Nothingness has also been used to describe things akin to the flow state,
which even Shirou has achieved in his Archery, yet I'm not going to sit here and equivocate the uses to upgrade Shirou to 1-A.
So, let me get this straight:
Shirou used nothingness to describe the flow of state in archery.
Roa uses nothingness, alongside darkness and death, on top of the imagery of him "journeying", to describe his experience after his bodily death.
Now I don't know how you see it. But I think that anyone with a IQ above 5 can infer that Roa's nothigness and darkness is used in the context of Akasha, since he is literally referring to him dying and then coming back again. Words are used differently depending on the context. And here we find nothingness and darkness (Terms used to describe Akasha) all together describing what happens to someone's soul after bodily death. So it is obvious beyond any reasonable doubts to take it for granted that they are describing Akasha. What the heck would archery/martial arts crap have anything to do with Roa? This is such an incredibly desperate deflection it's sad.
As we'll see later in this reply, all your arguments have been poorly stringed together statements that can barely account for supplementary evidence, much less primary evidence, with the nonexistence of the latter being what prompted this thread to be made.
Of course they are going to appear like that if you handwave their meaning to fit with your narrative about Roa somehow not cycling through Akasha despite even people in coma that didn't even die being able to do that.
The hilarious thing about all of this is that there is nothing to "prove" in the first place, because it's a fact that a soul goes straight to Akasha upon death normally. Why does the OP want evidence for something that is already universally established in the verse and is taken for granted?
The only "evidence" for Roa being a tiny special snowflake ever brought up in the entire thread is Ciel saying that Roa's soul is transmitted, that it is processed instead of outright dispersing and immediately goes upon the next host after his body's death....Which does not preclude his soul from cycling in and out of Akasha when that happens.
Like Roa dies? His soul instantly access Akasha due to not having a body to anchor it to the material world anymore, however instead of dispersing into nothingness and being absorbed by Akasha entirely, he is transmitted into his next host cycling out of Akasha. In the same exact way the Shikis accessed Akasha after their incidents and then came back anyway after they recovered. There is literally nothing so complicated about this. This thread is complaining over a whole bunch of nothing really.
The difference in Roa is that
where the soul dies along with the body normally, he can turn it into something that can be transmitted, and then transmits it from one body to the next. There's no notion of him resisting the Outerversal evaporation of the Root first.
This is literally what I have been saying this whole time. His soul does not evaporate and "dies" alongside the body, it is cycled through Akasha and transmitted into the next host. The soul requires a body to be anchored to the material world, so when it dies, it instantly goes to Akasha normally to be absorbed back into it. However, Roa turned his soul into something that can be transmitted. Meaning his soul cycles out of Akasha and goes to the next host upon death instead of being dispersed and absorbed. He does not magically travels the Earth, because souls cannot be anchored in the material world without a body. This is why souls without a body access Akasha rather than randomly propagating in the air, as said by Ciel in the very quote you posted. Again, it is no different from the example of the Shikis accident. There is no mention of him avoiding the Root's passive evaporation because it's self evident that he did, by virtue of his soul not dispersing in the first place. There is a reason the materialisation of the soul is a True Magic. It's not something normally possible. When someone dies, his soul goes to Akasha because it needs a body to be anchored to the material world, and is then absorbed back into the Root. Roa managed to prevent this dispersion and transfer his soul into his hosts, but he still needs to cycle in and out of Akasha for that, because he access it as soon as his body dies.
if having a pathway to the Root allows you to achieve True Magic and Roa can supposedly create a so-called pathway to the Root on demand, do you not see how this is a problem?
He can have a pathway to the Root that does not grant him True Magic. Or he could lack the necessary knowledge, or even require an innate trait to wield it just like with Death Perception ironically. There is no problem here.
You can't just use a scan of Roa explaining what death is for your argument and then agree that he doesn't understand death immediately after lol. A vague reference to "darkness" doesn't unequivocally prove your point
Roa not having the innate capacity to fully comprehend and wield death like a MEODP user =/= Roa not knowing what Death is in the first place, which is something even random normal humans would know. You have absolutely no counter to Roa still cycling through Akasha and still not being able to grasp its true meaning. Aoko could not tell the true nature of the Fifth despite her using it to access Akasha. If I ask someone to travel into an alien reality and he is unable to understand what he saw due to lacking the necessary capacity/knowledge, that does not change the fact that he still traveled to said reality. This case is even more specific as Roa needs to have an Origin that innately grants him affinity for Death Perception.
and unequivocalness is what we need for something that can easily introduce problems like scaling random unicorn horns to the apex of the verse.
There is no problem with a conceptual weapon that was made from the horn of a creature that consumed souls being able to affect souls indeed and disperse them into nothingness. There is no problem with Roa's soul being able to circumvent the Root's passive absorption either. Many characters already scale to the Root to different extents. Crimson Moon could even affect the very cycle of death and rebirth of Akasha according to Wallachia. There is nothing so special or terrific about it. The reason Void's connection is on an entirely different level and actually qualifies as the "apex" of the verse, is because she has access to most of Akasha and its functions, rather than simply individual aspects like the other characters.
Spamming things that can be interpreted as supporting evidence in no way accounts for the severe lack of primary evidence.
Secondary evidence can be used in lack of "primary" evidence. Actually, if that's the only type of evidence that we have, then it may well be primary to begin with. At least it is better than no evidence at all. Because I'd like to remind you that the burden is actually on the OP to prove that Roa is the only person in the entire franchise whose soul magically skips the Root upon death without any special circumstances. In fact, how is that any better actually? Because if Roa can just skip the Root then it means that he can outright negate it entirely and prevent it from taking his soul at all. That's even worse lol.
No we don't, prove that.
KnK and Tsukihime were considered to be a part of the same timeline until like 2015, and never once has "well MEoDP is inherent to only one person" been used as a justification against it.
Ah here it is. I was expecting you to pick unnecessary fights out of thin air on something I wrote in a half hurry. With "exclusive to him" I was more referring to individuals like him who innately have the ability to see Death. This includes Ryougi as well. But she has affinity towards death for different reasons, and her capacity to see the Death is only one of her body's many powers, as her Origin is Emptiness and therefore has access to most of Akasha and its powers. We know that Shiki's MEODP is an innate ability, and that his near death experience was merely its trigger. If Roa does not have such innate affinity towards Death, then he will never be able to grasp its true essence and wield Death Perception, no matter how many times he cycles through Akasha. That is all I said. Again, Roa not fully grasping Death and not having the innate, exclusive (Exclusive because it is tied to one's Origin) ability to perceive and actualize it, does not preclude him from cycling in and out the Root.
So are we going to be scaling Kouma's Last Arc to
Enma because it's called
"Enma's Punishment"???
No? It would simply means that it is related to Enma in some way, shape or form. And Kishima's Last Arc is a conventional raw power attack with no additional context or evidence that it is anything further than that. Far different from Roa, who opens a portal towards something and is related to his reincarnation method as well as Akasha. Had he simply shooted out big lightning beams like his RM is supposed to do, I would have never suggested this even in spite of the move's title. But him opening a hole, and us knowing that is reincarnation method is related to Akasha and allows him to cycle in and out of it does give the idea of it being a portal to Akasha very strong credence.
Also, funny, because Enma is the King of the Underworld. And Kishima was actually noted in Red Demon God to be a master of Death that innately wielded it, making him far superior to someone like Kiri Nanaya, who only chased after Death. It then added that only someone that was born broken and also has Death in him would be able to match him, which is a clear reference to Shiki. So even in his case there are some dots to connect.
Which you have yet to justify as involving the Root beyond vague references and "muh Serpent of Akasha"
Ah, my mistake. A dude known as the serpent of Akasha, who has learned to prevent his soul from being dispersed and absorbed by it, has clearly absolutely nothing to do with it.
...Imagine asking to justify the existence of a door that you can clearly see is right in front of you.
It can also like, not. Each time it has it's been in context that you've yet to solidly justify.
I already did, my friend. The problem is that you decided to dismiss it as "flowery language", and what can I do about that?
Does this mean we should conclude that UBW's only effect is enhancing his Projection magecraft? Or are we to refer to other places that talk about his Reality Marble? Clearly it's the latter, and this can be dismissed as an Argument from Silence.
I honestly have no idea what the hell you are even replying to at this point. Because right now you went full circle and ultimately ended up agreeing with me...
The main effect of Overload is to enhance Lightning Magecraft, which ties into its very name. You want to claim that it also has the function of allowing Roa to open the portal? That's fine by me and I'm actually inclined to agree with that. But what does that change exactly? You are aware that Overload was brought up to dismiss the idea of Roa opening a portal during his Last Arc, right? But unfortunately Roa creating Overload does not mean he cannot also open the portal. It could just as easily mean it is part of the process. It does not disprove anything lol.
Argument from silence? That's rich coming from someone who takes no direct mention of Akasha as it meaning that Roa's title and reincarnation method must necessarily have nothing to do with it. I'm not interested in this hypocritical double standards. Either prove, in no uncertain way, that absolutely nothing Roa does has absolutely nothing to do with Akasha, and that the basic universal rule of souls accessing Akasha upon death somehow does not apply to him, or just concede and retain your dignity.
We get a description of what "Serpent of Akasha" means twice (
Arcueid's route and
MBAC's PS2 manual), and neither time are we told what the "Akasha" part actually means. Once again, a case of something that could be supporting evidence, but with no primary evidence in sight.
This is where it can be actually said "Argument from Silence". Again, imagine asking how is the guy that prevents his soul from being absorbed into Akasha and transmits it to another individual related to Akasha. If Roa can prevent his own soul (Which automatically accesses Akasha upon the physical demise, or even mere near death incidents) from dispersing into the Root, then there is obviously no need to mention him circumventing the Root's absorption, as that would be self evident, but for some reason it is oblivious to you.
If he's using his RM to create a portal, then this directly goes against your claim of it only having to do with his lightning spells.
......And also against your claim about the Last Arc being related to the RM, as if that disproved the notion of Roa opening a portal to Akasha. All that it means is that the RM also allows Roa to open the portal, beyond its main effect of empowering his lightning magecraft.
A part of his Reality Marble or some other attack related to it maybe, as MB Archives implies by saying he creates his Reality Marble with absolutely no reference to any pathway to the Root. (inb4 a falsely applied 'argument from silence' gets thrown back at me)
Exactly. So, given that the main, primary purpose the RM was created for was empowering Roa's lightning magecraft, and the title suggest that this specific move is more related to his reincarnation method, which also has a term used to describe Akasha in certain contexts (With us knowing for a fact that Roa's reincarnation method is preventing himself from being absorbed by Akasha), it's reasonable to assume this other unknown attack involves opening a portal for Akasha. When all evidence leads to something, even if it isn't explicitly stated, it's only logical to make a deduction on it. Whining about "Argument from silence" does nothing to help your position, especially when you have been using arguments from silence yourself this whole thread.
It could in some way be related to the magecraft he used to preserve and transfer aspects of his soul, maybe. Or it could be that the name doesn't even mean much as Kouma's Last Arc show
And that
could is decided by the context around the Last Arc and the characters. And I already went over why Kishima's Last Arc cannot be compared to that of Roa. And the title is still actually very in line with what we know of him and his family's martial arts.
Ciel's Another Arc Drive being called
"Redemption from Original Sin" despite the Seventh Holy Scripture having literally nothing to do with the doctrine.
Wow! So the conceptual, holy weapon owned and blessed by the Burial Agency of the Church created specifically to kill supernatural entities in the name of God and that uses literal holy scripture pages as ammunition is not related to the doctrine? I'm shocked.
Heck, the title could even be interpreted as a reference to Roa's death in the VN, with Ciel finding redemption from her sin of killing her whole town by vanquishing him. There can be multiple interpretations, and it does not describe the attack itself. Roa's title on the other hand, can have only one interpretation that falls in line with everything that we know about him, and would explain why Roa does not use Overload for what it was mainly created for, but for something else.
Your "explanation" isn't supported by anything beyond vague connections in the name of the move. It's not even an explanation at all, it's
headcanon.
I'm glad you feel that way.
Thus far you've failed to show any actual evidence of Roa's soul passing through the Root and having Outerversal durability because of it, instead appealing to vague connections, fallacious reasoning, and straight-up headcanon.
I provided an extremely clear statement that you dismissed as "flowery language" for reasons only known for yourself, and then, not content with that, you decided to take it even further and equated something that's used blatantly differently in their respective contexts (Nothingness). I provided basic lore, which you have twisted around with your beloved Argument from Silence (Which you ironically accuse me of). I pointed out how Roa has multiple details and things that are connected to Akasha. And you handwaved them as "vague", without even providing on your own a single shred of evidence so far that Roa can magically skip the Root. Yet you have the audacity to call what I provided "headcanon". When the entirety of this site is filled with headcanon like crosscaling Grand Order to the original CCC and Extra, Authorities working like DB power levels, Ryougi Shiki becoming a pacifist after KnK, Archetype Earth not being on Void's level despite the entire MB route heavily implying it, among other inane things. I should have known better than bothering with this again. I should have just followed my initial intention of dropping by with one post.
Further, Roa's soul being Outerversal leads to insane absurdities like the Seventh Holy Scripture, something created from a random unicorn horn, being stronger than the literal Root of all of creation which can't even be properly described in any way shape or form.
Quit the strawman, please. I never claimed this, and already clarified that a soul resisting Akasha's passive absorption does not mean it is stronger than Akasha itself entirely. And that there are other characters that go even beyond that and can manipulate aspects of Akasha. With Void Shiki having the least restrictions among all in terms of using it. We already know through MEODP that Akasha can obliterate Roa's soul if it actively enacts his death anyway. But of course, all of this flew over your head in favor of a very pitiful attempt at misinterpreting my argument and twist it just to make it look bad. Because you have nothing else to stand on.
Anyway, with this I'm out. I don't even care about any kind of downgrade or upgrade that comes out of this, as this site's reasoning is fundamentally flawed, but I care about the source material being properly represented. Though it's obvious that misinterpreting the lore is bound to stay the norm. So whatever.
