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Alright I guess.
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Nasuverse Revisions Part 2: Root Scaling
- Thread starter CrimsonStarFallen
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- #282
Nice job ignoring how that still doesn't say the Wish Granting is the one that breaks down that wall. In fact, in those same quotes, it straight up says that it does that with the prana absorbed by it and the souls of the heroic spirits.
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That doesn't change the mathematics and tiering system here. Or should we downgrade the Root?
Also, I did post before on this thread the the souls of 7 heroic spirits from the main classes are needed for its function.
Edit: and its stated that the Grail bores a hole, and tears down a wall which opens a path to the root. To open a path to the root those walls must be 1-A
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But they come from the Throne and return to the Throne, they don't need in any sense go to the Root, and if the argument is something like: 'they die, return to the Root, and then go to the Throne' then they would gain soul resistance of 1-A because of survive the Root. So have to be one of the two, the Throne is in the Root or the Throne isn't in the Root and the Greater Grail had to open a hole to the Root.
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From Fate/complete material III
Birth of Heroic Spirits
It's been explained that Heroic Spirits are beings that heroes whom belief has been gathered upon become after death, but heroes of myths and legends can be born by the gathering of belief even if they didn't exist. Also, there are those who those who make a contract of some sort with the world when they were alive and as compensation become Heroic Spirits after death. In the Fifth War, Hasan Sabaha was a hero that actually existed, and Herakles and Medusa are ones of legends. Also, Emiya and Artoria are beings that became (or will become) Heroic Spirits after their contract with the world. Those who have become Heroic Sｐirits are freed from the constraints of time and are moved to the Throne of Heroes, existing to the outside of the World.
•Heroic Spirit summoning
Heroic Spirits are beings cut off from the time axis and can be summoned in any era, regardless of past and future. However, the only one that can summon the main body of the Heroic Spirits is the "world", and alas, humans can't summon the main body and can only summon their emanations, the Servants. Speaking of which, the information (souls) making up the Servants return to the main body at the same time as the death of the Servant, and the main body can know, as records, about the actions of the Servants as if reading a book.
Idk how reliable this is, but the outside of the World seems to refers to the Root.
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Fate/Apoc and Zero correlate "outside of this world" with the root.
though i do think that first one should be fact checked.
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- Thread starter
- #287
Outside of the World is used for the Root, but it doesn't mean every instance of "Outside of the World" is the Root, just like how not every instance of Root means The Swirl of the Root. We don't even know how the two of them correlate in any logical sense anyway.
Cool, that doesn't answer my question.
Also, i kinda have a problem with the wall between the Root and the Grail being 1-A in the first place. For one, it being the wall between the World and the Root doesn't prove anything unless the wall is part of the Root itself. Why should we assume that it's 1-A without any statements towards it's durability? Does it even have durability? What even is it?
We don't know, because every 1-A feat given to the Root is given to the Root itself, not some vague "wall" that exists within the Grail.
I mean, even if they don't return to the Root, it's still a vague progress that has no indication of scaling to wish granting, unless you want literally every Servant and Mage in Nasu to be 1-A because "their soul scales to it".
You don't even know what you are talking about. How does mathematics or the tiering system even matter here? What does the Root being 1-A matter?
Cool, that doesn't answer my question.
Also, i kinda have a problem with the wall between the Root and the Grail being 1-A in the first place. For one, it being the wall between the World and the Root doesn't prove anything unless the wall is part of the Root itself. Why should we assume that it's 1-A without any statements towards it's durability? Does it even have durability? What even is it?
We don't know, because every 1-A feat given to the Root is given to the Root itself, not some vague "wall" that exists within the Grail.
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Tiering System
The following is a comprehensive overview of the hierarchical system the VS Battles Wiki utilizes to properly categorize and index fictional characters, entities, and objects based on the scale of their feats and the varying scopes that they can affect or create/destroy. Though Destructive...
vsbattles.fandom.com
in conclusion; for it to come even remotely close to boring a hole through this wall it must be 1-A
Also, the encloypedia source we love to use also says the holy grail bores a hole.
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This is interesting and yes, from what I remeber it's also called the outside of the World.
But what reason whe have to think that this use of Outside of the World isn't talking about the Root? I mean, if the Greater Grail only take advantage of the process of Servants returning to their place to make the hole to the Root, and their place is the Throne, then logically the Throne have to be in the Root, that or for some reason the souls go first to the Root and after to the Throne in which case their souls have to scale to it, one of the two is what the gathered info seem to suggest.
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- #290
That's not how evidence works. You can't just say "why wouldn't this term that could be used for a number of things not be used for this one specific thing?"
For one, it was my mistake, it's never said they use the process of them returning, it just say they use their souls and prana it collected. Probably use the magical energy of the souls.
It also wouldn't make sense. The Land of Shadows from Scáthach is also said to be from Outside of the World, yet AAS still destroyed it. And if the Throne was in the Root, then why does Paracelsus still look for a way to reach the Root, when he supposedly has already done that?
@TheUnshakableOne
You have no idea of what you are talking about. What does literally any of that matter for the wall between the Root and the Grail? That's a blatant non-sequitur, i don't even know how to respond.
Like, cool, the Root qualifies for 1-A. None of that applies to the wall itself.
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I don't think you understand here.
and idk how to explain this more simply
the difference between a Tier 9 to a High 1-B is "many uncountable infinities" that same difference is applied to Low 1-A and 1-A except its even larger
therefore for the Greater grail to make a "hole" that does in fact lead to the Root. that wall has to be 1-A due to that large of a difference between each tier. the Root should be completely inaccessible to all lower levels the absolute pinnacle of all transcendence in the verse. So for something to come close to that level must be 1-A as well other wise its completely inaccessible
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- #292
Nvm, it does use their return. Which, to me, just gives enough evidence that the wall is just like, Low 1-C, since it can crack by forcing it with Low 1-C force.
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- #293
Dude, it makes a hole "to" the Root, not "through". The wall could he anywhere in the scale, because we don't know where it's even located.
Hell, it's probably not even close to the Root, seeing as the journey between the wall and the Root is said to be gigantic.
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Dude...
it makes a Hole to the Root as i been saying not through. you have the wrong assumption im making here.
to say its not even close to the root goes aganist context provided
-Fate/Apocrypha
It's opening a hole to the root.
if High 1-B = an infinite layered hierarchy
and Low 1-A = an uncountable number of infinite layered hierarchies being stacked
Then 1-A = is inacessible and above any expansion of a Infinite Layered hierarchy, in a way that doesnt matter how much layers exist, it never will reach you
Using what is said above. That wall must be 1-A as well or else it will make no sense with vswiki tiering sytem.
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- #295
No, it doesn't need to be 1-A, that's a jump you are making with very specific interpretations.
Like, cool, it makes a hole through a wall that leads to the Root. Where is that wall? How does it relate to the Root? Is it even related to the Root? We don't know.
Illya says that the Grail takes advantage of the distortions caused by the leylines around Fuyuki to break down the wall between the inside and the outside of the world. But do we even know where, in relation to the Root, that wall even is?
No, we don't. In fact, it would probably be far lower, seeing as the heroic spirits returning to the Throne also helps break down that wall, and as established, the Throne is Low 1-C.
In the end, we don't know anything about the wall, and assuming these things is just making more problems as we go. (Like how this would mean that the higher dimensions in Nasu would be 1-A, which doesn't even make sense because they are what prove it's 1-A)
Like, cool, it makes a hole through a wall that leads to the Root. Where is that wall? How does it relate to the Root? Is it even related to the Root? We don't know.
Illya says that the Grail takes advantage of the distortions caused by the leylines around Fuyuki to break down the wall between the inside and the outside of the world. But do we even know where, in relation to the Root, that wall even is?
No, we don't. In fact, it would probably be far lower, seeing as the heroic spirits returning to the Throne also helps break down that wall, and as established, the Throne is Low 1-C.
In the end, we don't know anything about the wall, and assuming these things is just making more problems as we go. (Like how this would mean that the higher dimensions in Nasu would be 1-A, which doesn't even make sense because they are what prove it's 1-A)
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that would be a violation of the wiki's tiering system.
unimportant/irrelevant information; context says that it opens a hole to a 1-A structure/being. you cannot twist that in any way. its explicitly stated to open a hole to the root.
im going to have to ask for very specific burden of proof. a very explicit statement here.
we have all the information we need about this wall to prove its a 1-A structure.
i'll have to continue this at some point later. i have irl stuff to take care of.
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- #297
Literally wouldn't, as has been discussed.
Except it's incredibly important information, it's the difference between affecting a 1-A structure or affecting a structure that leads to a 1-A place, which you still haven't proved.
"And once the Holy Grail collects enough souls to activate the Great Holy Grail, it uses the heroic spirits' souls to open a hole.
The Great Holy Grail fixes the small hole created when the heroic spirits return to their original place after their roles are fulfilled. This opens up the passage to the origin that humans cannot reach."
They return to the Throne, which is a higher dimension beyond time. Feat wise, this shows that the wall isn't 1-A, unless you want to argue every higher dimension beyond time is 1-A.
Let me ask you this, if a Low 2-C structure was within a Low 1-C space, and you opened a portal from the structure to that space, would it be Low 1-C AP? Because by this logic, it would.
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If we ask for the opinions of others who know about tier 1 stuff regarding the wall thing to see their opinion? The only one I know have been talking here and know well about tier 1 stuff (if I'm correct) is @QuasiYuri, so what do you think?
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- #299
Another opinion would be cool yes.
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Bumping!
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Bumping!
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Isn't still to soon to begin to bump?
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Maybe. Maybe not. Time will tell.
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@TheUnshakableOne
For whenever you get back: i was getting pretty tilted about this, and the back and forth wasn't helping... well, anything. It just clutters the thread. So, i'm gonna stop here and let other people give their takes, and give a summary if asked.
For whenever you get back: i was getting pretty tilted about this, and the back and forth wasn't helping... well, anything. It just clutters the thread. So, i'm gonna stop here and let other people give their takes, and give a summary if asked.
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I don't know if this could work as a very short and basic summary, but well:
TheUnshakableOne say that the Greater Grail have to be 1-A for open a hole in the wall of the Root.
My thoughts in the end concluded that the Greater Grail take advantage of the return of the servants souls to the Throne to reach the Root, which mean added with another quote from QuasiYuri that the Throne have to be in the Root.
And CrimsonStarFallen say that that would only mean that the wall is Low 1-C.
Something like this I think? It's better if the previous arguments are readed because this is a really short and too basic version.
TheUnshakableOne say that the Greater Grail have to be 1-A for open a hole in the wall of the Root.
My thoughts in the end concluded that the Greater Grail take advantage of the return of the servants souls to the Throne to reach the Root, which mean added with another quote from QuasiYuri that the Throne have to be in the Root.
And CrimsonStarFallen say that that would only mean that the wall is Low 1-C.
Something like this I think? It's better if the previous arguments are readed because this is a really short and too basic version.
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@Dragonmasterxyz @AKM sama @SomebodyData @Celestial_Pegasus @DarkDragonMedeus @Elizhaa
I think that Blueicemonkey and others have made very valid points regarding why the holes to the Root shoud not scale several characters to a 1-A power level. I would still greatly appreciate your input here.
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@CrimsonStarFallen @Blueicemonkey
Can you write summaries of your arguments for our staff to evaluate please?
Can you write summaries of your arguments for our staff to evaluate please?
Ovy7
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I don't have much knowledge on Fate/Nasuverse, but after reading through the thread I think Blueicemonkey makes the most sense, and I trust Crimson's judgments with this.
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I can do it, i gave them 1-A and i will take it away.
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- #312
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- #314
And it has been done.
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Was it removed or changed to unknown?
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So in the end isn't gonna be explored that the Greater Grail use the return of servants to the Throne to reach the Root? I honestly feel that's something worth to talk but well.
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Changed to Unknown.
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Blueicemonkey does seem to make sense.
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We should be done.
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