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Nasuverse Discussion Board (New Forum)

I don't understand why Gilgamesh's full-power Enuma Elish is a 1-C tier.

Gilgamesh is weaker than Goetia and Zeus, and there is a setting that says he cannot destroy Avalon.

Despite this, Gilgamesh's profile says that a full-powered Enuma Elish is tier 1-C.

Tier: High 6-C, High 6-C to Low 6-B with Gate of Babylon, at least Low 6-B with Enuma Elish, 1-C with Full Power Enuma Elish

I think the tier of Gilgamesh's Full Power Enuma Elish should be changed.
 
korea1234 said:
I don't understand why Gilgamesh's full-power Enuma Elish is a 1-C tier.

Gilgamesh is weaker than Goetia and Zeus, and there is a setting that says he cannot destroy Avalon.

Despite this, Gilgamesh's profile says that a full-powered Enuma Elish is tier 1-C.

Tier: High 6-C, High 6-C to Low 6-B with Gate of Babylon, at least Low 6-B with Enuma Elish, 1-C with Full Power Enuma Elish

I think the tier of Gilgamesh's Full Power Enuma Elish should be changed.
Click to expand...
Imagine thinking EA scales to Avalon in big 2024
 
Wankbreaker said:
The reverse side doesnt exist in this lostbelt, since fairies still rule the world.
Click to expand...

Alright first thing first don't use the word reverse side of the world
Reverse side of the world refers to 2 things
1) Avalon (which is part of the observable universe, since it can be interacted with)
2) Void space also exists on the reverse side of the world (but it exists by being unobservable i.e imaginary numbers)

Be clear what you're referring to , before you start mixing the 2 together

Well judging from your other comment I believe you're talking about Avalon. What about it? It doesn't exist in lb6?
If only we had a section completely dedicated to Avalon with a special map and background music and story sections and all where we forged a weapon against threats to humanity like the PHH Avalon
💀
Merlin says that this version is a cheap copy of the original but
1) I don't think it's any worse than the original since it has the same capabilities, capabilities like forging weapons against threats to humanity
Like a hero of justice once said "there is no rule that an imitation can't surpass the original"(jk)
2) bro just stop I'm almost convinced you didn't read the story properly or at all. Vortigern was not just going to destroy the lb6 but PHH as well which would result in the destruction of Avalon from phh. It's literally the main plot point of abyssal worm not only affecting British lost world but escaping it and spreading to PHH.
Read the story before making up presumptions

3) Fairies abandoning has absolutely nothing to do with Avalon not existing, the consequence was that a weapon wasn't created to defeat Sefar, where do you think cernunous and his priestess retreated to escape from the white titan who was hell bent on destroying civilizations and pantheons

Wankbreaker said:
So, flowery text that means nothing, cool.
Click to expand...
That's a nice argument you got there Mr senator, care to elaborate

Apparently something you don't agree with you never bother to give a direct answer, and try to drag the conservation by saying FlOwEry lAnGuagE

Just say no that you don't believe in Zeus's capabilities because you said so so we can move on
Wankbreaker said:
The inner sea isnt mentioned here, just the physical layers of the planet?
Click to expand...
I not gonna argue on this point much, anyone can have their opinion, since I'm pretty sure Kiara becoming the planet itself would grant her the authority to bypass Avalon since Avalon is very much part of earth, it just ignores interference up to 6th dimension
Any other statement about reverse side of the world being unobservable/untouched is about void space not Avalon

Also you yourself admitted that Albion was able to reach the entrance of Avalon just by digging through the earth (he most likely knew about the entrance that's his remanent also appeared when we wanted to enter Avalon in lb6, can't remember what he said thou something something about judging)
Wankbreaker said:
It is the "greatest defense in this world" (meaning its the most effective defensive noble phantasm), and can block true magic, which what do you know, Goetia's plan uses the 5th magic!
Click to expand...
Since this is main point you're stuck at I'll deal with now
"The Fifth Magic (第五魔法, Daigo Mahō): also known as Magic Blue (魔法・青, Mahō Ao); Its exact domain is unknown, but it has abilities related to Time Travel (時間旅行, Jikan Ryokō) and making the laws of conservation of mass shoulder the debts of a past without future."

(I'm not too familiar with tsukihime,any tsukihime fan can correct me if I'm wrong here with explanation 🙏)

So this is the main issue right
Well FIRST I mean once again you've completely butchered Goetia's abilities by using assumptions
It explicitly says"unknown and time travel, time related abilities"

1) You don't know the difference between goetia's AAS and HUMAN ORDER INCINERATION
2) Human order incineration aka Goetia's master plan to use humanity as a fuel to go back in time to recreate the planet without death , what do you know that's time travel and it's only hinted to be somewhat similar to true magic and not exactly the same thing. Mind showing me where it states that it's the exact same thing
3)AAS :is the third Noble Phantasm of King Solomon The "|" of original sin. At a first glance, it looks like a ring of light that encircles the Earth.In reality, it is an aggregation of hundreds of millions of beams of light, cast over the satellite orbit and with a size close if not equal to that of North America.Each one of these lines carries extreme damage values comparable to Excalibur, an A Rank Noble Phantasm. The band of light is made up of all the Magical Energy gathered from Earth and the entire era where it manifests"
4) you saying Avalon blocks true magic like the 5th only proves that since it's somewhat similar Only Avalon maybe able to resist the effects of time travel and nothing else since the time travel part is related to the 5th

How exactly this ☝️ help Avalon against AAS which is a giant space Laser(there I said it, it couldn't be simpler) break apart the planet itself

Unless you also most definitely believe that time travel and space lasers are of the same category
Wankbreaker said:
It's defense also "goes beyond the level of just mere defense"
Click to expand...
Again with Avalon glazing I already told you this proves nothing and I can make the exact same argument for Lord Camelot
""Goes beyond the level of just mere defense"
You know what that sounds like, yeah sounds like FloWeRy lAnGuage since goetia , vortigern and Zeus says otherwise
Wankbreaker said:
read kara no kyoukai. the counter force isnt a shield. who told you this?


───そうかもしれない。


　抑止力というのはね、我々にとって最大の味方でもあり、同時に最大の敵でもある〝方向の修復者〟を指す。


　私達人間は死にたくない。平和でいたい。


　私達のいる星だって死にたくない。長生きしたい。


　抑止力というのはそれだ。霊長という群体の誰もが持つ統一された意識、自分達の世を存続させたいという願望。我を取り外してヒトという種の本能にある方向性が収束し、カタチになったもの。それが抑止力とよばれるカウンターガーディアン。


　そうだな、例えばａという優れた人間が独裁を行なったとしよう。彼は正義の人で、その統治は理想的であったとする。人間が人間として見た道徳性の限りでね。しかしａの行動がひとりの人間としてではなく、霊長全体の視点から見て悪、つまり滅びの要因となる場合、抑止力は具現する。


　コレは霊長の世を存続させたい、というａさえ含めた人類の無意識下の集合体だ。人類を守る為に人類を拘束するこの存在は、誰も知らないうちに現れ、誰にも観測される事なくａを消滅させる。人々の無意識下の渦が作り上げた代表者は、やはり無意識であるが故に意識されない。


　とはいっても、何もカタチのない意識が呪いになってａを殺す訳ではない。抑止力は、たいてい媒体となりうる人間に宿り、敵となるａを駆逐する。媒体になった人間はａを倒す為だけの能力を持つが、それ以上の能力は与えられない。ａにとって代わる事ができないようにね。抑止力という霊長全体の意志を受けとめられる受信者、そういった特殊なチャンネルを持つ人間というのは稀に存在する。歴史は、これを英雄と呼んでもてはやすんだ。


　だが近代になってこの呼び名は使われないな。文明が発達して、人間が自分達自身を滅ぼすなんて事は簡単になってしまった。どこぞの企業の会長が全財力を傾けてアマゾンの森林の伐採量を増やせば、一年後にも地球は終わる。ほら、いつでもどこでも地球のピンチだろ？　抑止力に衝き動かされて誰も知らないうちに世界を救っている、なんて輩やからはごまんといるんだ。英雄は一世代に一人だけ。世界を救う、なんて程度の事じゃあ現代では英雄とは呼ばれない。また、このａが人間の手におえない場合、抑止力は自然現象となってａもろとも周囲を消滅させる。大昔、どこぞの大陸が沈んだのもこいつの仕業さ。


　……こう話すと人類の守護者そのものなんだが、こいつには人間としての感情がない。時には万人を幸せにするという行為の前に立ち塞がる事もある。厄介なのは、こいつが結局人間そのものの代表者だという事だ。
Click to expand...
Considering how quickly you replied yesterday I'm sure you didn't read my comment properly
Holy shit bro pulled out a japanese paragraph when he completely misread what I said 😭(I can't even speak Japanese 🙏)
Where did I say that counter force is a literal shield 💀

The main point that I was trying to make was that counter force is very efficient and deals with threats to humanity before they can do any permanent damage to Earth since counter force is not bound by time and is extremely intelligent

Even koyanskaya admits as much in Tunguska that even thou Taigong Wang's spell failed , he still was the best possible candidate to deal with her
 
LamentSatanael said:
Regarding what @Deadlock-333 said; I've argued and discussed about certain stuff off-site and it is more or less correct which I agree with.

The statement more or less in tldr is that Lord Camelot with full willpower is better than Avalon against Planet Busters or similar stuff; especially feats wise which I agree with given Avalon feats wise isn't all that BUT your statement makes it seem like LC > Avalon wholly because of the gimmicks. It all comes down to circumstances.

Both have equivalent wank as the "greatest defence".
Click to expand...
It wasn't really my intention to portray that Lord Camelot>Avalon in every category I only meant by feats sorry about the mixup 🙏

Also fate powerscaling is wierd man it basically who the author wants to win
 
Deadlock-333 said:
Merlin says that this version is a cheap copy of the original but
1) I don't think it's any worse than the original since it has the same capabilities, capabilities like forging weapons against threats to humanity
Click to expand...
Agree with most of your points but the fact it's stated it's a cheap copy of the original mostly means the original >= the copy; but you aren't wrong exactly. Just because it's a copy doesn't mean it isn't 1:1; the keyword here is most "cheap" to focus on which in the end is merely semantics where we'll get nowhere squabbling with.
Deadlock-333 said:
2) bro just stop I'm almost convinced you didn't read the story properly or at all. Vortigern was not just going to destroy the lb6 but PHH as well which would result in the destruction of Avalon from phh. It's literally the main plot point of abyssal worm not only affecting British lost world but escaping it and spreading to PHH.
Click to expand...
I did tell her this yes.
Deadlock-333 said:
That's a nice argument you got there Mr senator, care to elaborate
Click to expand...
 
Deadlock-333 said:
It wasn't really my intention to portray that Lord Camelot>Avalon in every category I only meant by feats sorry about the mixup 🙏

Also fate powerscaling is wierd man it basically who the author wants to win
Click to expand...
Basically: have two people fight; whoever loses is the stronger one.

That is Fate; rather most of Nasuverse explained in all of it's certainty
 
Deadlock-333 said:
It wasn't really my intention to portray that Lord Camelot>Avalon in every category I only meant by feats sorry about the mixup 🙏

Also fate powerscaling is wierd man it basically who the author wants to win
Click to expand...
one can block MEODP and all 5 true magics

the other is lord camelot
 
Wankbreaker said:
one can block MEODP and all 5 true magics
Click to expand...
MEODP from who exactly?

Nobody with that ability scales to Goetia and you're just assuming lord Camelot can't lmao

Non of the true 5 magics from their description and my understanding are combat applicable (you could make some arguments for 5th but time related abilities aren't offense focused either)

Unlike AAS(which is a Noble phantasm not a true magic)
Wankbreaker said:
The other is Lord Camelot
Click to expand...
10/10 argument you got me😭
 
Last edited:
Deadlock-333 said:
MEODP from who exactly?
Click to expand...
Ryougi in back alley satsuki. They straight up say “let’s get someone who resists it”, and bring out artoria (MHX)
Deadlock-333 said:
Nobody with that ability scales to Goetia and you're just assuming lord Camelot can't lmao
Click to expand...
Zelretch literally beat the crimson moon’s ass with the 2nd magic.
Aoko fought a stellar class while using having at most 40% of her power, and has a 30% chance of winning against arc
Deadlock-333 said:
Non of the true 5 magics from their description and my understanding are combat applicable (you could make some arguments for 5th but time related abilities aren't offense focused either)
Click to expand...

The True Magic that the Traveling Magician Aozaki Aoko inherited from her grandfather. Its nickname is "Magic Blue." The user Aozaki Aoko is average as a magus but displays transcendence with destruction. Because of this trait, there is a rumor that "Magic Blue" is also a True Magic involving destruction.
Click to expand...
Deadlock-333 said:
Unlike AAS(which is a Noble phantasm not a true magic)
Click to expand...
Nasu literally says he uses a piece of the 5th, and pretty much says “watch closely to learn more about Aoko”
Deadlock-333 said:
10/10 argument you got me😭
Click to expand...
 
Wankbreaker said:
Ryougi in back alley satsuki. They straight up say “let's get someone who resists it”, and bring out artoria (MHX)
Click to expand...
Is that suppose to be some sort of proof

1) back alley wait aren't these funny skits ,also where does it say mxh has Avalon? I don't remember mhx possessing Avalon her noble phantasm is just secret caliber

Also this is one of here skills 💀
Cosmo Reactor (A Rank): A reactor that’s cosmic, it’s allowed only to the shining Saber. The reactor reacts to many things. Like the plot, for example

2) ryougi according to you is BARELY SERVANT LEVEL what are trying to prove here Avalon is barely servant level
Wankbreaker said:
Zelretch literally beat the crimson moon's ass with the 2nd magic.
Click to expand...
Provide more context

I don't know anything about tsukihime but I remember hearing something about Zelretch using jeweled sword WITH 2ND MAGIC
Wankbreaker said:
Aoko fought a stellar class while using at most 40% of her power, and has a 30% chance of winning against arc
Click to expand...
And? Circumstances matter

Gilgamesh lost to Shirou

Frickin Kama lost to Scheherazade and tsubone(a weak human soul)

YOU'RE talking like we're discussing DBZ where the strongest character always wins(well most of the time anyway)
Wankbreaker said:
Nasu literally says he uses a piece of the 5th, and pretty much says “watch closely to learn more about Aoko”
Click to expand...
I literally explained it to you that 5th part is related to Goetia's time traveling scheme and not AAS

AAS has not been hinted to be related to 5th magic

"A piece of 5th" good to know that HUMAN ORDER INCINERATION it's not completely 5th

Funny you should mention arc <s>Shiki victim</s>

The true 5 magics(I'm talking about magic specifically don't bring in any character) may or may not be stronger than Goetia but that absolutely doesn't change the fact they're a bad matchup against Avalon unlike lie like vortigern, AAS, WORLD DISCIPLINE KRAUNOS (like I said circumstances matter)

You're trying to degrade every character solely on one specific type of power

And at same time not wanting to admit that Vortigern(with his ruler/pretender level saint graph) rails the entire planet as if it was nothing (if he wasn't stopped) and Goetia with his 2nd planetary saint graph is way stronger
 
Last edited:
Uhh guys how do you post pictures here do I have to upload something like a meme to imgur first or what I can't seem to understand it (pls dumb it down a little)

Also how do you uses those text with a line in the middle usually on reddit or YouTube it's like this
~~here~~ and -here-
 
F.A.T.E is busy debating with toxic so I'll just respond to your stuff as a neutral entity.
Deadlock-333 said:
Is that suppose to be some sort of proof

1) back alley wait aren't these funny skits ,also where does it say mxh has Avalon? I don't remember mhx possessing Avalon her noble phantasm is just secret caliber
Click to expand...
Just because they're funny skits doesn't mean the stuff from them is to be devalued as non-canon IMO; since melty blood is almost to the same. The lore and stuff still hold up.
Deadlock-333 said:
I don't know anything about tsukihime but I remember hearing something about Zelretch using jeweled sword WITH 2ND MAGIC
Click to expand...
Beating Crimson Moon purely? Jeweled sword did play a part but it was mostly 2nd Magic you'd say; especially with Zelretch's output. What Crimson Moon did was drop a mirror image of the Moon (Reference MBAA Red Arc's last arcs or OC3) and Zelretch pushed back the Moon image with a virtually limitless ether (2nd Magic) canon alongside 2nd Magic (Do note it is still hindered by Zel's output)

Q: You must tell us the details of the battle between the Crimson Moon and Zelretch at his prime!!
Click to expand...

A: You are asking me to divulge such delicious details from my stash of ideas? Mmmm... I have shown some similar scenes in Mahoyo, they would carry a similar vibe. It would be something like, the Crimson Moon dropping a mirror image of the Moon (HERE IT COMES!) versus Zelretch doing something only he was able to do: a virtually limitless Ether Cannon unleashed through a special magic circle ("Magic Square"). If we had five times the budget of Mahoyo, then we may be able to realize such a scene.
Click to expand...


Deadlock-333 said:
And? Circumstances matter

Gilgamesh lost to Shirou
Click to expand...
Yeah; he wasn't going all out with using his B-ranked NPs and above.

Too tired for the rest; that's F.A.T.E's stuff to argue; I'm just a discussion person
 
LamentSatanael said:
F.A.T.E is busy debating with toxic so I'll just respond to your stuff as a neutral entity.
Click to expand...
Who's that?

Anyway wankbreaker seems to misunderstood once again what I was trying to say

When I said no one with that ability scales to Goetia I mean MEODP specifically since shiki got downgraded

I wasn't talking about true magic users
LamentSatanael said:
Just because they're funny skits doesn't mean the stuff from them is to be devalued as non-canon IMO; since melty blood is almost to the same. The lore and stuff still hold up.
Click to expand...
Sure why not but once again
The main point I tried to argue was mhx not possessing Avalon (I mean it's not in her profile)
Even if it was since ryougi is only apparently servant level her eyes not being able to pass through Avalon (which mhx doesn't even possess and they most likely were referring to cosmo reactor) isn't anything impressive
LamentSatanael said:
Beating Crimson Moon purely? Jeweled sword did play a part but it was mostly 2nd Magic you'd say; especially with Zelretch's output. What Crimson Moon did was drop a mirror image of the Moon (Reference MBAA Red Arc's last arcs or OC3) and Zelretch pushed back the Moon image with a virtually limitless ether (2nd Magic) canon alongside 2nd Magic (Do note it is still hindered by Zel's output)
Click to expand...
I see makes sense
LamentSatanael said:
Yeah; he wasn't going all out with using his B-ranked NPs and above.
Click to expand...
No comment, the kama example is way better for circumstancial wins against powerful characters (and Even that only happened due to kama's own mistake)
LamentSatanael said:
Too tired for the rest; that's F.A.T.E's stuff to argue; I'm just a discussion person
Click to expand...
I also mostly a discussion person 🙏 so no need to summon someone it's not like this is crt or anything
 
Deadlock-333 said:
Sure why not but once again
The main point I tried to argue was mhx not possessing Avalon (I mean it's not in her profile)
Even if it was since ryougi is only apparently servant level her eyes not being able to pass through Avalon (which mhx doesn't even possess and they most likely were referring to cosmo reactor) isn't anything impressive
Click to expand...
Yeah, that one is F.A.T.E's thing to argue so I won't make any comments on your points outright going against hers as a neutral entity but I can see your points, yes.
Deadlock-333 said:
No comment, the kama example is way better for circumstancial wins against powerful characters (and Even that only happened due to kama's own mistake)
Click to expand...
Yeah that's a fair example
Deadlock-333 said:
I also mostly a discussion person 🙏 so no need to summon someone it's not like this is crt or anything
Click to expand...
Na, na. I'm a good friend of F.A.T.E's off-site; aside from her wankbreaking fetish she's a good person. I responded to the stuff you sent out of my own will since F.A.T.E was busy anyway.
 
Deadlock-333 said:
Bold of you to assume I (the greatest jjjba wanker)didn't

Loved every second of it 🤩
Click to expand...
It was a hype live moment; thought Alucard was gonna take it but then Dio just "Muda'd" all over the place... also you wank JJBA nice.
I've been thinking of hopping into the stuff myself once I complete the manga (currently at part 5); might find ourselves tag-teaming there.
 
Hey, so I noticed Goetia has Absolute Hot (Planck Temperature) listed in some other site, curious if there's any truth to that?
 
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