DxD Issei AP Revision 2

[MasqueTLDF]

Hey, back again with another CRT, this time covering the Volume 2-4 Key of Issei's new profile sandbox. Again, we'll only be covering AP. I'll briefly explain the reasoning for the tiers in this post but for more detailed explanations, sources, and images, go here. (The only necessary part for this thread is the Volume 2, up to Volume 4 sections.)

Spoiler: Boost

Issei Hyoudou's main ability which allows him to double his power as many times as his gauntlet makes the "BOOST" sound. Example: Base * 2 * 2 * 2 (Power gained from this ability is temporary.)

Volume 2 Base Issei: Small City Level (1.1973627210693359375 Megatons)
Reasoning: Downscales from a feat where he had 12 Boosts (2^12xBase)
Volume 2 12 Boosts Issei: Island Level (4.9043977055 Gigatons)
Reasoning: Vaporized a Mountain using his Dragon Shot. (First link is proving it's vaporization, second link is the calc for the feat.)
Volume 2 18 Boosts Issei and BxB Issei: Large Island Level (313.881453152 Gigatons)
Reasoning: 18 Boosts Issei is 6 Boosts (x2s) greater in strength than the one that performed the mountain feat and BxB scales above 18 Boosts Issei as it's states to be his peak at that time.

Volume 4 BxB Issei w/Max Boosts + Outrage: Likely Small Planet Level (19.25872251584764801746347883495424 Zettatons)

Spoiler: Reasoning

Volume 2 Issei with 12 Boosts was comparable to Base Rias, in Volume 3, Rias in her Ruin Princess form along with Akeno were empowered by two of Issei's Boosts. (Issei can transfer the multiplier to others.) But when the ability affects two people, the strength of the multiplier gets reduced to 70% of its original effectiveness. (Meaning that Rias' amp from the Boosts was 2.8x, however, it was stated that her current power output was over 10x her base, meaning that the rest of the total multiplier came from her RP form. (3.57142857143x)

Later, while using RP, she gets amped by 19 Bossts and is "a few" (at least 3) Boosts away from reaching the level of Kokabiel. Kokabiel is relative to base Azazel who should also be relative to Vali because the Scale Mail BxB Multiplier (at least 18 of Issei's Boosts [2^18x]) should be the same betwen all users as it's the same ability, ans the two are relative in BxB. Meaning BxB Vali, who Max Power V4 Issei beat would be Small Planet Level.

Again, more detailed explanation for this can be found in the Volume 3/4 sections of the first linked thread of the post, but it's essentially V2 12 boosts Issei x 3.57142857143 x 2^19 x 3 x 2^18.

If there're any questions about the consistency or accuracy of the multiplier of the Boosts (or anything else), please feel free to read the earliest linked blog.

Spoiler: When I'll apply these updates.

When the rest of the threads are done.

Thanks for reading
Agree: DarkDragonMedeus, Dragongod224, LephyrTheRevanchist, TotalMasterInfinity (Everything else)
Neutral: Planck69
Disagree: TotalMasterInfinity (Vali strength)

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looks alright.

 

[Dragongod224]

Looks fine to me

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Bumparooni

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I suppose it's fine, but I'm worried if the AP values reached through the boosts is properly supported. That is one of our requirements for accepting multipliers:

However, a good statement alone is not enough to get a high multiplier accepted. The amount of extra evidence one has to provide to get larger multipliers accepted is proportional to the size of the multiplier. For lower multipliers, like things much less than times 100, evidence can take the form of a clear increase in combat strength against priorly equal or superior opponents. For higher multipliers, like times 100 and above, the importance of stronger evidence, such as feats displaying power of a similar magnitude as the value the multiplier points to or the multipliers importance to the plot of the story, and a higher amount of evidence becomes increasingly necessary.

Like, through multipliers, Low 5-B levels of power got reached in these volumes. Are there feats of planetary scale (or at the very least, multi-continental effects) shown?

The form that's argued as scaling (BxB with Outrage and x47 boosts) does mention some environmental effects like blowing away clouds, but this can be achieved with comparatively lower tiers depending how high they were (assuming the clouds cover the entire horizon), though narration mentions how even distant trees got blown away by the thrust of a finger.

Basically, I'm concerned if these high tiers are consistent in the narrative to warrant acceptance of these multipliers stacking. Nevertheless, the boosts at the very least do seem fine by themselves as proper doubling of power.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

I suppose it's fine, but I'm worried if the AP values reached through the boosts is properly supported. That is one of our requirements for accepting multipliers:


Like, through multipliers, Low 5-B levels of power got reached in these volumes. Are there feats of planetary scale (or at the very least, multi-continental effects) shown?

The form that's argued as scaling (BxB with Outrage and x47 boosts) does mention some environmental effects like blowing away clouds, but this can be achieved with comparatively lower tiers depending how high they were (assuming the clouds cover the entire horizon), though narration mentions how even distant trees got blown away by the thrust of a finger.

Basically, I'm concerned if these high tiers are consistent in the narrative to warrant acceptance of these multipliers stacking. Nevertheless, the boosts at the very least do seem fine by themselves as proper doubling of power.

Admittedly, there's definitely a lack of DC feats around that level, however, I believe that this is a case of Quanity>Quality. There aren't many direct DC feats, however there are an overabundance of statements that make up the difference. I believe that this, along with the absence of anti-feats back the scaling up. (Plus, given the context of the story, [the characters avoid using large scale attacks purposely to avoid exposing the supernatural to humans and to avoid damaging the Earth] the absence of those feats make sense within the confines of the story.

As for consistency within the narrative, like previously stated, it's the main ability of the MC and is used thousands of times by various characters in the series (also the reason for many characters winning most of their fights when used). And the requirement states that either feats or importance are required, and this is an instance of the latter.

However, a good statement alone is not enough to get a high multiplier accepted. The amount of extra evidence one has to provide to get larger multipliers accepted is proportional to the size of the multiplier. For lower multipliers, like things much less than times 100, evidence can take the form of a clear increase in combat strength against priorly equal or superior opponents. For higher multipliers, like times 100 and above, the importance of stronger evidence, such as feats displaying power of a similar magnitude as the value the multiplier points to or the multipliers importance to the plot of the story, and a higher amount of evidence becomes increasingly necessary.

And there's not really anything that calls into question the consistency of the multiplier itself. It remains pretty consistent throughout the series.
Aside from that, what's your current stance? I'm a bit unclear on that.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

As for consistency within the narrative, like previously stated, it's the main ability of the MC and is used thousands of times by various characters in the series (also the reason for many characters winning most of their fights when used). And the requirement states that either feats or importance are required, and this is an instance of the latter.

And there's not really anything that calls into question the consistency of the multiplier itself. It remains pretty consistent throughout the series.

I do not question the legitimacy of the multiplier, I was quite direct at that. I question if the stacking is actually supported through proper feats. Which you have elaborated that it's not (at least in explicit matter).

Aside from that, what's your current stance? I'm a bit unclear on that.

Basically, I'm concerned if these high tiers are consistent in the narrative to warrant acceptance of these multipliers stacking. Nevertheless, the boosts at the very least do seem fine by themselves as proper doubling of power.

The boosts seem legit, whether we would index the tiers brought up by the overstacking of them is another matter, at least without the proper feats.

Edit: I'm neutral with the tiering proposed, basically

 

[MasqueTLDF]

I do not question the legitimacy of the multiplier, I was quite direct at that. I question if the stacking is actually supported through proper feats. Which you have elaborated that it's not (at least in explicit matter).



The boosts seem legit, whether we would index the tiers brought up by the overstacking of them is another matter, at least without the proper feats.

Edit: I'm neutral with the tiering proposed, basically

Got it.

 

[TotalMasterInfinity]

I agree with Vaporization for Dragon Shot.
I agree with the levels for Issei Base, Max Power, Incomplete BxB and Incomplete BxB Outrage
I admit that at first I didn't understand where the x3.5 for Rias Full Power came from, but your reasoning convinced me

Now my problems:

-The Scale of Rias, Riser and Issei Incomplete BxB
As I see it, Rias Full Power, Riser Full Power and Issei BxB are comparable to each other, if Rias and Riser have contained forms or base states they are comparable to each other.
I understand that Rias and Riser fight at the end of Rating Game and the statements can make it seem like Riser is stronger, but I don't see it that way for 2 reasons:
1) The biggest problem with fighting Riser is his regeneration which can only be overwhelmed if there is a large difference in power, this allows him to maintain a certain superiority over Rias.
2) Riser's own arrogance and overconfidence in his regeneration make him underestimate his enemies and overestimate himself, I admit that Rias Full Power and Issei Full Power at that moment would not have been able to defeat Riser, but I think that has more to do with their regeneration than with Riser being much stronger than both of them.

While I'm willing to admit that maybe this view is wrong, I look forward to seeing what you think

- Maou Class Kokabiel
This is a topic that has been discussed several times in the fandom. I'm sorry, but you can't:
1. tell me that Powered Up Rias is an Ultimate Class
2. that if she were stronger she would be Maou Class
3. show me Kokabiel trying to deflect Powered Up Rias's attack, failing and taking damage in the process
4. show me Kokabiel nullifying Powered Up Rias's attack with her power and then show that that act drained some of her energy

and then tell me that Kokabiel is a Maou Class

I'm sorry but the way I see it the clash scene between Kokabiel and Powered Up Rias shows them as comparable to each other and thus making Kokabiel a High Level Ultimate Class being.

-Azazel
Although I know this is for the scale of Volumes 2 and 4, I have to talk about the levels of later volumes
Let's go step by step.

1# Vali Base cannot be comparable to Azazel Base
Reason: Vali BxB and Azazel Base are shown to be comparable to each other, Vali BxB is able to send Azazel Base flying with a surprise blow and leave him injured, and Azazel Base makes it clear that even without an arm he can fight Vali BxB without a problem.

2# Scaling Azazel Base to the baseline of the Maou Class (3 Boost * Rias Powered Up) seems like a mistake to me
The reason: As shown in Azazel's profile on the Vs Battle page and volume 16, Azazel Base is among the characters who can hurt Grendel, which puts him on the same scale as Issei CxC Triaina Full Power.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Got it.

To help you a bit

@Planck69 @Firestorm808 @Qawsedf234 @Propellus what do you think of this situation?
OP proposes the usage of multiplier stacking to reach into higher tiers. While there's no direct feats of this level, the multiplier and the stacking seems completely valid within the story itself. Me personally am neutral of the tiering, since our rules do dictate they need to be supported the more stacking occurs, but as mentioned, this ability is literally the crux of the protagonist abilities and the boosts themselves are supported, just not the tier.

 

[Planck69]

Neutral. This has been an issue for DxD for a while, cause the Boosts aren't exaggerated or anything like that, they're a core part of the character. But at the same time, taken literally they lead to him being orders of magnitude higher than his showcased feats.

Maybe a "Likely/Possibly" modifier can be considered?

 

[MasqueTLDF]

-The Scale of Rias, Riser and Issei Incomplete BxB
As I see it, Rias Full Power, Riser Full Power and Issei BxB are comparable to each other, if Rias and Riser have contained forms or base states they are comparable to each other.

Rias' full power is compared to Riser's base, their bases aren't compared. As we know that the indication of Rias' full power is the red aura surrounding her body and Riser's full power is when his fire wings are present. And the difference between BxB Issei and Rias should be pretty drastic if the latter can't overwhelm Riser's regen but the former can.

I understand that Rias and Riser fight at the end of Rating Game and the statements can make it seem like Riser is stronger, but I don't see it that way for 2 reasons:
1) The biggest problem with fighting Riser is his regeneration which can only be overwhelmed if there is a large difference in power, this allows him to maintain a certain superiority over Rias.

Which BxB Issei was able to overcome, if Rias' full power was comparable, she'd be able to do something similar. But she wasn't. Coupled with her full power only being compared to Riser's base, there's a clear indication of Riser and Issei's superiority. Though I don't disagree that Rias' Full Power could be comparable to Riser's, we don't have enough info on exactly how much stronger than his base his full power state is and how strong Rias' base is. The given Rias scaling just places her vaguely above baseline High Class (12 Boosts Issei) as we can't accurate place her any higher due to lack of info and scaling her to him in this instance could result in a potentially bloated result later on.

2) Riser's own arrogance and overconfidence in his regeneration make him underestimate his enemies and overestimate himself, I admit that Rias Full Power and Issei Full Power at that moment would not have been able to defeat Riser, but I think that has more to do with their regeneration than with Riser being much stronger than both of them.

While I admit that this is true, strength is definitely a factor as Riser's regen is much less effective against opponents that are stronger than him.

- Maou Class Kokabiel
This is a topic that has been discussed several times in the fandom. I'm sorry, but you can't:
1. tell me that Powered Up Rias is an Ultimate Class
2. that if she were stronger she would be Maou Class

She was High Class before getting powered up, the two subsequent classes are Ultimate -> Maou. And it's stated by Kokabiel that she's currently Ultimate Class and she'd be Maou Class with a "little bit" more Boosts.

3. show me Kokabiel trying to deflect Powered Up Rias's attack, failing and taking damage in the process

I admit, the amount of Boosts (3) suggested may be too high considering the outcome of the attack and maybe 1 Boost being the difference between them could be more accurate, though I still believe the originally suggested 3 is accurate and the reason Kokabiel was so damaged was because of the nature of Rias' Attack (existence erasure) since the gap wouldn't be too large between them.

4. show me Kokabiel nullifying Powered Up Rias's attack with her power and then show that that act drained some of her energy

I'm sorry, bu what is this referring to?

and then tell me that Kokabiel is a Maou Class

I'm sorry but the way I see it the clash scene between Kokabiel and Powered Up Rias shows them as comparable to each other and thus making Kokabiel a High Level Ultimate Class being.

Admitting that they're comparable is tantamount to saying that Rias' PoD would have an effect on him thus negating the disqualifier for him still being stronger than her (as the damage would be a result of the EE). And even if he was only a "little bit" stronger than her, he'd still be Maou Class as Rias' power was only a "little bit" away from Maou Class.

-Azazel
Although I know this is for the scale of Volumes 2 and 4, I have to talk about the levels of later volumes
Let's go step by step.

1# Vali Base cannot be comparable to Azazel Base
Reason: Vali BxB and Azazel Base are shown to be comparable to each other, Vali BxB is able to send Azazel Base flying with a surprise blow and leave him injured, and Azazel Base makes it clear that even without an arm he can fight Vali BxB without a problem.

I just considered it a bluff since it's in character for Vali to want to fight the stronger opponent and instead of Azazel, he chose Issei. Also, considering the relation of the two and how Azazel could potentially exploit the weaknesses of Vali (Light, SG scanner, other tech items), defeating him in a straight up brawl seems pretty unlikely, especially considering that Azazel started forming a light spear as soon as he said he'd fight him. (Or he could reform Downfall Dragon Another Armor as he said that he was able to reform the armor and when talking to Vali, he only mentions that he isn't wearing armor at the moment.) And when did he attack Base Azazel? If he did and Vali was depicted as stronger, that just backs up my point.

2# Scaling Azazel Base to the baseline of the Maou Class (3 Boost * Rias Powered Up) seems like a mistake to me
The reason: As shown in Azazel's profile on the Vs Battle page and volume 16, Azazel Base is among the characters who can hurt Grendel, which puts him on the same scale as Issei CxC Triaina Full Power.

And Azazel only attacks Grendel twice, once in the stomach (doesn't do damage) and once in the eye. (does do damage) And I don't believe attacking a weak point should scale someone to another character.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Neutral. This has been an issue for DxD for a while, cause the Boosts aren't exaggerated or anything like that, they're a core part of the character. But at the same time, taken literally they lead to him being orders of magnitude higher than his showcased feats.

Maybe a "Likely/Possibly" modifier can be considered?

In this instance, would a "Likely Small Planet Level work? I'd be fine with that tbh, especially considering that this particular key "Volume 4 BxB Issei w/Max Boosts + Outrage" doesn't really impact future keys, however what about later cases of similar instances? If we maintain the "Likely/Possibly for everything related to Boosts, the whole page will end up filled with just that and no solid ratings.

Personally, I believe that since the wording of the requirement

For higher multipliers, like times 100 and above, the importance of stronger evidence, such as feats displaying power of a similar magnitude as the value the multiplier points to or the multipliers importance to the plot of the story, and a higher amount of evidence becomes increasingly necessary.

specifically mentions "or" indicating that only one is necessary, we shouldn't treat DxD as if it requires both. Sorry if my point is coming off in the wrong way.

 

[Dragongod224]

And Azazel only attacks Grendel twice, once in the stomach (doesn't do damage) and once in the eye. (does do damage) And I don't believe attacking a weak point should scale someone to another character.

That right

First attack :-

Sensei creates a gigantic spear of light and releases it by aiming it towards Grendel’s stomach!
[Oho! Bring it on!]
Grendel tries to take it on upfront, but the spear of light scatters before it hits him and turns into many arrows of light which in turn attack him!
So many arrows hit Grendel’s stomach! Oh, a spear of light that can change its form! To be expected from the former Governor! He won’t simply shoot out a normal spear!
[Chi, such a cunning Fallen Angel!]

Second attack:-

It seems like we can manage this if Sensei and I become serious…… But there will be a hindrance after this if we don’t reserve our energy. But there’s no point if we end up dead……!
I at least want Sensei to go on ahead when he finds the chance……but Grendel makes a cunning attack by breathing out a wide-range fire and swinging his tail at times!
“Anyway, I’ll take one of your eyes.”
Sensei, who found an opening, throws his spear of light and it stabs deeply into Grendel’s left eye!
[Guo! Oooooooooooo!]
Grendel bursts out so much blue blood from one of his eyes! I assumed he would snap by having one of his eyes crushed, but he simply puts on a face filled with ecstasy.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

That right

Thought I'd mention that this statement specifically refers to the total inflicted by the ORC to Grendel as he'd been receiving numerous attacks from everyone their for awhile atp.

Grendel complains. He still has a fearless smile despite receiving so much damage to his body.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Personally, I believe that since the wording of the requirement

specifically mentions "or" indicating that only one is necessary, we shouldn't treat DxD as if it requires both. Sorry if my point is coming off in the wrong way.

If you need to rely on such semantics for the tiering to be accepted, that in itself shows the upgrade to be flimsy ngl

In this instance, would a "Likely Small Planet Level work? I'd be fine with that tbh, especially considering that this particular key "Volume 4 BxB Issei w/Max Boosts + Outrage" doesn't really impact future keys, however what about later cases of similar instances? If we maintain the "Likely/Possibly for everything related to Boosts, the whole page will end up filled with just that and no solid ratings.

I wouldn't be opposed to a Likely rating here. As for future keys, it's the best we can do imo.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

If you need to rely on such semantics for the tiering to be accepted, that in itself shows the upgrade to be flimsy ngl

I mean, I wouldn't really call it semantics, it's an entirely different requirement. If it said "and" (indicating that both are necessary, then I'd agree, however this isn't really the case.

I wouldn't be opposed to a Likely rating here. As for future keys, it's the best we can do imo.

Sure, however for the next thread (which is kinda more of the same), would you be able to help there as well?

And would I be able to mark you down for Agree for everything (since I haven't seen you disagree with anything prior) and change the Low 5-B to likely Low 5-B?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

And would I be able to mark you down for Agree for everything (since I haven't seen you disagree with anything prior) and change the Low 5-B to likely Low 5-B?

That's fine

 

[TotalMasterInfinity]

I'm sorry, bu what is this referring to?

But Kokabiel also wasn’t uninjured. His black robe was tattered in places, and his hands were bloody. But his ability to block demonic power certainly decreased.

I just considered it a bluff since it's in character for Vali to want to fight the stronger opponent and instead of Azazel, he chose Issei. Also, considering the relation of the two and how Azazel could potentially exploit the weaknesses of Vali (Light, SG scanner, other tech items), defeating him in a straight up brawl seems pretty unlikely, especially considering that Azazel started forming a light spear as soon as he said he'd fight him. (Or he could reform Downfall Dragon Another Armor as he said that he was able to reform the armor and when talking to Vali, he only mentions that he isn't wearing armor at the moment.) And when did he attack Base Azazel? If he did and Vali was depicted as stronger, that just backs up my point.

And then, an even more astonishing event occurred before my eyes while Azazel fought with Cattleya in the air. An unforeseen blow struck the Governor of the Fallen Angels from the side...

Something fell down right in front of us! After the cloud of dust which enveloped it vanished, there was...

“...Tch. So you’re betraying me under these circumstances, Vali.”

It was the Governor of the Fallen Angels, who was gravely injured.

“As expected of Azazel. However, your armour has been released. So your artificial Sacred Gears still require more study.”

Azazel pointed at Vali.

“Now then, Vali. What will you do? Shall I go at it again? Even if I have no armour and am one-handed, I can fight with you adequately.”

It doesn't seem like a bluff to me

And Azazel only attacks Grendel twice, once in the stomach (doesn't do damage)

“Then, eat this?”

Sensei creates a gigantic spear of light and releases it by aiming it towards Grendel’s stomach!

[Oho! Bring it on!]

Grendel tries to take it on upfront, but the spear of light scatters before it hits him and turns into many arrows of light which in turn attack him!

So many arrows hit Grendel’s stomach! Oh, a spear of light that can change its form! To be expected from the former Governor! He won’t simply shoot out a normal spear!

[Chi, such a cunning Fallen Angel!]

Grendel complains. He still has a fearless smile despite receiving so much damage to his body.

Grendel did receive damage

 

[Dragongod224]

Grendel did receive damage

Yes grendel did receive damage
But not azazel single handle damage him

Grendel complains. He still has a fearless smile despite receiving so much damage to his body.

this statement specifically refers to the total damage inflicted by the ORC to Grendel as he'd been receiving numerous attacks from everyone

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Not sure what you were trying to say I meant.

If BxB Vali is able to easily deal "Grave damage" to Base Azazel with both arms, that just supports me saying that the former is above the latter even more. + Why would Azazel goad Issei into Outraging more if Azazel could take care of Vali by himself, it just doesn't make sense.

“Tch. So this is the limit of an artificial Sacred Gear. There’s still much room for improvement... As long as the core jewel is safe, I can remake it again. I’ll have you keep me company for a little while longer, Gigantis Dragon-kun Fafnir.”

Azazel stated himself that he could remake the armor.

It doesn't seem like a bluff to me

Even if it may not seem like one to you, it obviously is. There's no other explanation (aside from non-strength related wincons).

Grendel did receive damage

Thought I'd mention that this statement specifically refers to the total inflicted by the ORC to Grendel as he'd been receiving numerous attacks from everyone their for awhile atp.

Kinda like a "straw that broke the camel's back" statement, doesn't necessarily mean that that specific attack damaged Grendel. (And there's no indication that the statement refers to that specific attack.) Just that the final attack was the inciting incident to cause the statement to be made.

While I say that, arrows made from many attributes start to pierce through him.

If I follow where it came from with my eyes, I witness Rossweisse-san who has many magic-circles activated in the air.

—But she can’t inflict that much damage even with these magical attacks.

The blades of Demonic Emperor Sword Gram and Ex-Durandal get covered with insane aura!

The two of them swing down their swords at the same time as Grendel breathes out his flame!

The wave created from the two legendary swords and a huge fireball created by the Evil Dragon hit each other head on! The moment the two attacks collide, the air vibrates which causes a violent shock that spreads throughout the field.

The wave made by those two takes out Grendel’s flame and envelops his huge body!

[Guoooooooooooooooooo!]

Grendel screams out! The two huge cannon-like attacks that came from Gram and Ex-Durandal! An opponent that is merely strong will go down with that single attack. But—the one we are facing right now isn’t an opponent that is merely strong.

After the attack caused by the wave ends, what appear in the aftermath is—Grendel who has smoke arising from his whole body.

—He’s standing up!

He has blue blood bursting out from all over his body, but he doesn’t show any sign of falling down and—.

Akeno-san’s voice reaches us so we take our distance from Grendel. The three thunder-and-light that has the shape of a Dragon flies towards Grendel and has all of his body electrified!

[Gagaagaagagagagagagagagagagagaga!]

Grendel gets paralysed! After the thunder-and-light ends, Grendel releases smoke from his mouth.

We the Occult Research Club are in shock after witnessing this!

“……He still stands even with that much damage……!”

“……He seems like he’s really enjoying it. So this Evil-Dragon will even accept death as he laughs huh……!”

“……No wonder people say you should avoid fighting them.”

Kiba, Xenovia, and Akeno-san stiffen their expressions at Grendel’s abnormal sense towards battles. This guy even enjoys his own death! I can’t keep up if we have a guy like this as our opponent!

Same kinda statement.

 

[Digital_Franz]

I suppose it's fine, but I'm worried if the AP values reached through the boosts is properly supported. That is one of our requirements for accepting multipliers:

Basically the big problem here.

Like, through multipliers, Low 5-B levels of power got reached in these volumes. Are there feats of planetary scale (or at the very least, multi-continental effects) shown?

No. At most they calculated some feats that were Multi-Continental but I don't know if it concerns these keys. Also the gap between baseline High 6-A and basiline Low 5-B is really very big to be covered without feats.

Basically, I'm concerned if these high tiers are consistent in the narrative to warrant acceptance of these multipliers stacking. Nevertheless, the boosts at the very least do seem fine by themselves as proper doubling of power.

This is the real problem. The Planet level statement comes from his AxA form which is in his last key in the sandbox and which in the sandbox scales to Star level. The ratio between the two baselines is more than 10^9.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Basically the big problem here.

No. At most they calculated some feats that were Multi-Continental but I don't know if it concerns these keys. Also the gap between baseline High 6-A and basiline Low 5-B is really very big to be covered without feats.

Meant more as in AoE effects, not necessarily AP. Literally anything that can solidly put the rating there. But this was already covered.

The thing is, the boosts are legit. So a Likely rating is okay with me.

 

[Digital_Franz]

Meant more as in AoE effects, not necessarily AP. Literally anything that can solidly put the rating there. But this was already covered.

The thing is, the boosts are legit. So a Likely rating is okay with me.

Seems reasonable.

 

[TotalMasterInfinity]

Azazel is talking about the spear, not the armor.

[He made the Sacred Gear go into a Burst state and did a forced awakening. A kind of running out of control. The Sacred Gear will break after a battle with that. Does he intend to use that so-called artificial Sacred Gear as a disposable?]

It is made clear that the Spear breaks after the battle, and that is what happens, the Spear breaks and only the core remains, and from the core Azazel could later repair the Spear, Azazel could not equip the armor again after the artificial Sacred Gear broke, again he himself makes it clear that he can fight Vali BxB only with his Base state. Both are comparable to each other, I don't see why it seems so incredible or why another explanation would be needed.

During the battle against Grendel, every time someone attacks him, the result of the attack is described. When Xenovia attacks him, it is described as how she scratched him. When Kiba attacks him, it is described as how his Dragon Knights with the Demon Swords managed to cut Grendel's skin and draw blood. The statement after Azazel's attack is obviously describing the result of his attack, which is that Azazel managed to damage Grendel.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Azazel is talking about the spear, not the armor.

The Armor is part of the spear.

It is made clear that the Spear breaks after the battle, and that is what happens, the Spear breaks and only the core remains, and from the core Azazel could later repair the Spear, Azazel could not equip the armor again after the artificial Sacred Gear broke, again he himself makes it clear that he can fight Vali BxB only with his Base state. Both are comparable to each other, I don't see why it seems so incredible or why another explanation would be needed.

Maybe because he literally got no diffed by Vali and Vali also no diffed one of the FA Cadres (who are relative).

During the battle against Grendel, every time someone attacks him, the result of the attack is described. When Xenovia attacks him, it is described as how she scratched him. When Kiba attacks him, it is described as how his Dragon Knights with the Demon Swords managed to cut Grendel's skin and draw blood. The statement after Azazel's attack is obviously describing the result of his attack, which is that Azazel managed to damage Grendel.

The when of the statements does not matter, rather, it's the content itself. And every time Grendel is actually injured, his blue blood is described. This remains consistent throughout his appearances. Azazel's attack is not described as such yet out of all of the attacks on Grendel including ones that make him bleed profusely, the one that doesn't is the one attack that does "so much damage". That makes no sense.

 

[Dragongod224]

During the battle against Grendel, every time someone attacks him, the result of the attack is described. When Xenovia attacks him, it is described as how she scratched him. When Kiba attacks him, it is described as how his Dragon Knights with the Demon Swords managed to cut Grendel's skin and draw blood. The statement after Azazel's attack is obviously describing the result of his attack, which is that Azazel managed to damage Grendel.

Just like you mention every attack are described

But every attack type are mention to like
xenovia attack scratch Grendel
Kiba attack cut him

Both are sword used

But azazel's attack her then it's mention

Grendel complains. He still has a fearless smile despite receiving so much damage to his body.

But if azazel's attack damage grendel than it
describe like pierce his skin

Because azazel's use light spear

But it not

 

[TotalMasterInfinity]

Anyway, I'm tired of talking, I've made it clear what I agree with and what I don't, do what you want.

 

[TotalMasterInfinity]

Disagree: @TotalMasterInfinity (Kokabiel strength, Rias strength, Vali strength)

Correction, I am willing to agree with Rias' strength, I can also give in to Kokabiel's case.

What I cannot accept is the ridiculousness of putting Vali Base on the level of Azazel Base or assuming that Azazel Base is incapable of harming Grendel.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Correction, I am willing to agree with Rias' strength, I can also give in to Kokabiel's case.

What I cannot accept is the ridiculousness of putting Vali Base on the level of Azazel Base or assuming that Azazel Base is incapable of harming Grendel.

Ok, would you like to continue discussing?

 

[TotalMasterInfinity]

Ok, would you like to continue discussing?

No, because we would only be locked into a circular discussion.

I've already left my arguments

It is clear to me that Vali BxB and Azazel Base are comparable to each other based on:
1. Vali BxB was able to damage Azazel Base with a surprise attack
2. Azazel Base does not doubt that he can fight Vali BxB even without his armor and the lack of an arm

It is clear to me that statement after Azazel Base's the attack makes it clear that this damage to Grendel, the fact that Grendel like all Evil Dragons is so damn tenacious as to stand and smile despite that does not take away from Azazel's merit.

 

[Qawsedf234]

mentioned, this ability is literally the crux of the protagonist abilities and the boosts themselves are supported, just not the tier.

The rules regarding it is here

However, a good statement alone is not enough to get a high multiplier accepted. The amount of extra evidence one has to provide to get larger multipliers accepted is proportional to the size of the multiplier. For lower multipliers, like things much less than times 100, evidence can take the form of a clear increase in combat strength against priorly equal or superior opponents. For higher multipliers, like times 100 and above, the importance of stronger evidence, such as feats displaying power of a similar magnitude as the value the multiplier points to or the multipliers importance to the plot of the story, and a higher amount of evidence becomes increasingly necessary.

Multipliers higher than 100x requires a feat or a serious level of evidence for verification.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

The rules regarding it is here

Multipliers higher than 100x requires a feat or a serious level of evidence for verification.

I already brought that up.

 

[TotalMasterInfinity]

or the multipliers importance to the plot of the story

Anyway, there is no character that scales to Issei's power BxB Incomplete Outrage. Not to mention that it is made clear that there are factors that prevent him from exercising the full extent of said power.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Closed per OP request