Nasuverse Discussion Board (New Forum)

[BreezeHM]

Speaking of harming Chaos, Tier 1 Musashi when?

 

[KingNanaya]

Speaking of harming Chaos, Tier 1 Musashi when?

when she gets out of wherever she is

 

[Tyranno223]

Speaking of harming Chaos, Tier 1 Musashi when?

She didn't harm it, just closed the portal/rift thingy

 

[BreezeHM]

She didn't harm it, just closed the portal/rift thingy

I meant it as a joke

 

[Tyranno223]

Bugger. It's hard to tell with these things sometimes

 

[BreezeHM]

Bugger. It's hard to tell with these things sometimes

I think it looks more like one now

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

I found something nice. When comparing Olga and Goetia, Da Vinci said Goetia is stronger than Olga and that Olga was the strongest we've seen since Goetia. Olga was harmed by Kirschtaria Wodime who could fight against Zeus. This alone puts Goetia above everything we've ever faced in the series

I forgot about this, but wasn't this in reference to planetary class threats?

Wodime didn't harm olga at all, it was only a hypothesis. She was completely fine and no U-Olga Marie is far beyond Goetia in Lostbelt 7. She became stellar class and destroyed ort when severely weakened at the cost of her life.

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

This statement was made in Heian Kyo, meaning everything up to and including U Olga Marie. It does not include Ibuki, Morgan, Kukulkan, Tez, Caz, or ORT

U-Olga Marie is stronger than Morgan.

It should exclude her. Tezcatlipoca is weak ass shit in Lostbelt 7 because he was summoned in a human vessel, he couldn't even beat non beast koyan amped by a couple of people to divine spirit level and said a weakened U-Olga Marie was too much for him. He should be stronger in his real divine spirit tho

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

mageman is a certified opp. bro comes back after a month to report me and leave, and this happened twice. like get off my meat!

 

[Mageman460]

mageman is a certified opp. bro comes back after a month to report me and leave, and this happened twice. like get off my meat!

I never left. I tend to lurk and not post often.

If you got a problem with me, maybe consider reaching out to me instead of just trying to start something on the general thread.

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

mageman is a certified opp. bro comes back after a month to report me and leave, and this happened twice. like get off my meat!

People who report people gotta touch grass

 

[Tdjwo]

mageman is a certified opp. bro comes back after a month to report me and leave, and this happened twice. like get off my meat!

Lmao. He's on your ass bro. What did you do to him?

 

[Regidian]

U-Olga Marie is stronger than Morgan.

It should exclude her. Tezcatlipoca is weak ass shit in Lostbelt 7 because he was summoned in a human vessel, he couldn't even beat non beast koyan amped by a couple of people to divine spirit level and said a weakened U-Olga Marie was too much for him. He should be stronger in his real divine spirit tho

We actualy don't know if u-olga is stronger than morgan tho, we were never able to see morgan all power (her using her 12 rongho) and the only time we see her using her power it was enough to let her be above the other lostbelt king.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

We actualy don't know if u-olga is stronger than morgan tho, we were never able to see morgan all power (her using her 12 rongho) and the only time we see her using her power it was enough to let her be above the other lostbelt king.

u olga got buffed to stellar class circa lb7, defnitely stronger than a lb king+-

 

[Regidian]

u olga got buffed to stellar class circa lb7, defnitely stronger than a lb king+-

I talk mostly about her before her up

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Anyone is excited on Samurai Remnant? I'm mostly looking forward for Rogue Saber and Shousetsu's servant

Btw here is the official website for the characters: https://www.koeitecmoamerica.com/fate-sr/characters/

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

no kojirou?

 

[Tdjwo]

This guy doesn't learn. Isn't there a discussion rule for this type of crt? Bringing up the same reddit tier "debunk" just for it to get rejected

https://vsbattles.com/threads/nasuverse-dimensions-revision.157247/

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

This guy doesn't learn. Isn't there a discussion rule for this type of crt? Bringing up the same reddit tier "debunk" just for it to get rejected

https://vsbattles.com/threads/nasuverse-dimensions-revision.157247/

btw what happened with the hr thing

 

[KingNanaya]

This guy doesn't learn. Isn't there a discussion rule for this type of crt? Bringing up the same reddit tier "debunk" just for it to get rejected

https://vsbattles.com/threads/nasuverse-dimensions-revision.157247/

there was. from what I saw, there's only one new argument, that being the sphere stuff. I don't really care about the soul or heroic spirit stuff tbh.

 

[Tdjwo]

btw what happened with the hr thing

They didn't reply me. The HR never reply any reports from non-staff.

 

[Tdjwo]

there was. from what I saw, there's only one new argument, that being the sphere stuff. I don't really care about the soul or heroic spirit stuff tbh.

The way rules would be made just for staff members to break the same rules without repercussions is just ridiculous. Nonetheless, based on what I can see, these are all debunkable reddit arguments. Going to ask for perms later to debunk them.

The Heroic spirit stuff is objectively false
He doesn't understand how the Throne of Heroes works.

 

[KingNanaya]

The Heroic spirit stuff is objectively false

I don't know enough about it.

He doesn't understand how the Throne of Heroes works.

the throne of heroes is stupid anyways

 

[Deagonx]

The Heroic spirit stuff is objectively false
He doesn't understand how the Throne of Heroes works.

It's not. Dark Sakura was directly stated to be as powerful as true Heroic Spirits.

She's at the same level as pure heroic spirits, the Counter Guardians.

 

[Tdjwo]

It's not. Dark Sakura was directly stated to be as powerful as true Heroic Spirits.

Once again, you misinterpreted the context and just jumped to conclusion. Imma give you a clue tho.

Heroic spirits can't be controlled by humans since only the "world" can summon their main body. The only thing capable of controlling them is the holy grail or something similar.

Guess what powers Dark Sakura

This has almost nothing to do with powerlevels.

 

[Deagonx]

This has almost nothing to do with powerlevels.

It explicitly has everything to do with power level. That is why only the World can summon the main body, the main body is the true power level, servants are weaker emanations. That is why Sakura was "on the level of a pure heroic spirit" after absorbing the other seven servants.

 

[Deagonx]

The Holy Grail that appears in Fate/stay night is not the original, but rather a replica made to function as a “wish-granter.”
When Heroic Spirits are defeated, they return to their original forms as fragments of power and vanish from the time axis.
However, before that can happen the Einzbern Holy Grail intercepts and stores them until the ritual to open the “hole” can be enacted by the Great Holy Grail.

The servants summoned by the holy grail are quite explicitly fragments of power of the main body heroic spirit.

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

I talk mostly about her before her up

I was talking about after that

u olga got buffed to stellar class circa lb7, defnitely stronger than a lb king+-

Ye, ye

Except kukulkan tho

It's not. Dark Sakura was directly stated to be as powerful as true Heroic Spirits.

Preposterous, counter guardians don't even have a proper establishment of power how does this even make sense. They get power depending on the scale of the threat to humanity, how would she be on the same level of something that doesn't have a fixed power but power that changes depending on the context. She has nothing no ability that's received from being in the same scale as counter guardians or anything that gets power from the counter force.

She can't Amp herself reactively
She doesn't get any amps reactively to adapt to threat to humanity nor the planet

She has absolutely no other scan supports her being on the same scale as counter guardians or anything that exists as an extension of the counter force, she is hardly true magic level which true ancestors who get power from the planet should be reactively at the very least.

It explicitly has everything to do with power level. That is why only the World can summon the main body, the main body is the true power level, servants are weaker emanations. That is why Sakura was "on the level of a pure heroic spirit" after absorbing the other seven servants.

Can you explain to me where you got her being that strong because she absorbed 7 servants????!! It's because of her being an incomplete holy grail and imitation of third magic.

If you're using "only the world can summon the main body", then sorry to disappoint you ort can eat information of real Heroic Spirits from the throne of heroes but can't summon himself as a true Heroic spirit, it has nothing to do with power. Outer gods can access the throne of heroes and forcibly summon servants using the information in the throne as a catalyst.

It doesn't seem to pertain to power, the throne of heroes and Heroic Spirits are an extension of human order and by extension the counter force.

 

[Tdjwo]

The servants summoned by the holy grail are quite explicitly fragments of power of the main body heroic spirit.

Honestly, having debated you several times already, and knowing how you never seem to stop regardless of you being right or wrong, imma just let the type-moon wiki do the job

 

[Deagonx]

Preposterous, counter guardians don't even have a proper establishment of power how does this even make sense. They get power depending on the scale of the threat to humanity, how would she be on the same level of something that doesn't have a fixed power but power that changes depending on the context. She has nothing no ability that's received from being in the same scale as counter guardians or anything that gets power from the counter force.

You're hyperfixating on the phrase Counter Guardians, but that's only the second half of the sentence. It directly states: She's at the same level as pure heroic spirits which refers to the main bodies in the Throne of Heroes.

Can you explain to me where you got her being that strong because she absorbed 7 servants????!! It's because of her being an incomplete holy grail and imitation of third magic.

Where did I get that? Well, you see, it was directly in the story.

"You should not be surprised. The Holy Grail is a filtration device that turns the soul into pure magical energy.
Yes, it should let you grant any wish. It contains more magical energy than a magus could ever use within his lifetime.
That is why it is better with more sacrifices. It should be omnipotent with six Servants as sacrifices.
Five Servants have filled the Holy Grail. Only one more is needed for the omnipotent grail they sought."

 

[Deagonx]

Honestly, having debated you several times already, and knowing how you never seem to stop regardless of you being right or wrong, imma just let the type-moon wiki do the job

Thanks! This is very helpful to my argument.

"Converted to magical energy, [Gilgamesh] provides enough to accelerate the development of the Grail even without enough Servants."

The Holy Grail absorbs servants. Servants are fragments of a pure Heroic Spirits power. Once Sakura had absorbed enough Servants, she was said to be on the level of a Pure Heroic Spirit. The text is fairly explicit that Dark Sakura's power was equal to a being in the Throne of Heroes.

 

[KingNanaya]

You're hyperfixating on the phrase Counter Guardians

She's at the same level as pure heroic spirits, the Counter Guardians.

no, he isn't

 

[Tdjwo]

Thanks! This is very helpful to my argument.

"Converted to magical energy, [Gilgamesh] provides enough to accelerate the development of the Grail even without enough Servants."

The Holy Grail absorbs servants. Servants are fragments of a pure Heroic Spirits power. Once Sakura had absorbed enough Servants, she was said to be on the level of a Pure Heroic Spirit. The text is fairly explicit that Dark Sakura's power was equal to a being in the Throne of Heroes.

God, can you even read? Tell me, how is Gilgamesh, a servant, able to possess greater resistance to the black grail than Heroic spirits? Why is he able to provide more energy than literal heroic spirits for the grail? Why is that the case despite Heroic spirits existing in a higher plane bla bla bla? This is a blatant evidence that Dark Sakura doesn't have to be necessarily superior or equal to heroic spirits in order for her to possess or absorb them. Even Gilgamesh is able to provide more mana to the grail than literal heroic spirits. Does that make servant Gilgamesh a heroic spirit level?. It's simply how the grail works. Whoever has more mana provides more energy to the grail hence boosting Sakura. The grail controls servants and heroic spirits. Whoever has more resistance is able to bypass this eg, Gilgamesh.

Also, please, Sakura is not on the same level as heroic spirits. You are misunderstanding what the scan is saying. We've already explained it to you.

 

[Deagonx]

no, he isn't

Preposterous, counter guardians don't even have a proper establishment of power how does this even make sense. They get power depending on the scale of the threat to humanity, how would she be on the same level of something that doesn't have a fixed power but power that changes depending on the context. She has nothing no ability that's received from being in the same scale as counter guardians or anything that gets power from the counter force.

She can't Amp herself reactively
She doesn't get any amps reactively to adapt to threat to humanity nor the planet

She has absolutely no other scan supports her being on the same scale as counter guardians or anything that exists as an extension of the counter force, she is hardly true magic level which true ancestors who get power from the planet should be reactively at the very least.

I beg to differ. Regardless, this is straight from Fate/stay night, it can't be overturned because a reader finds it preposterous. It directly says she's on the level of pure Heroic Spirits, and that's my main point.

Why is he able to provide more energy than literal heroic spirits for the grail?

What are you talking about? The grail absorbs servants, not true heroic spirits. Gilgamesh provides more because he is an exceptionally powerful servant. This is said directly in the guide book:

Without a doubt, he is the strongest existence amongst the Servants.

This is a blatant evidence that Dark Sakura doesn't have to be necessarily superior or equal to heroic spirits in order for her to possess or absorb them. Even Gilgamesh is able to provide more mana to the grail than literal heroic spirits. Does that make servant Gilgamesh a heroic spirit level?. It's simply how the grail works. Whoever has more mana provides more energy to the grail hence boosting Sakura.

Also, please, Sakura is not on the same level as heroic spirits. You are misunderstanding what the scan is saying. We've already explained it to you.

"Heroic Spirits" is a phrase that is sometimes used for Servants, however, I am making the distinction between true/pure heroic spirits (in the Throne) and servants. The grail doesn't absorb true heroic spirits, none are present during the storyline so that interpretation makes very little sense, and the quote you just showed me uses the word "servants" regardless, so I have no idea why you are getting confused and thinking that the grail absorbs pure heroic spirits or that Gilgamesh was meant to provide more energy than one.

The scan is extremely explicit in equating Dark Sakura to a true heroic spirit. All you accomplish in claiming otherwise is attempting to directly contradict the VN.

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

You're hyperfixating on the phrase Counter Guardians, but that's only the second half of the sentence. It directly states: She's at the same level as pure heroic spirits which refers to the main bodies in the Throne of Heroes.

Do you know what preponderance is

Where did I get that? Well, you see, it was directly in the story.

You said she's on the level of counter Guardians after absorbing (this never happened btw), this is why you should read the type moon not the type sun.

Also what that is doing is explaining how when the holy grail gets the energy from servants it then becomes omnipotent, it doesn't correlate at all to sakura because she's not even the greater grail she was never a completed grail she was just an incomplete grail.

She's at the same level as pure heroic spirits which refers to the main bodies in the Throne of Heroes.

Just to make this clear, it's not talking about true Heroic Spirits Counter Guardians exist in the Throne of Heroes true Heroic spirits≠counter Guardians.

This is also circular reasoning, I already told you the preponderance is against you, you can't use something that's in question and assume it's true to verify what you're saying to be correct.

Prime example of begging the question, I put into question the validity of that statement because the preponderance against it is more than the preponderance supports it, what you just did is re-affirm your initial affirmation which has already been attacked.

The Holy Grail absorbs servants. Servants are fragments of a pure Heroic Spirits power. Once Sakura had absorbed enough Servants

Is anyone gonna tell her she never became a complete holy grail? She was an imitation of 3rd magic she never reached 3rd magic level.

I bet you didn't even know that when servants die they are immediately reverted back to their original essence (as true Heroic Spirits) that's the energy used to create a pathway to the root.

After Heroic Spirits were defeated in the physical world, they reverted to their original forms as "terminals of power" and vanished from this time axis.

This destroys your argument hinges on her having absorbed servants and becoming a greater grail (btw if you also didn't know cause you skim through the source material and don't read it), when the process is complete and the holy grail gets the power of the heroic spirits it transitions into a greater grail.

Guess what Sakura was never a greater grail wowzers, how could you be wrong in so many ways. I thought you atleast make an effort to read about what you constantly try to downplay but this is wild yikes.

The text is fairly explicit that Dark Sakura's power was equal to a being in the Throne of Heroes.

The text is pretty clearly not supporting what you're saying, she never completed the process to gain the power from the servants to begin with if she was she would've transitioned into a greater grail.

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

I beg to differ. Regardless, this is straight from Fate/stay night, it can't be overturned because a reader finds it preposterous.

It can be, hello? Two contradictory statements in source materials can be made

"Heroic Spirits" is a phrase that is sometimes used for Servants, however, I am making the distinction between true/pure heroic spirits (in the Throne) and servants

Sooob

Wait you know servants aren't the original essence of servants therefore you can't claim the statement is talking about servants because we know the original essence of servants is heroic spirits?
but one can be taken over the other one if it has more consistency???!

It directly says she's on the level of pure Heroic Spirits, and that's my main point.

Hey Chatgpt, you're begging the question you know that?

What are you talking about? The grail absorbs servants, not true heroic spirits. Gilgamesh provides more because he is an exceptionally powerful servant.

Because he's also reverted back to his original essence duhhh

The grail doesn't absorb true heroic spirits, none are present during the storyline so that interpretation makes very little sense, and the quote you just showed me uses the word "servants" regardless, so I have no idea why you are getting confused and thinking that the grail absorbs pure heroic spirits or that Gilgamesh was meant to provide more energy than one.

I always find it funny when there's a clash of interpretations and one person perfectly justifies their interpretation and you just assume your interpretation is self verifiably true without any justification at all.

For the last time heroic spirits aren't present it doesn't attack anything because they get reverted back to heroic spirits the moment the holy grail starts the process of absorbing them we even know the greater grail creates a pathway to the Throne of Heroes before creating another pathway to the root

 

[Deagonx]

Also what that is doing is explaining how when the holy grail gets the energy from servants it then becomes omnipotent, it doesn't correlate at all to sakura because she's not even the greater grail she was never a completed grail she was just an incomplete grail.

Sakura is the grail, in this instance. She is the one that absorbed these servants.

You said she's on the level of counter Guardians after absorbing (this never happened btw)

This is literally directly from the VN, saying that she is on the level of pure Heroic Spirits.

Is anyone gonna tell her she never became a complete holy grail? She was an imitation of 3rd magic she never reached 3rd magic level.

And yet, she was on the level of pure Heroic Spirits. Evidently she doesn't need to be a complete holy grail to reach that level.

This destroys your argument hinges on her having absorbed servants and becoming a greater grail

Guess what Sakura was never a greater grail wowzers, how could you be wrong in so many ways. I thought you atleast make an effort to read about what you constantly try to downplay but this is wild yikes.

I never said anything about her becoming a greater grail. I quoted the VN saying that she became as strong as pure Heroic Spirits.

Further, stop relying on insults. It's bad enough that you're engaging in a debate in this fashion, but it's particularly egregious given that you are apparently attempting to mock me for strawman versions of my argument, like claiming I said Sakura became a greater grail.

I bet you didn't even know that when servants die they are immediately reverted back to their original essence (as true Heroic Spirits) that's the energy used to create a pathway to the root.

When Servants die, they return to their original form as a fragment of power and then go to rejoin the main body in the Throne of Heroes. The Holy Grail steals these fragments of power, preventing that reunion. They don't "revert back" to true Heroic Spirits, they go to rejoin their main body.

The Holy Grail that appears in Fate/stay night is not the original, but rather a replica made to function as a “wish-granter.”
When Heroic Spirits are defeated, they return to their original forms as fragments of power and vanish from the time axis.
However, before that can happen the Einzbern Holy Grail intercepts and stores them until the ritual to open the “hole” can be enacted by the Great Holy Grail.

 

[Deagonx]

You're misinterpreting the process here quite a bit. When servants die, they don't turn into true Heroic Spirits and then get absorbed by the Grail. They revert to being a fragment of power and then exit the time axis to rejoin their main body in the Throne. Servants are only fragments of power from those true Heroic Spirits which reside in the Throne of Heroes. The Grail never absorbed a true heroic spirit, it absorbs fragments of their power, which are Servants.

The Einzbern Holy Grail (which Sakura was, when she was the shadow), intercepts these fragments before they leave the time axis (and return to the Throne to reunite with the true Heroic Spirit they emanated from) and stores them. The reason this is relevant to the CRT is that it shows that true Heroic Spirits are not infinitely more powerful than Servants, the difference in power is actually not that extreme. As Sakura shows, absorbing a single digit number of servants elevates one power to that a pure Heroic Spirit. This is all directly in the VN.

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

Sakura is the grail, in this instance. She is the one that absorbed these servants.

Didn't absorb an adequate amount of them

This is literally directly from the VN, saying that she is on the level of pure Heroic Spirits.

Im talking about her being equal to counter Guardians because she absorbed servants.. Uhhh??? When did they say it's because she absorbed servants

It doesn't matter it's irrelevant anyways

And yet, she was on the level of pure Heroic Spirits. Evidently she doesn't need to be a complete holy grail to reach that level.

Begging the question.

I never said anything about her becoming a greater grail. I quoted the VN saying that she became as strong as pure Heroic Spirits.

Begging the question

Further, stop relying on insults

Where did I insult you again?

like claiming I said Sakura became a greater grail.

Never said you said Sakura became the greater grail I said Sakura absorbing an adequate amount of servants entails she becomes the greater grail which she never did.

When Servants die, they return to their original form as a fragment of power and then go to rejoin the main body in the Throne of Heroes. The Holy Grail steals these fragments of power, preventing that reunion. They don't "revert back" to true Heroic Spirits, they go to rejoin their main body.

Yeah yeah, cooool but you know what them returning back to their main body doesn't denounce them reverting back to their original essence they can revert back to their original essence and still return to the Throne.

After Heroic Spirits were defeated in the physical world, they reverted to their original forms as "terminals of power" and vanished from this time axis.
The Einzbern Holy Grail was something that entrapped the Heroic Spirits and held them temporarily.
The ritual that opened the "hole" would then begin. This was not carried out by the Holy Grail, but the Greater Holy Grail.

Makes it clear they revert to their original forms when defeated but get entrapped and held temporarily but because we know they're already defeated they should still be reverted to their original forms but instead just entrapped.

You're misinterpreting the process here quite a bit. When servants die, they don't turn into true Heroic Spirits and then get absorbed by the Grail

That's what it says, not me.

They revert to being a fragment of power and then exit the time axis to rejoin their main body in the Throne

When they're defeated they would vanish from the time axis but because they get entrapped that doesn't happen but they immediately get reverted back to their original essence when defeated.

The materials say that not.

The Grail never absorbed a true heroic spirit, it absorbs fragments of their power, which are Servants.

That's what's in question as to whether that happens or not, assuming this is true despite being in question would be begging the question again.

The Einzbern Holy Grail (which Sakura was, when she was the shadow)

I have to restate that process never happened for Sakura therefore she's exempt from this, because once again if she had adequate energy she would've easily managed to become a greater grail.

absorbing a single digit number of servants elevates one power to that a pure Heroic Spirit

This was already addressed, you didn't attack anything when I presented you with how the preponderance against that outweighs the preponderance supporting that, your only response was "the statement is right there" which I had to explain again that contradictory statements need not be taken if statements against them are not consistently than them.

This is all directly in the VN.

That one inconsistent statement? Uh sure doesn't do anything

 

[Deagonx]

That's what's in question as to whether that happens or not, assuming this is true despite being in question would be begging the question again.

It's not in question, that's what is directly stated in the text.

The Holy Grail that appears in Fate/stay night is not the original, but rather a replica made to function as a “wish-granter.”
When Heroic Spirits are defeated, they return to their original forms as fragments of power and vanish from the time axis.
However, before that can happen the Einzbern Holy Grail intercepts and stores them until the ritual to open the “hole” can be enacted by the Great Holy Grail.

The "original forms" they return to is not "true Heroic Spirit" it is "fragment of power."

Begging the question.

That's what's stated in the VN.

I have to restate that process never happened for Sakura therefore she's exempt from this, because once again if she had adequate energy she would've easily managed to become a greater grail.

I can't tell you whether or not she had adequate energy to become a holy grail, I'm simply relaying what the text says, that at this point in the story (when she had absorbed a single digit number of servants) she had power equal to that of a true Heroic Spirit.

That one inconsistent statement? Uh sure doesn't do anything

You haven't demonstrated any inconsistencies, apparently it just makes you upset that Dark Sakura was canonically as powerful as a true Heroic Spirit in the Throne of Heroes by absorbing a few servants.