Downgrading Hunter X Hunter | Flawed Calculations and More

[CountGracula]

Introduction:​

I've already made a thread about the speed calculations, so I thought "Hey why not do the same for strength and durability", because there's a lot here as well. So just like the speed one, I will be covering every feat individually, and see if I can't find a new way of scaling.

The Calculations and their problems​

Killua Tanks an Explosion
One of the two durability calculations mentioned on the verse page (Seriously, the verse page needs more stuff on it) is Killua tanking a Chimera Bombardier Beetles' fart explosion. First and foremost, Killua wasn't actually at the epicenter of the explosion and so he wouldn't have taken all of the energy that was released, he even had time to block the attack. There already is a calcluation for that, which puts the energy tanked at around 9.4 Tons of TNT (Large Building+). So at minimum that should be changed, but in all honesty I don't think the original calc is usable at all, purely based on the fact that the explosion in question was from a Bombardier Beetle, and not a stack of TNT.

The current formula used is calculating the energy based on an explosions shockwave and its overpressure in bars. The problem being that a Bombardier Beetle's...shall we call it "Explosive release" doesn't actually create a shockwave like that, nor does it create a fireball, it's only high temperature gas released at a rapid velocity, which is quite obvious when we look at the explosion in color. Since it's gas it would also explain why the explosion looks so much bigger the further out it goes, because the gas is just dispersing. The gas/smoke is also going upwards, which also makes it look larger than it actually is.

This is even more obvious when actually looking at the damage the so called 20 Tons of TNT explosion actually made.

Uvogin Tanks a Super Bazooka
This calculation is calculating the energy needed to turn someone into ash from 10 metres away, which the explosion didn't actually do. It's true that some corpses closer to Uvogin in one panel are no longer there in the next, and you could certainly say this is turning them to ashes, personally I just think Togashi was a little inconsistant with their location, but even if we do say that they were turned to ash, they weren't even close to 10 metres away. One calc has already tried to do it with a more conservative distance, coming out at around 17 Tons of TNT, but even this is a bit of a highball. Looking at the next panel, there are bodies even closer than the other calc guessed. I tried my hand at calculating it just to show (Using Uvo's height of 2.58 metres) and got it to around 4.67 Tons of TNT when using the same formula.

What now?​

When it comes to strength calculations there actually are a few feats and calculations that are still perfectly fine for characters and you could always keep the Uvogin feat, even though it is quite a bit weaker.

Silva Kills Cheetu
This feat has been calced once before at around 23 Tons of TNT, though there seemed to be some disagreements on both the method and also scaling from Zeno's height instead of maybe Silva himself. It should still come out at around low City Block or Large Building+ either way.

Chrollo's Sun and Moon:
Chrollo's final explosion attack against Hisoka was also calced at around 22 Tons of TNT here, this would serve as somewhat of a cap for Hisoka tier characters, since he technically did survive the explosion point blank. But even here there seems to be some debate as to its validity, though I can't seem to find a consensus on it, so do with that what you will.

Uvogin's Big Bang Impact:
The most destructive attack Uvogin ever did, his Big Bang Impact, was calced at 47 and 57 Tons of TNT. Though I heavily disagree with the assumption that Uvo was not operating at full power, as the situation wasn't at all similar to his 1v1 with Kurapika. This would work as a scaling tool, since Kurapika easily handled a punch from 20% Uvogin who would be around 9.4 or 11.4 Tons of TNT depending on which version of the original calc you use, so either Large Building+ or Low City Block, perfectly consistant with the other feats in the series.

Extra:
I also have a vague memory of someone calculating Gon's Greed Island Jajanken that shook a tree and got it to around Large Building Level, which would scale to characters like Chimera Ant Arc Killua who oneshot Rammot, who previously survived a Jajanken + Thunderbolt combo from them both.

 

[FuriousFieryFist]

Recently finished this masterpiece of a series and I agree that the ap scaling has been a little off on the profiles. The bombadier ant calculation shouldn't even be used in the first place as it's not even a proper explosion but a release of boiling hot liquid in the direction of killua; In fact the trees directly behind killua are still intact in the manga when it shows the aftermath of this supposedly hundred meter wide explosion. The sun and moon explosion is also pretty off as just by looking at the panel you can see the hole made is not pulverized at all. This is compounded by the fact that the explosion didn't even completely reach Hisoka as it was explained that the puppets cushioned the blow and he instead suffocated. I'm not 100% sure how the bazooka explosion calculation is being determined but you are indeed correct that assuming that it vaporized every body in the radius without any proof is pretty odd. In fact I would say it's more likely that the bazooka just launched the bodies away from Uvogin after it impacted him. The manga seems to imply this by their being smoke trails coming out the back of the explosion. There are still quite a few other feats in the manga that to my knowledge haven't been calculated but the results of which seem to line up way more with the building to low city block level results your proposing. They are:

• Silva's destruction orbs destroying a large section of a opera hall and seemingly shaking the entire skyscraper they are in
• Greed Island Gon destroys a decent chunk of ground in order to trap Genthru
• Razor completely destroying a small boat with one of his spikes
• Neteros first hand pulverizing a large portion of ground
• Feitan heating a large area up to the point of ignition ( Good ole thermodynamics)
• Bonelenov's Jupiter ( I think this one has actually already been done)
• The super bazooka was mentioned to be able to one-shot a tank so whatever that is
• Gon violently fragments a large rock during Greed Island training

I believe those are all the major destructive feats in the series. What do you think?

 

[CountGracula]

I did manage to find a calculation for Silva's Exploding Orbs by a guy outside of the wiki, who got it to just over 2 Tons or baseline Large Building Level, considering both Zeno and Chrollo survived it that's already quite good, since Chrollo has like the worst Enhancment affinity of any high tier.

Gon's Jajanken vs Genthru however probably wouldn't be that impressive. The anime made it seem like there was rock there, with them having Gon crack the ground, but in the manga it was just grass over some wooden pillars, so probably not worth calculating.

I don't have a calculation on Razor's spike, but just visually it would have to be between Small Building to Building for sure, maybe even higher.

Feitan's feat seems impressive, but Im not too knowledgable about stuff like that.

Yeah Jupiter has to calculations here, one at about 10 Tons and another at around 43 Tons, both are somewhat consistant with the other values I've mentioned, but Im not sure as to which one is currently accepted, if they were even accepted at all

As for Gon shattering a rock during training, that was actually calculated (altough it was the animes depiction) at between Small Building and Building, so yeah that one is also quite good.

It's honestly quite consistent, which I really like. Verses where every character just depend on one high end calc always kind of bug me for some reason.

 

[Just_Butchering]

Bump

 

[Yasuda_144]

This seems pretty reasonable to me, although I would say it makes more sense to assume Uvogin was at 20% the whole time until he fought Kurapika; Emperor Time Kurapika actually had problems dealing any significant damage to Uvo at 50%, whereas Rabid Dog could outright bite chunks off his shoulder and Worm could throw a punch that Uvo himself remarked was "effective", albeit he literally broke his hand in order to do so. Considering the Shadow Beasts as a whole were wary of all the Troupe members, including the likes of Pakunoda who's like Yorknew Gon and Killua level physically and never displayed any offensive Nen abilities, downscaling them from a full power Uvo would cause all kinds of contradictions. On the other hand though, Big Back Impact is a Ko punch so it's about 10x above a standard Nen enhanced strike; it's actually surprisingly consistent with the 4.6 ton bazooka that he tanked with minor injuries.

Imo the best feat to use as a bedrock for the scaling would be the Silva crater feat. It's the only 8-B feat in the verse that isn't a Hatsu that's explicitly far above its user's physicals, and the various other feats can serve as support for it.

 

[Yasuda_144]

Bump

 

[Yasuda_144]

Actually, one additional thing I have to note is that the Ryu and Ko multipliers seem kinda sus to me tbh. Ko not so much because there's additional statements and implications of it being 10x a regular punch, but aside from Ryu being able to mitigate Ko to an extent, there's not that much evidence to say that the percentages of Aura Ryu manipulates actually scale linearly.

For example, during Gon's fight with Genthru, the latter was forced to endure a direct front kick to the face from a Gon who was using 70% of his aura, which Genthru himself was down to a mere 10% for the entire rest of his body besides his arms. This also caught him completely off guard, so there's no way that he could have focused all 10% on his chin to defend himself. So basically, if you take the percentages at face value Gon had a 7x multiplier while Genthru was at an eighth of his base durability (given that he had 10% of his aura left over compared to the usual 80%). And yet, while Genthru was significantly injured by that attack and even was left near-completely stunned for a few seconds following it, he quickly regained his balance and ultimately continued fighting like it never even happened.

Obviously, Genthru was far stronger physically than Gon at this point but it makes absolutely no sense for the power gap to be so severe that an effective 56x multiplier on Gon's side didn't instantly end the fight. Hell, Genthru was completely unable to defend against Jajanken even when he was fully able to anticipate it and had all of his aura available for use.

It's more likely to me that Togashi simply didn't realize how significant the percentages involved actually are, because power differences of 10x or more are otherwise consistently portrayed as unfathomable, and in general manyfold differences aren't required for characters to completely overpower one another in hand to hand combat. Hell, Kurapika fighting Uvogin, probably the second strongest living human in terms of physical strength, who was using 50% of his power wasn't treated as an insane feat, and Kurapika wouldn't be untouchable by the other Troupe members without Chain Jail being a thing.

Imo, characters who can use those techniques should just be listed as "X level, higher with Ryu, at most [X times 10] with Ko / any abilities that scale similarly to Ko (ie being portrayed as something that can't be taken head on by comparable or superior opponents, even with the use of Ryu.

 

[FuriousFieryFist]

Can we perhaps discuss that in another crt? Right now I feel the priority should be on finding new scaling values for the pointed out flawed calculations and applying them, which is already a massive revision in itself.

Honestly, I feel like nearly all the profiles should be deleted and be rebuilt from the ground up with how outdated and basic they are. For example most don't have scans or sources for basically anything.

 

[Yasuda_144]

Agreed that the HxH profiles right now are total ass in just about every way. Not so sure about straight up deleting everything though, although for some of the less relevant characters that might have to be a thing if no one's willing to put in the work to bring them up to par.

 

[FuriousFieryFist]

Agreed that the HxH profiles right now are total ass in just about every way. Not so sure about straight up deleting everything though, although for some of the less relevant characters that might have to be a thing if no one's willing to put in the work to bring them up to par.

Of course the main profiles like Gon, Killua, Meruem should stay but the other should be deleted in order to start anew. I'm pretty sure we can archive the deleted pages so they can serve as a basis for new ones. Plus no one even makes matches with most of the characters besides the main cast, and the top tiers, so honestly it would help to de-bloat the pages.

 

[FuriousFieryFist]

Bump. Can a calculation team member give their two cents?

 

[Yasuda_144]

Apparently the Silva crater feat was re-calced in the initial verse-wide overhaul CRT that gave us the current ratings, and if you use Silva himself as opposed to Zeno to scale the crater the results are like, 8-C to very low High 8-C. The "vaporized corpses" also more than likely aren't even a thing, we see tons of corpses within the explosion radius in shots that take place after the explosion. It's probably just an artistic oversight that they weren't present in that one panel. The Hisoka feat is also not worth much besides support given a) he was grievously maimed by it and b) it's stated that the bodies were providing a kind of cushion against the explosion anyway. So as of right now, I don't think we actually have any basis for 8-B physicals besides downscaling Uvo to 1/10th of his 100% Big Bang Impact. Ngl, I'm actually surprised that there's that little support for it.

 

[FuriousFieryFist]

Apparently the Silva crater feat was re-calced in the initial verse-wide overhaul CRT that gave us the current ratings, and if you use Silva himself as opposed to Zeno to scale the crater the results are like, 8-C to very low High 8-C. The "vaporized corpses" also more than likely aren't even a thing, we see tons of corpses within the explosion radius in shots that take place after the explosion. It's probably just an artistic oversight that they weren't present in that one panel. The Hisoka feat is also not worth much besides support given a) he was grievously maimed by it and b) it's stated that the bodies were providing a kind of cushion against the explosion anyway. So as of right now, I don't think we actually have any basis for 8-B physicals besides downscaling Uvo to 1/10th of his 100% Big Bang Impact. Ngl, I'm actually surprised that there's that little support for it.

The thing is the explosion doesn't explode omnidirectionally from uvogin once it hits him. Instead it spreads out behind him in a sort of cone shape. If you look at the placement if the dead bodies in the panels it is clear and consistent that they're are no bodies behind or near uvogin in the immediate aftermath. So vaporization could still be valid, but it could also just be the bazooka launched their bodies away, so I am in agreement overall. Also the Silva crater feat being 8-C/High 8-C slots nicely into the overall scaling.

 

[Yasuda_144]

One thing I do wanna ask is if there's any issues with the High 7-C calc that the god tiers currently scale to. With current upscaling standards I'm pretty sure Meruem and Adult Gon are gonna lose their + either way though. The Meruem Rage Blast calc was also redone to be City level+ rather than Mountain level so post-Rose Meruem at least is gonna have his AP revised for sure.

 

[FuriousFieryFist]

In all honesty the tier 7 stuff needs to be nuked to only scaling to specific attacks. It's pretty clear that Youpi's rage blast (Which by association means Meruem's blast) is not something done by a casual punch and instead relies on them focusing their aura in a specific way much like Gon's jajanken. So I think high tier 8 is where the god tiers will end up scaling which seems about right.

 

[Yasuda_144]

Eh, I'm not that sure about it tbh. I do agree that Youpi doesn't directly scale to his but it's strongly implied that pre-rose Meruem is above everything the Royal Guards had in their arsenal, and his Rage Blast was insanely casual, so at the very least his basic physicals would scale to 1/10th of it (since a regular punch uses 10% of someone's maximum aura output as a general rule). There's also Netero's Zero Hand which Meruem tanked directly with only minor injuries which I'm pretty sure was calced at about 7-C.

 

[FuriousFieryFist]

I'm fine with scaling him to the zero hand but any form of percentage scaling based off the rage blast I don't agree with. We see extremely skilled nen users can concentrate more than just 10x their normal power into their attacks with the use of conditions and rules. Case and point Netero's zero hand which was every drop of aura in his body funneled into one blast, and Gon's jajanken which shot his aura up by more than 10x by just saying words while initiating a Ko punch.

 

[Yasuda_144]

Conditions and vows give an advantage proportional to the disadvantage they bring though. Netero's Zero Hand leaves him completely and utterly helpless should his foe survive it, and Gon's Jajanken requires him to stand still for several seconds in the middle of a fight, a requirement so debilitating that Knuckle straight up called the ability useless at first glance. Meruem literally does nothing when he uses Rage Blast besides just fire an energy blast, contrary to Youpi having both an activation requirement and a cooldown period. That being said given how insane his capabilities are as a whole and the fact that his version of Rage Blast is far above Youpi's in every regard I guess I could see it being above Ko.

 

[FuriousFieryFist]

He has to turn his entire arm into an aura cannon in order to initiate the attack and it is an exact copy of Youpi's aura cannon which is specifically an evolved version of Youpi's rage explosion. Simply scaling it to a Ko attack without any evidence supporting it doesn't seem to be the most sound scaling to me. That can be discussed later though, I just want this thread to gain traction and be acknowledged as of right now.

 

[Kenboxx]

Conditions and vows give an advantage proportional to the disadvantage they bring though. Netero's Zero Hand leaves him completely and utterly helpless should his foe survive it, and Gon's Jajanken requires him to stand still for several seconds in the middle of a fight, a requirement so debilitating that Knuckle straight up called the ability useless at first glance. Meruem literally does nothing when he uses Rage Blast besides just fire an energy blast, contrary to Youpi having both an activation requirement and a cooldown period. That being said given how insane his capabilities are as a whole and the fact that his version of Rage Blast is far above Youpi's in every regard I guess I could see it being above Ko.

Gon does not have to stand still while doing the chant he can move while doing it

The reason why Knuckle thought it was useless is because Ko leaves him with know aura to defend himself and it takes several secs to finish the attack but Gon proved him wrong by using feints

I also think that if we are going to redo most of the pages then for Pitou post death state she should not get any scaling from cutting Gon san arm off since he was not using aura to defend himself and right after losing his arm he easily overpowered her and punch a whole through her chest characters in hxh durability can change depend on how they use aura to defend Meruem was bleeding after taking Netero first hand but used Ren when Netero tried to attack with 3rd hand and took know damage from that point on until Netero used zero

I don't think she would have been able to do anything to Gon san if he was using Ken since Gon is clearly way above her in aura output

 

[Yasuda_144]

I forgot that he can move while using it, but that's still several seconds he has to spend with zero Aura protection whereas an ordinary use of Ko lasts as little as the user's precision allows it to. On top of that it's an incredibly telegraphed technique, which Gon actually uses to his advantage against Knuckle in their final battle but is still a downside in and of itself in most cases. Given that risk amplifies an ability's power as a whole it makes sense why Jajanken is way stronger than a regular Ko punch besides it just having a name greatly increasing its Aura output (which iirc isn't really shown in any other instance).

I do agree that Corpse Puppet Pitou scaling to Adult Gon is a bit questionable. Given post-mortem Nen it's not impossible but we don't really have a clear implication Gon was using Aura to defend himself, yeah.

 

[FuriousFieryFist]

I mean post-mortem nen on a royal guard tier opponent is definitely enough to make me believe she could have closed the gap in power on an off-guard Gon. Gon did the same thing but to a lesser degree to become a greater than Meruem level threat (Though his was greater due to his strength of will). Also to just assume Gon wasn't using aura at all in that moment is pretty absurd, Ten perhaps but no aura at all? Unlikely.

 

[Kenboxx]

I mean post-mortem nen on a royal guard tier opponent is definitely enough to make me believe she could have closed the gap in power on an off-guard Gon. Gon did the same thing but to a lesser degree to become a greater than Meruem level threat (Though his was greater due to his strength of will). Also to just assume Gon wasn't using aura at all in that moment is pretty absurd, Ken perhaps but no aura at all? Unlikely.

Pitou did not close the gap in power with the amp she got from post mortem nen this is clearly shown when Gon was easily able to react to Pitou attack after losing his arm and pinned her down by punching a hole through her chest with his severed arm

Gon is not using aura to defend himself in this scene

He has his back turned is crying and know aura is around him during every panel before this Togashi draw Gon san with a huge about of aura around him if Pitou really scaled to Gon san in anyway then it would have been a very close fight but that not what happened after Killua pushed Gon out of the way and Gon started to think clearly again he easily overpowered her nen users who have similar levels of output will have a hard to damaging each other but Gon san can put holes through post mortem Pitou without even using his abilities since he's not using a nen ability with condition to amp himself when he punch a hole through her he's defense should scale to that

 

[Raiden38]

Bump

 

[Raiden38]

Bump

 

[Xaropadob3ta]

I agree with the topic.
I also noticed that Youp's explosion is actually wrong too.
See it's soil, we can even see trees planted throughout the kingdom, I remember a member stating vaporization for soils as 45% of the volume rock and something like 20% water, If I'm not mistaken.
But that can probably be made up for along with the building he also blew up.

 

[Yasuda_144]

13 meters of depth for soil seems like a bit of a stretch though, the majority of it is probably still rock. Recalc might be a good idea but either way I doubt the value will change that much.

 

[Xaropadob3ta]

13 meters of depth for soil seems like a bit of a stretch though, the majority of it is probably still rock. Recalc might be a good idea but either way I doubt the value will change that much.

I don't think so, in an accepted calculation they are putting 7.5 meters for soil in a city, maybe the same would apply here...
Overall, I think the calculation would be downgraded to something like 7-C...

 

[FuriousFieryFist]

It doesn't scale to his physicals anyway due to the nature of the attack.

 

[Xaropadob3ta]

It doesn't scale to his physicals anyway due to the nature of the attack.

About Youpi, the multiplier system will change a lot...
By the way, doesn't Killua level up to Youp? Despite there being a slight statement that they don't even have 1/10 to his power (which I don't know if that applies to Killua)

 

[Yasuda_144]

Killua technically downscales from Youpi in Godspeed mode but the "less than a tenth of my strength" statement unambiguously applies to him since Youpi's saying it while Killua is knocking his ass around. Given that there's unfortunately no basis for giving him any fraction of Youpi's physicals, we know for a fact that it's not even a tenth.

As for Rage Blast scaling, I think that in a roundabout way Youpi and Pitou still downscale from it, just by a gargantuan amount that's hard to quantify. Meruem even pre-Rose is implied to be effectively invincible to any Nen ability that relies on raw power; Zero Hand is the strongest attack of someone who's reached the pinnacle of human potential and only wondered if he'd lose to someone like Pitou yet it only dealt Meruem moderate damage. Rage Blast would probably injure him even less, yet the Bodhisattva's ordinary blows still dealt microscopic damage to him that gradually accumulated to minor internal damage over thousands of strikes. The same Bodhisattva that only scuffed the likes of Pitou, and Youpi is strongly implied to be physically stronger than them.

That being said it's really hard to give an AP rating to the Bodhisattva given that besides
Lifting Strength related feats (HxH usually treats striking and lifting strength as mostly prortional but the Bodhisattva is seemingly an exception) it does the closest possible thing to nothing to Meruem; so for Pitou and Youpi it does little for their scaling.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Looks okay, I agree with the OP

 

[Xaropadob3ta]

Killua technically downscales from Youpi in Godspeed mode but the "less than a tenth of my strength" statement unambiguously applies to him since Youpi's saying it while Killua is knocking his ass around. Given that Thereza unfortunately no basis for giving him any fraction of Youpi's physicals, we know for a fact that it's not even a tenth.

Killua withstood a blast from Gon, who is currently 10x higher than Youpi, Couldn't that help he?

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Isn't there a statement that says Pitou is the second strongest Chimera Ant right behind Meruem?

 

[Raiden38]

Bump

 

[Qawsedf234]

OP looks alright just reading through it.

 

[Raiden38]

Bump

 

[Raiden38]

Bump

 

[Raiden38]

Bump

 

[Raiden38]

Bump