation.
Wasn't it, Custodian?

＠Sieg
...You may be right.

＠Sieg
The last wish remaining in this Greater Grail was one that should never be granted, but it was also nobler than any other wish had ever been.

＠Sieg
I never thought about touching it myself.
I couldn't have even if I wanted to.

In summary, being the custodian of the Greater Grail doesn't scale to the function of the Fuyuki Greater Grail Ritual to open a hole to the Root. The owner of the Grail use its other functions without it being filled.

punching a hole to the root IS a nigh-impossible to reproduce ritual, as it's the whole goal of magus as a whole. Also your argument that they are supposedly "weaker" make no sense, a quite litteral preconcived notion on your part with no backing, also Sieg became part of the greatery grail while Angraa is all the world's evil and fused with the grail,

But making a path to the Root is what several True Magics entail.

From Heaven's Feel:

Even though the details are different, all sorceries are a way to reach the origin!

From Mahou:

"Like you said, even by reaching the Root with the same theory and the same method, if you're not the first, you'll just barely fall short of Magic."

And Marshmallows was making his own path to the Root as well:

FGO - Salomon:

As the head of the Animusphere family and chairman of the Astromancy division... I must reach the Root in my own unique way.

FGO Part 2 - Prologue:

Priest:
Now, time for our last job.
The Pseudo-Celestial Sphere Chaldeas... The miracle that leads to the Root. The miracle that the Animusphere family wished for and dreamed about for over two millennia...
Part of me wishes we didn't have to trample all over this dream, but such is life.
It is the job of adults to teach children the harsh truth of reality. Even the tsar fears this celestial sphere.
After all, changing the past via Rayshifting is the one threat we can't counter.

Also your argument that they are supposedly "weaker" make no sense, a quite litteral preconcived notion on your part with no backing, also Sieg became part of the greatery grail while Angraa is all the world's evil and fused with the grail,

Full power Fuyuki Greater Grail can alter the planet, but so can other characters, who can go even beyond that (Saver altering both the Moon Cell and Earth with Chakravartin, Space Ishtar's Primordial Universe, Goetia affecting ALL timelines in the FGO tree of time, etc.)

Angra Mainyu being born (using the Grail but already outside of it) is a threat on the scale of a Beast (quite literally one that can kickstart the system like Goetia) capable of killing half of humanity from the Heaven's Feel III interview.

also, Cater Sieg is the terminal of the grail, the thing you use to access the grail's fuctions, aka there's no reason he should not scale

All his functions don't scale to the strongest usage of the Grail. His own event is mostly self-contained in the Grail's inner world, in which he even partly loses control of it.

I mean, chocolate making is not exactly the best showing.

Ant, they are connected to an arctifact that is qute litterally called "Omnipotent" within the serie

Do you know how many beings are called omnipotent in Fate?



For Gilgamesh:

Spoiler

Interview - Heavens Feel II:

N: Back when they were alive, both had extraordinary magical energy output so it would be a measure of their firepower. WIth Gilgamesh’s omnipotence and cunning (INT), Gil is slightly advantageous here. If it’s a Servant battle, Dark Saber can win against Gil if the “Master’s capacity as a Mage” is high. Gil can win against Dark Saber if the “Master’s charm as a human” is high.

For the Cup of Uruk:

Spoiler

I obtained the omnipotent wish granter a long time ago.

For Solomon:

Spoiler

Salomon Singularity:

Goetia
Once, there was a king who was omnipotent and omniscient. He was given these powers by God.

Goetia
His eyes could see the past and future, and know all there was to know about the world. We became that man's shadow and saw what he saw.

Though King Solomon had rings that granted him true omnipotence, he used them only once.

During his lifetime, King Solomon returned his rings of omnipotence to Heaven. This Noble Phantasm recreates that legend.

For Goetia:

Spoiler

Salomon Singularity:

Goetia
Are you saying that I, as an omnipotent collective, have a duty to watch over mankind!?

I was omnipotent, but not because Solomon made me that way.


We were born from the distortions in people's hearts, a colony comprised of many demon gods, each granted titles and abilities.


I was transcendent from the beginning. The moment we were born, we were given omnipotence, and the benefit of its perspective.

...Ah, we are... coming apart...


Since our birth, I have known true omnipotence, have never lacked for anything. To lose that, to feel it fading away... We cannot begin to describe this pain...

In his mats:

He is an omnipotent being that not even King Solomon managed to reach.
Originally he has enough qualification as a king that rules over the people.
However, being omnipotent means he is unable to understand human beings; being immortal means he is unable to struggle and reach an answer; and thus, he is unable to become the "king over humans".

Gets even worse in Part 2 of FGO. Like, it's Zeus' introduction each time he is on scene.

 

[Regidian]

The problem with that argument is that all servants get defeated by the point you end the Singularity, and Lev uses the Holy Grail at that point, so the Greater Grail was completed and Chaldea recorded that:

salter is still alive and singularity F still exist we learn after so should be no for here the rest too lazy to even try to read it lol

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I'll respond to this later when i have time

 

[Blueicemonkey]

salter is still alive and singularity F still exist we learn after so should be no for here the rest too lazy to even try to read it lol

Your Salter is the one from Fuyuki. It says so in her materials entry:

Being at the center of Fuyuki City’s Greater Holy Grail in the Prologue “Fuyuki – The Contaminated City in Flames”, Artoria Alter was being guarded by a certain Servant who has a strong connection to her. She appears as a Holy Spirit[1] in “Fate/Grand Order”, and it seems that Artoria was cursed by the Holy Grail in this Prologue.

In her “Interludes”, while she was conducting herself for the sake of training her Master, by being opposed by a Servant who could also be said to be someone born because of the Holy Grail’s Curse similarly like herself, and by being opposed by a Servant who was once called a King similarly like herself, it allowed Artoria Alter to picture her state of being in her mind and reaffirm her own ideal state.

Servants can be resummoned and be destroyed, just to be resummoned again. It's quire literally what happens to Jalter in Salter's Quest.

Also, nobody knows why Fuyuki keeps poping up. It was destroyed at the end of it.

Dr. Roman
It's Earth of the past, not the future.
The Fuyuki Singularity was destroyed, thanks to you.

Also Salter was considered dead by Lev.

Lev
Ah, is this singularity at its limit?
...Cursed Saber. If you'd just obeyed, you would have
been allowed to live.

Cu said that for the Singularity to disappear, but him and Saber needed to be defeated as Mash confirmed:

Caster
Good. If you defeat her, the anomaly in this town will
disappear. Listen, that includes both me and her.

Accel Zero confirms it was dismantled.

Vlad Quest reaffirms the Grail in Fuyuki was recovered, but for some reason the Singularity is still poping up.

So neither of those points contradict that Mash confirmed the death of Salter and Cu.

 

[Antvasima]

My computer kinda decided to have the Internet connection level of a can of food, so I can't do much edit as of now.
Could try to write an idea of justification if it's really needed tho.

@QuasiYuri

That would be appreciated. Thanks.

 

[PsychoWarper]

So this is coming down to the Greater Grail scaling basically? The Soul stuff with Roa and Dantes seems to be ok at this point.

 

[Rez]

A question does king Hassan's death hax scales with the root because it works similarly to the mystic eyes

 

[Antvasima]

My computer kinda decided to have the Internet connection level of a can of food, so I can't do much edit as of now.
Could try to write an idea of justification if it's really needed tho.

@QuasiYuri