Avalon Scaling Fix

[Wankbreaker]

We also have this statement about Divine Spirits existing in a higher dimension.

FGO NA being FGO NA
sigh.

This statement does not exist. (In the raws)

ただ、幾つかの傍証はある。それ故に、神霊は高次に存在すると予想されている。




"However, several pieces of supporting evidence exist . For that reason, it is theorized that Divine Spirits exist at a higher rank."

Jisho.org: Japanese Dictionary

jisho.org

This does not imply greater dimensions. Keep in mind, Euryale and Stheno are Divine Spirits, and they in life were weaker than the average human.

Rank 7 Superior Dead Apostles are also compared to Fillia Ishtar in strange fake.
(The DAA group exists in SF,but their level as a vampire is that of a Superior Dead Apostle, aka rank VII.)

Dead Apostles are definitely not higher dimensional.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Time constructs everything else.

Time is stated to be 4th dimensional.

Everything above the fourth dimension in the nasuverse is noted to be cut off from the universe, and the parallel world system, in which the Moon Cell is not.

There has not yet been a counter to this.

It's been mentioned so many times now, including by staff, that this view of how time works isn't correct. Time can bind any number of spatial dimensions, the stuff you're bringing up just means there can't be any additional temporal dimensions

 

[Wankbreaker]

Golden White Face | TMdict

Konjiki Hakumen. This is the nine-tailed divine spirit form of Cas-ko. In this form she is a pseudo-god that is a deification of the sun. You get a peek of

www.tmdict.com

Read my earlier comment, I countered this.

Kiara also created the Cage of the Fallen, where time simultaneously flows in multiple directions

once again, FGO NA strikes.

あそこでは時間は一定方向に流れて積もるものではなく、物差しスケールで測れるものであり、

"There, time does not flow and accumulate in a constant direction, but rather it is something that can be measured on a scale."

and it and space are measured from a one -dimensional perspective, somehow.

This is SE.RA.PH, correct?

Passionlip’s breast valley (which is a part of it) is explicitly fourth dimensional. This is in the OP.

 

[Wankbreaker]

It's been mentioned so many times now, including by staff, that this view of how time works isn't correct. Time can bind any number of spatial dimensions, the stuff you're bringing up just means there can't be any additional temporal dimensions

I’ve explained how everything above the fourth is not bound by time, but yet everyone seems to ignore this. It’s really getting annoying.

Demon Kiara’s higher dimensional senses in Tsukihime allow her to see outside of the universe.

The throne of heroes is separated from time and all parallel worlds.

Same with Avalon.

 

[Wankbreaker]

It's been mentioned so many times now, including by staff, that this view of how time works isn't correct. Time can bind any number of spatial dimensions, the stuff you're bringing up just means there can't be any additional temporal dimensions

て図する三次元空間おるエ同様 時間もある種のベクトルを帯びているのが分かりやすいでし う」 時間の流れ。エントロピ 。 まるで砂時計のように、刻一刻と未来は現在になり、現在は過去に な てしまう。誰にも留められない── 留めようもない、この宇宙に 定められた一方通行。 「統合した結果を予測するとしても、自分の行動を起点として測定す るとしても、過去である以上その過程は大して変わらない。あえてい えば、自分の行動を起点にする分、測定の方がいくらか狭く、精度が 上がるぐらいですね」 測定の未来視の脅威が『未来を固定してしまう』ことにあるなら、 と くに固定されている過去はそのような現象と関係ないわけだ。 そこまで話してから、申し訳なさそうにカウレスが付け足した。


"Like entropy in three-dimensional space, it should be easy to understand that time also has a kind of vector."

The flow of time. Entropy.

Like an hourglass, moment by moment, the future becomes the present, and the present becomes the past. No one can stop it—this one-way journey determined by the universe that cannot be halted.

"Whether predicting the integrated result or Entron one's own actions, the process doesn't change much since it's the past. If anything, measuring based on one's actions might be slightly narrower and more precise."

If the threat of future vision through measurement lies in "fixing the future," then the already fixed past has no relation to such phenomena.

After saying all this, Caules added apologetically.

Entropy (the flow of time), is only noted to exist within 3-Dimensional space. Nothing more.

 

[CloverDragon03]

That's in reference to a standard universal model, but that doesn't automatically cap Nasuverse at 4-D. Nowhere in that scan does it suggest that entropy only exists in 3-D space

 

[Robo432343]

i thought OP said 6d Avalon is not being contested and its just that no one actually scales to the rating, but they are literally doing the opposite
now it looks like the intention is trying to cap the cosmology at 4d

 

[Violatas]

i thought OP said 6d Avalon is not being contested but its just that no one actually scales to the rating, but they are literally doing the opposite

This is why I said this should've been the focus
@Wankbreaker Ok I know we don't agree on much but I'd def recommend going back to the original proposal given this is something I do agree on

 

[Robo432343]

yeah this thread is turning into a mess
like it is so unclear what op actually wants now

 

[Wankbreaker]

i thought OP said 6d Avalon is not being contested and its just that no one actually scales to the rating, but they are literally doing the opposite
now it looks like the intention is trying to cap the cosmology at 4d

No, the multiverse is what I’m trying to cap at 4D, considering everything above exists outside of it.

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

This is SE.RA.PH, correct?

Passionlip’s breast valley (which is a part of it) is explicitly fourth dimensional. This is in the OP.

What? No, the Cage of the Fallen is very explicitly not part of SE.RA.PH.. Hans even says that BB and SE.RA.PH. can't interfere with it.

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

No, the multiverse is what I’m trying to cap at 4D, considering everything above exists outside of it.

You didn't counter the fact that Proto-Merlin exists. Sure, she and normal Merlin were not born in Avalon, but they explicitly exist in a different Avalon from each other.



Nor have you actually countered a different Avalon existing in the British Lostbelt.

 

[Violatas]

You didn't counter the fact that Proto-Merlin exists. Sure, she and normal Merlin were not born in Avalon, but they explicitly exist in a different Avalon from each other.



Nor have you actually countered a different Avalon existing in the British Lostbelt.

Do you think anyone physically scales to Avalon?

 

[Wankbreaker]

This is why I said this should've been the focus
@Wankbreaker Ok I know we don't agree on much but I'd def recommend going back to the original proposal given this is something I do agree on

The Mooncell is going to be used to discredit the original proposal.

That's in reference to a standard universal model, but that doesn't automatically cap Nasuverse at 4-D. Nowhere in that scan does it suggest that entropy only exists in 3-D space

Trisha's elemental affinity was for Imaginary Numbers, she remembered. Imaginary Numbers space, where "nothingness" existed as an actual thing, was something like a dimensional pocket, a place where objects would be freed from interaction with the flow of space and time.

This is….. as explicit as it gets, frankly
I’m not sure what else you would need at this point.

What? No, the Cage of the Fallen is very explicitly not part of SE.RA.PH.. Hans even says that BB and SE.RA.PH. can't interfere with it.

Everything you attributed to the Cage of the Fallen are descriptions given to SE.RA.PH.

[NA] Script 9403450110

Atlas Academy DB - FGO Game Data Navigator

apps.atlasacademy.io

H. C. A. Ｈ・Ｃ・Ａ	In SE.RA.PH, time doesn't flow in only one direction. Instead, it's something that can be measured in some interesting ways.	あそこでは時間は一定方向に流れて積もるものではなく、 物差しスケールで測れるものであり、
H. C. A. Ｈ・Ｃ・Ａ	And the spacing on the calipers used to measure it is nothing like your conception of physical space.	その定規ノギスの間隔リミットもおまえたち 物理空間のものとは違う。
H. C. A. Ｈ・Ｃ・Ａ	That's probably because time and space are both measured from a one-dimensional perspective there.	『時間と空間』が一次元上の視点で 観測されているからだろう。

 

[Violatas]

The Mooncell is going to be used to discredit the original proposal.

Has anyone done that? Unless I missed that somewhere I don't think anyone's argued that. Regardless that should be a different topic away from Avalon IMO those two are completely separate things

 

[Wankbreaker]

You didn't counter the fact that Proto-Merlin exists. Sure, she and normal Merlin were not born in Avalon, but they explicitly exist in a different Avalon from each other.



Nor have you actually countered a different Avalon existing in the British Lostbelt.

Did you not read my comment? It is a SHADOW being PROJECTED.

とはいえ、ここはあくまでアヴァロンの跡。ブリテン異聞帯に映り込んでいる影にすぎない。


"That said, this is merely the traces of Avalon. It is nothing more than a shadow projected into the British Lostbelt."

あらゆる可能性を綴つづり織おる工房なのさ。

"It is a workshop that weaves and composes all possibilities."

It is also the source of all parallel worlds.

How is the source of it all bound by the same system that it is isolated and free from? Parallel worlds are noted to be a law of the world. Avalon is isolated from all of the world’s laws.

 

[Wankbreaker]

Has anyone done that? Unless I missed that somewhere I don't think anyone's argued that. Regardless that should be a different topic away from Avalon IMO those two are completely separate things

Something like “The Mooncell is 8D, so it makes no sense for people on that level to not break through avalon”

 

[Violatas]

Something like “The Mooncell is 8D, so it makes no sense for people on that level to not break through avalon”

I just rechecked the previous pages and no one argued this. Nearly everything from the first page to this are just arguing about the legitimacy of the higher dimensional statements; there has been no debating on if anyone physically scales to Avalon at all unironically

 

[Wankbreaker]

I just rechecked the previous pages and no one argued this. Nearly everything from the first page to this are just arguing about the legitimacy of the higher dimensional statements; there has been no debating on if anyone physically scales to Avalon at all unironically

Maybe I misread one of the posts. Either way, debate was settled with this paragraph from case files.
(I will attach it here again since it was swamped in a wall of text.)

Trisha's elemental affinity was for Imaginary Numbers, she remembered. Imaginary Numbers space, where "nothingness" existed as an actual thing, was something like a dimensional pocket, a place where objects would be freed from interaction with the flow of space and time.

This is….. as explicit as it gets, frankly
I’m not sure what else you would need at this point. Entropy (the thing that creates parallel worlds) only exists in 3 dimensional space.

Now,the actual main topic can be discussed,which is Avalon scaling.
So far I’ve not seen that really contested.

 

[Violatas]

Now,the actual main topic can be discussed,which is Avalon scaling.

I'm curious what thread it was accepted on ngl

 

[Wankbreaker]

I'm curious what thread it was accepted on ngl

Apparently from what I heard, Crimsonstarfallen/Paul Frank did most of the big upgrades?

Neither of them seem like they would bother to come here, judging by activity patterns.

 

[Violatas]

Crimson said off site he's done with the verse for the most part (even removed his name from the verse supporter page)

Paul, idk.

 

[GarrixianXD]

@Firestorm808 @Deagonx @LordGriffin1000 @LephyrTheRevanchist @Everything12 @SamanPatou @Agnaa Was asked to call staff.

@CrimsonStarFallen @Paul_Frank I was told your input here will also be useful.

 

[Wankbreaker]

Recap Episode! because I was too lazy to check case files, and thus a 80+ post argument began.

So, what are the big points of this thread?

Avalon’s rating itself is not being contested, but what is being contested is the idea of anything scaling to it.

• Merlin describes Avalon as a separate, isolated world unaffected by any external events occurring in the World
• The realm is described as being "shielded from the prayers of the outside world", and is entirely seperate and isolated from the world and it’s its laws and concepts.
• It is responsible for creating all parallel worlds in nasu, and is superior to the parallel world system.
• Arcueid says that ever since the Earth’s creation, nothing in existence has been strong enough to destroy it,referencing Avalon’s unbreakable nature
• Quotes from various Nasuverse texts emphasize Avalon's isolation, and how it is a “defense” that absolutely cannot be breached.
• The realm can protect its owner from "all interference".
• Everything in the multiverse/that is bound by the parallel world/pruning system is 4D, due to being affected by it’s manipulation of entropy.
  
  
• Entropy only exists within 3D space in nasu,which is supported by this quote:

Trisha's elemental affinity was for Imaginary Numbers, she remembered. Imaginary Numbers space, where "nothingness" existed as an actual thing, was something like a dimensional pocket, a place where objects would be freed from interaction with the flow of space and time.

Imaginary number space is explicitly described as 4 dimensional in series.

Entropy is described as the result of the flow of time in the nasuverse, and is the foundation of the parallel world/pruning system, as mentioned above.

• Everything above the 4th Dimension in nasu is also noted to be unaffected and separated from this parallel world system, like the throne of heroes, and Avalon.
• Since everything inside the multiverse has a 4D existence, they do not have the needed dimensionality to breach Avalon. This includes realms like the Moon Cell,as not only is it affected by the parallel world system, its core can be accessed through imaginary number space,which is 4D

 

[CloverDragon03]

In case it wasn't clear from how I was arguing, I disagree with this proposal. I think the arguments place arbitrary limits on the cosmology of the verse that aren't actually defined like how the OP thinks they are. And I'm also not the only staff member that has called attention to the OP's misunderstanding of how dimensionality works

 

[Wankbreaker]

In case it wasn't clear from how I was arguing, I disagree with this proposal. I think the arguments place arbitrary limits on the cosmology of the verse that aren't actually defined like how the OP thinks they are. And I'm also not the only staff member that has called attention to the OP's misunderstanding of how dimensionality works

I responded to your claim to entropy not only existing in 3 dimensional space with a scan saying it does not exist in INS. You have not yet responded to that….. and the 5 billion statements about Avalon being untouchable by very knowledgeable characters + material guides.

I looked at the thread Avalon got accepted in, and its entire rating hinges on it being a part of the world. Avalon is explicitly isolated and seperate.

Thread 'Nasuverse Mega CRT Part 3: God Tiers'

Jun 9, 2021

So this will probably be the biggest thread out of all the ones planned, and I don't imagine it will pass without at least a little bit of fuss. But hey, nobody ever made progress being conservative, so let's just try going all the way.

Tier​

So let's look at the ever infamous Avalon, constantly disregarded because "there's no proof of how dimensions work in the Nasuverse".

The Everdistant Utopia [Noble Phantasm]
Avalon.
The paradise in the Arthurian legends; a scabbard bearing the name of the Faerie Land.
The utopia Avalon was thought to be derived from the island that produced...

• CrimsonStarFallen
• bb (fate/extra ccc) fate/grand order nasuverse
• Replies: 155
• Forum: Content Revision

• 

 

[Agnaa]

In the Jisho entry you linked, it says as as in “the role of”

He is not metaphorically playing the role of a politician, he is one.

While that's often the case, I'm pretty sure that isn't necessarily true.

It'd hard to find examples for this sort of thing, but on the first step down that route, of entities literally playing the role of something they literally aren't, we have

このゲーム機はDVDプレイヤーとしても使えます。

This game console can be used as a DVD player.

 

[Wankbreaker]

While that's often the case, I'm pretty sure that isn't necessarily true.

It'd hard to find examples for this sort of thing, but on the first step down that route, of entities literally playing the role of something they literally aren't, we have

That still implies it has that sort of function, no?

Also, are you able to give your thoughts on the thread itself?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

What is the discussion now?

 

[Wankbreaker]

What is the discussion now?

I summed up my side in the 2 comments above.

Pretty much, the argument is if anything or anyone can affect Avalon, the 6D realm (this part seems pretty uncontested), and if everything that exists in the multiverse should be 4D, due to everything above 4D being not bound by it or its laws.

 

[Leandro]

Avalon’s rating itself is not being contested, but what is being contested is the idea of anything scaling to it.

Merlin describes Avalon as a separate, isolated world unaffected by any external events occurring in the World
The realm is described as being "shielded from the prayers of the outside world", and is entirely seperate and isolated from the world and it’s its laws and concepts.
It is responsible for creating all parallel worlds in nasu, and is superior to the parallel world system.
Arcueid says that ever since the Earth’s creation, nothing in existence has been strong enough to destroy it,referencing Avalon’s unbreakable nature
Quotes from various Nasuverse texts emphasize Avalon's isolation, and how it is a “defense” that absolutely cannot be breached.
The realm can protect its owner from "all interference".
Everything in the multiverse/that is bound by the parallel world/pruning system is 4D, due to being affected by it’s manipulation of entropy.

Entropy only exists within 3D space in nasu,which is supported by this quote:

Doesn't this mean that all of Gaia's parallel worlds share the same soul?

 

[Wankbreaker]

not sure if this is relevant because of no voting rights, but Garrixian told me offsite he agreed, and would comment tomorrow

 

[Violatas]

In case it wasn't clear from how I was arguing, I disagree with this proposal. I think the arguments place arbitrary limits on the cosmology of the verse that aren't actually defined like how the OP thinks they are. And I'm also not the only staff member that has called attention to the OP's misunderstanding of how dimensionality works

I'm kinda whatever on the higher dimensional args, but no one has really countered the fact no one should be scaling to Avalon (the 6D rating) in the first place in this entire thread so far.

 

[CRIMPSUMPSKI2]

I'm kinda whatever on the higher dimensional args, but no one has really countered the fact no one should be scaling to Avalon (the 6D rating) in the first place in this entire thread so far.

I agree with this, though I'm neutral on the dimensional bs for different reasons

 

[Wankbreaker]

I'm kinda whatever on the higher dimensional args, but no one has really countered the fact no one should be scaling to Avalon (the 6D rating) in the first place in this entire thread so far.

To make this even worse:



In #04, the Noble Phantasm "Avalon (The Distant Utopia)" quickly heals Shirou's wounds, demonstrating its effectiveness here as well. Avalon is the ultimate Noble Phantasm of Saber, serving as the sheath of "Excalibur (The Sword of Promised Victory )", and was the conceptual armament that Kiritsugu used as a catalyst for summoning Saber in the Fourth Holy Grail War.

The reason Shirou, who knew nothing about the Grail War and had made no preparations, could summon Saber was because the Avalon inside his body served as a catalyst. When its true name is released, Avalon isolates the user to the fairy realm beyond this world, becoming the strongest protection that blocks all attacks. Incidentally, because Shirou had this inside his body, its characteristics became specialized toward the sword.

This is about as blatant as you can get. Current scaling argues that destroying the world equals destroying Avalon. But Avalon is beyond the world (which is why it has a 6th dimensional nature), and blocks all attacks.

 

[Wankbreaker]

INS is also described in this way:

世界の狭間。無の内部。 ( あめつち かんげき )天地の間隙。( りくごう) 六合の域外。


Interstice of the world. Within the void. Between heaven and earth. Beyond the universe.


So no, there cannot be more than 3 spatial dimensions in the universe.

 

[Agnaa]

That still implies it has that sort of function, no?

Yeah, but at that point the question becomes "what does it mean to function as a 3-D printer"? For which I think we can take some amount of abstraction. One step would be "It isn't restricted to printing plastic". Another step would be "It isn't confined to a certain size limit". Another step would be "It isn't directed by a machine". And a final step would be "It isn't restricted to 3-D objects, but it still fabricates things precisely according to a schema, like a 3-D printer does".

I don't think the language provided means that we can flat-out reject it going all the way to that final step.

Also, are you able to give your thoughts on the thread itself?

No.

 

[Wankbreaker]

not sure if this is relevant because of no voting rights, but Garrixian told me offsite he agreed, and would comment tomorrow

Well, it’s relevant now. 2 more votes (maybe)

 

[Leandro]

I can't agree. If there's only one Avalon, then there's only one soul of the planet. However, in Notes, it's clear that humans killed the soul of the planet.

 

[Wankbreaker]

I can't agree. If there's only one Avalon, then there's only one soul of the planet. However, in Notes, it's clear that humans killed the soul of the planet.

Then it’s very simple. The soul of the planet isn’t what was killed. Especially since Gaia could still send orders to the ultimate ones afterwards.
Avalon is also again, noted to be free from all the laws of the world (including the one that makes parallel worlds)