Naruto Part II Revisions (Multipliers/Calculations)

[KingTempest]

So basically Base Naruto ~ Base Sakura ~ Sasori > Deidara > Gaara > City+

Some is right, but some is wrong.

Strength isn't always AP (everyone has said that already).

If Naruto scaled to Sakura who hurt Sasori (Damage already said what's wrong about scaling to Sasori's dura in the beginning, I remember that much) then KN0 Naruto should scale above them.
Bloodlusted KNO couldn't even break Sasori's tail with a shuriken. That has issues w/ the scaling since Sakura could violate the same thing.

Sakura was getting cut by the iron sand, or the puppet's AP. Same Sakura demolished the puppet, showing that Newton's law doesn't apply for Sasori's attacks. Sakura couldn't even damage Sasori, she just separated him into pieces.
Dura ≥ AP is weird in the Narutoverse in general, showed how Sakura focuses her chakra for attacking instead of defending.

Weren't they all (Kakashi, Naruto, Neji, Guy, Tenten, Sakura, Chiyo, Lee) about to die from Deidara's bomb?

With the scaling off Gaara calc and such, there's a huge issue.
Gaara gets City Level+ AP for the sum of all the sand, or the force of all the sand doing the work, proven by how he calculated the volume of 6 cones and 2 prisms. Calc looks right, math is good, all of that.

Why would Deidara get comparable AP to all of the sand (398,209,369.2m3 to be exact) for not even damaging 100 m3 of it? Would he get comparable AP for damaging small portions of it?

 

[Damage3245]

The scaling for Deidara's explosives that knocked out Gaara to be 7-A doesn't make sense to me. If you calc any of his exposives, even his massive C3 explosive or his dragon explosive, the result you'd get would be consistently way lower. I doubt even his C3 would get City level results.

But these tiny insect-shaped explosives are 7-A? There needs to be a good reason to scale them to that, and Gaara lifting up a portion of the desert with 7-B+ force is not that.

 

[LordTracer]

If Naruto scaled to Sakura who hurt Sasori (Damage already said what's wrong about scaling to Sasori's dura in the beginning, I remember that much) then KN0 Naruto should scale above them.
Bloodlusted KNO couldn't even break Sasori's tail with a shuriken. That has issues w/ the scaling since Sakura could violate the same thing.

I’m almost 100% sure we don’t scale weapons like shuriken and kunai to the characters’ AP.

Sakura was getting cut by the iron sand, or the puppet's AP. Same Sakura demolished the puppet, showing that Newton's law doesn't apply for Sasori's attacks. Sakura couldn't even damage Sasori, she just separated him into pieces.

Those cuts are extremely shallow, so clearly the Iron Sand wasn’t doing that much damage to her. And separating something into pieces like that is damage, going by the actual definition of the word. Also she caused Sasori’s cheek to crack by punching it. She might not have hurt him, but she did damage him.

Strength isn't always AP (everyone has said that already).

We already debated the statement of Sasori being stronger than Deidara extensively. There is no room whatsoever in that statement for Deidara to mean something like skill, deadliness, etc, it requires way more assumptions to come to any of those conclusions.

Dura ≥ AP is weird in the Narutoverse in general, showed how Sakura focuses her chakra for attacking instead of defending.

She’s doing that specifically because they have a short timeframe, which she says.

Weren't they all (Kakashi, Naruto, Neji, Guy, Tenten, Sakura, Chiyo, Lee) about to die from Deidara's bomb?

Deidara’s bombs vary. His clay clone self-destructing =/= his basic, most commonly used C1 (which is what Sasori is scaling above).

Why would Deidara get comparable AP to all of the sand (398,209,369.2m3 to be exact) for not even damaging 100 m3 of it? Would he get comparable AP for damaging small portions of it?

Gaara’s attacking and defending sand (including his sand armor) is superior to that desert sand. Deidara (while implied to be holding back) one-shot Gaara, despite his sand armor, that is stated to be special and have enormous amounts of chakra poured into it compared to the random sand from the desert.

 

[Damage3245]

> Gaara’s attacking and defending sand (including his sand armor) is superior to that desert sand.

Where's your proof?

 

[LordTracer]

> Gaara’s attacking and defending sand (including his sand armor) is superior to that desert sand.

Where's your proof?

I swear I’ve already given the scan for this... Gaara’s attacking sand and defensive sand has massive amounts of chakra poured into it, making it special in comparison to the ordinary desert sand. Chakra infused sand > normal sand.

 

[KingTempest]

Gaara’s attacking and defending sand (including his sand armor) is superior to that desert sand. Deidara (while implied to be holding back) one-shot Gaara, despite his sand armor, that is stated to be special and have enormous amounts of chakra poured into it compared to the random sand from the desert.

The material of sand being superior is not the same as the AP. It's like saying Naruto has a tiny rasengan with Kurama's chakra, then an ultra big ball rasengan with his regular chakra, and since Kurama's chakra is stronger, it means that that tiny Kurama rasengan > the huge regular one.

I agree 100% that the sand is stronger, but I wouldn't compare a gourd of strong sand to at least a city block of regular sand.

 

[LordTracer]

The material of sand being superior is not the same as the AP. It's like saying Naruto has a tiny rasengan with Kurama's chakra, then an ultra big ball rasengan with his regular chakra, and since Kurama's chakra is stronger, it means that that tiny Kurama rasengan > the huge regular one.

I mean... it would be. Like (I know Naruto can’t use the UBB Rasengan in Part I, but for the sake of the example) base Naruto in Part I is 8-B. Naruto in Part I with Kurama’s chakra is 7-C. So yeah, the tiny Kyuubi chakra Rasengan would be stronger than the base UBB Rasengan. It’d be vastly stronger.

 

[Damage3245]

I swear I’ve already given the scan for this... Gaara’s attacking sand and defensive sand has massive amounts of chakra poured into it, making it special in comparison to the ordinary desert sand. Chakra infused sand > normal sand.

Yes... a certain amount of "special sand" is superior to a certain amount of conventional sand - but I'm talking about why would it scale to his 7-B+ feat?

Let's also not forget that the 7-B+ feat is an AP calc... not a durability calc.

 

[LordTracer]

Yes... a certain amount of "special sand" is superior to a certain amount of conventional sand - but I'm talking about why would it scale to his 7-B+ feat?

Because Deidara is blatantly comparing it to the 7-B+ feat. That’s the (quoted directly from him) “ordinary sand he lifted from the desert.”

 

[Damage3245]

Because Deidara is blatantly comparing it to the 7-B+ feat. That’s the (quoted directly from him) “ordinary sand he lifted from the desert.”

Sorry, I don't see the scaling there at all. He's not saying "his attacks with that sand > the force of all the sand he's lifted from the desert" or "his sand shields with that sand are more durable than all of the sand he lifted from the desert".

There's no connection between the durability of that shield and Gaara's 7-B+ feat.

EDIT: We need more staff input on this. I'll jump back on this tomorrow.

 

[LordTracer]

Sorry, I don't see the scaling there at all. He's not saying "his attacks with that sand > the force of all the sand he's lifted from the desert" or "his sand shields with that sand are more durable than all of the sand he lifted from the desert".

There's no connection between the durability of that shield and Gaara's 7-B+ feat.

There’s no way you don’t see it. As quoted from Deidara;

“Hmm... that sand that crushed my arm and protects him... is different from the ordinary sand he lifted from the desert. He always carries a set amount of sand in his gourd... into which he pours an enormous amount of chakra, making a special kind of sand. If that’s the sand he uses for his lightning fast attacks... as well as his absolute defense... then the missing portion from that hole is what crushed my arm.”

Deidara is directly referencing the sand Gaara used in the 7-B+ calc and then comparing that to the sand in his gourd, which he uses for both offense and defense.

 

[KingTempest]

Tracer you aren't understanding me and Damage's point.

We're arguing quality vs quantity. You're arguing x > 398,209,369.2y from a misinterpreted statement.

I sincerely doubt that Deidara meant "this small sand in his gourd is much stronger than every grain of sand in that desert". He's referring to the material, as he talks about it's speed as well.

Unless Deidara says "this sand is stronger than the combined force of all the sand he used in the desert", it wouldn't work.

If all of Gaara's sand is compressed into the size of a fist, then all the sand that Gaara used in that one attack is compressed into the same size, would they still have the same potency?

Not even including that Deidara doesn't scale to his strong sand in the first place, and he needed to cheat and directly hit Gaara to even do anything, but I digress.

 

[LordTracer]

We're arguing quality vs quantity. You're arguing x > 398,209,369.2y from a misinterpreted statement.

I sincerely doubt that Deidara meant "this small sand in his gourd is much stronger than every grain of sand in that desert". He's referring to the material, as he talks about it's speed as well.

Unless Deidara says "this sand is stronger than the combined force of all the sand he used in the desert", it wouldn't work.

Except he literally says that the sand Gaara uses for offense/defense is special compared to the sand he used in the 7-B+ calc, and both of you have agreed that Gaara’s chakra infused sand is stronger than the random desert sand. Size does not matter here. Going back to your example of base Naruto v. Kyuubi chakra Naruto. It’s 8-B v. 7-C, the size of attacks isn’t bridging that gap.

Not even including that Deidara doesn't scale to his strong sand in the first place, and he needed to cheat and directly hit Gaara to even do anything, but I digress.

He absolutely does scale. He (while arguably holding back) one-shot Gaara, through the sand armor, so yes, he does scale. Also I don’t see how tricking your opponent is “cheating,” but that doesn’t really matter.

If all of Gaara's sand is compressed into the size of a fist, then all the sand that Gaara used in that one attack is compressed into the same size, would they still have the same potency?

The attacks wouldn’t have the same potency as each other, no. Because again, chakra infused sand > ordinary desert sand. You’re trying to argue quantity > quality.

 

[BlackeJan]

Literally nobody said that BM would be 6-C. KCM2 would be 6-C, and the Kurama Avatar/BM would still be High 6-C, up to Low 6-B.

That’s what I mean. Why would BM (that’s me saying KCM2) be 6C? He should be High 6C in general

 

[LordTracer]

That’s what I mean. Why would BM (that’s me saying KCM2) be 6C? He should be High 6C in general

Because we’re differentiating the tiers of him with and without the Kurama Avatar.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I feel like there's a lot of AOE vs. AP arguments here, and I'm not sure why.

So are you guys saying that Gaara's sand has no AP, and it's all about the amount of sand he manipulates? Because that is absolutely ridiculous imo.

For example, we had Kage Gaara block attacks from Madara's Susano'o with his sand, and it really wasn't such a large amount. So, if Part I Gaara manipulates the same amount of sand (and we know that he can manipulate WAY more given his feats of creating a Sand avatar of Shukaku and his Sand Tsunami against Kimimaro) would he be able to block Madara as well? Like c'mon now......
AOE and DC sometimes just takes a backseat to AP and scaling. We know that he manipulates sand through infusing it with chakra, so it stands to reason that the sand with MORE chakra infused to it would have higher AP. It's that simple.

 

[Damage3245]

Being superior to the sand =/= being superior to the 7-B+ calc. It's a completely different scale.

 

[LordTracer]

Being superior to the sand =/= being superior to the 7-B+ calc. It's a completely different scale.

Damage, Deidara is blatantly comparing it to the 7-B+ calc. That is the “ordinary sand he lifted from the desert.”

 

[KingTempest]

Except he literally says that the sand Gaara uses for offense/defense is special compared to the sand he used in the 7-B+ calc, and both of you have agreed that Gaara’s chakra infused sand is stronger than the random desert sand. Size does not matter here. Going back to your example of base Naruto v. Kyuubi chakra Naruto. It’s 8-B v. 7-C, the size of attacks isn’t bridging that gap.

We agreed the sand is stronger, saying it has better quality. We did not agree that the quality of a gourd of special sand > a desert. I really don't care about scaling terms, because that's in the form of the character, not the actual attack.
Attack Potency is mainly from Joules which is a 1:1 to Newtons. Newtons is mass times acceleration. Mass has an astronomical difference, especially when it's a desert vs a backpack.

He absolutely does scale. He (while arguably holding back) one-shot Gaara, through the sand armor, so yes, he does scale. Also I don’t see how tricking your opponent is “cheating,” but that doesn’t really matter.

Because he damaged Gaara and not the sand. Quantity, which you're dodging for some reason, matters. If quantity didn't matter, then a regular rasengan = ultra big ball rasengan. Sand armor < Sand shield (via Kankuro's words) because of quantity.

The attacks wouldn’t have the same potency as each other, no. Because again, chakra infused sand > ordinary desert sand. You’re trying to argue quantity > quality.

I'm not saying quantity > quality, I'm saying that Deidara did not say the quality of Gaara's sand > the quantity of the desert.
Let's say Kisame had special water which is stronger than regular water.
If I drop all the oceans on your head, is it weaker than Kisame's bucket of water just because the type of water is weaker?

 

[Damage3245]

Damage, Deidara is blatantly comparing it to the 7-B+ calc. That is the “ordinary sand he lifted from the desert.”

He's not comparing it to the calc, he's comparing it to the sand itself.

 

[LordTracer]

He's not comparing it to the calc, he's comparing it to the sand itself.

Yes, the sand that performed the calc.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Being superior to the sand =/= being superior to the 7-B+ calc. It's a completely different scale.

How do you think he achieved said 7-B+ calc? Telekinesis? I mean he literally just infuses chakra into some sand, unless I'm like totally off about how he achieves his Sand manipulation.

 

[KingTempest]

@UchihaSlayer96 that's not what we're talking about.
Me and Damage are saying even though the type of sand is stronger, the force of the desert > small amount of special sand.
Tracer is saying Deidara said that the quality of the small sand in a backpack > the quantity of a forest.

Tracer quick question.
Do you believe Sand Shuriken is stronger than Quicksand Waterfall Flow just because of the quality of the sand being used?

 

[LordTracer]

We agreed the sand is stronger, saying it has better quality. We did not agree that the quality of a gourd of special sand > a desert. I really don't care about scaling terms, because that's in the form of the character, not the actual attack.
Attack Potency is mainly from Joules which is a 1:1 to Newtons. Newtons is mass times acceleration. Mass has an astronomical difference, especially when it's a desert vs a backpack.

The calc is not the entire desert so...

Because he damaged Gaara and not the sand. Quantity, which you're dodging for some reason, matters. If quantity didn't matter, then a regular rasengan = ultra big ball rasengan. Sand armor < Sand shield (via Kankuro's words) because of quantity.

According to the wiki, which is citing the Third Databook as its evidence, the Big Ball Rasengan is stronger NOT because ”well it’s bigger so obviously it’s stronger,” it’s because there’s more chakra in it. So Gaara’s sand with a massive amount of chakra in it would be superior to sand with no chakra in it. Please show me where Kankurō said the sand shield is stronger solely because there’s more sand in it. I’d love to see that.

I'm not saying quantity > quality, I'm saying that Deidara did not say the quality of Gaara's sand > the quantity of the desert.
Let's say Kisame had special water which is stronger than regular water.
If I drop all the oceans on your head, is it weaker than Kisame's bucket of water just because the type of water is weaker?

The calc isn’t even the quantity of the desert, where are y’all getting that it’s all the sand in the desert? It’s a portion of the sand in the desert. Deidara, directly referencing the feat that resulted in the 7-B+ calc, said the chakra infused sand in Gaara’s gourd is special in comparison. So yeah, the quality of Gaara’s gourd sand > the quality of random desert sand with no chakra in it.

That would depend on AP and Kisame’s AP varies so that’s not a very good example.

 

[LordTracer]

Tracer quick question.
Do you believe Sand Shuriken is stronger than Quicksand Waterfall Flow just because of the quality of the sand being used?

Dude, the literal first sentence of the Quicksand Waterfall Flow page is “using his personal sand.” Not the same situation at all.

 

[Damage3245]

Nobody is disputing that the quality of Gaara's personal sand > random desert sand.

You seem to be fundamentally misunderstanding our issue, though Tempest has explained it quite well.

It's like saying that a Fire Release spell that incinerates an entire country must be weaker than a tiny Amaterasu, just because the Amaterasu is more special.

 

[LordTracer]

It's like saying that a Fire Release spell that incinerates an entire country must be weaker than a tiny Amaterasu, just because the Amaterasu is more special.

That’s not the same. At all. You are comparing two things with CHAKRA. Deidara was comparing something WITH CHAKRA to something WITHOUT CHAKRA.

 

[KingTempest]

Dude, the literal first sentence of the Quicksand Waterfall Flow page is “using his personal sand.” Not the same situation at all.

That's how I know you're digging for whatever fits you.
Using his personal sand, Gaara grinds up rocks and minerals underground into a huge volume of sand that he brings above ground.
He uses his abnormal sand to bring up the regular one.

The calc is not the entire desert so...

You know what I meant.

According to the wiki, which is citing the Third Databook as its evidence, the Big Ball Rasengan is stronger NOT because ”well it’s bigger so obviously it’s stronger,” it’s because there’s more chakra in it. So Gaara’s sand with a massive amount of chakra in it would be superior to sand with no chakra in it. Please show me where Kankurō said the sand shield is stronger solely because there’s more sand in it. I’d love to see that.

I'm gonna stop using Naruto abilities since you keep throwing databook and AP to refute my argument about logic.

The calc isn’t even the quantity of the desert, where are y’all getting that it’s all the sand in the desert? It’s a portion of the sand in the desert. Deidara, directly referencing the feat that resulted in the 7-B+ calc, said the chakra infused sand in Gaara’s gourd is special in comparison. So yeah, the quality of Gaara’s gourd sand > the quality of random desert sand with no chakra in it.

Tracer, our argument is not based on "all the sand in the desert" even though we (only I) keep saying it. I'm referring to the large amount.

That would depend on AP and Kisame’s AP varies so that’s not a very good example.

Better question since I deadass forgot I'm debating powerscalers who use AP in science class.

If x > y right, do you think that automatically means that 2x > 100,000,000,000,000y?

Honestly, I'm just gonna wait for more staff input. Damage and I are explaining it, but you're purposely only looking at 1 interpretation, and I know that even if Kishimoto comes to you and explains that's not what he meant, you'd say no.

 

[LordTracer]

Better question since I deadass forgot I'm debating powerscalers who use AP in science class.

We are literally discussing character AP right now, or did you forget that?

If x > y right, do you think that automatically means that 2x > 100,000,000,000,000y?

Even in you put this in a math context, it depends on what X is and what Y is.

Honestly, I'm just gonna wait for more staff input. Damage and I are explaining it, but you're purposely only looking at 1 interpretation, and I know that even if Kishimoto comes to you and explains that's not what he meant, you'd say no.

Assuming motive, okay, rude, uncalled for, and doesn’t make you look any better.

Tracer, our argument is not based on "all the sand in the desert" even though we (only I) keep saying it. I'm referring to the large amount.

Which does not matter, for the reasons I’ve already discussed and even using the example you gave.

I'm gonna stop using Naruto abilities since you keep throwing databook and AP to refute my argument about logic.

This. Discussion. Is. About. Gaara’s. AP. You’re the one that brought up the example of a base UBB Rasengan v. Kyuubi chakra Rasengan in the first place.

That's how I know you're digging for whatever fits you.
Using his personal sand, Gaara grinds up rocks and minerals underground into a huge volume of sand that he brings above ground.
He uses his abnormal sand to bring up the regular one.

Then to answer your question, yes Sand Shuriken would be more powerful considering that Gaara uses it in his Partial Transformation self, which is more powerful than his base form that uses Quicksand Waterfall Flow. As stated on the page you linked, the Sand Shuriken are created from the sand that makes up Gaara’s PT arms, which would then make it more powerful than his base techniques. Compare two of Gaara’s base techniques, and then you might have a point.

And don’t complain about me bringing up AP when this entire discussion is about Gaara’s AP. The fact that you’re complaining about AP being brought up in a discussion about AP is strange, to say the least.

 

[Metalija]

Heres the thing though, 7-B+ is not the AP or the dura of the desert sand, its the amount of kinetic energy that it produces while moving (at a pretty low speed).

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I don't understand what the Issue here is. I thought Tracer was pretty clear.

 

[BlastX]

It's a good thing the threads in this new forum can have unlimited post or else we are about to enter the third thread by now

 

[LordTracer]

Also off topic, but Naruto seemed to have some form of awareness of what was going on while he was in his KN6-KN8 state. (Look from Page 8 to Page 13/14). So his statement of KCM being stronger than he was against Pain should include those forms. Plus he actually has control in KCM, which he doesn’t in the KN forms, which could further support KCM being stronger than KN6-KN8.

 

[LordTracer]

Y’know what, I don’t really care if y’all don’t scale people to Gaara’s 7-B+ calc and say Gaara can just manipulate ordinary sand to be stronger than everyone.

But you’re gonna have to figure out what to scale the BoS characters to in that case.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

@LordTracer Do these calcs have no use for the current scaling?

• Nagato's Ninja Art: Rain Tiger at Will 2.22 Megatons (Small City level)
• Jiraiya's Chou Oodama Rasengan 18.40 Megatons (City level)

 

[LordTracer]

@LordTracer Do these calcs have no use for the current scaling?

• Nagato's Ninja Art: Rain Tiger at Will 2.22 Megatons (Small City level)
• Jiraiya's Chou Oodama Rasengan 18.40 Megatons (City level)

I mean, they could be used. For Pain, I guess that’d change his tier to 7-B to High 7-A, although Kakashi and Base Naruto would scale to the 7-B and that comes from Sage Jiraiya so... that’s kinda weird.

Also I dunno if I’m missing something, but the Pain calc has a 13.5 megaton/City level value given in the results but the verse page says 2.22 megatons/Small City level.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Also I dunno if I’m missing something, but the Pain calc has a 13.5 megaton/City level value given in the results but the verse page says 2.22 megatons/Small City level.

Just noticed and now I'm wondering where the Low 7-B value comes from?

 

[LordTracer]

Just noticed and now I'm wondering where the Low 7-B value comes from?

The calc gives a Low 7-B value, but the numbers used (until the math that gives Low 7-B) are identical to the ones that ended with the 7-B value. So something’s off here.

 

[Damage3245]

Just noticed and now I'm wondering where the Low 7-B value comes from?

It might be that the calc was updated at some point without updating the verse page.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

@LordTracer Do these calcs have no use for the current scaling?

• Nagato's Ninja Art: Rain Tiger at Will 2.22 Megatons (Small City level)
• Jiraiya's Chou Oodama Rasengan 18.40 Megatons (City level)

I don't think Jiraiya's feat directly scales to anyone else, except some of the Pains.
I guess you could argue it scales to Kakashi, because he managed to harm the Asura path (who ripped off Jiraiya's arm).