(STAFF NEEDED) Major AP and Speed Revisions DxD

[BlackeJan]

You need to remember I’m not even staff on VSBW. And even if I was content mods don’t have voting rights

I forgot u wasn’t one so I thought I could still be able to ping. My fault

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Bump

 

[Ar1216789]

can someone summarize this

 

[MasqueTLDF]

can someone summarize this

Just to simplify things:
Arguments for:
AP: Issei's (Previously unaccepted due to inconsistency) Boost multipliers (Which double power as many times as the ability was used) were proven to be consistent via the multiplier blog and a scaling chain with proposed tier changes was made.
Speed: Many characters use light in the series, some uses were previously accepted a light speed while some weren't. My Power Systems blog (and the seventh paragraph of the OP) explains the many similarities to real light and why it should be used for speed scaling. (Should especially be used given characters around that level have ftl feats) Additionally, I proposed the use of the aforementioned Boosts multipliers for Speed because it is shown to increase strength and speed and is stated to double "power". Power referring to Demonic Power which was proven to be a UES and is used to increase the user's physical stats (including speed). And a scaling chain with proposed tier changes were shown in the new sandbox and speed blog. Additionally, I clarified most moments in the series where large speed gaps are present to clear up any potential inconsistencies.
Arguments against:
AP: Inconsistent, numbers are too large.
Speed: Numbers are too large, the exact words "doubling speed" are never used, inconsistent, increase=/=multiply.

 

[Ar1216789]

I agree.

 

[BlackeJan]

I agree.

Agree to what? have ya look at the opposing and supporting arguments?

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Bump

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Boost Boost Boost Bump

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Boost Boost Boost Boost Bump

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Boost Boost Boost Boost Boost Bump (pls guys, I'm begging )

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Boost Boost Boost Boost Boost Boost Bump

 

[SCARECROW1983]

Pipipi

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Boost Boost Boost Boost Boost Boost Boost Bump

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Boost Boost Boost Boost Boost Boost Boost Boost Bump (I'd really appreciate it if some staff could help : p, also, I compiled the UES stuff into the Power Systems Blog)

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Boost Boost Boost Boost Boost Boost Boost Boost Boost Bump

 

[Antvasima]

@Elizhaa @EliminatorVenom @LephyrTheRevanchist @FinePoint @Propellus @AbaddonTheDisappointment @ActuallySpaceMan42

Are any of you willing to help out here please?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I am not interested in evaluating DxD, my apologies.

However, if no one else comes in a reasonable timeframe, I will take a look

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Anyway, Lightspeed stuff look alright to me to meet criteria for light standards. But need more time to look over multiplier details.

BUMP and could you please clarify your current opinion?

 

[karo_senpaii]

I'm not a DXD expert but I just want to say something about the multiplier for speed. It is not that the people arguing against it are just purposefully obtuse. We understand the statement "doubling power", however the wiki is very strict on multipliers for speed. You need direct statements like "doubling speed" otherwise the wiki just treats multipliers denoting "power" viable for just ap. It does no matter if it is shown to increase speed, it would simply be treated as having an unknown increase for speed and then the multiplier for ap. I think someone gave an example in OPM. If not for this rule something like sage mode for Naruto would just about have this multiplier. So, unless a direct statement stating it doubles speed then the multiplier won't apply for speed even though speed is shown increased. "power" is not enough

 

[Phoenks]

I'm not a DXD expert but I just want to say something about the multiplier for speed. It is not that the people arguing against it are just purposefully obtuse. We understand the statement "doubling power", however the wiki is very strict on multipliers for speed. You need direct statements like "doubling speed" otherwise the wiki just treats multipliers denoting "power" viable for just ap. It does no matter if it is shown to increase speed, it would simply be treated as having an unknown increase for speed and then the multiplier for ap. I think someone gave an example in OPM. If not for this rule something like sage mode for Naruto would just about have this multiplier. So, unless a direct statement stating it doubles speed then the multiplier won't apply for speed even though speed is shown increased. "power" is not enough

Yes, exactly. I have even provided examples of this being the case on other threads.

Anyway, ignoring speed. I am still thinking about the AP aspect. On one hand,. I do think the intent of the author is that it genuinely does double Issei's power, but on the other hand—I do not think the series AT ALL knows or ever showcases just how exponential that factor is. Like, the biggest statement is Issei being able to destroy the world. And that's him at his max potential.

We never see any feats nor are there any statements to support the extremely high ratings that you get from scaling boost like how this blog aims to scale it.

So I am very much on the fence.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

I'm not a DXD expert but I just want to say something about the multiplier for speed. It is not that the people arguing against it are just purposefully obtuse. We understand the statement "doubling power", however the wiki is very strict on multipliers for speed. You need direct statements like "doubling speed" otherwise the wiki just treats multipliers denoting "power" viable for just ap. It does no matter if it is shown to increase speed, it would simply be treated as having an unknown increase for speed and then the multiplier for ap. I think someone gave an example in OPM. If not for this rule something like sage mode for Naruto would just about have this multiplier. So, unless a direct statement stating it doubles speed then the multiplier won't apply for speed even though speed is shown increased. "power" is not enough

Not sure if that would apply in this context. "Power" refers to the UES of the verse, not just AP, for example if a DB character doubles their ki, a proportional increase is applied to their physical stats, I'm arguing something similar based on the reasoning that the UES has been shown to proportionally increase speed and strength. So in this specific instance "doubling power" doesn't carry the literal definition but rather the arbitrary DxD definition that I outlined here.

Also, I'd appreciate if anyone could give input on the multipliers applying to AP. That's the main point of the CRT and no one's addressed it in a meaningful context.

 

[karo_senpaii]

Yes, exactly. I have even provided examples of this being the case on other threads.

Anyway, ignoring speed. I am still thinking about the AP aspect. On one hand,. I do think the intent of the author is that it genuinely does double Issei's power, but on the other hand—I do not think the series AT ALL knows or ever showcases just how exponential that factor is. Like, the biggest statement is Issei being able to destroy the world. And that's him at his max potential.

We never see any feats nor are there any statements to support the extremely high ratings that you get from scaling boost like how this blog aims to scale it.

So I am very much on the fence.

What exactly would be the levels the multiplier would get him to? coz yeah like dxd does show a lot of consistency. Admittedly I have only ever watched the anime that's why I'm not taking a stance but he does use it to overturn battles where he was getting completely stomped to having the upper hand. But if the end result does not match any destructive or ap feat anywhere close to it then yeah that's a problem

Not sure if that would apply in this context. "Power" refers to the UES of the verse, not just AP, for example if a DB character doubles their ki, a proportional increase is applied to their physical stats, I'm arguing something similar based on the reasoning that the UES has been shown to proportionally increase speed and strength. So in this specific instance "doubling power" doesn't carry the literal definition but rather the arbitrary DxD definition that I outlined here.

Also, I'd appreciate if anyone could give input on the multipliers applying to AP. That's the main point of the CRT and no one's addressed it in a meaningful context.

That's actually not how the wiki treats UES and DB has never been treated like that for speed. I think the only accepted speed multiplier for DB is kaoken and it has a direct statement.
I'm actually fine with the ap aspect from what I have seen but I'm not an expert. Also you made a mistake in this thread. Staffs would feel a bit reluctant to read 7 pages of the back and forth here. You should have called staffs here earlier and the arguments did not need to drag out this long

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Anyway, ignoring speed. I am still thinking about the AP aspect. On one hand,. I do think the intent of the author is that it genuinely does double Issei's power, but on the other hand—I do not think the series AT ALL knows or ever showcases just how exponential that factor is.

But it does, in every example of its use, it's shown overcoming a large AP gap and we literally have a formula to quantify the increase.

Like, the biggest statement is Issei being able to destroy the world. And that's him at his max potential.

Actually, the statement was referring to Issei while holding back, and most certainly not at max potential as he hasn't obtained Eros Engine or his Dragon Form.

“I received an explanation regarding Ryuuteimaru. That is — it looks like Ryuuteimaru holds a power capable enough to destroy a planet."

[—!!? A p-planet!?]

Everyone except for Ravel and me screamed in shock at Rias's words. This was natural, right? You know, if you heard this and that about a planet. I said,

“Even when I defeated Tartarus, Seekvaira-san told me to suppress the power. In fact, with limited output, it had such power, right? ...I also thought it was dangerous. Destroying a planet sounds crazy, but I feel like I understand.”

[Revelation All-Range Blaster!!!!!!!!!!!!!]

From muzzles all over the body, countless shots of extreme auras were fired towards Tartarus!

Defensive magic circles formed at the end of Tartarus's arms. Those magic circles got rained by Ryuuteimaru's aura shot — Revelation Blaster! Tartarus's magic circles were pierced as if they were made out of paper and the bombardment fired by Ryuuteimaru hit almost the entirety of the eyeball-filled sphere! Overflowing bombardment hit the ground, and at that moment — it created a huge explosion that easily changed the terrain! No, it didn't end with just that, it made the space itself tremble! Tartarus, who took the Revelation Blaster head-on, seemed to have taken a huge amount of damage, with almost half of the sphere being blown away! —! N-No, wait a minute! Wait a second! Didn’t the attack just now almost become a decisive blow!? It was still just the first shot, you know!? I was greatly surprised by this result! ...Wh-What the hell! Just how many ∞ Blasters combined was that!? And yet, I was limiting the output! Yasaka-san saw the result of my shots and said.

And that only refers to it's range because aside from possessing ridiculous strength with AxA, the Revelation All-Range Blaster would allow him to actually affect the planet at once. Remember, cross country range in DxD is considered especially impressive even for Longinus abilities like AxA, so if Issei could target the entire planet at once, obviously it'd be hyped up. Keep in mind that DC (Energy + Range) is different from AP. So this in no way debunks my argument.

It was indeed an outrageously long-winded name! Was it Italian? But, it truly had an incredible effect! Dulio’s top-tier Longinus, he could change a country’s weather and climate as long as he wanted to…the Evil Dragons and fake Sekiryuutei were butchered so easily, so it seems he really was telling the truth! That Balance Breaker, after adjusting its power, it had completely wiped clean all of the enemies in the vicinity, but, if it wasn’t controlled, it could definitely produce enough bubbles to cover all of Japan, or perhaps even…. It was also a subspecies Balance Breaker which he acquired afterwards, it really suited Dulio! Ah, our leader is really capable! With the combat power of Dulio and all of the allies of different races, the mass-produced Evil Dragons and fake Sekiryuutei which surrounded Trihexa had been cut down with a frightening speed! In order to stop the Holy Grail from functioning, we began advancing towards Trihexa. When we were almost there

The witch — Lavinia Reni said that while she froze the Evil Dragons in the air one after the other. At her side was a humanoid ice figure, standing at a total height of three metres. It seemed to be wearing a dress, and had four slender arms. Although its face didn’t have a nose or a mouth, it had six eyes on the left side of its face, while the right side of its face was studded with something resembling the thorns of a rose. —[Absolute Demise][43], one of the Longinus. It was also an independent avatar type. Once activated, the Ice Princess would appear at the wielder’s side. The Princess would obey the commands of its wielder, and freeze anything. As long as Lavinia wanted to, it could instantly turn the entire area into a frozen world. At its maximum range, it could lock an entire small country within a crystal of ice. Moreover, the wielder Lavinia was originally a witch who was able to utilise various types of magic. Mass-produced Evil Dragons couldn’t possibly defeat her, especially since she had the Ice Princess. Bikou, who was accompanying Ikuse Tobio and Lavinia also smiled as he extended his Ruyi Bang and stabbed several Evil Dragons.

We never see any feats nor are there any statements to support the extremely high ratings that you get from scaling boost like how this blog aims to scale it.

AP gaps overcome by stated multipliers are considered valid feats.

For lower multipliers, like things much less than times 100, evidence can take the form of a clear increase in combat strength against priorly equal or superior opponents. For higher multipliers, like times 100 and above, the importance of stronger evidence, such as feats displaying power of a similar magnitude as the value the multiplier points to or the multipliers importance to the plot of the story, and a higher amount of evidence becomes increasingly necessary.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

That's actually not how the wiki treats UES and DB has never been treated like that for speed. I think the only accepted speed multiplier for DB is kaoken and it has a direct statement.

I'm pretty sure the wiki's treatment of UES is on a case-by-case basis as isn't the most common thing and varies greatly between verses so we could just let staff discuss that.

Also you made a mistake in this thread. Staffs would feel a bit reluctant to read 7 pages of the back and forth here. You should have called staffs here earlier and the arguments did not need to drag out this long

I messaged close to 50 staff members directly after I posted the thread and only one responded, I've also stated multiple times to others in the thread to wait for more staff for discussion for this very reason. I am most definitely not the only one at fault here if at all.

And uh, I probably won't be active on here in the next few hours because I'll be sleeping so I'll answer any responses when I awake. Gn everyone
Edit: I'm fine if anyone disproves the Multiplier applying to speed thing if it's really incorrect, I'm just not sure if the point I'm trying to get across is actually getting across and if it is, I'd still just like to hear an explanation from a staff member/someone that can explain a bit better why exactly I'm wrong while taking my points into consideration. My stance on the light and AP stuff is pretty hard tho, I haven't seen anything that actually conflicts on that front. : 3

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Anyway, ignoring speed. I am still thinking about the AP aspect. On one hand,. I do think the intent of the author is that it genuinely does double Issei's power, but on the other hand—I do not think the series AT ALL knows or ever showcases just how exponential that factor is. Like, the biggest statement is Issei being able to destroy the world. And that's him at his max potential.

Yes, and I’m still neutral, but…

AP is not the same as DC, according to our wiki’s standards. There’s multiversal characters on here that are only stated to be planet or solar system busters according to their narrative. It doesn’t stop us from rating them higher.

I don’t think that’s a legit argument based on how the wiki works. It’s better to tackle any issues with the multiplier itself than using environmental destruction fallacies.

Edit: And oh yeah, it’s technically not his maximum potential. He has one or two more power ups to go, according to the author’s blog. At the very least, his ExE form would be a lot more powerful than his current form.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

I think that you need to Male a separate thread for the Multipliers on his sacred gear transformations and get accepted AP ranges first before discussing profiles. If you can do that, I don't think there's anything especially wrong with this.

 

[Digital_Franz]

I'm not a DXD expert but I just want to say something about the multiplier for speed. It is not that the people arguing against it are just purposefully obtuse. We understand the statement "doubling power", however the wiki is very strict on multipliers for speed. You need direct statements like "doubling speed" otherwise the wiki just treats multipliers denoting "power" viable for just ap. It does no matter if it is shown to increase speed, it would simply be treated as having an unknown increase for speed and then the multiplier for ap. I think someone gave an example in OPM. If not for this rule something like sage mode for Naruto would just about have this multiplier. So, unless a direct statement stating it doubles speed then the multiplier won't apply for speed even though speed is shown increased. "power" is not enough

Yeah I tried to tell him that many times but they wanted to call me "someone who doesn't understand something so simple".

Yes, exactly. I have even provided examples of this being the case on other threads.

Anyway, ignoring speed. I am still thinking about the AP aspect. On one hand,. I do think the intent of the author is that it genuinely does double Issei's power, but on the other hand—I do not think the series AT ALL knows or ever showcases just how exponential that factor is. Like, the biggest statement is Issei being able to destroy the world. And that's him at his max potential.

We never see any feats nor are there any statements to support the extremely high ratings that you get from scaling boost like how this blog aims to scale it.

So I am very much on the fence.

Exactly. Same question AP, there are levels where he has Planet level while the feat displayed by Issei is at Large Country level. They recalculated to Multi-Continent level but it is not accepted yet. So far the gap between the two is too huge for it to be used.

 

[Digital_Franz]

That's actually not how the wiki treats UES and DB has never been treated like that for speed. I think the only accepted speed multiplier for DB is kaoken and it has a direct statement.
I'm actually fine with the ap aspect from what I have seen but I'm not an expert. Also you made a mistake in this thread. Staffs would feel a bit reluctant to read 7 pages of the back and forth here. You should have called staffs here earlier and the arguments did not need to drag out this long

He's just going to tell you how it works but it doesn't. I've already prepared arguments for when the staff shows up anyway. And also his entire content is based on a false statement about UES. Regarding the aspect of multipliers and using UES for speed, I've already talked to KingTempest about it and he said it's completely false. He just doesn't seem to want to be involved with the verse.

Yes, and I’m still neutral, but…

AP is not the same as DC, according to our wiki’s standards. There’s multiversal characters on here that are only stated to be planet or solar system busters according to their narrative. It doesn’t stop us from rating them higher.

I don’t think that’s a legit argument based on how the wiki works. It’s better to tackle any issues with the multiplier itself than using environmental destruction fallacies.

Edit: And oh yeah, it’s technically not his maximum potential. He has one or two more power ups to go, according to the author’s blog. At the very least, his ExE form would be a lot more powerful than his current form.

The problem is that the feats displayed for some keys give huge level gaps with what is obtained with the multipliers. The statements can still be considered without using the multipliers.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

The problem is that the feats displayed for some keys give huge level gaps with what is obtained with the multipliers. The statements can still be considered without using the multipliers

Well, yeah. But “feels too big” isn’t an actual argument, although that’s the reason I’m neutral as well. It’s just reminiscent of an argument based on incredulity.

The other environmental destruction argument just isn’t valid at all based on the wiki’s standards. It’s a textbook fallacy.

 

[Digital_Franz]

Well, yeah. But “feels too big” isn’t an actual argument, although that’s the reason I’m neutral as well. It’s just reminiscent of an argument based on incredulity.

Not that I'm making "feels too big" my argument but if you look at the Multipliers wiki page it's almost a factor to disqualify the use of Multipliers. Also, in the same page it says that the bigger the numbers, the more evidence is needed, something DxD doesn't have.

The other environmental destruction argument just isn’t valid at all based on the wiki’s standards. It’s a textbook fallacy.

Yeah.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Not that I'm making "feels too big" my argument but if you look at the Multipliers wiki page it's almost a factor to disqualify the use of Multipliers. Also, in the same page it says that the bigger the numbers, the more evidence is needed, something DxD doesn't have.

Yeah.

One thing I’m also thinking about is, if it’s not accepted for stats, then how would Boosted Gear and Divine Dividing be treated in the profiles or matchups?

 

[Digital_Franz]

One thing I’m also thinking about is, if it’s not accepted for stats, then how would Boosted Gear and Divine Dividing be treated in the profiles or matchups?

Statistics Amplification and Statistics Reduction and also on the profile the levels presented will be those that Issei performed with the Boosts.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Just thought I'd mention that each instance of Issei overcoming a power gap with boosts (there are dozens), each instance stating the multiplier (dozens), as well as the story significance are all valid examples of evidence. Definitely enough to back up the multiplier usage.
Edit: Also, I won't be active from 1-6:30 EST

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Statistics Amplification and Statistics Reduction and also on the profile the levels presented will be those that Issei performed with the Boosts.

It’s already treated like that. I’m asking about the continuous doubling and halving effects. How’s it going to be treated in versus matchups, and what about Twice Critical? Like for example, Sieg’s Twice Critical allows him to double his power for each additional arm he has.

 

[Digital_Franz]

It’s already treated like that. I’m asking about the continuous doubling and halving effects. How’s it going to be treated in versus matchups, and what about Twice Critical? Like for example, Sieg’s Twice Critical allows him to double his power for each additional arm he has.

I see. I'm not sure how the multipliers that were rejected are handled. That will probably be up to the staff to decide.

 

[CurrySenpai]

It’s already treated like that. I’m asking about the continuous doubling and halving effects. How’s it going to be treated in versus matchups, and what about Twice Critical? Like for example, Sieg’s Twice Critical allows him to double his power for each additional arm he has.

Just doubling, lol. Why would it be treated any different?

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Just doubling, lol. Why would it be treated any different?

I’m asking because apparently, one of the things that kickstarted the revisions is that people were asking why Issei wasn’t rated higher with Boost if it’s doubling his power.

 

[Phoenks]

Yes, and I’m still neutral, but…

AP is not the same as DC, according to our wiki’s standards. There’s multiversal characters on here that are only stated to be planet or solar system busters according to their narrative. It doesn’t stop us from rating them higher.

I don’t think that’s a legit argument based on how the wiki works. It’s better to tackle any issues with the multiplier itself than using environmental destruction fallacies.

The issue for me is that there is no basis other than the (wiki-calculated) multipliers themselves for these ratings. It's not just about destructive capacity. It's about the fact that there is no backup whatsoever.

There is not a statement or feat in the ENTIRETY of the series that is remotely close to these ratings.

Even in other series, at the very least when a multiplier is applied the series will actually state the multiplier. In DxD you are calculating this multiplier yourself. I mean, yes the series says that Issei's power doubles, and yes it showcases him closing gaps in strength through this, but we never get stated multipliers for how many times his strength is amplified when he uses it a bunch of times.

Is there any statement for Issei using boost 5+ times and it being stated that he is 32x stronger than before? For example?

Like I want to know does the series even ever recognize how big these jumps start to become or is it only limited to the doubling statements?

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Even in other series, at the very least when a multiplier is applied the series will actually state the multiplier. In DxD you are calculating this multiplier yourself. I mean, yes the series says that Issei's power doubles, and yes it showcases him closing gaps in strength through this, but we never get stated multipliers for how many times his strength is amplified when he uses it a bunch of times.

Is there any statement for Issei using boost 5+ times and it being stated that he is 32x stronger than before? For example?

That's literally just how math works tho, I don't understand your argument. If something doubles 5 times, it is 32x greater than before, that's an undisputable fact, so where is your argument stemming from, incredulity?

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Also, there's no rule against stacking multipliers.