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Nasuverse CRT: For the Upper Tiers.

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Firestorm808 said:
Sorry. What do you mean by this?
Click to expand...
The script file of Melty Blood: Type Lumina contains commentary from Nasu. He mentioned that he will tell us about a battle between old Tsukihime (Len) and new Tsukihime:
NsmFiCs.png




/*-comment-
ＭＢvsＦateにしか見えないが、実は旧月姫（レン）vs月姫Ｒの戦いなのである
*/

/*-comment-
いつか、とっておきの時にお話しますので、
それまでお待ちください。
*/
\l
It only looks like MBvs Fate, but it's actually a battle between Old Tsukihime (Len) vs Tsukihime R.

I'll tell you about it someday, at a special time.
Please wait until then.

Months later, the story of Boss Rush 4 was released, and it teases Len as the next DLC character.
 
ShadowWhoWalks said:
The script file of Melty Blood: Type Lumina contains commentary from Nasu. He mentioned that he will tell us about a battle between old Tsukihime (Len) and new Tsukihime:
NsmFiCs.png




/*-comment-
ＭＢvsＦateにしか見えないが、実は旧月姫（レン）vs月姫Ｒの戦いなのである
*/

/*-comment-
いつか、とっておきの時にお話しますので、
それまでお待ちください。
*/
\l
It only looks like MBvs Fate, but it's actually a battle between Old Tsukihime (Len) vs Tsukihime R.

I'll tell you about it someday, at a special time.
Please wait until then.

Months later, the story of Boss Rush 4 was released, and it teases Len as the next DLC character.
Click to expand...

So it's not actually confirmed yet?
 
I don't get it, even if it isn't confirmed(it is), why should it matter? Everything is canon in Nasuverse.
 
I would recommend getting someone from the translation group to verify the translations for us.

For Reference:
人間の知覚、全能への道には果てがない。 どれほどの超越
者になろうと上には上がいる」


「たとえば埋葬機関にいつのまにか混ざっていたシスターです ね。彼女はサバトによって悪魔化し、 高次元の感覚を得た事で この次元では全能になったと言います。

ですが、そんな彼女ですらまだ物質に縛られている。この宇
宙に縛られている。
Click to expand...

Edit: "宙に縛られている。" = "(Tied/Bound) in/to the (space/air)." Not universe.

The statement is that she got "higher dimensional senses" and became "Omnipotent in this dimension."

Yes, the path to omnipotence is endless, but nothing implies that Kiara's "omnipotence" extends to countless other higher dimensions when we are only told that she became "Omnipotent in this dimension" specifically.

I don't think this supports one universe having, for lack of better words, countless higher dimensions.

@LephyrTheRevanchist
@Deagonx

What do you think?
 
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Firestorm808 said:
I would recommend getting someone from the translation group to verify the translations for us.



"宙に縛られている。" = "(Tied/Bound) in/to the (space/air)." Not universe.

The statement is that she got "higher dimensional senses" and became "Omnipotent in this dimension."

Yes, the path to omnipotence is endless, but nothing implies that Kiara's "omnipotence" extends to countless other higher dimensions when we are only told that she became "Omnipotent in this dimension" specifically.

I don't think this supports one universe having, for lack of better words, countless higher dimensions.

@LephyrTheRevanchist
@Deagonx

What do you think?
Click to expand...
The scan literally tells us that because she gained higher dimensional senses, she became omnipotent in the current dimension. Bur obviously, she isn't going to be omnipotent to the higher ones because as the scan stated, she was still bound to the universe/space which has no end in terms of transcendence. So if another being with another level of higher d existed, he would be omnipotent to Kiara's higher d but still be bound to the universe/space and this would keep on going and going and going which is why the scan claims there is no end to human perception and transcendence no matter what because they are endless.
 
Firestorm808 said:
I would recommend getting someone from the translation group to verify the translations for us.



"宙に縛られている。" = "(Tied/Bound) in/to the (space/air)." Not universe.

The statement is that she got "higher dimensional senses" and became "Omnipotent in this dimension."

Yes, the path to omnipotence is endless, but nothing implies that Kiara's "omnipotence" extends to countless other higher dimensions when we are only told that she became "Omnipotent in this dimension" specifically.

I don't think this supports one universe having, for lack of better words, countless higher dimensions.

@LephyrTheRevanchist
@Deagonx

What do you think?
Click to expand...
If i understand correctly nobody ever tell that Kiara "omnipotence" extend to other higher dimmensions.

Kiara description serve to show that the transcendance to higher level is about higher dimmension and not just some vague description of power and so the endless transcendance to higher level is about endless higher dimmension. Kiara is only in the begining (and already stoped bcz she feel to insignifiant)
 
Hate to be that blue-name who picks at an argument for a verse they are not 100% familiar with, but I wanted to mention this since it’s probably relevant to other verses as well.

Is a higher dimensional guy being omnipotent in comparison to a lower dimensional guy really enough to show an ontological difference between them…. ?
So like if X character in X dimension is omnipotent in comparison to Y character in Y dimension, it would hold the same weight as X character viewing Y character akin to fiction ?
 
catzlaflame said:
Hate to be that blue-name who picks at an argument for a verse they are not 100% familiar with, but I wanted to mention this since it’s probably relevant to other verses as well.

Is a higher dimensional guy being omnipotent in comparison to a lower dimensional guy really enough to show an ontological difference between them…. ?
So like if X character in X dimension is omnipotent in comparison to Y character in Y dimension, it would hold the same weight as X character viewing Y character akin to fiction ?
Click to expand...
The higher dimmension is already accepted in the verse, and kiara already accepted as one too (without this feat) it's why we talk about it
 
Regidian said:
The higher dimmension is already accepted in the verse, and kiara already accepted as one too (without this feat) it's why we talk about it
Click to expand...
Oh, didn’t know that stuff applied for this as well.

I agree with the OP in that case.
 
OCR is unneeded; the script is available here:

github.com

Tsukihime-Translation/script/Ciel/Day 15/15_01B_CIEL15B_1.txt at main · Tsukihimates/Tsukihime-Translation

Open source translation of Tsukihime -A Piece of Blue Glass Moon- prepared by Tsukihimates - Tsukihimates/Tsukihime-Translation
github.com github.com

So the quoted segment would be:
人間の知覚、全能への道には果てがない。どれほどの超越者になろうと上には上がいる」

「たとえば埋葬機関にいつのまにか混ざっていたシスターですね。彼女はサバトによって悪魔化し、高次元の感覚を得た事でこの次元では全能になったと言います。

ですが、そんな彼女ですらまだ物質に縛られている。この宇宙に縛られている。
 
Let's break down the situation in the following statements:
  • There are countless levels of transcendence to [true] omnipotence.
  • Kiara has "higher dimensional senses"
  • Kiara became "Omnipotent in this dimension."
  • Kiara "is still bound by her material form――still bound to this universe."
While we can derive the following:
  • Countless levels of transcendence < True Omnipotence
  • Kiara > "This Dimension" = 3-D
  • Kiara < Dimensionality of One Universe
We cannot derive the following:
  • Countless levels of transcendence < Dimensionality of One Universe < True Omnipotence
@LephyrTheRevanchist
@Deagonx
Thoughts?
 
Firestorm808 said:
Let's break down the situation in the following statements:
  • There are countless levels of transcendence to [true] omnipotence.
  • Kiara has "higher dimensional senses"
  • Kiara became "Omnipotent in this dimension."
  • Kiara "is still bound by her material form――still bound to this universe."
Click to expand...
You forgot the part where it says there's no end to perception as well.
She has higher d perception which automatically made her omnipotent to 3D. Since there's no end to it, even if she had 10000000000000 d perception, there would still be an higher level since no matter how transcendent you become, there is STILL an higher d level which is why she is still bound to the universe. Inf higher universe.
Firestorm808 said:
While we can derive the following:
  • Countless levels of transcendence < True Omnipotence
Click to expand...
There's no such thing as true omnipotence. It literally says there's no end to the path of omnipotence. Omnipotence, transcendence and perception are all stated to go on endlessly but would always have an higher level. Idk where you got countless transcendence<True Omnipotence. They are all one of the same.
Firestorm808 said:
  • Kiara > "This Dimension" = 3-D
Click to expand...
Kiara's higher d perception>3D. A random higher d person>Kiara's higher d perception. Ann hypothetical endless d person' perception>any d below. That's how it goes.
Firestorm808 said:
  • Kiara < Dimensionality of One Universe
Click to expand...
What do you mean by 1 universe? There's only one universe in the first place.
Firestorm808 said:
We cannot derive the following:
  • Countless levels of transcendence < Dimensionality of One Universe < True Omnipotence
Click to expand...
You missed the point based on the reasons I gave above.
 
Last edited:
Firestorm808 said:
Kiara "is still bound by her material form――still bound to this universe."
Click to expand...
"this universe"

That also has higher dimensions, whilst her herself she only gained higher dimensional senses. At the end of the day the higher dimensional beings they reference still only exist in "the universe", cause it doesn't make narrative sense for it to be outside of the universe which is practically Incomprehensible to anyone.

Especially roa, atleast gilles can discern a few properties of the things that exist outside of the universe not Roa.

Which we're taking his own knowledge into account and the limits of it.
Theoretical said:
The term universe is contextual based it could refer to the texture of humanity which was said to have only 3 vectors of space and 1 as a separate one hence 4D.

She obviously isn't beyond "the" the universe. The people who scale to it are Zeus and they started freaking out when Zeus was said to have the power to destroy so if wouldn't make sense for them to freak out when people like Kiara who are way below the scaling chain were to scale to that; I still question the validity of the Zeus claim tho.

This is pretty reasonable, but the hierarchy of higher dimensional beings can't apply to things outside of the universe, the outer universe was described as being beyond reasoning and how the laws of the universe are completely not applicable to it so presumably even the notion of higher dimensions.

This is why inhabitants of it like outer gods are also said to be above logic, can break logic and are said to be Incomprehensible even through Limitless wisdom
Click to expand...
Once again, wouldn't make sense narratively.

And when they say she's still bound to this universe, it is to say she's subjected to the idea that there'll always be a higher level. It's perfectly feasible considering "the universe" already has higher dimensions, that's why we have gods who are 6D existing in a higher dimensional plane the reverse side of the world, we have the moon cell having several higher dimensional planes Imaginary number of space, the core and the wall defending the core; all of these higher dimensions existing in "the universe" and are subsets of it. However outside of it its hard to discern such things existing because laws of physics usually don't apply outside of the universe and is regarded as beyond reasoning functioning under laws completely different from "the universe".

It's completely unreasonable to assume the hierarchy that's being mentioned applies for various reasons.

Firestorm808 said:
While we can derive the following:
  • Countless levels of transcendence < True Omnipotence
  • Kiara > "This Dimension" = 3-D
  • Kiara < Dimensionality of One Universe
We cannot derive the following:
  • Countless levels of transcendence < Dimensionality of One Universe < True Omnipotence
Click to expand...
I'd like to note that the nasuverse has never been demonstrated to work under universe^universe^universe, that's another reason why saying this is not even reasonable.

We only have texture of humanity=4D already confirmed. Assuming Kiara was a regular 3D being she gained atleast 4D senses or then she found out there were beings superior to her via them being genuine higher dimensional beings.

Then from there, there's never a mention of a 5th dimensional universe, so you can't say universe=4D, then we get another universe=5D.

The only time the 5th dimension was referenced in the Nasuverse was with one of the noble phantasms gilgamesh had which can reach up to the 5th dimension, but even that doesn't mean there exist a universe above the 4th dimensional universe/texture of humanity, it could be that because we have a 6 dimensional plane in the reverse side of the world the 5th dimensional one exists as subset of the 6th and the 6th dimension/reverse side of the world embeds itself on that 5th.

From there, there's no mention of the 7th at all, just a jump to the 8th, via the wall defending the core. Which means this interpretation has no narrative basis at all.

From the 8th we just have "the universe", which contains all of those dimensions higher snd lower ones.

And outside of that there can't exist such things and even if they did, Roa wouldn't know about it as per the nature of the outside world being beyond reasoning, logic and functioning under laws completely different from the universe.

I even one of the statements say everything about the laws of the universe including the known chain hierarchy of dimensions in the universe cannot be applied to the outer universe/outside of the universe.

Even says the universe is the world of intellect and outside is the opposite of that which supports the prior statements of it being beyond reasoning or whatnot.

Roa's statements do fall under intellect as he speaks from his own understanding of the universe and knowledge of it, that can't be applied to the outside of the universe considering he also barely knows how that works. Only gilles and da Vinci post gilles telling her but even with those explanations it's all left vague.

So for various reasons it cannot apply outside of the universe.
 
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Tdjwo said:
You forgot the part where it says there's no end to perception as well.
She has higher d perception which automatically made her omnipotent to 3D. Since there's no end to it, even if she had 10000000000000 d perception, there would still be an higher level since no matter how transcendent you become, there is STILL an higher d level which is why she is still bound to the universe. Inf higher universe.
Click to expand...
How did you derive:
  • Countless levels of transcendence < Dimensionality of One Universe
from:
  • "There is no upper bound to human perception――no end to the path toward omnipotence."
  • Kiara has "higher dimensional senses"
  • Kiara > 3-D
  • Kiara "is still bound by her material form――still bound to this universe."
There is no connection between them.
 
Last edited:
Deagonx said:
I share Firestorm and Lephyr's thoughts on the matter.
Click to expand...
Lephyr literally didn't say anything. And I pretty much debunked Firestorm so instead of just agreeing with them like I predicted you would, give your own reasoning as to why you agree with them.
Firestorm808 said:
How did you derive:
  • Countless levels of transcendence < Dimensionality of One Universe
    • from:
      • "There is no upper bound to human perception――no end to the path toward omnipotence."
      • Kiara has "higher dimensional senses"
      • Kiara > 3-D
      • Kiara "is still bound by her material form――still bound to this universe."
      • There is no connection between them.
Click to expand...
What are you even saying now?😒

The scan explicitly states that there are no limits to the path levels of transcendence and afterwards compared Kiara who has higher d senses as still being bound to the universe because of the limitless transcendence not affecting the ability to transcend the universe itself. How is it so hard to understand, Even non-staff members are able to grasp this correctly.
 
Tdjwo said:
Lephyr literally didn't say anything. And I pretty much debunked Firestorm so instead of just agreeing with them like I predicted you would, give your own reasoning as to why you agree with them.

What are you even saying now?😒

The scan explicitly states that there are no limits to the path levels of transcendence and afterwards compared Kiara who has higher d senses as still being bound to the universe because of the limitless transcendence not affecting the ability to transcend the universe itself. How is it so hard to understand, Even non-staff members are able to grasp this correctly.
Click to expand...
maybe chill out just the tiniest bit. the discussion just started, and everyone is explaining their views and coming to an understanding. no need to get heated yet
 
KingNanaya said:
maybe chill out just the tiniest bit. the discussion just started, and everyone is explaining their views and coming to an understanding. no need to get heated yet
Click to expand...
No that comment just reeks intentional ignorance and this isn''t the first time. It's happened on the mooncell crt as well. How can you see a statement that says there's no end to the levels of omnipotence, human perception and TRANSCENDENCE because THERE WOULD ALWAYS BE HIGHER LEVELS and afterwards compares Kiara, a being with a higher D sense STILL BOUND TO THE UNIVERSE because it doesn't matter what higher d stuff she has it would remain bound to the universe yet you still twist my words and what I'm implying. Maybe no one wants to speak out, but I'm going to say it. If you are a staff member and you intentionally ignore blatant details like this, which would in turn affect the verse or crt, then your position needs to be questioned. Especially when other staff members like Deagonx for example would just agree with the admin without any sort of elaboration. IT IS ANNOYING ASF.

Also, the discussion didn't just start. It's already 3 pages long and the majority agreed for blatant reasonings but the staff members are intentionally making it complicated for no good reason.
 
Tdjwo said:
No that comment just reeks intentional ignorance and this isn''t the first time. It's happened on the mooncell crt as well. How can you see a statement that says there's no end to the levels of omnipotence, human perception and TRANSCENDENCE because THERE WOULD ALWAYS BE HIGHER LEVELS and afterwards compares Kiara, a being with a higher D sense STILL BOUND TO THE UNIVERSE because it doesn't matter what higher d stuff she has it would remain bound to the universe yet you still twist my words and what I'm implying. Maybe no one wants to speak out, but I'm going to say it. If you are a staff member and you intentionally ignore blatant details like this, which would in turn affect the verse or crt, then your position needs to be questioned. Especially when other staff members like Deagonx for example would just agree with the admin without any sort of elaboration. IT IS ANNOYING ASF.
Click to expand...
I'm just trying to calm the waters here, because I know you're annoyed. I want this thread to go as civily as possible. I'm not saying to not be annoyed, just to take a bit to discuss this in a constructive way, so there are no future problems.
 
KingNanaya said:
I'm just trying to calm the waters here, because I know you're annoyed. I want this thread to go as civily as possible. I'm not saying to not be annoyed, just to take a bit to discuss this in a constructive way, so there are no future problems.
Click to expand...
Alright man. It's just frustrating how something as simple as ABC gets turned into AB=CB≠AC and I have to explain the same thing 50 times like I'm schooling someone. The mooncell crt was the exact same thing. The majority that agreed here werent blind when they gave their reasonings. Even those who usually disagreed with Nasuverse crt understood the legitimacy of this simple crt.
 
Tdjwo said:
Alright man. It's just frustrating how something as simple as ABC gets turned into AB=CB≠AC and I have to explain the same thing 50 times like I'm schooling someone. The mooncell crt was the exact same thing. The majority that agreed here werent blind when they gave their reasonings. Even those who usually disagreed with Nasuverse crt understood the legitimacy of this simple crt.
Click to expand...
trust me, I understand that it can be irritating to explain something that you believe to be knowledgeable in to someone who may or may not see it the way you do (I do this with my mom every once in a while). if you want to talk about how you feel about the other thread, let me know, we can talk about it.
 
Tdjwo said:
No that comment just reeks intentional ignorance and this isn''t the first time. It's happened on the mooncell crt as well. How can you see a statement that says there's no end to the levels of omnipotence, human perception and TRANSCENDENCE because THERE WOULD ALWAYS BE HIGHER LEVELS and afterwards compares Kiara, a being with a higher D sense STILL BOUND TO THE UNIVERSE because it doesn't matter what higher d stuff she has it would remain bound to the universe yet you still twist my words and what I'm implying. Maybe no one wants to speak out, but I'm going to say it. If you are a staff member and you intentionally ignore blatant details like this, which would in turn affect the verse or crt, then your position needs to be questioned. Especially when other staff members like Deagonx for example would just agree with the admin without any sort of elaboration. IT IS ANNOYING ASF.

Also, the discussion didn't just start. It's already 3 pages long and the majority agreed for blatant reasonings but the staff members are intentionally making it complicated for no good reason.
Click to expand...
Consider this an official warning to tone it down.

Learn to accept people can simply not agree with your conclusions. Period.
 
Alright, since it looks like some of us need extra help in comprehending this crt, I would perfectly break it down to the point any kid in a creche would fully understand.

Roa claims that there's NO END to HUMAN PERCEPTION and NO END TO THE PATH TO OMNIPOTENCE. He then further makes it freakin' clear that NO MATTER HOW TRANSCENDENT SOMEONE BECOMES, THERE IS ALWAYS A HIGHER LEVEL.
1eA72D4.jpeg


Now the bolded and capitalized parts are the most critical parts of the scan.
  1. NO END- simply means endless. That should be common knowledge.
  2. HUMAN PERCEPTION- simply means perception. How we perceive or sense things.
  3. PATH TO OMNIPOTENCE- Omnipotence means the ability to do anything. "Path" literally means the way or direction to something. In this context, Omnipotence is restricted to the levels of dimensions, which means someone with a Higher D has a higher level of omnipotence than someone with a lower D. And the levels of it are also ENDLESS as it says in the scan; NO END TO THE PATH TO OMNIPOTENCE.
  4. NO MATTER HOW TRANSCENDENT SOMEONE BECOMES, THERE IS ALWAYS A HIGHER LEVEL- This, this is literally what makes it 100% clear that it's an endless hierarchy because it explicitly states that no matter how "Transcendent" someone becomes, there would always be an higher level. That's an endless hierarchy right there.
Now, the OP already suspected some people would always pull the "how do you know it was referring to higher dimensions or how does it tie in with a structure that exists in the verse" card and fortunately for them, the scan afterwards gave a very perfect example. It makes an example out of Kiara, who had higher dimensional senses, which ties in with "human perception having no ends" and how she was "omnipotent to 3D" which ties in with "omnipotence having no ends". But despite having does abilitities, she was still bound to the universe itself.
D0wtXTF.jpeg

SyVv2EG.jpeg


That means the reason there's no end to omnipotence, and human perception, no matter how transcendent someone became was because the Universe itself housed endless amounts of higher D's which is why someone like Kiara was still bound to the universe. This means even if Kiara kept on transcending higher D's endlessly, she would STILL be bound to the universe as there is no end to transcendence and there would always be an higher level. So in order for her to successfully surpass the universe, she has to be at least Low 1A. That is why the Universe is tiered at High 1B.

See? Isn't that so simple to comprehend? Literally so simple. It ties in with the wiki's description of High 1B.

High 1-B: High Hyperverse level​

Characters or objects that can universally affect, create and/or destroy structures whose size is equivalent to a countably infinite number of qualitative sizes above a universal model, usually represented in fiction by endless hierarchies of layers of existence, each succeeding one completely trivializing the previous into insignificance, or more generally a space with countably infinite dimensions.
Click to expand...
 
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