Nasuverse Revisions Part 2: Root Scaling

[QuasiYuri]

@QuasiYuri

Got a new computer.
Anyway, here's a proposal:

Outerverse level with Reality Warping (To grant wishes, the Greater Grail directly uses its energy to pierce a hole into the Root, in the same way one would destroy a wall)

 

[PsychoWarper]

A question does king Hassan's death hax scales with the root because it works similarly to the mystic eyes

No, afaik neither the Mystic Eyes or Hassans Death Hax are Root level.

 

[Blueicemonkey]

Got a new computer.
Anyway, here's a proposal:

Outerverse level with Reality Warping (To grant wishes, the Greater Grail directly uses its energy to pierce a hole into the Root, in the same way one would destroy a wall)

The Greater Grail doesn't require anything relared to root to grant wishes. It can function partly with 5 souls, and grant wishes without activating the function to make a path into the Root at 6 souls.

Already posted the process of open the hole to the root in my previous post, which I don't think that has been countered in any way. It uses the souls of the Heroic Spirits returning to make the hole, and then makes it larger. And even then it's a path and you aren't still at the Root yet.

Saying that the Greater Grail or its terminals are equal to the Root is plain wrong.

 

[Antvasima]

Blueicemonkey seems to have valid concerns.

 

[Hasty12345]

I agree, if what Blueicemonkey is saying is true, I think some more debate is needed.

 

[Antvasima]

What do the rest of you think?

 

[Makenai]

Again everyone should pay attention to Blueicemonkey, he made a solid counter argument with scan backing it up, no need to be rushed given that this will grants a character 1-A reality warping.

Equal arguments with scans backing is needed to counter Blueicemonkey's argument.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

What he’s saying isn’t true lol

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Saying the Greater grail isn't 1-A in hax basically goes aganist the tiering system and is akin to saying root isn't 1-A. For something to even remotely open up a path. It has to be 1-A. It's basic levels of transcendence.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

The Holy Grail is used to make a hole in a wall. What lays behind this hole is the pathway that leads to the "Root."

"No. First of all, there's only one administrated land in Japan that can activate a sorcery.

I know the ley line in Fuyuki is first-class, but there's not enough distortion to connect to the origin."

"Right. It's not distorted enough to reach the origin. That's why you make a hole. If the path is obstructed, you have to destroy the wall yourself, right?"

"The Holy Grail War is the process of destroying the wall.
The process accumulates enough magical energy to grant any wish. But that's just a secondary matter for the Einzbern family. And it was also an advertisement to call for the Masters, the sacrifices."

- Fate/Stay Night

"The Greater Grail spent sixty years absorbing prana and used it to cut open a path that would lead to true Magic – opening a hole that would lead outside the world."


"In any case, the granting of wishes was merely a side effect of the Holy Grail. Its true nature was a tool to bore a hole through the world, fueled by the sacrifice of Heroic Spirits of the past. And there was only one task left to perform."

- Fate/Apocrypha

According to the tiering system tiering system below.

Mathematically, 1-A has its size represented by further uncountably infinite cardinals beyond useful applications of certain measures (ℵ2 and onwards, most specifically) and can be extended unto greater levels of infinity, representing different complexities or qualitative "steps" on an Outerversal scale,

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Tiering_System#Tier_1:_Extradimensional

For the Holy Grail to bore a hole through a "wall" that leads a pathway to the "Root" it would need bore a hole through a wall that is like ℵ2. As it leads to the same "outside of the world" [click link for more information] that the "Root" is in according to Fate/Apocrypha. In other words, it is within reach of the Root and not some ℵ3, or stacks/layers of some sort of uncountably infinite number of X-Distance away.



That skill of Saber Shiki is alluded strongly to being comparable to the Holy Grail.

For reference the "outside of this world" which Fate/Apoc uses is also used in Fate/Zero

 

[Makenai]

What he’s saying isn’t true lol

This is not argument and not helping at all.

The Holy Grail is used to make a hole in a wall. What lays behind this hole is the pathway that leads to the "Root."


- Fate/Stay Night


- Fate/Apocrypha

According to the tiering system tiering system below.


https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Tiering_System#Tier_1:_Extradimensional

For the Holy Grail to bore a hole through a "wall" that leads a pathway to the "Root" it would need bore a hole through a wall that is like ℵ2. As it leads to the same "outside of the world" [click link for more information] that the "Root" is in according to Fate/Apocrypha. In other words, it is within reach of the Root and not some ℵ3, or stacks/layers of some sort of uncountably infinite number of X-Distance away.



That skill of Saber Shiki is alluded strongly to being comparable to the Holy Grail.



For reference the "outside of this world" which Fate/Apoc uses is also used in Fate/Zero

I'm pretty sure Blueicemonkey has addrssed the "path" in his argument and do you think that Surtr is 1-A? He have comparable energy to greater grail according to Blueicemonkey scans.

Still think Blueicemonkey's argument is more make sense to me, especially if Surtr's magical core is comparable to a greater grail.

 

[Makenai]

I think this is still need more input from staff.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I'm pretty sure Blueicemonkey has addrssed the "path" in his argument and do you think that Surtr is 1-A? He have comparable energy to greater grail according to Blueicemonkey scans.

Still think Blueicemonkey's argument is more make sense to me, especially if Surtr's magical core is comparable to a greater grail.

Except the argument that the Grail choses how much magical energy it will allow the users was ignored.

This makes ot difficult to scale from any record chaldea has.

see the below
The Greater Grail is the law that decides how much energy in a dimension is used. You can think of it as the worlds rules. This was stated by Da Vinci. Therefore; We can assume that the Grail decides how much energy someone can use.

This gets reinforced as Caster Giles has his Wish from the Holy Grail by getting rejected.

and Singularity F greater grail was never completed. Caster Cu was never an actual participant in that grail war. It was supposed to be solomon but solomon was alive solomon was Romani. Which kind of throws a cork in that grail war to being eternally never being able to be finished.

EDIT: and there is still the issue of the Grail being compared to Saber Shiki's connection to the root skill whom is accepted as 1-A for literally being the Root iirc


+ There is tons of other reasons why other character should scale to 1-A

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

The point about Caster is the more essential thing with all of that, because the true Caster of that war was Solomon (Romani) instead of Cu, something revealed much after because surprise that's the plot twist of all part 1. So the Greater Grail in Fuyuki wasn't completed, at all.

 

[Blueicemonkey]

and Singularity F greater grail was never completed. Caster Cu was never an actual participant in that grail war. It was supposed to be solomon but solomon was alive solomon was Romani. Which kind of throws a cork in that grail war to being eternally never being able to be finished.

At which point was this stated? Cu says that he needs to be killed for the war and the singularity to end:

Dr. Roman
Let me confirm something. You're a Servant from
the Holy Grail War that broke out in this city. and the
sole survivor?
Caster
If by that you mean I haven't lost. Our Holy Grail
War changed to something else entirely along the way.
Caster
I don't know how it happened either. The city was
engulfed in flames, and the humans vanished.
Only the Servants remained.
Caster
Saber was the first to resume the Holy Grail War. That
chap began rampaging like a tiger released from a cage.
Caster
Archer, Lancer. Rider. Berserker.
and Assassin were all defeated by Saber.
Olga Marie
The survival of the Seven Servants...
That rule of the Holy Grail War was broken here.
Mash
And in the end you won, Caster...
Or rather, you're the Servant who survived.
Caster
Yes. Any Servant that was defeated by Saber became
like those two, corrupted by the black mud.
Caster
They, and the monsters that sprung up like maggots,
started looking for something together.
Caster
The troublesome part Is that I'm one of the things
they're looking for. You see. the Holy Grail War won't
end until I'm killed.
Dr. Roman
You and Saber are the only surviving Servants...
Then if you defeat Saber...
Caster
Yes, that would probably end the Holy Grail War here.
But I don't know whether things would return to normal.

He also states multiple times that he was there before the was deviated:

Caster
Good. If you defeat her, the anomaly in this town will
disappear. Listen, that includes both me and her.

In the anime:

Spoiler

In the manga version (Turas Realta):

Spoiler

In the manga version (Mortalis Stella):

Spoiler

Cu is also sent back once the Holy Grail War ends:

You had yet to retrieve the Grail and Lev takes possession of it first:

Olga Marie
Several points are unclear, but let's call this mission
complete.
Olga Marie
First, let's retrieve that crystal.
It's the reason Saber became abnormal...
Olga Marie
It's clearly the reason why Fuyukl City became a
singularity.
Mash
Yes. An immediate retrieval——What?
???
Well, I didn't expect you'd get this far.
Beyond my plan's expectations and my own tolerances.

Lev
It's real. I've connected the dimensions for you.
Having the Holy Grail allows me to do so.

In the Mortalis Stella manga, we see that it is Lev who uses the Grail authority to forcibly unsummon Cu Caster as he was part of that war:

Spoiler

We know from F/SN that the Fuyuki Grail that summons the servants has authority over them:

Nasu: Regardless he was incarnated or not, as long as Gilgamesh was materialized under the Grail System, he could not resist the Grail itself - Black Sakura.

Plus the Fuyuki Singularity had the black mud corruption and was an experiment from the Animusphere, so it couldn't have been Solomon in any case, since he can only be summomed via his ring and Marshmellows wouldn't participate in a Holy Grail War if he knew that it was corrupted.

Caster
Yes. Any Servant that was defeated by Saber became
like those two, corrupted by the black mud.

And I chose Seraphix as my base of operations.
Flauros had previously reported that this facility was one of the causes of the “unobservable region.”

The whole point of the Singularities is that they deviate from the regular history. You can't use the main FGO history as a basis to say that Cu doesn't count when they are saying that he does. And even if you want to say that it was Solomon's war (which is not confirmed at all), and that Cu was changed into the Caster role, it doesn't mean anything for the competition of the Holy Grail, as he is still subordinated to it and there were seven servants present for the reactivation of the Holy Grail War:

Caster
If by that you mean I haven't lost. Our Holy Grail
War changed to something else entirely along the way.
Caster
I don't know how it happened either. The city was
engulfed in flames, and the humans vanished.
Only the Servants remained.
Caster
Saber was the first to resume the Holy Grail War. That
chap began rampaging like a tiger released from a cage.
Caster
Archer, Lancer. Rider. Berserker.
and Assassin were all defeated by Saber.
Olga Marie
The survival of the Seven Servants...
That rule of the Holy Grail War was broken here.
Mash
And in the end you won, Caster...
Or rather, you're the Servant who survived.
Caster
Yes. Any Servant that was defeated by Saber became
like those two, corrupted by the black mud.

The Greater Grail is the law that decides how much energy in a dimension is used. You can think of it as the worlds rules. This was stated by Da Vinci. Therefore; We can assume that the Grail decides how much energy someone can use.

This is referencing a Goetia Grail. I thought those weren't the same thing according to you, so why bring it to reinforce your argument about the Fuyuki Greater Grail?

Dr. Roman
Welcome back and good job, you two.
You retrieved the Grail.

  Select: When?

Da Vinci
I'll explain. The Grail is the law that decides
how magical energies in a dimension is used.
Da Vinci
Think of it as a world's rules. It normally
doesn't have a form, but Lev crystallized it into one.
Da Vinci
We can't analyze its workings, but we can seal it away.
Da Vinci
I fiddled with Mash's shield a little, and created a space
for the Grail.
Mash
My shield can do that?
Da Vinci
Yes. The best place for a relic is in a relic, I figure.

It makes sense that it is the since the Goetia Grails are what is allowing the Singularities to exist in the first place:

Investigate the "Holy Grail."
Dr. Roman
This is just my speculation, but the singularities must be
related to the Holy Grail.
Dr. Roman
The "Holy Grail" is a relic that can grant wishes.
A vessel that contains tremendous amounts of magical
energy.
Dr. Roman
Lev probably got his hands on the Grail in some form,
and misused its power.
Dr. Roman
Rather, it's impossible to travel through time
and change the past without the Grail. Seriously.
Dr. Roman
You will run into intel regarding the Grail during your
investigation of the singularity.
Dr. Roman
Even if you correct history, leaving the Grail will put us
back to square one.
Dr. Roman
You must either secure the Holy Grail, or destroy it.
Dr. Roman
Those are the two objectives of this operation.
ls everything clear so far?

Even if this is also applicable to the Fuyuki Greater Grail since it also mantains the same function of keeping a Singularity existing, seems to be a Singularity-related function rather than universal Law. How would that even work in universes where the Greater Grail isn't produced like the Tsukihime worlds?

This gets reinforced as Caster Giles has his Wish from the Holy Grail by getting rejected.

This is also about a Goetia's Grail.

Jeanne
...Then how did she acquire that massive strength?
Jeanne
That couldn't have been anything but the Holy Grail
In other words, the Dragon Witch herself—
Gilles
Exactly.
The Dragon Witch herself was my wish.
Gilles
In other words, the Holy Grail itself.
Mash
What?
Elisabeth
Huh? Huh? Huh? What do you mean?
The dragon's the Holy Grail? Then me, too?
Kiyohime
You dragon-dummy, Jeanne d'Arc didn't use the Grail
for evil.
Jeanne
You—created Jeanne d'Arc with the power of the Grail,
didn't you?
Gilles
My wish was to revive you. It was a wish from my heart,
from the bottom of my heart. Of course it was.
Gilles
...But the Grail rejected me.
For all its omnipotent power, it said it couldn't do that!
Gilles
But my wish was only for you!
So I created a new you!
Gilles
The Saint I believed in! The Saint I longed for!
I created her!

The Holy Grail is used to make a hole in a wall. What lays behind this hole is the pathway that leads to the "Root."

- Fate/Stay Night

- Fate/Apocrypha

According to the tiering system tiering system below.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Tiering_System#Tier_1:_Extradimensional

For the Holy Grail to bore a hole through a "wall" that leads a pathway to the "Root" it would need bore a hole through a wall that is like ℵ2. As it leads to the same "outside of the world" [click link for more information] that the "Root" is in according to Fate/Apocrypha. In other words, it is within reach of the Root and not some ℵ3, or stacks/layers of some sort of uncountably infinite number of X-Distance

None of this contradicts the actual process doesn't involve the Greater Holy Grail actually punching a holy by itself, but it uses the trapped servant souls and releases them so they make the hole, and then fixes and expands the hole.

This is called the Great Holy Grail.
The key that the Einzbern family prepares for each ritual is called the
Holy Grail."
"The Great Holy Grail administers the system of the Holy Grail War.
The Holy Grail collects the souls of the defeated heroic spirits and acts
as the reactor core to activate the Great Holy Grail."
"And once the Holy Grail collects enough souls to activate the Great
Holy Grail, it uses the heroic spirits' souls to open a hole.
The Great Holy Grail fixes the small hole created when the heroic spirits
return to their original place after their roles are fulfilled. This opens up
the passage to the origin that humans cannot reach."
"Of course, this is just the first step. Your wish isn't granted even if the
hole is opened. The path to the origin is too far."

More details into the souls being the key:

"Right. In the ritual of the war, Masters are mere receptors to summon the Servants. Once they've done that, they can die at any time.
The heroic spirits are the only ones needed to complete the Holy Grail.
Heroic spirits are pure souls separate from the time axis. Though they are outside of this world's logic, they can still influence it."

"That's the power they needed.
They tried to exit into the outer world using that power.
That's the real purpose of the Holy Grail in this land.
The Holy Grail Wars were waged to create a phenomenon, a miracle, that is still out of human reach."

But you need an incentive to summon the heroic spirits. They won't heed
your call unless you give them what they want.
That's why the Holy Grail was prepared to reward them."
"...Well, that's a deception from the start.
The Einzberns just wanted the souls of the heroic spirits.
They didn't care about their rank. They just wanted strong souls.
To hide that fact, they created the Holy Grail War as a cover. They
deceived the Servants and Masters and made them kill each other."

But all of this still comes back to my point: this function cannot be scaled to the Grail Wish Granting or its other functions.

Solomon says that in the original and only HGW of the Grand Order timeline the Grail was used to grant two wishes without making a path to the Root:

I knew this man was dangerous in a way unique to mages. Simply put, he lacked the sense of morality.


But, his burning passion and love for humanity were unwavering.


I signaled my consent.


This Greater Grail was not to be used to reach the Root, but to grant one man's wish.

But the reaching the Root function requires seven servant souls:

Marisbury
The Greater Grail will be filled with the souls of seven Servants, and the Magical Reactor Core used to reach the Root will activate.

This Holy Grail is real. If you insert seven Servants in it, it will reach the origin"

Lord El-Melloi II explains that the Grail can partly function with 5 souls:

＠El-Melloi
In my experience, the Greater Grail activates in a limited capacity after the defeat of the fifth Servant.

More detail in FSN of just needing six servants for the Wish Granting and partly activating with 5 servants:

The Holy Grail appeared after five Masters were defeated.

Yes, it should let you grant any wish. It contains more magical energy
than a magus could ever use within his lifetime.
That is why it is better with more sacrifices. It should be omnipotent
with six Servants as sacrifices.
Five Servants have filled the Holy Grail. Only one more is needed for
the omnipotent grail they sought."

Illya also details that the Wish Granting is irrelevant for that function and it's mostly advertisement:

The process accumulates enough magical energy to grant any wish. But that's just a secondary matter for the Einzbern family. And it was also an advertisement to call for the Masters, the sacrifices."

 

[Rez]

At which point was this stated? Cu says that he needs to be killed for the war and the singularity to end:

It's stated in the final singularity that the original winners of the Holy Grail War in the FGO timeline were Marisbury Animusphere and Caster Solomon

 

[Antvasima]

If somebody writes an easy to understand explanation of the arguments here so far, I can ask our staff members to evaluate it.

 

[Blueicemonkey]

It's stated in the final singularity that the original winners of the Holy Grail War in the FGO timeline were Marisbury Animusphere and Caster Solomon

And in Fuyuki Cu also says that the war was restarted after the humans vanished. Even if whatever the Seraphix was doing altered the timeline, Cu was still a part of the war and there were seven servants. I posted the counter arguments and quotes that confirm that there were seven servants, and Cu was part of that war both before and after the vanishing of the humans.

And I'm not even sold that Singularity F and the FGO 2004 HGW are the same, specially since FGO is confirmed to not be the main timeline in the FGO of tree of time, just pretty close to the center of the trunk.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

In the part of the Interlude of Vlad Extra in which is said that they don't know why Fuyuki continue to pop up, after say that Vlad begin to praise a lot Romani (minute 11:56), you get the irony from this, right? In the sense that in a moment is wondered why Fuyuki continue and then next the original member of the Greater Gral War that no one know to this point, because again that the whole plot twist of part 1 revealed in the final singularity, is praised a lot. I'm not the only one who think that this was intentional from the staff in the game, righ? Specially considering that the interlude of Vlad Extra was released after Camelot so the final singularity was near.

 

[Antvasima]

If somebody writes an easy to understand explanation of the arguments here so far, I can ask our staff members to evaluate it.

 

[Blueicemonkey]

If somebody writes an easy to understand explanation of the arguments here so far, I can ask our staff members to evaluate it.

Alright, my main problems (besides the other scaling stuff that it's only relevant in relationship with the Greater Grail) is this from the OP:

Being the pathway to the Root that utilizes it’s connection to the Origin to grant wishes, i

This is not correct. The process of Wish Granting is not tied to the process of reaching the root via the Holy Grail War ritual. First, there is the quote used in the OP, and repeated in the thread over and over again as a justification lacks a lot of context.

"No. First of all, there's only one administrated land in Japan that can activate a sorcery.
I know the ley line in Fuyuki is first-class, but there's not enough distortion to connect to the origin."

"Right. It's not distorted enough to reach the origin. That's why you make a hole. If the path is obstructed, you have to destroy the wall yourself, right?"

"The Holy Grail War is the process of destroying the wall.
The process accumulates enough magical energy to grant any wish. But that's just a secondary matter for the Einzbern family. And it was also an advertisement to call for the Masters, the sacrifices."

Here, Illya is explaining the process where the Greater Grail connects to the Root.

But the Greater Grail doesn't merely punch a holy into the Root for any of its effect. The process is a lot more complex.

First, it requires the souls of Heroic Spirits to be stored inside of it.

"The Great Holy Grail administers the system of the Holy Grail War. The Holy Grail collects the souls of the defeated heroic spirits and acts as the reactor core to activate the Great Holy Grail."

Then, the souls are released, and the Greater Grail then process to take advantage of the souls of the Heroic Spirits escaping and returning to their original place.

"And once the Holy Grail collects enough souls to activate the Great Holy Grail, it uses the heroic spirits' souls to open a hole.
The Great Holy Grail fixes the small hole created when the heroic spirits return to their original place after their roles are fulfilled. This opens up the passage to the origin that humans cannot reach."

How many servants are needed for this process? Seven souls. Without those, the Greater Holy Grail cannot accomplish this function:

This Holy Grail is real. If you insert seven Servants in it, it will reach the origin" - FSN: UBW Day 15

Marisbury
The Greater Grail will be filled with the souls of seven Servants, and the Magical Reactor Core used to reach the Root will activate. - FGO: Salomon Singularity

Even the, Root is not reached immediately. The distance is still too far, but the Magi has energy for their journey.

"Of course, this is just the first step. Your wish isn't granted even if the hole is opened. The path to the origin is too far."

"But

the one who obtains the Holy Grail gains access to unlimited magical energy.
The other side has large quantities of unused mana unlike anything seen on this side. For an ordinary magus, it's nothing short of a miracle."
"Of course, this is just the first step. Your wish isn't granted even if the hole is opened. The path to the origin is too far."

The importance of the souls of the Heroic Spirits is central to the ritual. The Holy Grail was is just an excuse to the get the souls of the Heroic Spirits to come down to be harvested for the ritual:

"Yes, it summons the heroic spirits as Servants.
But you need an incentive to summon the heroic spirits. They won't heed your call unless you give them what they want.
That's why the Holy Grail was prepared to reward them."

"…Well, that's a deception from the start.
The Einzberns just wanted the souls of the heroic spirits.
They didn't care about their rank. They just wanted strong souls.
To hide that fact, they created the Holy Grail War as a cover. They deceived the Servants and Masters and made them kill each other."

The souls of the Heroic Spirits are key to this ritual, since they are the ones that exist on the 'outside' that the Einzbern want to reach and transcend the Time Axis:

"Right. In the ritual of the war, Masters are mere receptors to summon the Servants. Once they've done that, they can die at any time.
The heroic spirits are the only ones needed to complete the Holy Grail.
Heroic spirits are pure souls separate from the time axis. Though they are outside of this world's logic, they can still influence it."

"That's the power they needed.
They tried to exit into the outer world using that power.
That's the real purpose of the Holy Grail in this land.
The Holy Grail Wars were waged to create a phenomenon, a miracle, that is still out of human reach."

Full scene: https://lparchive.org/Fatestay-night/Update 364/


So from all of this we get that the Greater Grail is doing quite a lot of work in order to reach the Root. It is a very specific function, very complex and not related to Wish Granting or all of the functions of the Grail, such as recreating worlds like we see the Fuyuki Grail do in the Apocrypha Event or the Saber Alter Interludes. Also, it requires to harvest the souls of the Heroic Spirits, which are the ones actually travelling to the outside, and the Greater Grail is using their escape to fix the hole that they make and make it travesable. Even then, it is just the start of the journey.

Furthermore, the distinction between the Wish Granting and making a pathway to the Root is further proven when we see that the Wish Granting can be done by the Greater Grail without activating that function, and with less than the 7 required servants harvested to make the path. Just six servants harvested and no pathway opened to the root is enough to make it already an omnipotent wish granter:

Yes, it should let you grant any wish. It contains more magical energy
than a magus could ever use within his lifetime.
That is why it is better with more sacrifices. It should be omnipotent
with six Servants as sacrifices.
Five Servants have filled the Holy Grail. Only one more is needed for
the omnipotent grail they sought." - FSN: UBW Day 15

Marisbury had the Greater Grail filled with 6 souls, but refused to sacrifice Solomon, the seventh servant, and both Solomon and Marisbury made a wish upon the grail without connecting to the Root:

Marisbury
Wonderfully done, Caster.
We have eliminated all six of the other Masters.

Marisbury
We have won the Holy Grail War. Once I use my Command Spell to make you kill yourself, the ceremony will be complete.

Marisbury
The Greater Grail will be filled with the souls of seven Servants, and the Magical Reactor Core used to reach the Root will activate.

Marisbury
And then, the Third Magic shall finally take form.

Marisbury
The Third Magic is the materialization of souls.

Marisbury
Humanity shall escape the shackle of the physical body, be released from all suffering caused by its “limitations,” and advance to a new stage.

Marisbury
You are a sacrifice for that purpose.
I am sure you understand, Caster.


I nodded in agreement. Humanity's salvation and growth were not the tasks given to me.


IfI had no reason to stop them. Just as it was during my life, I simply did what was required of me.


In the Fuyuki Holy Grail War, there would be no Servant survivors.


All Servants were to be eliminated. Even I, the victor, was fated to commit suicide, compelled by my Master's Command Spell.

Marisbury
...No, that was a joke. I'm kidding, Caster.I'm sorry. I got overexcited.

Marisbury
I have no intention of offering my meritorious partner to the Greater Grail. I won't use my Command Spells, either. They wouldn't work on you anyway. - FGO: Salomon Singularity

This Greater Grail was not to be used to reach the Root, but to grant one man's wish. - FGO: Salomon Singularity

Furthermore, both Illya and Marisbury remark that the Holy Grail War was not actually intended to use the Wish Granting function:

The process accumulates enough magical energy to grant any wish. But that's just a secondary matter for the Einzbern family. And it was also an advertisement to call for the Masters, the sacrifices." - FSN: Heaven's Feel day 15

Marisbury
To grant one's desire...

Marisbury
Yes, how ironic. The end result is turning out to be just the kind of nonsense the original ritual's creators promised. - FGO: Salomon Singularity

The Greater Grail is still impressive, as I said it can simulate entire worlds, change the world even affecting the foundations of the Human Order (by rewritting history or even undoing the separation between the Reverse Side and the Surface), but it makes no sense to escale a very specific function that requires a lengthy and complex to all of its actions or those of its terminals.

Thus this massive upgrade ends up being lubricous since its based on a quote that forgets the rest of the process and the other instances and mentions of Wish Granting preformed by the Greater Grail unrelated to it.

Sieg and Angra should have a "1-A via Reality Warping" rating added, as well as Reality Warping and acess to all of the Nasuverse's powers (although for the record utilizing this is severely out of character, so that should be added in a weakness)

 

[Antvasima]

@Dragonmasterxyz @AKM sama @SomebodyData @Celestial_Pegasus @DarkDragonMedeus @Elizhaa

Would you be willing to help evaluate Blueicemonkey's last post above and preferably this thread as a whole please?

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Let's not forget that the description itself of the skill of Shiki Saber (which is the avatar of the Root itself) call it a omnipotent wish granter and that the two have the same qualities.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

@Dragonmasterxyz @AKM sama @SomebodyData @Celestial_Pegasus @DarkDragonMedeus @Elizhaa

Would you be willing to help evaluate Blueicemonkey's last post above and preferably this thread as a whole please?

We're still debating but I have irl time constraint issues between work, moving, taking care of family, house chores, etc

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

I will say that i actually agree with Blueicemonkey's points. I had some time to think about it (i apologize for not being in the thread, had some bad case of burn out), and i've come to realize that, yeah, the path to the root function is different to the one used to grant wishes.

Even if Shiki is said to also be a omnipotent wish granting machine, that is only comparing their functions, not their potency, otherwise King Hassan would have 1-A death hax.

Then again, this is just my opinion.

I reccomend staff to see Blueicemonkey's latest post for the points in opposition, and other posts in this thread for the ones arguing in favor of it.

I'd like for this to end quickly, since i'm almost done making other revisions lol.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I agree with Blueicemonke, I have for awhile

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

I still think the Greater Grail scale to the Root, it's the thing most consistently called ommipotent in the franchise with just strict requeriments to partial activate it and even more to reach a complete activation, can do basically everything with RW, have a direct comparison with Shiki, and the point of Sieg losing control over it for going against the will of the Greater Grail is just a weakness of Sieg in the sense that if he do something againt it he would begin to lose control over it.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I still agree that the greater grail scales to the root due to simple mathematics, and how the tiering system on the wiki is setup + Various other evidence.

if other peoople scale then thats the truth. there is loads of reasons why a lot more should scale to 1-A anyways.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

The Great Holy Grail fixes the small hole created when the heroic spirits return to their original place after their roles are fulfilled. This opens up the passage to the origin that humans cannot reach.

Also, not the servants comes and go from the Throne? If this want to be used as argument then the Throne would be in the Root and that would mean various other things.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Also, not the servants comes and go from the Throne? If this want to be used as argument then the Throne would be in the Root and that would mean various other things.

It is in the Root iirc.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

It is in the Root iirc.

As far I know it was only know that it was above the MoonCell, would be good to also bring some quote saying is in the Root just to confirm.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

As far I know it was only know that it was above the MoonCell, would be good to also bring some quote saying is in the Root just to confirm.

Mooncell can reach into the throne of Heroes but yeah its above it.

Where is this statement that the Throne of Heroes is within the the root?

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

The Throne is not in the Root, that's a myth that i'm tired of seeing. All we know about it is that it's a higher dimensional place beyond time. If the Throne is in the Root then the Outer Gods would be Root level, which doesn't really make sense as far as we know.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

I still agree that the greater grail scales to the root due to simple mathematics, and how the tiering system on the wiki is setup + Various other evidence.

if other peoople scale then thats the truth. there is loads of reasons why a lot more should scale to 1-A anyways.

Simple mathematics means any amount of mana would be 1-A AP because the wishes are done with a great amount of it. You clearly can't count on linearity in fiction.

"How the tiering system is setup" ??? What does this even mean.

"Various other evidence" care to present?

Nothing else should scale to the Root. The so called evidence you give would end with every 2-A becoming 1-A, and it's so faulty and full of holes that i don't even want to call it evidence. If you really want everything to scale to 1-A then you should make a thread for it already, so we can stop this "teasing" you keep doing.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Simple mathematics means any amount of mana would be 1-A AP because the wishes are done with a great amount of it. You clearly can't count on linearity in fiction.

"How the tiering system is setup" ??? What does this even mean.

"Various other evidence" care to present?

Nothing else should scale to the Root. The so called evidence you give would end with every 2-A becoming 1-A, and it's so faulty and full of holes that i don't even want to call it evidence. If you really want everything to scale to 1-A then you should make a thread for it already, so we can stop this "teasing" you keep doing.

it "bust" a wall that connects it to the root.

if root is 1-A then this wall must be 1-A as well thats what i mean with "mathmatics and the tiering system*

i already presented the other evidence here on this thread a while ago

i will be making a thread on that in the future. Currently. I am playing a waiting game and working on a google doc.

 

[PsychoWarper]

So Shiki, Roa and Dantes keep their 1-A stuff but the Greater Grail loses it and gets downgraded to… do we have any idea for the tier of the Greater Grail now or will it just be like Unknown?

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

The Grail didn't bust any wall though, that's the souls of the heroic spirits returning to the Root, just like the souls of everyone else does. It's taking advantage of a natural phenomena of the world, when has the wish granting ever broken down that wall in the first place?

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

So Shiki, Roa and Dantes keep their 1-A stuff but the Greater Grail loses it and gets downgraded to… do we have any idea for the tier of the Greater Grail now or will it just be like Unknown?

Unknown, for now.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

The Grail didn't bust any wall though, that's the souls of the heroic spirits returning to the Root, just like the souls of everyone else does. It's taking advantage of a natural phenomena of the world, when has the wish granting ever broken down that wall in the first place?

"No. First of all, there's only one administrated land in Japan that can activate a sorcery.

I know the ley line in Fuyuki is first-class, but there's not enough distortion to connect to the origin."

"Right. It's not distorted enough to reach the origin. That's why you make a hole. If the path is obstructed, you have to destroy the wall yourself, right?"

"The Holy Grail War is the process of destroying the wall.
The process accumulates enough magical energy to grant any wish. But that's just a secondary matter for the Einzbern family. And it was also an advertisement to call for the Masters, the sacrifices."

-Fate/Stay Night

"The Greater Grail spent sixty years absorbing prana and used it to cut open a path that would lead to true Magic – opening a hole that would lead outside the world."


"In any case, the granting of wishes was merely a side effect of the Holy Grail. Its true nature was a tool to bore a hole through the world, fueled by the sacrifice of Heroic Spirits of the past. And there was only one task left to perform."

- Fate/Apocrypha