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Nasuverse Discussion Board (New Forum)

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cyberpunk Jeanne alter

warning. The guys Twitter contains nsfw stuff and there’s also a topless version of this just warning you guys.

this is the sfw version that I got from r/grandorder on Reddit so it should be fine.
 
KARA NO KYOUKAI Epilogue, the light novel original, properly translated, if any of you guys had the misfortune of only having acess to cokesato translation.

Kokutou and Void conversation has some worldbuilding/lore hints and is a very nice "philosophical" chapter.

And bringing back a discussion in this topic some days ago, this again confirms that the Origin is a thing of the Body and that it has nothing to do with Soul or anything like that.
 
Question guys does Jason along with angra mainyu and other weak servants

do they have Dan Hibiki/hercule satan syndrome?

aka they are weak but only in comparison to other servants

if they existed in real life. They would be pretty much unstoppable.

Am I correct?
 
Pokemonfan807 said:
Question guys does Jason along with angra mainyu and other weak servants

do they have Dan Hibiki/hercule satan syndrome?

aka they are weak but only in comparison to other servants

if they existed in real life. They would be pretty much unstoppable.

Am I correct?
Click to expand...
Pretty much, even the weakest Servants are supposed to be 10 times stronger than a human.
 
Pokemonfan807 said:
Question guys does Jason along with angra mainyu and other weak servants

do they have Dan Hibiki/hercule satan syndrome?

aka they are weak but only in comparison to other servants

if they existed in real life. They would be pretty much unstoppable.

Am I correct?
Click to expand...

I don't remember if it's ALL HS or one of the ways to become a HS, but there was a affirmation about how one has to do something no one else could do with training alone, for example. Theres one quote about how nowadays "saving the Earth" has become something that wouldn't gain you a spot on the Throne because nuclear weapons are so common it's a every day thing.
Q: If there are Heroic Spirits like Archer, who was summoned independent of time axis, is it possible for warriors from the future, who are loaded with modern weapons, to be summoned as Servants?

A: Although modern weapons are powerful, it is difficult for the users of modern weapons to be classified as Heroic Spirits. The advantage of modern weapons is "anyone can use them as long as they were trained", thus it is difficult for the user to become a Heroic Spirit, whose definition is "the one and only". The users of modern weapons are faceless heroes. If there are indeed heroes who are loaded with modern weapons, the users will not become Heroic Spirits, as they are merely "experts anyone can achieve through sufficient training". The actual Heroic Spirits being worshiped will be the "greatest weapon of that era". However, for the weapon to become a Heroic Spirit in this case, it must harbour a soul.
Click to expand...
I mean, if you read the original myth, you will know Jason is a ******* beast by the fact he formed the Argonauts alone. If the Round Table and the gathring of heroes at it was a feat that could be the foundation of Chaldeas summon system, the Argonauts is what, Round Table but 3x?

And Angra - Angra has said he is the third best "Human Killer" - you can understand the relevance of this when the only ones above him are Primate and ORT. Angra is weak as a servant, in a way, because he's not a story made to oppose heroes, but to oppose Humans and Humanity.
 
Kinda?
Because the real world wouldn't have Ether for him to even form. But at the same time, if Ether is a thing, it could become something to oppose said Servant.
 
As Lehen said, Jason is the monster who formed the argonauts, probably the strongest group of heroes. Even by himself, he is still more than capable of fighting other servants. He is no Heracles, but even for a greek, he is in no way weak

Angra is the self proclaimed weakest servant, but even then, he could hold his own against artoria for a while. His ability to kill humans is 100% a conceptual one tho, and he can probably kill any human on earth based on the statement in HA that he can rival ORT and primate murder in the quality of the humans he kills.

The actual weakest servants like Andersen are still superhuman
 
TypeOU said:
As Lehen said, Jason is the monster who formed the argonauts, probably the strongest group of heroes. Even by himself, he is still more than capable of fighting other servants. He is no Heracles, but even for a greek, he is in no way weak

Angra is the self proclaimed weakest servant, but even then, he could hold his own against artoria for a while. His ability to kill humans is 100% a conceptual one tho, and he can probably kill any human on earth based on the statement in HA that he can rival ORT and primate murder in the quality of the humans he kills.

The actual weakest servants like Andersen are still superhuman
Click to expand...

So Andersen, Mata Hari, Mozart, and Shakespeare could destroy the entire real world since they are island level and no one in the real world has the capacity to hurt them
 
Medea, Strength E and a Caster, so a class that is the opposite of physical combat, has some feats like stepping ontoan amethyst owl familiar and shattering it completely. Though amethyst is no diamond, it still is pretty damn hard to step onto a solid piece and do any damage.
 
Pokemonfan807 said:
If you destroy someone’s magical circuits does that kill them?
Click to expand...
No. There's at least two cases in canon of such:
1) Kayneth El-Melloi Archibald, in Fate/Zero, by the Origin Bullet of Kiritsugu, with the caveat this also really ****** up his nervous system, but that's more a thing of the Origin Bullet than about the destruction of his Circuit itself and how it interacts with active Circuits, that "take up the place of the nerves", as per Case Files's Luvia description of Circuit activation, and the body itself.
2) In Case Files, IIRC most recent volume, Akane Yakou. She basically "overused" her circuits and "burned them up" to the point she can no longer use them anymore - she literally went from Magus to normal human.

There's also Kirschtaria's case. His circuit wasn't destroy, but was permanently damaged. He doesn't appear to suffer from any type of sequelae from this as far as normal human functionality other than losing the circuits themselves.

So, the destruction of the Circuits themselves doesn't appear to cause any damage or consequence to the physical body, but the specific method you do it may damage the body, maybe causing death.
 
LehenDuo said:
No. There's at least two cases in canon of such:
1) Kayneth El-Melloi Archibald, in Fate/Zero, by the Origin Bullet of Kiritsugu, with the caveat this also really ****** up his nervous system, but that's more a thing of the Origin Bullet than about the destruction of his Circuit itself.
2) In Case Files, IIRC most recent volume, Akane Yakou. She basically "overused" her circuits and "burned them up" to the point she can no longer use them anymore - she literally went from Magus to normal human.

There's also Kirschtaria's case. His circuit wasn't destroy, but was permanently damaged. He doesn't appear to suffer from any type of sequelae from this as far as normal human functionality other than losing the circuits themselves.
Click to expand...

i thought origin bullets can kill with their effects? (i mean a bullet can obviously kill you but can the origin bullets effects on the circuits and stuff kill too?)
 
Pokemonfan807 said:
i thought origin bullets can kill with their effects? (i mean a bullet can obviously kill you but can the origin bullets effects on the circuits and stuff kill too?)
Click to expand...
Yes. Origin Bullet is a Conceptual Weapon, but it still is a bullet being shot at you. The interaction here is because of the Origin Bullet ability and the way it works If Kayneth was shot while his Circuit was deactivated, it would only affect the things in the path of the bullet itself - note that the Origin Bullet not only does Severing, but it also does Binding, so through the path it went through, everything would be "fixed", but in a way that it becomes essentially non-functional/corrupted. They explain this through comparison - Imagine cutting a line, and then "fixing" it with a knot. The knot there, although does seem to fix the line, still essentially changes it and "corrupts" the nature of said line.

Now - his Magic Circuits where activated. And said circuits are brought to physicality through the nerves/in the place of the nerves. (This is something not really completely explained in fine details, but basically circuits and nerves share the same "space" when circuits are activated and brought "up" to reality.) This meant his entire circuit, that exists throughout the body and was linked/connected/in-place of the nerves and etc was afflicted with Severing and Binding. This ****** him up.

Note that it wasn't the destruction of the Circuits themselves that did it. It was the nature of the concept of the Origin Bullet and how it interacted with the Circuits active.
 
LehenDuo said:
Yes. Origin Bullet is a Conceptual Weapon, but it still is a bullet being shot at you. The interaction here is because of the Origin Bullet ability and the way it works If Kayneth was shot while his Circuit was deactivated, it would only affect the things in the path of the bullet itself - note that the Origin Bullet not only does Severing, but it also does Binding, so through the path it went through, everything would be "fixed", but in a way that it becomes essentially non-functional/corrupted. They explain this through comparison - Imagine cutting a line, and then "fixing" it with a knot. The knot there, although does seem to fix the line, still essentially changes it and "corrupts" the nature of said line.

Now - his Magic Circuits where activated. And said circuits are brought to physicality through the nerves/in the place of the nerves. (This is something not really completely explained in fine details, but basically circuits and nerves share the same "space" when circuits are activated and brought "up" to reality.) This meant his entire circuit, that exists throughout the body and was linked/connected/in-place of the nerves and etc was afflicted with Severing and Binding. This ****** him up.

Note that it wasn't the destruction of the Circuits themselves that did it. It was the nature of the concept of the Origin Bullet and how it interacted with the Circuits active.
Click to expand...

oh so it's possible to die because of a ****** up nervous system and that wheel chair guy was just lucky.


i honestly wonder where do magic circuits come from. is everyone born with it and just some people can't unlock it or whatever.


also the magus association they seem to be dicks to put it simply. (maybe i should learn magic myself to destroy it. aka be like kiritsugu and find a way to massacre the entire association)
 
Pokemonfan807 said:
oh so it's possible to die because of a ****** up nervous system and that wheel chair guy was just lucky.
Click to expand...
It's even commented he would have died without emergency care, that was performed by Sophia-Ri. I dont remember the anime well enough to recall if this was shown in it, but it was in the Novels. She fixed his internal organs/something like that, but couldn't do anything about his nerves, muscles and vessels IIRC.

You can read it here if you want the fight. At the very start they comment about the Origin Bullet nature and its workings.
Pokemonfan807 said:
i honestly wonder where do magic circuits come from. is everyone born with it and just some people can't unlock it or whatever.
Click to expand...
If you mean where they come from as far as a person's, they are a quality of the Soul. If you mean historically, it seems to be a mutation that appears, given Circe and Medea both have circuits but don't need them because they do Age of Gods OP Divine Words.

Li Shuwen was able to use Chi, which is said to be the same thing as Od, even though it was never said he was a magus, nor never commented of anything like Circuits.

If I had to give an educated guess, they seem to be a "genetic" mutation similar to Mystic Eyes themselves are a mutation in the Circuits of the eyes. But differently from Mystic Eyes, if no one ever taught the person with them to activate them, they just stay there, gathering dust/atrophiated. They also have a characteristic of somehow "becoming better" through lineage as a rule of thumb, but that I have no ******* idea how exactly would work.
Pokemonfan807 said:
also the magus association they seem to be dicks to put it simply. (maybe i should learn magic myself to destroy it. aka be like kiritsugu and find a way to massacre the entire association)
Click to expand...
Some of them definitely are. A way to see it is that they share the same Common Sense that normal humans do, but with a spin - the development of their own Magecraft, the search for the Root and the Concealment of Mystery are so important that anything can be done for it.

To use a real historical argument - Hiroshima and Nagasaki's bombing. Everyone knew it would be an inhuman act, but it was justified because it would force Japan to surrender. Imagine now that some magi see the three things above as of the same importance.
 
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LehenDuo said:
It's even commented he would have died without emergency care, that was performed by Sophia-Ri. I dont remember the anime well enough to recall if this was shown in it, but it was in the Novels. She fixed his internal organs/something like that, but couldn't do anything about his nerves, muscles and vessels IIRC.

If you mean where they come from as far as a person's, they are a quality of the Soul. If you mean historically, it seems to be a mutation that appears, given Circe and Medea both have circuits but don't need them because they do Age of Gods OP Divine Words.

Li Shuwen was able to use Chi, which is said to be the same thing as Od, even though it was never said he was a magus, nor never commented of anything like Circuits.

If I had to give an educated guess, they seem to be a "genetic" mutation similar to Mystic Eyes themselves are a mutation in the Circuits of the eyes. But differently from Mystic Eyes, if no one ever taught the person with them to activate them, they just stay there, gathering dust/atrophiated. They also have a characteristic of somehow "becoming better" through lineage as a rule of thumb, but that I have no ******* idea how exactly would work.

Some of them definitely are. A way to see it is that they share the same Common Sense that normal humans do, but with a spin - the development of their own Magecraft, the search for the Root and the Concealment of Mystery are so important that anything can be done for it.

To use a real historical argument - Hiroshima and Nagasaki's bombing. Everyone knew it would be an inhuman act, but it was justified because it would force Japan to surrender. Imagine now that some magi see the three things above as of the same importance.
Click to expand...

you mean it was a necessary evil - the mages
 
Pokemonfan807 said:
you mean it was a necessary evil - the mages
Click to expand...
I mean, I'm not defending it in as far as morality/ethics, but it's definitely completely believable. Imagine you were born in a family that has, for the last 400-500 years, pursued the development of a Magecraft and the Root through it. Your parents, grandparents and your last ten generations have from childhood learned about magecraft and then spent all their lifes researching it.

It's not acceptable as far as good and evil, yeah, but it's not only believable as far as a possibility, you see such things happen everyday. "The family business". Wouldn't someone born in such reality do everything to protect it?

Obviously, there would always be examples similar to Rin, who even though is a magi of excellence, has a proper moral compass. (But even she was able to justify killing in the Holy Grail War.)
 
A complement on the Kayneth thing
The destructive power of Kiritsugu's magecraft bullet depends on how many Magic Circuits were activated within the target the moment the bullet hit, since what destroys the practitioner’s body would be his own prana. On this point, it was absolutely fatal for Kayneth. Since he was provoked continuously and used the utmost amount of prana he had, he granted Kiritsugu the best result he could hope for.
Click to expand...
Prana = Magical Enegy. The only reason if ****** Kayneth so badly is because he's a top-top tier magus. He was like the youngest ever Brand and had the talent and circuitry to achieve Grand.

All Brands shown I can remember have Circuit Quality and Quantity A/A or greater.
 
LehenDuo said:
A complement on the Kayneth thing

Prana = Magical Enegy.
Click to expand...

kiritsugu shoots a regular bullet cause he knows the mage will use all his circuits to block it and then he’ll shoot the origin bullet

since if the mage uses all of it then the origin bullets will absolutely destroy the mage due to the amount of magic
 
Pokemonfan807 said:
kiritsugu shoots a regular bullet cause he knows the mage will use all his circuits to block it and then he’ll shoot the origin bullet

since if the mage uses all of it then the origin bullets will absolutely destroy the mage due to the amount of magic
Click to expand...
Yes, exactly. He uses the Calico submachine gun to force the foe magus to protect himself, baiting him or her to use his circuits, then uses Thompson.
And unless you are behind a concrete wall or inside an armored war vehicle, the Thompson is gonna ******* hit you.
 
LehenDuo said:
Yes, exactly. He uses the Calico submachine gun to force the foe magus to protect himself, baiting him or her to use his circuits, then uses Thompson.
And unless you are behind a concrete wall or inside an armored war vehicle, the Thompson is gonna ******* hit you.
Click to expand...

if the persons durability stats are too high is it possible it won’t penetrate?

example 4-B durability
 
Pokemonfan807 said:
if the persons durability stats are too high is it possible it won’t penetrate?

example 4-B durability
Click to expand...
That's a good question. I don't remember exactly, so I may be wrong, but I'm inclined to believe that Durability itself wouldn't be able to protect against the Origin Bullet. It is Conceptual Weapon with Severing and Binding as it's foundation. Unless you could protect yourself against the Severing part, Durability is meaningless as it's not actually exerting damage through impact/energy, but through the imposition of the concept.
 
LehenDuo said:
That's a good question. I don't remember exactly, so I may be wrong, but I'm inclined to believe that Durability itself wouldn't be able to protect against the Origin Bullet. It is Conceptual Weapon with Severing and Binding as it's foundation. Unless you could protect yourself against the Severing part, Durability is meaningless as it's not actually exerting damage through impact/energy, but through the imposition of the concept.
Click to expand...

wouldn’t the bullets be useless against something like a robot or anything that doesn’t have magical circuits/energy
 
Pokemonfan807 said:
wouldn’t the bullets be useless against something like a robot or anything that doesn’t have magical circuits/energy
Click to expand...
No ******* idea. They do use complex/delicate electrical circuits as an example of something that would be affected by the concept of Severing and Binding, therefore turned non-functional, but I don't think they elaborate on the idea.
 
SuperKamiNappa said:
I just pulled from the pre anniversary banner once hoping for Asclepius, I got NP2 Ash and Carmilla. Both copies of Ash from this one pull
Click to expand...
Considering Ash is like best archers buster ST (and really only loses to Squirtoria and Super Orion, while having battery and invulnerability that they do not) and he can destroy anything with NP2, pretty lucky

The way a good Ash can destroy Fluffy is so satisfying.
 
LehenDuo said:
Considering Ash is like best archers buster ST (and really only loses to Squirtoria and Super Orion) and he can destroy anything with NP2, pretty lucky
Click to expand...
Too bad the only non-budget buster support I have is Nightingale. Between Tamamo and (hopefully) Castoria I'll probably be better off sticking to Chloe in most cases.
 
SuperKamiNappa said:
Too bad the only non-budget buster support I have is Nightingale. Between Tamamo and (hopefully) Castoria I'll probably be better off sticking to Chloe in most cases.
Click to expand...
Do you have Asclepius? Summon a Koyan/Merlin/Waver/Castoria, use your Asclepius or even Anderson boy for boss fights. Because the bonus damage Ash gets through being low heal is basically enough to replace normal support set-ups, unless you are doing something whale-y like Merlin-Merlin-Plugsuit Koyanskaya or something like that. Between Buster/Quick +30%, up to Crit Damage +90% and imposing up to Defense -60% to the enemy he hits + a multiplier through lower health, he just makes up for anything normal alone, really. And he has one of those dumb passive skill sets with +12% crit, +10% buster crit, +5% buster, divinity and mental debuff immunity. Not to mention 4 hit Quick/Arts and 5 hits Buster.

Unless you have something like Squirtoria, he definitely won't let you down
 
LehenDuo said:
Considering Ash is like best archers buster ST (and really only loses to Squirtoria and Super Orion, while having battery and invulnerability that they do not) and he can destroy anything with NP2, pretty lucky

The way a good Ash can destroy Fluffy is so satisfying.
Click to expand...
he absolutely loses to chloe. Unless you meant damages at the same np level
 
TypeOU said:
he absolutely loses to chloe. Unless you meant damages at the same np level
Click to expand...
No set-up one turn burst? Yeah (Ash can get higher damage with his OC though, even comparing a NP1 Ash to NP5 Chloe I think, a NP2 definitely, but that requires low health and would be set-up)
Any other way? No.
In any type of prolonged fight? Chloe can't compare

At NP2/3 the only thing Ash loses to chloe is in 1 enemy wave farming, and even that not by much really - and she has that one turn to do anything given her kit has a 1 turn 5 cooldown offensive skill, 20% uptime only; compare to only 5% lower buff 3 turn 5 cooldown, 60% uptime Ash that also grant you Critical and Defense Down on hit that lingers for 5 turns. Available supports obviously can influence this massively and should be considered in a account-to-account basis, but Ash NP2/3 vs Chloe with equivalent set-up for a real fight like Fluffy is not a comparison at all.

I'm definitely not putting Chloe down, I love the little girl and her easy to use burst, but she is not made for hard fights, she is a one-turn unit, even if a really good one for a free NP5.
 
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LehenDuo said:
Do you have Asclepius? Summon a Koyan/Merlin/Waver/Castoria, use your Asclepius or even Anderson boy for boss fights. Because the bonus damage Ash gets through being low heal is basically enough to replace normal support set-ups, unless you are doing something whale-y like Merlin-Merlin-Plugsuit Koyanskaya or something like that. Between Buster/Quick +30%, up to Crit Damage +90% and imposing up to Defense -60% to the enemy he hits + a multiplier through lower health, he just makes up for anything normal alone, really. And he has one of those dumb passive skill sets with +12% crit, +10% buster crit, +5% buster, divinity and mental debuff immunity. Not to mention 4 hit Quick/Arts and 5 hits Buster.

Unless you have something like Squirtoria, he definitely won't let you down
Click to expand...
I did manage to pull Asclepius
 
LehenDuo said:
Look at him, then proceed with what you were doing.
As rare as he is, he's so bad it's not worth even trying to use him. Using Nasuverse categories of ranks, he is E- Rank.
Click to expand...
Leveled him up to maximum cause I want a challenge aka his interlude

Plus lehen I found a way to use him

just get Chen gong and scapegoat him every time he uses his np
 
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